Author Topic: Four Truck Shay  (Read 17818 times)

Offline Bernd

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Four Truck Shay
« on: June 18, 2011, 09:02:39 PM »
Ok Mr. Squire. Get out your  :poke: and have at it.  :lol:

Believe it or not this is not a new project. I acutally started this project way before MadModder was born. Approximatley 8 years ago I ran across a very nice web site about an Ohioian that was building a Shay. Now I've always liked those engines having riden several times behind the ones at Cass Mountain. I wanted to build one, plus I was a member of a live steam club at that time.

So here is the sight of Nelson's Locomotive Works, Nelson Riedel is the owner. He has a very informative web site on building a 3 thruck Shay. He also designed and had castings made for a Heiseler. I'm going to refer to his site alot as I work on this project.

So 8 years ago I ordered the engine kit, plus a full set of plans from Ken Schoerder. I started the project with getting the trucks for the tender made first. I got as far as getting the bar stock cut for one truck and ran out of steam. Why I don't recall. But now that I have some bigger machines, Logan 10" lathe and a Bridgeport, plus more tooling and the house is is 85 to 90 percent finished and I'm not getting any younger I figured I better start.

So as I get one part of this project finish I'll post it here. It will be written up a bit more in detail at my web site than here. To veiw the site follow this link -> Four Truck Shay

Here are a couple of pics.

This basically is what my 4 truck Shay will look like, but minus the cow catcher and ballon stack.



Here's a picture of what a Ken Schoerder Shay looks like. That's a 3 truck Shay.



One truck of the Shay.



The 3 cylinder engine.



These are the beautiful castings I already have.



So I've used todays date as a restarting point for this project.

Bernd
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Offline metalmad

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2011, 02:25:14 AM »
I'll be watching Mate
A Steam engine is on my list  :thumbup:
Pete
A little bit every day, sometimes the same little bit!

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2011, 03:43:00 AM »
Hi Bern

Good to here your back in the shop  :thumbup:,,,,,,,,,, now thats some loco  :drool: ,,,,,,,,,, mmmmmmm nice  :)


Rob

Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2011, 07:12:51 PM »
As I said it's going to be slow going. You guys with your projects has got me motivated to do this project. I've learned from the members slow and easy. If the part doesn't work out, make another until it's right.

Was going to due some today but the wife kept me busy strawberry picking and I was in charge of the pressure cooker. Canned 34 quarts. They realy taste great in the winter.

Forcast for this week is at least for 2 or 3 days of rain. Plan on spending some time in the shop then.  :ddb:

Bernd
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 07:52:52 PM »
Ok Mr. Squire. Get out your  :poke: and have at it.  :lol:

Believe it or not this is not a new project. I acutally started this project way before MadModder was born. Approximatley 8 years ago I .....
.
.
.
So I've used todays date as a restarting point for this project.

Bernd

 :palm: I didn't miss this post Bernd but I have to admit to procrastination and old timers disease. I was out Saturday night and saw your post when I got in at 2:00 AM but figured I would wait until Sunday AM to answer. I was invited out for father's day with my daughter and figured to do it when I got home. You know how it is when you procrastinate Bernd.  :poke: :poke: You have to be kicked into action.

Anyway, this looks like a nice ambitious project. Just having a look at those trucks and the fact that there are 4 of them. You will be able to start your own little production line. How ambitious are you going to get? Are you going to cut your own gears? Inquiring minds want to know.  :D :D

I will allow you sufficient time for canning preserves as long as you can more than you eat. Now your making me hungry. Just don't blow up the cooking pot, Wouldn't want you to have jam on your face.  :lol: :lol:

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 06:33:20 AM »
Ok Don will allow you this one.

Spent Sunday afternoon with daughter and son-in-law. Great day.  :ddb:

It is an ambitious project and I've already planned on making some fixtures to help with multiple setup to do parts for the trucks. As far as the gears go. I wouldn't mind trying to cut them but I think I'm going to buy. They can be purchased from Boston Gear.

