Author Topic: Proxxon PD400  (Read 39393 times)

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 09:57:34 AM »
I'll experiment with different speed with the power feed at different cut depth some more.  Will try to get some "known" steel so that I can be more consistent in the future.  Now that school and work started, shop time will get lesser and lesser after the Lunar New Year, which is towards the end of this month.

One thing I like about this bigger lathe (relative to my sherline) is when facing.  When I've 40 to 50mm sticking out of the chuck jaws and stock is about 20 to 25mm in diameter, even at 0.25mm per pass, I don't have the stock flying out of the chuck.  I was so worried about that happening when I did my first face cut.  I believe I'll get myself comfortable after a few sessions.  When feeding under power, I was so afraid that the tool crash into the chuck initially.

Thanks for all the help I get from this forum.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 12:28:07 PM »
Hi Wong

I think the run-out you have on the chuck is well within the specs for a Rohm self centering chuck and the only way you will get better without surgery is to use a 4 jaw independant.  One point mind is that the chuck can be installed in any one of three positions.  What you can try it ot remove the chuck, make sure the backplate and register are very clean, and refit it one hole rotated in th back plate.  Do this three times and check the run-out each time.  When you find the best setting it was practice to put a light pop mark on the chuck with a matching one on the back plate so that when you refit at any time you pick the best postion.

Graham

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Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 05:54:26 PM »
Thanks Graham.

I'm looking forward to get a 4 jaw chuck and a collet chuck but have to do that after the lunar New Year or later to stay under teh radar... I've a set of ER32 collets bought with a chuck that is threaded 3/4-16 for my sherline sometimes back. Didn't use the chuck as the run-out is ridiculously high.  Bought a metric set of ER32 from other source (CTC Tools) but have not used them once.  Littlemachineshop.com sells ER32 chuck at USD199, a better looking price than the Proxxon collet chuck.

I didn't know that turning the 3 jaw in the base plate would have effect on run-out.  Will try it out and measure the effect.

Regards,
Wong.

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 06:50:35 PM »
Wong, ER chucks tend to be cheaper in the UK than the US. Many guys in the US find it more economical to buy from the UK, despite the higher shipping costs. Check these to see if the register diameter and the PCD of the fixing bolts would suit your spindle flange: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Lathe-Collet-Chucks

One from Proxxon will probably be more accurate, though if a cheap one has unacceptable runout, it is not too difficult to re-bore the taper.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 09:16:46 AM »
Andy, I'll check that out.  Thanks for pointing me to the site and your suggestions.  Will find out what's required on mine before making the move. Want to avoid boring taper at this moment till I've more knowledge.

Regards,
Wong

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 11:30:09 AM »
I'm giving up my search to find out the info on the Proxxon 3 jaw chuck online.  I'll go measure them in the next session.

The downside of getting a Proxxon is the lack of information on the machine.  Can be rather frustrating.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 12:14:49 PM »
I have to admit there is not much info on Proxxon in English  :coffee: although I suspect there may be more in German.

A word about the proxxon collects and why I have not bought them.  Unlike ER collects they are not double slit so the clamping capacity will be restricted to the nominal bore unlike the 1mm range of the ER's.  I have bought two sets of ER's the ER20 with MT 2 holder for use in the tail stock and ER25 with a MT 3 holder for use in the headstock both from HK.  I have yet to unpack them and even check if the runout is within the specified range or not.  I eventually plan to make a holder (I have bought a spare nut from CTC) bored directly on the lathe to ensure max accuracy.  This will be a fraction of the cost of the Proxxon ones and more versitile (I hope).  CTC have ER 32 MT 3 holders for a relatively small cost that may make some sence until you want to try to make your own holder.

Graham
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

Offline wongster

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Proxxon PD400
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 05:51:17 PM »
I changed the Subject to reflect the general discussion.

I bought the ER16 with MT1 for the Sherline with collets.  These are very convenient like you have mentioned.  I can't remember what I clocked the last time but the runout is pretty decent.  Wanted to buy a set for the Proxxon but has no idea if the drawbar bolt head can clear the small space at the gear compartment.  So I thought of getting those that are mounted on the backplate.

Wong

Offline andyf

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 06:58:19 PM »
Wong, changing the subject line doesn't seem to have worked.

The big advantage of bolt-on ER collet chucks is that they leave the spindle bore unobstructed. Long stock can be passed through the collet and spindle.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 07:22:52 PM »
It didn't  :Doh:

That's what I thought.  Thanks for confirming.

