Author Topic: another flame eater project  (Read 15874 times)

Offline madjackghengis

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another flame eater project
« on: September 01, 2011, 01:00:26 PM »
Hi, when I built my last flame sucker, I had started with the intent of building a slightly larger version of "Poppin", but John's water cooled version was going together, and I had to try to use his version of the graphite valve setup, and so I ended up completely away from the idea, and with a cast iron cylinder and head, decided I had to try another version.
   Again, I intended to up-scale a "Poppin", but it turned out a little bit different.  I started out with the idea of turning an iron liner and shrink fitting it in an aluminum finned jacket, to see how this would affect the running, with better cooling.  I took a piece of one inch cast iron bar, turned the outside to an inch, reamed the inside to 13/16ths, with about a sixteenth of shoulder .100 in long on the head end to ensure the head locked the cylinder in place.  I have no pictures of the turning of the liner or jacket, my camera was dead at the time, so the pictures start with the cylinder pressed in the jacket and already reamed, getting ready to fit the base to a mount.





With the cylinder in a V block, centering the quill over it to use pcd for the base holes.  The V block crosses the vise bed and holds the cylinder vertical with accuracy.



center drilling the base holes



drilling through tap size for #8-32 bolts



tapping out the four base holes



milling the base square



cleaned up and ready for head bolt holes



centering the cylinder again, eight #6 head bolts



turning the flywheels, using a piece of 2.5 hot rolled, turned to a smooth finish, two blanks cut about .400 thick, drilled and reamed in place, so the bores align with the o.d.'s  They both got put in a V block and drilled and reamed for the crank pin, .750 from the mainshaft holes for an inch and a half stroke.



rather than mill out a chunk of billet, I decided to build up a frame, and have a cylinder plate across the end of it, with the plate held to the two sides with two screws, #6-32, holding each end to each side plate.



two pieces of quarter inch aluminum were cut out of an inch and a half bar, and are being milled square and parallel together



drilling and tapping the mount holes for the side plates.



side plates ready for pre-assembly and fitting of the cylinder



machining the gudeon end of the rod thin



and then the other side of it.



cleaning up the end before drilling



drilling the gudeon pin hole



the connecting rod, halfway done.



The head was already roughed out from a piece of stainless, now it is being centered for head bolt holes



using a center drill, step drilling up to size, and then counter boring with an end mill, so head bolts are below the surface when it is completed.



by the way, a picture of the completed cylinder with a fitted lapped piston in the background, the plate for the sides, and the blank head next to it.  That will have to do for today, got to clean up after the flooding and get the shop back working.  Ta ta for now, mad jack





Offline saw

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 01:27:11 PM »
Intresting project  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 05:00:34 PM by saw »
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 03:35:54 PM »
That's another 'licker off to a flying start, Jack!  :clap: :clap:

Will be quietly watching progress....  :D

It's great to see you back amongst us again!  :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 04:01:41 PM »
I've got my eye on this one Jack.

 :wave:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

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Offline doubleboost

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 04:38:58 PM »
That is some nice machining :thumbup:
Off to a flying start
Keep the pictures coming it is good to see how other people set things up
John

Offline NickG

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 06:39:06 AM »
Yep, I'll be watching too Jack nice work. ... I still have a few parts to finish my 2nd poppin, just can't get any time to do it  :doh:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 12:49:53 PM »
Thanks for all the kind comments, I will try to make this as interesting as possible as I move forward.  Having turned, cut off and reamed the flywheels, I discovered my reamer was cutting a bit over sized so I tried to use locktite to take up the mainshaft space and ended up with the wheels out of whack, and had to turn down two shafts oversized by three thousandths for a locktite press fit, while turning the shafts themselves half a thou under for the ball bearings to slide on, but it worked out well, with the crank pin hole reamed with a different reamer, on size



Now, measuring between the wheels, I've got about an extra six thousandths, so I'm making the two piece rod end out of quarter inch brass.  It is made with a tongue and groove, tightly fit, and soldered together for machining the crankpin hole, the rod end threading, and the bolt which will hold it together when complete



the first piece is milled with a slot with a 1/4 end mill, and then a couple thousandths taken from each side for clean up and smooth surfaces.



The second piece is the "tongue, which is machined to a snug fit in the slot, and the two pieces cleaned up with a file so there is no visible light to be seen between them.



Ensuring no excess end room is essential to proper bearing clearance lasting for any length of time so a fine file and care is the key here.