So give me a poke once in a while when I seem to have run out of steam (pun intended). I might just be procrastinating and will need a poke in the back side to get going again.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 10:57:37 PM »
It's Wendsday and it was raining this morning so I got busy cutting up the rest of the raw bar stock so I can mass produce truck parts. Below is a picture of all the cut stock. It now needs to go into the fixture I made Wendsday afternoon when it got hot and humid. It's still nice and cool in the basement workshop.

All the stock cut to size and bundled up so I hopefuly don't loose any of them.



The fixture took 2 days. I wanted to make sure that the Loctite © had set. First pic here is of the 3 pieces of aluminum.



The parts screwed together with the thread fastener.



The fixture ready for use.



If you want to see the whole procedure of how I made the fixture then follow the Truck Fixture Link

I'm hoping it rains again tommorow so I can work on the first set of bars to the trucks.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 11:08:02 AM »
A qucik  :update: before Don Squire  :poke: me.   :lol:  :lol:

Just got a message from Ken Schroeder that my castings for the trucks are on their way here and that I should have them by this coming Monday.

Right now I'm enjoying a weeks vacation at the cottage in the 1000 Islands. Was calm enough today to run the nitro speed boat untill I found that the high end jet was resetting itself. Need to get a new "O" ring. Been playing with the Alexandra steam boat Dad built a few years ago. Right now I've got to get the propane tank filled so I can get up steam.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 02:20:29 PM »
I've got my castings for the trucks. They were delivered while I was on vacation.
Below is a picture of the castings plus springs Ken Schroeder provides. Now I'm hoping for some rainy weather and an early winter. "NOT"  :doh:   :lol:  :lol:



Almost have all the barstock cut to length and the holes drilled. Next time I get a few minutes in the shop I can finish up the last few parts.

Bernd
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Offline arnoldb

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 02:30:59 PM »
Looks good Bernd - those are some good-quality looking castings :thumbup:

 :scratch: What size is your Shay ?

Regards, Arnold

Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2011, 06:38:16 PM »
Looks good Bernd - those are some good-quality looking castings :thumbup:

 :scratch: What size is your Shay ?

Regards, Arnold

I was surprised to when I had recieved the engine casting kit 8 years ago. The truck castings are of the same quality.
Can't wait to start working on them.

The Shay is a 1 1/2" scale with a track width of 7 1/4".

Bernd
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Rob.Wilson

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 12:11:49 AM »


The Shay is a 1 1/2" scale with a track width of 7 1/4".

Bernd


 :bugeye: Nice and BIG  Bern  :thumbup:

Those castings look crackin  :dremel:


Rob

Offline CallMeAl

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2011, 03:34:38 PM »
I'm always impressed by the members that take on such detailed complex projects.  I enjoy the skill and patience it takes to complete full blown locomotive.  Maybe some day i might try it myself or something like it.  First I need to work on the patience part.

This is going to be a treat to follow your progress.

Al
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »
Al,

That's why it took 8 years from when I first started. I had to learn patience too. I got that from watching the memebers here with their projects. Also I've learned to give up some of the other projects that I wanted to do.

It's slow going right now. I'm working on drilling all the holes in the truck bar stock. No sense wasting forum space on that right now.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2011, 08:02:29 PM »
 :update:

The drilling of the holes in all the bar stock is complete. Next will be a jig to help make the bend for the one part that looks like a "V" with wings on it.

But first I've got two projects for two other people that I need to get done.

 :update:

Bernd
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2011, 10:16:19 PM »
Bernd

What! Only one week on the job and already you are being tempted by others. Must say, you have been doing a fine job so far. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Just because I'm not replying doesn't mean I'm not watching.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hope you are having fun at the river.

Cheers  :beer:

Don
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2011, 07:36:01 PM »
 :update:

Got a bit more done on the trucks. I said this was going to be a slow build. ::)

I've got all the holes drilled in the bar stock for the two trucks that will go under the tender frame. There are to many holes to count, plus I need to tap about half of them. I'm at the point now were I will need to do some bending of one part.

Here are some progress pictures to look at. Not much but...... Any way. The first picture shows marking the place on one side were the archbar needs to be cut and bent. I did this on the fixture I made to drill all the holes. I just zeroed in the one end and ran a pointed scribe were the cut needs to be made, then turned the part 180° and scribed the second line. This way the bends will come out even from either end. More on why they are cut and how much later.