I just did a quick measurement of the registration of the backplate.  Its 70mm (or more of 69.98mm) across and 2.35mm deep.  The one on the Rohm 3-jaw chuck is deeper.  So I guess the circumference of the registration boss and the outer face keep the chuck square to the spindle.  Measuring the PCD is a little more tricky (or rather, I've no confident of the number being right).  The bolts are rather loose when turned into the backplate.  From one bolt to another I get 71.61mm (after zero'ing out the caliper with the diameter of the bolt).  Some Trigo have to be used next.  I've to start revising on the subject.  It has been more than 20 years back...

Regards,
Wong

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Hard to crank handwheels - Proxxon PD400
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2012, 01:30:59 AM »
Wong, changing the subject line doesn't seem to have worked.

Now fixed.


Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2012, 03:17:52 AM »
Thanks Tim.

Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2012, 03:33:46 AM »
Hi Wong,

It's been 50 years since I bumped into trig, so I use this http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/index.htm

If you click on Sectors, your measurement will be the chord and the angle will be either 120 or 90, depending whether you have 3 bolts or 4. That will give you the radius, which should be doubled for the PCD.

I think clearance is allowed in the holes in the spindle flange to ensure that the register locates the chuck, without being influenced by any tiny errors in the positions of the bolts or the holes. My lathe came with M8 bolts and 9mm holes.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2012, 03:51:25 AM »
SomehowI suspect that you are expecting too much in the way of accuracy from your lathe. 
Initially, you set off with problems with stiff handles or dials and came up with a question about the fit of a pair of sliding parts- and then came up with a solution of - Using grease! Sorry but the correct lubricant for sliding parts is slideways oil or even ordinary motor oil-- but not grease.
Again, you did this 'improvement' with the feed screws. Sorry, the slides are always done by removing the feed screws, oiling and feeling them slide - to suit your way of working. Then, the feed screws and nuts are replaced- and tested again for stiffness, backlash and so on.
If, as others and yourself mentioned, there was some doubt about fit and 'faked' scraping, you should have blued the matting parts in- and got a scraper out and got them to fit. You may have had to scrape the gibs or even had to peg them- but you would have a nicely adjusted lathe.
This would have given you a lathe which would be nice to quickly clean at each maintenance session. Because this is what everyone has to do-- or should do!

Let us turn to three jaw chucks now. Few lathes possess chucks which are really accurate.  You can expect them to hold perhaps 0.003" TIR but to get better, you involve greater expense in having to get something like a Griptru.  If you cannot afford one, then you use a independent four jaw or perhaps collets if the work is small enough.

Now, you have some difficulty in fitting retro-fitting a three jaw backplate. Initially, the backplate should be machined to get an accurate face and then addressed to take new chuck.  As the chuck is going to have an element of inaccuracy, you should clock - not on the jaws but on the outside of the chuck body- and after all the mechanism has been removed- and everything ready and cleaned.  The bolt holes or tappings follow and only after the lot has been de-burred, assembled.

As far as the collets are concerned, you only get what you pay for.

Above all, you should check your own work- step by step- and make each correction and adjustment as you go along.

I have no doubt that others will find room to criticise these comments but it should suffice to say that I run an very old Myford Super 7 which had been abused and used on woodwork. The bed was re-ground professionally and the fit of the saddle had to be re-built with Turcite.
The smaller items were scraped in by hand and the things like broken and sheared gears were machined and fitted.
Unashamedly, this is not perfect and some parts could do with replacing but there is always difficulty in getting spares- or finding time to make them.

I hope that my comments might be of some use to you.

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2012, 05:37:43 AM »
Thanks for your comments. It is helpful.

In fact, I'm not expecting anything as I don't know what's too much or within norm. I do property loans for a living in a bank. No background or any training in mechanical stuff. Like many others, this is a hobby. I'm learning as I go.

After reading the post on using way oil, I wiped off the grease and use the way oil I bought from A2Z CNC. I wanted to remove the feed screws but that seem impossible; one side has a key for the handwheel that blocks coming out from that direction and the other side is blocked by the shoulder (may be using wrong term here) of the feed screw). Same arrangement for both the compound slide & cross slide. I wonder how they put that in in the first place. I'll look at them later tonight.

I don't think I know and am confident enough to scape. I believe with my current level of knowledge (or lack of), the part will no longer be usable. I'll start looking at scraping when I get my basic out if the way.

The ER32 was mentioned because I've full set of the collets bought something back. The ER32 MT1 chuck I bought from US has too great a runout to be of good use. I kind of like the use of the ER collet than the 4 jaw chuck.  This is from the prospective of a beginner.

Keep your comment coming.

Regards,
Wong



Offline andyf

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2012, 05:46:42 AM »
Wong, the keys will probably pull out if you can get a good grip on them with pliers. They will then fly across the room, never to be seen again.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2012, 05:51:23 AM »
Andy, I got to careful then. Better do it during the day where I'm probably more awake than after a long day of work.