I've laid the two pieces on a piece of graphite square which came from a water pump, and makes a good soldering heat pad which doesn't get damaged, and cleans off nicely.  The two pieces are wiped all over with zinc chloride, particularly between faces as a good general flux.  I use SN63/Pb37, high end electronic solder as it flows the best and wicks into the smallest spaces.  It's not good for structural strength, however its wicking ability and low temperature often make is useful even in such situations, although this one is just a matter of ease.



Soldered together, I use a six inch file to remove the excess solder and to get the faces flat and parallel.  With Optivisors and a scribe, I mark the location of the crank pin hole on the solder line at the end of the tongue measured right in the middle.  This will be step drilled and reamed for the quarter inch crankpin.





The block is clamped in the mill vise, drilled, stepped up and then reamed, with a nice tight bearing as the outcome.



After that, the block is turned on its side for the clamping bolt.  This hole is tap drilled through, clearance drilled about half way through the tongue, so the threads are partially in the tongue, to secure it in place, yet allowing the "strap" which one ends up with, able to pull up tight with the cross bolt, in this case #4-40



I centered the rod end in my four jaw to drill and tap it for the rod, and to turn a taper on the blunt end of it, making it prettier since we all like pretty, right?



Cutting the taper is mainly an exercize of not cutting the jaws and stopping when it looks "pretty"



Taper turned, drilled and tapped, now time to round off the 45s on the other end.



Starting on one side, then to the other.



once both are closing in on a radius switching back and forth makes for a good looking and equal radius.  A clean up of all edges and it's ready to take back apart and see how it fits.
That about finishes it up for today, got to go start getting ready to pull out the dozen trees I lost in the hurricane, as the water drops, and I'm about to be able to get my tractor across the bridge to where the trees came down.  I expect I won't have to worry about wood for the next five or six years, heating the shop.  I lost half a dozen oaks more than seventy feet tall, half a dozen maples and a few big sycamores, and a huge Chinese elm, over a hundred feet tall and perhaps four feet in diameter.  I hate losing trees, especially big ones.  Cherrio, and thanks for watching, mad jack

Offline NickG

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 02:09:06 PM »
It really is a good method of making the big end that. I didn't bother with the soldering on my two but the outcome is better with soldering - a lot less room for error when drilling for bearing and pinch bolt.  :thumbup:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline cfellows

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 10:18:24 AM »
Nice work!  What size are the crank disks?

Chuck

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2011, 11:54:09 AM »
Well then, let's get on with another episode of the project, thanks for your input Nick, I took that design from your build log, seeing it as a good, solid and rather easy way to build a good solid big end bearing.  I would also say, if it wears loose, as they tend to in steam engines, they can be disassembled and tinned, just in the bearing area, and then scrape fitted and you have essentially a babbit bearing surface, and a few thousandths can be taken up that way.  I like their simplicity to make, and the ease which they dissassemble.



finding the end of the cylinder to determine where the main bearings should go, using a wiggler on the back side of the head.  I use stainless for the heads of these because it does a very bad job conducting heat, and since the flame hits the head first it is good for it to wait until it's in the cylinder before it cools.  Someone, I believe maybe Nick, said turning a taper in the port leaving almost a knife edge for a lip is recomended in the "Poppin" plans, for the same reason.  It is rational and logical, and the smaller the engine, the more important the losses are so every little bit helps.  I have also turned the heads a bit larger in diameter than the cylinders so they reflect the flame away from the cylinder, and polish their face well on some paper, working up to 600 lapping it on a surface plate.  It makes a good seal, and I suspect reduces the temp a bit, but no way of easily measuring without a lab.



With the con rod made out of 3/16ths key stock I'm using a four jaw to turn it down for a #8-32 thread to fit into the brass "big end" previously just tapped.  I had to turn a taper in the rear of the cylinder liner to clear the rod as it was touching as the wheels rotated.



Another shot of my die setup, a piece of hex cold rolled, with five eighths bored one end, three quarter the other, and reamed through with half an inch.  Four set screws to hold each die in place and a fuel pump rod from a chevy, which is tool steel, hardened and dead on .500, to clamp in the tailstock chuck.  The dies sit flush and square with the bore, the four screws allow good adjustment, and I get good straight threads usually, wish I could say I made it, but it came from the kit of a man long gone and his son with white hair before I got to buy it from him.



with all the other parts where they were, it was time to find the main bearing position, you can either use math or judgment, but the rod has to clear the bottom end of the cylinder as the crank turns.  Having drilled quarter inch holes where the mains should go, I put it on the bench to consider how to set up the valve arrangement.  After several hours of un-productive consideration, and running into some interferance between bolts, I decided I didn't like how it looked, or even how it could look, and started looking around the shop for inspiration.  I noticed a couple of forgings from a lawn mower engine, rods which move the counter-weight reducing engine vibration.  After wiping them off with a rag, the engine having tossed its rod out, I decided they had to be the frame as they looked right, unlike what I'd already made.