All four are scribed.



Now here comes the hard part. Taking one of this straight bars and........



....turning it into something that looks like a "V".



Looks like another jig or fixture is in order here. That'll be next.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2011, 05:43:20 PM »
Another  :update:

I have finally figured out how I was going to make the bending jig for the lower archbar of the truck. This is the only bar that needs to be bent, but also needs some accuracy to the finished product. So a jig was in order. I made it out of aluminum because I have lots of it, plus it will need some welding.

Here's how I went about it. I took the dimensions from the print and drew up the basic shape on AutoSketch. I added the dimensions I needed so I could get and idea of how it was going to fit on the rotary table. Each side of jig is 10.5° from the center line. Then up from the center line to the bottom of the jig is 4.128" minus half of the cutter which has a dia. of .250". The 1.530" dimension will come out automatically when the sides get cut on a 10.5° angle.



Next problem to be solved was how to mount it on the rotary table. I used a piece of 3/4" MDF secured to the rotary table.



Here's the template placed on the MDF to see how the jig will fit. Looking good so far.



Next the rotab was placed on the Bridgeport mill and zeroed in.



Here's my first error I made. Drilled the hold down holes to close to the bottom.  :palm:  :doh:



So another piece of stock was cut and the holes relocated. I mounted the messed up plate on top so I could use it as a scrap piece to see if I indexed the table right. Glad I did because I made two more minor errors as I went along. :coffee: Anyway, I set the 4.003" dimension to the y-axis so I could use the x-axis powerfeed. As you can see that the scrap piece did get milled a little bit.



Next I indexed the table around 90° to 270° minus 10.5° or 259.5° to cut the first leg of the angle. But I forgot something.



After I had finished the first cut at about .125" depth I turned the table to 280.5° to cut the other leg. That's when I came to me, I needed to add .125" to the "Y" axis readout on the one leg and subtract .125" from the "Y" axis on the other leg from the center line to get the 1.530" deminsion on the bottom of the jig.  :doh: Glade I had used the srcapped piece for a trial run. Once I had that done it was just a matter of a couple of passes to finish the jig.



Another shot of my error.  :hammer:



Action shot, looks like it isn't cutting.



Milling out the other side. Take notice of that bolt sticking out. :bang:



Notice it isn't sticking out any more? The clamp nut on the arbor ran into it making a pretty loud racket turning at about 700rpm. Needed to clean my pants after that.



So here they are the bad piece on the left and the good one on the right. Next it needs to be trimmed to the correct heighth.



I used a set of jo-blocks to set the veriner heigth gage and scribed a line. This set the heigth to 3.300".



This will give you and idea of how the flat bar will be bent. The bar actually needs to be laid on it's side for the bending.



There's a few more things I need to do to finish the jig. That will be the next installment.

I've also had some time to contemplate the gears that need to get used. I had sticker shock when I found out the price. Now I need 8 sets of gearing, both gear and pinion, for the four trucks. Boston gears would cost me $716.40, Martin Gears would cost $660.40 that doesn't include shipping and handleing. I am very seriously considering making my own. I'll elaborate on that though a bit more later.

That's it for now.

Bernd
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2011, 06:55:20 PM »
Hi Bernd

Looks like you have really got things on a roll. Just watch those long bolts sticking up, they can scare the ____ out of you. You don't need that kind of excitement. For the price of those gears you could probably get some nice tooling and make your own and still have saved a few bucks. You would still have the tooling left for future use as well. Take care and keep cool. Hopefully it isn't too hot in your basement shop.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 08:33:52 PM »
Hi Don,

Nice and cool in the basement. Hasn't been to bad outside latley either. Just dry that's all.

I might as well get into the gear end of it right now. After I researched the price of the gears I remembered Kozo designed and made his own gears for the Climax which has offset bevel gears. I have all three of his books. I started studying the makeing of the gears. It's quite complicated but he has made it easy by giving all the formulas and shows examples of each calculation. What I didn't know was that the same would apply to bevel gears that are on center. All you need to do is ignore the offset of the gears and you have your standard bevel gears. BTW, for you gear challenged memebers miter gears are 1 to 1 ratio, bevel gears are greater ratios, such as 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. Right now I'm pretty sure that I will be "trying" to make the gear sets.