Thanks for prempting me.

Regards,
Wong

Offline devheadbot

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
Hi Wong,

The attached may be of help wrt the PD400 spindle flange dimensions...

Cheers,

Vijay

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2012, 10:47:09 AM »
Hi Vijay,

Thank you...

I got the OD of the register alright but the PCD computed based on the length of 2 bolts was off.  The figure I got was 81.xxxmm.  Thats the reason I don't trust my measurement of existing parts... till I've more experience.

There is this 0.5mm dimension on the first drawing under the word MK3.  Any idea what is that?

Those ER32 collet chuck from Arc Euro, LMS, and others I found have PCD of less than 83mm.  Got to find harder...

Regards,
Wong

Offline devheadbot

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2012, 11:36:17 AM »
Hi Wong,

On the 0.5mm dimension, unfortunately no.

I suspect you might have a bit of a tough time locating a collet chuck with a PCD of 83mm.  While I was researching the PD400, I too wasn't too happy with the Proxxon collets (like Graham mentioned above) prompting me to consider using ER collets from Arc, LMS, et al. Needing the spindle dimensions to identify a suitable collet chuck I contacted Proxxon who responded promptly and efficiently with the pdf I posted.  And, while I don't have the original mail from Proxxon handy, I seem to recollect them mentioning something on the lines of the spindle dimensions (register, pcd) being unique to them. After a bit of searching unsuccessfully for a collet chuck that matched I pretty much gave up on it. That was a bit of a turn off!

I'm still without a lathe  :bang: but I hope this is of some help to you.

Vijay

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »
Hi Vijay,

It is definitely usefully; at least I won't be buying the wrong thing (I thought 82mm PCD type would fit).

Regards,
Wong

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2012, 12:46:06 PM »
There is some information on the old Chris Heapy site which may be helpful.
OK, you'll have to move from the Japanese site to get it. There is a lot more information there for other problems as well.

In addition, the late Martin Cleeve got the matter sorted out to tenths of thous by making slotted holes in the back plate.
Again, the late Professor Dennis  Chaddock adopted this as well.

Maybe a re-think?

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As a sort of post script, Lathes.co.uk also has an article.

Regards

F O'M
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 03:21:03 PM by Fergus OMore »

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2012, 11:19:23 PM »
Thanks for the leads.  I did a search and found Chris Heapy site.  Will go through the articles.

Regards,
Wong

Offline grayone

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2012, 12:39:54 PM »
In addition, the late Martin Cleeve got the matter sorted out to tenths of thous by making slotted holes in the back plate.
Again, the late Professor Dennis  Chaddock adopted this as well. Maybe a re-think?

The Proxxon is a front mount with tapped holes in the spindle flange (it is integral to the spindle unlike a Myford) so cannot be slotted.

Wong I would suggest that you refrain from trying rebuild your new lathe as you will do more damage than good.  Clean off any grease with a small amount of kerosene and a paintbrush then lightly oil. With respect to the guy who made the comment forget about scraping the bed the lathe as it stands is more than a match for anything you are likely to do at this stage of your hobby.  Decide on what you want to make, steam engine, IC engine or whatever and give it a go.  If when you try to make your project the accuracy of the machice is not good enough then that is the time to start to try to tune your lathe.  Not now and probably not ever.

Regards

Graham
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

Offline wongster

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Re: Proxxon PD400
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2012, 01:08:40 PM »
Hi Graham,

Roger that.  No intention at this point as it is a new machine.  Besides, I have not the skill/knowledge nor the courage to "improve" the lathe.  I'm so far quite satisfied with the slides after playing around with the gibs.  Will not attempt to remove the feed screws too; not easy to find things that fly off in a little room almost fully filled.

I've started with my first simple project to get acquainted with the lathe - a tailstock locking lever of sort.  It doesn't have the nice looks of those I've seen on the web, just a simple piece with M8 threads and a taller head for a tommy bar.  I chose to do this so as to also learn how to thread on the machine.  A simple air compressor type engine will be next, but after I finished up with the leadscrew conversion on my CNC mill.

I do have a question after finishing a session turning down an unknown steel rod from 22mm to 13mm.  How deep can I go per pass for steel? I've been going at 0.2mm after hearing the strain while cutting at 0.3mm.  Wanted to go further but didn't want the stock to fly at me... (something that happen frequently while I was turning using the Sherline lathe.  The speed used was 660 rpm with power feed set at 0.07mm/rev.  The stock was about 45mm out of the chuck jaws unsupported.

Regards,
Wong