What use shaper has on hobby work shop

[PekkaNF]

I see some big shapers on the market ocassionally. Some are clearly to make keyways, but some look pretty versatile.

Latest one I saw had a stoke of 400mm. Pretty typical here.

So, what they can be used for? I never used one. There must be something they are excellent and probably for some operations you would be better of with a milling machine. Only stopped keyways, splines and such? I have an impression that for gearwheels and many other parts you need fancy TCG, microscope and such.

I hope this is not all to daft question.
Pekka

[Miner]

I wouldn't say your question was daft at all. While industry has all but abandoned them due to their metal removal rates. There's still a need and place for the HSM types. Consider what a quality dovetail cutter costs and just how fragile it is. You can do the same job on a shaper with a properly sharpened $5.00 standard high speed steel tool bit at home. And as a side benifit, The minor tooling marks go with the direction of how a dovetailed machine tool part slides. Internal gears would be another example. Internal thru keyways would be another one. But I've only listed a few items.

To be totally honest, I can't think of a single job that a shaper can do that someone hasn't invented a really expensive accesory to do the same job on a Bridgeport style mill. On top of that? Shapers are just a really cool tool to have, use, and watch it work. I've wanted one for over 20 years and finally bought one. If you've got the money and space for one and your interested enough, I'd buy one. Since their not making them anymore in your average home shop size, The costs won't be dropping anymore than they are now. In fact I've noticed a slight upward trend in the prices over the last couple of years.

But your future projects would dictate the actuall need for one IMO. Also a shaper would be an addition to a vertical mill and not a replacement for it.

Pete

[John Hill]

I have a very small bench top Adept 2 shaper in my home shop, even at that size it is very useful on small parts that I might be messing around with.  However, what I use it for most is ripping the rusty surface off virgin billet scrapbinium! 

It can quickly rip rusty surfaces down to something useable and no matter how difficult the surface the only tool damage is quickly remedied on the grinder, I dont think I would use any old rusty scrap at all if I had to buy milling cutters to clean it up.

[awemawson]

Dump your rusty scrap in a tank of citric acid for 48 hours and it will come out clean as a whistle. Easy and safe to use.

This does not detract from the versatility of a shaper. I used to have a 10" Alba No 1, which sadly had to go to make room for my Bridgeport at my last place, but I really missed it's use. So now I have rather more space I've recently acquired an 18" stroke big beasty that really commands respect when on full travel!!!

[PekkaNF]

You are such a down to earth fellows

Even tought I have a serious flu now I can still hear Seirens humming. My garage is pretty tight now. I probably could scrap two useless lathes and organize pile of mystery tool parts (I have lost there small revolverlathe basket case and such).

I'm blessed with 3*25A feed /triphase, I'm soo ready to rescue just one more functional piece of history.

I really should read a book or something of thsi topic. I see some people getting mesmerized just out of word "shaper" and then some says. "Jup you can do dovetails, but you have to grind two identical tools" or "yup, you can do gears, but you need n+1 precission form tools to make that gear" and such. I don't know which opinion to trust to.

Like:
I like to use band saw and milling machine with saw blade to cut and rough pieces for turning/milling. I would hate to use abrassive disk and angle grinder just too much fire hazzard and noice to my liking.

I rather use carbide tools, although HSS would be more flexible and cheaper on the long run. Because of the grinding.

And I don't have ID/OD grinder, which ofcourse would be really-really nice sometimes.

There is a catch. I could overcome my prejudices for grinding if I would buy a decent TCG, they are here roughly same weight/volume/price than a shaper.....but I have space only to one such a large thing. I have a little of a problem here.

To make a judgement call I need to educate myself. I don't see myself trading many used tools. Even buying them is a hurdle.


I have almost given up using scrapbinium TM, but then I got steady supply of tempering steel rods (probably have now someting like 200 kg from 14 to 25 mm OD and some short bigger sections) wonderfull and predictable stuff to outside turn and mill, but proverbial pain on the shoutside to punch holes into. Where on earth is free maching steel when you need some modest amount of it?

