Author Topic: Fixing Darren's lathe  (Read 122715 times)

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2009, 12:50:12 AM »
Ralph,

You mean you don't have swarf on toast for breakfast? Shame on you, it is the staple diet for machinists.

It is a shame that this topic is valid only for a specialist market, but I suppose it does show that you should never take anything at face value, and always double check if you are suspecting something out of place.

How many people have done this mod and not got the good results they were expecting, or even failure? I have shown that it isn't such a straightforwards and easy mod as everyone is raving about. It isn't a make it and bolt on job after all.

Mal has taken me off my jammie doughnut diet. I have a major blood test in just over another month, and if the diabetes nurse detects too much sugar, I will be in for a tongue lashing.

Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2009, 03:29:47 AM »
Hi John

Great Job you're certainly breathing new live into that lathe.  :ddb:

It makes you wunder how they got things that far out I think they must have finished it of by hand on a lynisher  :hammer:

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew

PS No Donuts this Tuesday then Bandit can still have his doggy chew though
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2009, 04:46:53 AM »
Stew,

The way the original 'flopabout' gibs strips were fitted, it wouldn't really matter what shape the faces would be. So really on the initial manufacture this area could have been carried out by hand, as you suggest, with a linisher, just to get rid of the casting skin.

Bandit will start to look forwards to your visits if you keep spoiling him like that. :thumbup:

John

Offline rleete

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2009, 08:20:52 AM »
You mean you don't have swarf on toast for breakfast?

No, but the wife had swarf on her foot in the breakfast nook.  I caught holy hell for that one!
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2009, 09:11:09 AM »
It Aint harf painfull when the wife gets swarf in her foot:- they beat hell out of you  :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:,

Bin there done it got the scars.

Stew

 :wave:
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2009, 06:16:43 PM »
Doesn't look like much on this one, but I was trying to get another project done at the same time.

So to get up to date.

I got the holes thru the gib holders (what a job, this metal is tough as old boots). They fitted fine, but I had a thought that maybe I could do with a bit of adjustment a little further down the line, so I elongated the holes a little, just in case.
So nothing spectacular here, just bolted on to check the fit.




Remember on the last post, where I had to knock a bit of the casting down to get everything level. I now have to alter these blocks to regain the height that I had taken off. So a quickie blue up to show where I wanted to get rid of metal, and back onto the mill with the carbide and suds. Luckily, I had left a fair amount on the blocks depth wise, so no squeeze on any dimensions yet.




Doing the pair of blocks took an age. I actually cut them to fit the casting when it was fitted on the lathe, only removing the amount that was really needed for me to get the clearance. I must have had each one on the mill about five times, removing a little at a time.
There is an extra lump to come off the front one to allow for clearance for the gear on the winding handle on the apron, but that will be a wing it job after the gibs are in.




A crappy pic here, but it shows the new blocks where they will eventually be fitted. Just a few thou clearance between the blocks and the main lathe casting.



I have some calculations to do now, to work out the angle for cutting the tapered lifting ramp. I mentioned before that I did not make the machining jig, I will be doing it in a much easier way and using the blocks themselves as the cutting jig for the gibs.

Now to do the write up of my other little project.

Bogs

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2009, 09:55:23 PM »
Awesome work....


It makes me cringe at the thought of my lathe.... it was a low dollar lathe. So I will just assume its not quite.. up to tolerence. SO I will use it for what I bought it for.... to learn with. And as I get better, I will simply start budgeting to buy a better made, and or lathe with more functions down the road. Like a gearbox, not "quick" change gears.
SPiN Racing

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2009, 10:39:05 PM »
Spin,

Over the last couple of years, the far eastern companies have really got their act together. It was a learning and financing curve that they have gone thru.

You should now find that most engineered stuff coming from the far east has really improved in quality, and the issues I am finding here should not be taken as the norm.

John

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2009, 05:56:13 PM »
Away we go again.

In the last post I had finished getting the main holders onto the lathe, on this post, I will be machining them to the correct angles to give us easy adjustment.

I have deviated slightly from the plans a little and used a few of my own measurements for the drilling of the adjusting screw holes because I will be making the adjusting screws from scratch, rather than the crappy idea they use for making them out of a crosshead screw.
I have blued up the end and marked where I need the 4mm holes to be. I have also marked where the bottom of the ramp should end up. I mark up like this as a double check, even though I have a DRO on my machine, I always do this as a safety feature.




