Author Topic: Heat needed  (Read 12938 times)

Offline -steves-

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Heat needed
« on: November 14, 2011, 07:14:49 AM »
Hi all

I am after doing some silver soldering on a Stuart Crank. Even after a fwe minutes of heating with my little blow torch (camping gaz style) I was not able to heat it up enough to make the solder run :(

What do others use that I could purchase cheaply to do this type of job?

Cheers
Steve  :)
very new to all this....

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 07:50:21 AM »
I dont think there is anything 'cheap' that will cut the mustard....

Firstly do you have a brazing hearth? One can easily be made and doesnt cost the earth to make. I use cement board, bought from Wickes for around £15 for a 3*4 foot sheet, knocked up a frame from some scrounged angle..job done...Smaller components can be surrounded with fire brick pieces to reflect the heat and that is where a lot of problems lay...Heat is easily given up into the surrounding air not what we really want...

Heat wise, I too have a couple of the screw top bottled gas torches, ok for small stuff but nothing that comes close to a crank or a boiler..

My alternative is a 6kg Propane bottle and a suitable torch...Machine
Mart is where mine came from (although I dont think its up to doing a boiler- something bigger needed I think) and costs around £30, a tad cheaper than the Sievert ones but does as good a job...

I'll even admit to using a paraffin blow lamp at times.... :clap:
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Offline andyf

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 08:12:42 AM »
On John Bogstandards's advice, I too went to Machine Mart and got one of these propane torches:
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/fs555-gas-torch-kit

When you release the lever on the side, the flame reduces considerably, which is economical on gas and safer than waving around a torch which is running at full blast if you are momentarily distracted. You need to budget for a total of £100 by the time you have bought the propane and paid the deposit on the bottle.

Previously, I did manage to silver solder some realtively substantial items with a small MAPP torch like yoours, but I was able to balance them over a gas ring on the kitchen stove, and thus get some heat into them from below.

Andy 
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline -steves-

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:52:40 AM »
So if I had a small red bottle of gas just happening to be sat in the back garden, i think that is propane? That should fit one of these torches? Failing that, I have 2 large red bottles of gas in the caravan I could "borrow"  :) Are these the right sort of thing? I think the bottles are "Flowgas"?
very new to all this....

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 10:09:56 AM »
If the cylinders are Red in colour, look to see if it says Propane on the side somewhere.......

Propane is the hottest of the two readily available gases and works down to a lower temperature ( if you're going to be doing stuff at sub zero temps... :lol: )
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Offline -steves-

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 10:17:32 AM »
If the cylinders are Red in colour, look to see if it says Propane on the side somewhere.......

Propane is the hottest of the two readily available gases and works down to a lower temperature ( if you're going to be doing stuff at sub zero temps... :lol: )

Pretty sure it is propane, but will have to check when I get the oppertunity. Do the small cylinders have the same connection as the larger cylinders, and is that the connector that comes with the torch, or are there different standards and could I end up having to buy a new regulator? Had this issue with gas before.... :(
very new to all this....

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 11:59:11 AM »
TBH, Your best bet is to decide what you want in way of a torch and see what it comes with....I cant remember if the kit from MM came with a reg( probably not I suspect )...but the hose connectionis a left hand thread onto the regulator...There are different size connections on gas bottles too, just make sure you obtain the right reg for your torch and bottle........
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 12:42:31 PM »
This is my big one Steve.......

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Parasene-DIY-Blow-Torch-Lamp-Butane-Propane-Gas-Can-/300519808021?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item45f8605c15


I realise, you're thinking larger/ hotter. But, this works "instantly" on c/ heating fittings.
Also, with sensible shielding, it has raised red heat every time, for the little silver soldering I've done.

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline andyf

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 12:44:35 PM »
Steve, my MM kit came with a hose and regulator, as shown on the photo in the link I gave. I think the threads on these bottles (where the regulator screws in) are standard, however big the bottle. The female thread in the connector on my small (4kg) red Calor Gas propane bottle has a minor diameter of about 0.8" as measured crudely with the internal jaws of digital calipers, and is left handed. Compare that with your big red bottle.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2011, 11:57:44 AM »
Here's mine........



Haven't used it to ss a boiler yet, but I'd use supplementary heat ( blowlamp.. :clap: ) anyways to avoid using all my gas......
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Offline -steves-

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2011, 12:02:05 PM »
Here's mine........



Haven't used it to ss a boiler yet, but I'd use supplementary heat ( blowlamp.. :clap: ) anyways to avoid using all my gas......

Strange that John, I bought one of those yesterday, thanks for all the advise guys.....total cost was only £27.?? as I had the gas in the back garden, a full cylinder at that, seems to gt some heat up, just need to find something to test it on soon....