Pekka - made out of flunssium and snoothnium now but wish to get well soon

[John Hill]

Dump your rusty scrap in a tank of citric acid for 48 hours and it will come out clean as a whistle. Easy and safe to use.

This does not detract from the versatility of a shaper. I used to have a 10" Alba No 1, which sadly had to go to make room for my Bridgeport at my last place, but I really missed it's use. So now I have rather more space I've recently acquired an 18" stroke big beasty that really commands respect when on full travel!!!

.....then put it on your shaper for a nice machined finished surface..

[John Hill]

Pekka, to my mind you can use your shaper for rough work and precision work.

Rough work is putting a nice surface on scrapbinnium (while finding about its machining characteristics). Precision work is a whole nother kettle of fish,  careful planning, maybe special tools and concentration until the job is done.

I find HSS shaper tools easy enough to grind perhaps the straight line motion makes the shape easy to visualise and I think carbide tips would just chip and be a constant frustration.

Yes you can make gear wheels on a shaper, true involute shape teeth using only a simple 'V' shaped cutting tool but there is some setting up required and some simple pieces to make.  The princple is that the gear blank is made to revolve at the appropriate rate as the horizontal feed moves the blank under the cutting tool.  Of course a mill with the correct gear cutter is faster but I am sure you could make the pieces for cutting gears on a shaper for much less than a set of gear cutters.  Shapers are reputed to be able (to be used) to cut internal gears, keyways and splines but I have only used mine to cut a keyway.

I have also read that one can make anything with a shaper, except money. They are of course quite slow with only one cutting point and that only cutting for something less than 50% of the time.

Ignore that flu,  carry on regardless!!!!

[Fergus OMore]

It seems a pity that Ian Bradley's book The Shaping Machine hasn't been mentioned.

He even used his as a hacksaw machine. Sadly, I gave my copy away but I have still his Shaping Machine and Lathe Tools MAP Technical Publication.

It's got some nice swan necked finishing tools illustrated to go with his internal keyway cutting stuff.

And  if you want to know how to make them, you are in for a challenge. Not on a T and C grinder- well, he didn't 'cos I have his Grinding Machine  and his Drilling Machine books.

I'll leave it at that

F O'M

[doubleboost]

I have seen what Rob Wilson can do with his 
All i can say is a want one 
If you need something flat or square with a good surface finish you would be hard pushed to beat a shaper
They seem to operate in a magical slow precise method  Very pleasing to watch
You have time to oil things, drink coffie, smoke and talk about whatever takes your fancy
Well that is my humble opinion
John

[John Hill]

Mine came with a little hacksaw attachment, shop made and too small to be much practical use, it also came with what looks like a paint can shaker which I have never fitted or tried to use.

[John Stevenson]

Shapers are brilliant at holding a lump of floor down so it doesn't disapear until you can get a decent machine to replace it.

John S.

[rleete]

I know someone that is thinking of selling one.  Benchtop model, 7" I believe.  I think it's a Logan, but I am not sure.  He says he's looking for about 500 bucks.  He's trying to get me to buy it, but I'm out of room for more machines.  Contact me if you're interested, and I'll put you in touch with him.  Location is Rochester, NY.

[modelman1938]

In the old days believe it or not, shapers were used to profile the blades for jet turbine engines, at the old de havilland engine company at Stag Lane in London. The single tool clapper box was removed and replaced with a specially designed five tool box with tools set at predetermined centres with a hydraulic follower along side working on a profiled former.The blade were only small but they came out beautifully finished and it was pretty to watch.
 Hugh

[Fergus OMore]

In the old days believe it or not, shapers were used to profile the blades for jet turbine engines, at the old de havilland engine company at Stag Lane in London. The single tool clapper box was removed and replaced with a specially designed five tool box with tools set at predetermined centres with a hydraulic follower along side working on a profiled former.The blade were only small but they came out beautifully finished and it was pretty to watch.
 Hugh

So I recall a DH Goblin powered DH Vampire piloted by Group Capt ( Cat's Eyes) John Cunningham coming in on feasability trials at RAF Hendon which is round the corner from Stag Lane.