The blocks need to be stood up truly vertical, so this is how I do it.
Shine a light onto the background and all of a sudden the gap shows up very easily.




A little light 'persuasion' and the block ends up nice and square to the table.




The edge finder is then used to get the edges, and from those, the centre point of the forthcoming hole. When I centre drilled it, I just checked to see that it aligned with my scribe lines.
The tapping size hole (3.3mm diam x 20mm deep) was drilled in each one in turn and then tapped to 4mm, using plenty of high pressure tapping lubricant. I don't normally use a second cut tap, I go from first taper straight to plug (in the UK we use a three set system for tapping, I think in the US, it is only two).




So this is what I ended up with, the holes look slightly mismatched, but that is just the countersink being a little deeper on one.




This next bit was the most annoying part of the plans for me, and IMO could have been dispensed with. It is a total waste of material and resources. Plus my method will most probably give more accurate running fits and alignment.




So I will now show you how I achieved the same result without the jig.
First off, the block is 3.920" long and requires a 1 degree taper (or something close, the shallower, the better fine adjustment).
A quickie calculation (again using the triangle program), told me a lift at the correct end of 0.068" would give me a 1 deg. ramp.
That is very close to 1/16" (0.0625"). I have some 1.5mm dowel pins (0.058"), so I decided they were close enough and would use them.




Now this is where a little 'tricky dicky' comes into play. I wiped the pins on a magnet and they soon became magnetised.
So a bit of plastic tape on the table, stand the blocks on end (the correct way up) and I let the now magnetic pins rest on the tape and stick to the blocks at the same time. A spot of superglue gave them a 'permanent' temporary fix. Have a quick fag, and they could then be handled. Scrape the excess glue off the face that was going to sit on the parallel, and away we go.
BTW, the magnetic trick won't work with non ferrous items (unless you know something we don't), just use the super glue by itself.




Tapped down onto the parallel, and the tapered cutaway was gently removed on each block in turn.




This shot clearly shows the tapered ramp produced by this method.




Here are both blocks machined up, but still in the rough. They need the machining marks and jagged edges cleaning up, then they can be used as the jig for machining the gibs to the correct angle and fit.



So that is it for this post, maybe another couple will see it all completed.


Bogs
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 03:06:02 AM by bogstandard »

Offline Darren

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2009, 05:58:17 AM »
Using the glued pins to produce the tapers is inspirational, lots to learn here...like a sine bar...nice

Oh, and you didn't break a tap, on that tough steel too....I need to rethink how I'm tapping stuff.

Power tapping on the lathe goes well for me, hand tapping seems to have a 50/50 chance of success... :(
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2009, 08:13:18 AM »
Darren,

I try not to break taps down holes, it causes too much work. Not for me, but for my mate who gets them spark eroded out for me.

Everyone breaks a tap occasionally, but a lot of it can be avoided.

Most of the problem is caused by blunt taps. They are not worth resharpening, they are so cheap you should just buy new ones. I buy in bulk for the smaller taps and they are a couple of squid each. Don't even consider the rusty grotty ones you see on car boot sales, unless they are very cheap or for a one off job where buying one isn't an option. They can be dressed up with a stone so you can cut a couple of holes with them but that is about it.

If you know you have a good tap and it is still going tight, step up the drill size by a few thou, most times it will not make much difference in the fit, but will allow you to get the job done in difficult materials.

And as always, the correct lube for the job, not just plain oil if you can help it, but a correct high pressure tapping lubricant. A tin or bottle will last for years and more than pays for itself in not breaking taps.

I have added another file to the downloads section called 'Tapping drill size ranges', but it will not be available until Eric has cleared it.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2009, 01:13:39 PM »
Hi John,

Thanks for the tips,

My taps don't last long enough to go blunt  :bang:

A while ago I bought a job lot of 10 good quality 4mm tap sets (of 3) so 30 in all. I have to admit I'm breaking them at a rate of knots.... :doh:

I will try using a larger drill and I must also try some proper tapping fluid, do you think the right fluid makes all the difference?

Thanks Darren
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2009, 02:05:12 PM »
Darren,

All oils have their own properties, that is why there are so many about. Cutting oil is designed to withstand the very high pressure of the cutting action, so still leaves a film where all other oils would have dissipated completely. Without something there, you would fail completely, so even engine oil helps.