They are matched forgings of aluminum, the large circle is about 2.200 and the small hole is .480 they need a home, as their last one broke open, and they look like engine parts, what more could a fellow ask for?  I took a scrap piece of 2.5 steel bar, turned a shoulder to take the big holes, found a bit of distributer shaft which was a push fit in the little end, then clamped the pair on the jig on my mill table, and using the wiggler, lined the centers of the two holes up so I could get the cylinder base mount holes in perfect alignment.



with this, now I have to make the new cylinder base, setting it up for the four cylinder holes and the four frame bolt holes in the edges.  The plate will also be scalloped on the sides for bling purposes.



with this done, the next step is to bore the small holes to hold the main bearings.  The forgings are almost half an in thick, so I'm boring only .190 deep, the thickness of the shielded bearings.




centering the hole for boring



boring the hole



boring the second side



finishing to size, frames ready for the next step



with the bearings fit on shafts an extra cam from my last engine, testing the fit of the frame and setting up end play for the mains



Another shot of the partial engine, ready for valve train work



in this position I see a way to run the valve, I just need to mill that fancy curve so the inside ends of the frame mounting holes are exposed, and a shaft matching the i.d. of the tap drill will pivot between the two mount bolts, which can establish fixed end play.









a series of shots of the big end of the rod completed and fit to the crank pin



the rough assembly with the cylinder plate milled for the valve shaft, almost just like in the "Poppin", just slightly different.



I measured the distance between the mount bolt ends, turned a shaft to match the tap drilled holes, and with the intent of having both ends of the valve gear 180 apart, I clamped the shaft in the vise, centered over it, and drilled and tapped two holes for the two levers at #0-80.



Since I changed my frame idea, I had to make a new con rod, to match new dimensions.



With the valve shaft in place, it is easy to take some 1/16th drill rod, thread both ends for a valve rod, to carry a .006 in piece of feeler gauge, and thread one end of the leftover drill rod, and watch the valve movement with the cam pushing merely against the drill rod, bent to bear on the aluminum bronze cam.  It worked so well I decided to make a judicious cut, then carefully bend the end of the rod around a piece of shaft, and have a round end of rod bearing directly on the cam, and in setting the timing, found the cam fits well with this arrangement, and is a very light and easily moved valve set up.

I kind of sort of want to put this engine in some sort of vehicle maybe, so while it is complete except for mounts, I found some scrap pieces of stainless with a bend, and cut mounts out of it, for it to stand on for now.



Feet straight up, resting



lying on its back, you can see the loop which is the cam follower



on it's side, showing all.

Well, got to get to work, somehow I didn't get a shot of it on its feet, but I'll be posting a video tonight if I get the chance.  Thanks for looking, hope you enjoy it as much as I do.  cheers,  :beer:  mad jack

Offline arnoldb

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 02:44:56 PM »
 :clap: :clap: Seriously good going there Jack; looks great  :thumbup:

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline saw

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 07:15:49 PM »
Good work  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2011, 11:17:16 AM »
Hi all, thanks for all the commentary, Chuck, the flywheels are about 2.450 or so, just skimmed the outside of some hot rolled 2.5 stock to clean up, and faced, reamed, and cut off three, having forgotten to skim the outside of the first one.  One wheel is blue because my second main shaft was turned, with the end oversize because of the oversided hole, but when I pressed it in, with 680 locktite, I hesitated a moment, it hardened with about .100 left to go, and when I pushed it home the shaft went squiggly, so I had to torch it to break the loctite and make and press in a new shaft, no hesitation this time.



Here is the first firing of the engine, using the burner from my Duclos "flame sucker".