Now all i have to sort out is a little firing area...........:?
very new to all this....

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 12:06:00 PM »
seems to gt some heat up, just need to find something to test it on soon....


I got a boiler that needs soldering up if you're offering? :D :D
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Offline -steves-

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 12:56:07 PM »
seems to gt some heat up, just need to find something to test it on soon....


I got a boiler that needs soldering up if you're offering? :D :D

I take it you no longer like this boiler then, lol  :D I think it would be wise to fix that one yourself at the moment lol  :D For now I will stick to makeing one bit stick to another bit for parts that don't matter too much, lol :)
very new to all this....

Offline raynerd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 06:32:51 PM »
Steve, just to add my two penneth, I got both my Sievert torches from homeworshop.org, post an advert and I expect someone will have something going spare. I have two, one came with the regulator and cost me about £10 and the other has no regulator and is just the gun and cost me about £6-8. I use two thermal thermal blocks that cost a couple of quid from BQ and they also let me have some smashed up pieces for nothing!
However, I rarely use all that kit and can actually get some pretty big pieces hot enough using this BQ all in one cylinder and bottle job: http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav.jsp?action=detail&fh_secondid=11248058&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB/categories<{9372015}/categories<{9372043}/categories<{9372176}/categories<{9392053}/specificationsProductType=blowlamps

I`ve found that if I spend the time to make myself a little cave of thermal blocks and put the part in, I can get most pieces i need red hot although I do often set up on the kitchen gas ring to get some extra head around it!

I don`t know what silver solder you are using, but my biggest error in soldering was not getting the part hot enough, pushing the silver solder rod into the joint and hoping it would melt it. It never would and if it did, the joint was terrible. You can tell right away if it is hot enough as the solder gets sucked into the joint.

Good luck.
Chris

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2011, 03:29:58 AM »
I agree with Chris about the need for concentrating the heat- by any reasonable means. By this, I would use thermal bricks, metal shields and coke or charcoal to hold the heat in one place long enough to raise the temperature to a dull red-- and with the borax gone to a glassy liquid.

As he says, his early work was like? Well, might I say old fashioned cinder toffee?

So Steves, this is what you risk and all that careful work is ruined.

In a normal environment, you would be given a bit of thin steel plate, told to clean it thoroughly and put on the liquid borax. Your aim in life was NOT to do something proper but merely to see a puddle of solder appear  on the middle of the test piece. Then you would do another piece and perhaps stick a nut onto the sheet. Then you would move to a thicker sheet, bore a hole and put a rod into it-- and watch the solder wick its way through to the other side.

It would be then- and only then that you would be allowed to progress to the real job.

Once it all goes together, it is plain sailing. You then go out- look for a donkey with a missing tail, get the right flux and stick the tail back on.
Well, nearly?


Offline raynerd

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2011, 07:20:42 PM »
Just curious...where is Borax being used?? Is that all the flux is????? Surely not, I have about 20kg of this stuff for making PVA "slime" at work...and I just spent £15 on 250g of easyflo!!!  :doh:  I presume there must be a little more to it?

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2011, 03:38:29 AM »
Initially, I am not a chemist. Nor am I an expert in the composition of fluxes but know sufficiently to say that silver soldering stainless steel normally seeks a different flux.

That being said, I would say that normal borax would be quite suitable for brass, steel etc.

Might I then suggest that you get some of your borax, mix it into a thick paste with a drop of washing up liquid and 'have a dummy run' ?

Again, if you have sufficient heat, you can use borax to flux for brazing spelters which is cheaper than silver soldering.

After I'd penned these comments, I checked with one of these wonderful old trilogies of  books 'Engineering Workshop Practice'and found the above correct. Again, I had words with my wife( well?) and she is a retired orthodontic consultant-- and she used borax on stainless wire and clips.

Shooting off at a sort of tangent( as I tend) the flux in oxy acetylene welding for steel is the carbon content in the acetylene which conforms to carbon dioxide in Mig/Mag welding.Yeah, adding  argon helps a smoother flow- blah, blah.

Coming back to silver soldering/brazing, you can get a lot of heat from a cheap arc welder( on sale at Aldi now) if you use a pair of carbon rods in an arc. Don't forget the Number 13 shield if that is your thing.

Cheers

Offline stirling lad

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Re: Heat needed
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 09:27:17 PM »
Steves, I use one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Propane-Brass-Hot-Soldering-Blow-Torch-Heats-Melts-New-/350230328645?pt=UK_Crafts_JewelleryMaking_GL&hash=item518b5ab545
as it works with any the proper plumbers 16/oz gas bottles or even the fatboy bottles and you can get them from toolstation for a tenner with free delivery they even do mapp gas for brazing at the same price and its even hotter... it does'nt fit the cheaper refills like gosysyems ect...

...Mike...