The one interesting statement Kozo made about the gearing was that the modeler could make more accurate gears than the prototype since they had no way of figuring out the numbers for the gears or had the equipment to cut them. As a matter of fact the prototype gears were a guesstimate  when the were made. They made wooden molds and cast them till something worked. Talk about custom made gears.

Also right now there are several side tooling projects that will need to be done in order to help in the construction of this engine. One of course will be to make the gears and fixture to cut them. For once I have purpose for a project. Seems much more fun than just building something for the sake of building it.   :ddb:

Hopefully I can get this jig finished before next weekend.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2011, 06:09:39 PM »
 :update: I've finished the jig.  :beer: Pictures below.

I mounted the keystone shaped part on a piece of 1/4" aluminum plate with 6-32 screws. Used one of the archbars and fastened a fence (?) on the bottom.



Added the other four. This keeps the bar in line and hopefuly gives a some what perfect part.



Next I prepared the first bar by cutting in four places. Two on one side and two on the opposite side. Cut is about half way through. This facilitates a better bend.



Heated the part with a propane torch until red hot, but didn't quite get to red heat. I got a dull red. Going to have to use oxy/actel on the next bend.



I noticed a slight mispostioning of the second cut. One of two things, either the jig is wrong or I marked the part wrong for cutting.



Closer view of error. I checked the print and sure enough I had not removed enough of the top of the keystone part.



Looks like about a 1/4", the thickness of the bar.



And that's what is was. I had made it to long. Milled off about 1/4" and it looks better.



This looks much better. You can see the saw cut now lines up better. I just need to get the oxy/actel torch out and continue bending.




Well that's it for now. I'll post again when I get a chance to bend the rest of this bar.

Bernd
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2011, 12:32:58 PM »
:update:   Dug out the oxy/acetylene torch this morning and found that the acetylene tank was empty according to the pressure gauge, but the regulator gauge still showed pressure, so I hoped I would have enough to do at least the first archbar.

I removed some of the stops so it’s easier to get the bent bat in and out. I tested the torch on the first bend and it worked great. Nice bright cherry red heat and bent the left leg of the bar.



Next I replaced the stop on the upper right in prperation of bending that leg of the bar.



Here’s a pic of heating up the part in preparation of bending the last leg of the bar.



And there we have it. The first archbar bent in the jig. In the bending process the whole piece needed to be straightened out. I did finally get it to where it looked like it will be near perfect.
At this point I was figuring that none of the pre-drilled holes would line up with the bar that will be bolted on top of this part.



Here it is with the bar that will bolt across the top. Both have pre-drilled holes that need to line.



Here you can see that multitude of holes that need to line up, three on the right and three on the left. The two holes in the middle will hold the spring board and will be match drill to a casting.
And to my surprise the holes all lined up. I guess building this jig paid off.




That's it folks. Three more to bend. I'll post again when I start milling some of the castings.

Bernd
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2011, 02:32:30 PM »
Bernd

At first I was going to say that you are lucky to get the holes to line up like that and you should go buy a lottery ticket.  :doh: Then I realized that your not lucky but you are good. As long as you cut the bars right, drilled the holes in the right place and bent them properly they would have to line up properly. Great job.

Now the important stuff, why are you not at the river playing with the boats?  :lol: :lol:

Cheers

Don


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Offline DaveH

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2011, 02:46:49 PM »
Bernd,

A really good job. :clap: :clap: :clap:

I never doubted for a second that the holes would not line up. ::) ::) ::)

Nicely done :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
:beer:
DaveH
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Four Truck Shay
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2011, 06:46:52 PM »
Bernd

Now the important stuff, why are you not at the river playing with the boats?  :lol: :lol:

Cheers

Don




Thanks Don.

Reason is that we're, wife and I, going up every other weekend. Next weekend is the big America's Poker run. Hopefuly "MyWay" will run. His new boat was clocked at almost 200mph.

Geuss I better take some pictures to upload if he runs his boat. Better yet look here http://1000islandimages.com/10augrun1.html

Bernd
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