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2011, 05:51:10 PM »

First try, and.......It's a runner!!   :D

There will be great improvements to come. Blummin well done Jack!  :clap: :clap:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline doubleboost

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2011, 05:55:16 PM »
Very well done :thumbup: :thumbup:
Nice to see a file being put to good use
John

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2011, 06:04:55 PM »
It really is a good method of making the big end that. I didn't bother with the soldering on my two but the outcome is better with soldering - a lot less room for error when drilling for bearing and pinch bolt.  :thumbup:
I have to say Nick, that's one of the nicer rod ends to make and to hold up well with time.  I like the tightness of it when it first fits, it shows it will work in, and still be a good snug bearing fit.  The soldering is just the icing, but it sure does the trick. jack

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2011, 06:48:23 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out this video posting thing, I reckon most of you'all know you can click on the pic and see it, but I ought to be able to figure out how to post one like the rest of the boys seem to do so well.



Here's her second run, I think her name is going to be "Vlad the inhaler", she runs up between about 350 and a bit over five hundred, a matter of messing with the cam advance.  She ran with the weight of the valve working it, but got better revs when I put a light, about .006 wire maybe eight loops spring with an end hooked around the cylinder plate, the other wrapped around the drill rod for the valve.  I'll be posting some more when she gets her own burner arrangement and particularly if she gets wheels or tracks.  I hung an extra bit of flywheel on one end temporarily and she ran up another hundred revs or so, I think she needs a bit more advance and more flywheel.  I'm thinking flywheel mass has much to do with the natural speed, and needs to be matched to bore and stroke with some logic involved.  (Should of studied that steam engine class closer and with more attention to the math) :lol: :ddb: :nrocks: cheerio, and fine times, mad jack

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2011, 02:28:45 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out this video posting thing, I reckon most of you'all know you can click on the pic and see it, but I ought to be able to figure out how to post one like the rest of the boys seem to do so well.

Very quick reply Jack! (Cos it's almost breakfast time)......  :D

Photo's on Photobucket.  Videos on Youtube.  :thumbup:

It's very hard work watching Pbucket videos, for awaiting the regular buffering......  :bang: :bang:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline NickG

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2011, 08:33:19 AM »
Nice work Jack, very nice  :thumbup: I really need to get my 2nd poppin done, nearly there, just rest of frame, burner and base to do. I haven't done a project log on it but I will put a vid up if it works!
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline DMIOM

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2011, 09:32:06 AM »
Great to see it running! so quickly and so vocally as well  :bow:


and the frame puts me in mind of some of Kenneth's robots/machines.....

Dave

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2011, 12:21:07 PM »
Thanks for the answer to the video issue, Dave, and for the compliment regarding its looks to you also, Dave.  Nick, I don't exactly plan engines but generally see them hiding in scrap parts that lay around while I'm tearing apart a machine I'm working on, or laying on my back wishing I had a lift, so I could stand and work, and when I try to deliberately set out to build one of these little engines, they go very slow, get lost, and things don't fit unless I forget about them, and then I find the engines "choose" their own fitments and running gear, and turn out the way they see themselves, sort of.  This one popped up because I got started back on the radial engine and in making the first cylinder head, I botched it really well, and this cylinder which I'd put together for another engine just decided it needed to be built.
   I think it was because I've given away all my other flame suckers as gifts, and needed one myself, Nick you might leave it on the bench and ignore it, because pretty soon it won't be ignored anymore, but will stand up and demand your attention, and maybe tell you how to do things differently.
   I'm still working on excuses not to remake the oil pump body for my radial engine, which I know I have to do, but really don't want to.  It's even got in the way of making pistons and heads, which I have the material for and I'm certainly not short of half inch aluminum for the pump body.  I've got to say, if you haven't built an engine yet, these flame eaters are a good entry way, they require a good straight cylinder and a good lapped fit with the piston, but if those are right, everything else is easy.  Now it's back to the grind, got a gun to work on, can you imagine that?  Thanks for watching, commenting, and generally acting like a club, but spread out a wee bit.  Got to go to work now.   :beer: :jaw: Cheers, mad jack

Offline arnoldb

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 05:11:15 PM »
 :clap: :clap: Great going Jack - that was a quick one!  :bow:

 :D It "Quacks" just right  :clap: - Good job!

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline lazylathe

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 08:28:44 PM »
Excellent work Jack!!!

I really love the slower running flame eaters!
Gives you a chance to see all the bits in action and not just a blur!

Andrew

Offline cfellows

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2011, 11:56:27 AM »
Nice work, Jack!  I really love the originality that goes into these engines.  Yours really stands out!

Chuck

Offline DaveH

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Re: another flame eater project
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2011, 01:49:08 PM »
Jack,

That was quite fantastic, beautifully posted and made.

 :beer:
DaveH
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)