In all the work I do in a year, if I break half a dozen taps, I think I am doing something wrong. That is all due to tapping clearance and the type of cutting fluid I use.

If you want to buy a tin, I would use a ROCOL product, they are about the best ones that are generally available.

For starting out, this paste is great

http://www.mscjlindustrial.co.uk/ROC-53020B/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html

I have an account here, so I don't know if there is a min order, but if you need anything out of the ordinary, this is the place to get it from, they stock almost everything you would require.

I am just about to go out to the shop again, so expect another post later this evening.

John

Offline Bernd

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2009, 02:32:50 PM »
John,

We do use three different tpes of taps. It depends on weather we use power tapping or hand tapping. With hand tapping you would first use a taper tap, then a plug tap and then a bottom tap. If I can find the ones I have I'll post a pic of them.

I know of the sine bar method of milling tapers, but never came across your idea of setup in a machine. Only one word to describe that "brilliant".  :headbang:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Darren

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2009, 03:06:28 PM »
American
Taper, plug, bottom

UK
Taper, secondary, plug

 :D
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2009, 03:23:08 PM »
I think I need to buy some more taps!!

LOL

I have always been single pass tapping!!  HA HA HA

Never knew the three different taps were used for the same hole!

Hoookay. Need to go to the garage and add a few taps to the list in sizes I find myself using.

 :smart:
SPiN Racing

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2009, 04:06:05 PM »
Couple of tips.

[1] I use mainly metric taps but other may differ, I have one machine tap, similar to a second tap per size in an alloy block on the bench going from 3mm to 12mm in a row. at the rear in another row are drill, the ones that line up with the taps are the recommended tapping sizes with dead sizes and clearance sizes inbetween/

saves hunting and it's always in use, easy to move from bench to machine as needed.

Pic later if required.

[2] Tapping fluid, try 25% hydraulic oil or ATF mixed with 75% tricorethelene if you can get it. yes I know it's banned but no one is asking you to drink 10 gallons of the damn stuff, only use a few drops on a tap. You actually need to try this to see just how good it is.

JS.
John Stevenson

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2009, 04:31:44 PM »
There you are lads, and John does it for a living, so it must be good.

Bogs

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2009, 05:21:18 PM »
Quick question.. I have been using "Rapid Tap" as its what my friends were using.. so I went with what someone else used.
In the experience of you all, Any issues with it?
http://www.barrettdiamond.com/carbide/rapidtap.htm

Sorry to go  :offtopic:

Scott
SPiN Racing

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2009, 06:37:49 PM »
You saw last time how easy it was to get the correct taper on the holder part without the use of the jig.

So now I am going to prepare the bronze gib strip, in preparation to cutting the taper on it.

First off, down one corner of each strip I cut a very small chamfer using a 90 degree countersink bit. This is a perfectly acceptable method of doing it, as long as you don't try to remove too much material.




The reason for the chamfer is to prevent binding in the very sharp corner of the holder.




Now that I am getting close to the end, I marked the parts up so that they would be made as matched pairs, and by doing this, they will always be assembled correctly if ever they are removed.




These next four shots are concerned with a major issue I have in the way the original concept of these tapered gibs has been done, and IMHO very bad engineering practices have been used.

Let me explain a little.

The 5" long gib strips run up a tapered slope, and the only thing stopping them twisting to the side is the very small head of the adjusting screw fitting into a running fit slot. The whole gib strip could just as easily move sideways and hit the casting or jam up the whole saddle.
So I have come up with an easy fix.

From the side of the gib strip that sits against the upright side of the holder, and the part of the strip that runs against the slope facing upwards, I measured in 0.150" (half the width of the gib strip).




I then machined along the strip a slot 2mm wide x 1.5mm deep.




After that, the holding block was mounted up and I measured 0.150" in from the upright face. Then two 2mm holes were drilled on the tapered slope. The first one was just a bit further in from the end than the depth of the adjusting screw hole and another one, further up the slope, 2.5" away from the first hole. A bit of 2mm rod was stuck in the holes with high strength loctite, then each one was ground down to just below 1.5mm sticking up.
I am sorry for all the mixture of measurements, but I used what was available to hand.




After deburring the slots and the tops of the pins, I found that both jibs run perfectly up and down the slope, and there would be no chance of them slipping sideways when mounted on the lathe.




So now I was back on track.

In fact, when I first started to plan this job out, I had forseen a problem with holding the gib strips to their holders while I machined them. So I made the strip 0.005" wider than the face they were to run on, 0.305" instead of 0.300".
This is how the solution worked. The two parts were put into the vice, and everything was tapped down onto the parallel. Because the gib strip was wider than the slope, it clamped everything rigidly together in the vice.

It pays to plan ahead.

The extra 5 thou can be left where it is, it will not cause any problems in the future.




You can see on this shot how the gib strip sits up at an angle. By cutting it level on the top, I will have a perfect match between tapers, giving me a totally parallel lift on the top face.




So with a nice sharp cutter, I wacked up the speed to 1800 and taking cuts of 50 thou, knocked the jib strips down to size. The finishing cut was about 0.002".





A pair of perfectly matched holders and gib strips.
Notice that I have cut away part of the gib strip marking, that will be restamped before assembly.
Unlike in the article and plan write up, I have no problems with twisting or bending of any part. I think that is because I had clamped everything together for final machining.




This shot shows the angles produced.

Who needs a machining jig?




Here is the rear bits mounted up ready to be marked for cutting to length.




The same for the front.
Remember when I said I would make the holes in the mounting blocks a bit more adjustable. Well it was required. So when final assembly and fitting takes place, I will drill and dowel pin the holders in their final positions.
Not everything can be calculated out, so a bit of built in adjustment comes in handy.



So what needs to be done now is, strips cut to length and an adjusting slot machined, adjusting screws to be designed and made and the apron gear cutout to be machined on the front holding block.

These posts make it look like a very long drawn out process, but when you consider the problems and mods I am doing, it has extended it somewhat, plus I am only doing it in short stints of a couple of hours at most. A normal fit like this would only take a good day in the workshop.


Bogs


Offline Darren

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2009, 09:02:14 PM »
A good day for who?  :coffee:

Some of us would be still trying to figure out the hows and whys  :scratch:

The experience in this thread is shining very brightly and I'm sure many of us are holding out our buckets..... :wave:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2009, 02:07:16 AM »
By `ek....... I`m enjoying this project!  :clap:
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2009, 04:09:34 AM »
If it wern't for other comitments I'd be gettin' over there to see this up close and personal.... Oh, and say Hi too John  :)

I like the methods.... Who'd have ever thought of the use of the triangle program and little bar idea.... Not me! I'll remember that if I ever need an angle of the sort!

It's gonna be good to see this little lathe cut some metal once re-built   :thumbup:



Of course you'll keep us posted?



Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

bogstandard

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2009, 04:52:03 AM »
Many thanks for the comments lads, but really there is nothing new in there, just old ideas modified to do the job in hand. :dremel:

The round bar to get the angle is only using the sine bar principle, but not as accurate. The actual angle will be a second or two of a degree out, because the bar should really be mounted exactly half of it's diameter, exactly on the corner of the block, but what is a couple of seconds between friends. ::)

The chamfer bit on the corner of the block is only the reverse feature of a vee block. On a vee block they cut a strip along the bottom to relieve the corner, I just took the corner off, problem solved, and it was damned easier than than cutting a relief groove with the block set at 45 degrees. :ddb: :ddb:

It is only because I have many years of fixing machines in my past, that I know what to look for and where problems will arise.

Other people have just as much skill, but in different areas. :smart:

There are many better qualified machinists than me who will do everything by the book and get fantastic results. I threw the book away years ago, and do my own thing, using basic principles and what is knocking about the workshop, and get away with it most times.
Sometimes you have to go down the correct route, most times not. :zap:

John

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Fixing Darren's lathe
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2009, 05:58:03 AM »
Other people have just as much skill, but in different areas. :smart:

There are many better qualified machinists than me who will do everything by the book and get fantastic results. I threw the book away years ago, and do my own thing, using basic principles and what is knocking about the workshop, and get away with it most times.
Sometimes you have to go down the correct route, most times not. :zap:

John

Until retirement, my Oppo was Harry.
I`d had a traditional apprenticeship....... Harry had learned at a small jobbing shop.

He was the ideas man. I was the worker.
For 30+ years, between us, we were devastating..........  :headbang:

He knocked a hole through the wall, as a steady for that extra length bar.

He hung the end of the long fabrication from the crane, while I milled the other end.

Early CNC came along, he was good at maths. Pythagoras. Synophyp. Cosadhyp. Tanopadge.......

Different ideas/ ways, daily.

Eeeee...... I do miss him.......



David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!