I'm 81+ and you must be quite ancient by now.
 

[John Hill]

Fergus, we have a couple of Vampires and a Meteor plus a spare engine or two in our museum, maybe I should take a close look at those blades?   We have an Avon too  but I guess they had moved on from shapers by then?

[Fergus OMore]

hi John,
              I was looking at web and recalled the death of Geoffrey De Havilland in the 108.
And then 1949- as mentioned. I recall going to Farnborough to see the Meteor 8's with reheats, the first Canberra and Shackleton( flying on one engine) and an overfly of Brabazon from Filton. Cannot recall the other 108 at Farnborough. I wonder if this is a myth on Wiki whatsit?

Three of us left from RAF 31 Squadron now. Plus one 'Spitty' JM-R and a couple of Devons and dear old VP-981 which is still airworthy.

Thanks for the memory

Norman

[Rob.Wilson]

Hi Pekka


Here is one job i used my shaper for ,,,the clutch gear on my CUB lathe had been very badly repaired in the passed ,, with the weld repair the gears did not mesh correctly 


so i made a new one on the shaper .






Lets see a mill do that 
Rob

[ieezitin]

Pekka.

There worth every penny spent to get one. long stroke 3 phase units or small 7" -5" stroke single phase machines it does not matter there equal in form and function. Here are my reasons why i own a 7" model and in the near future will be purchasing another one. There in random order.

with quick set up you can turn scrap into stock, while its removing material you can work on something else. Cutter tooling is pennies and even free, all taps i break become tooling and thick saw blades i make into parting tooling made for slotting for the shaper are some examples. Its very versatile, gears, gear racks,dovetails, slotting (internal external), hex slots. oval slots, square you name it its done with ease. Profiling, radius shapes, square and even triangular are done in a snip.

it can hacksaw, it can file, it can polish it can even grind and hone.

Tooling. most lathes and all milling machines need expensive necessary tooling to function and to get the most out of them. By virtue of the fact that the sharper uses a linear motion most additions for tooling can be easily made in the shop with little auxiliary machines needed.


the little home shop shapers 7" and such take up a small footprint considering for what its capable of, mine sits on the same bench as one of my lathes and i have a cabinet underneath for storage.


Due to the way it machines and removes metal it has to by nature be stout and robust, a flimsy built machine would just self destruct if it were built scant. all western built machines hold very close tolerances because of the simple design.so with little maintenance and treated with care you have a very valuable asset for life, by valuable i mean what it can do and make i do not mean it in monetary terms.

But my most important reason i own one is that its a machine that makes you think! its second to the lathe on what can be achieved. and the another side benefit is while it working away in the shop the sound it produces is really magic.

Now i probably will get some flack on this but in my opinion in a home hobby shop environment you don't need a mill, a lathe and a shaper will make everything you will ever need. In my mind a mill is a luxury not a necessity.

Thease charming machines have been over looked because of the machining time restraints they have, they sit in machine shops gathering dust forgotton and then scrapped for there footprint they take up. they are slow and that's true, but using one for creating things has 100 times more appealing features and self satisfaction than zipping up a knee milling machine and tearing into your work piece. They were in the machine shop before any milling machine was used and there is a reason for that because form and need leads to function hence the berth of a shaper.

Don't be intimidated by them if you don't know how to use one, left in your shop with one for three hours you would be able to be very proficient with one all that being self taught. they are simple things with a vast scope of possibilities.

Anthony.

[John Rudd]

Rob,

Did you grind a tool specially to fit the gear profile? (Still learning....)

How do you go about hardening the gear?

Yet another great job..

[Fergus OMore]

PM's for you and Rob

Cheers

[Rob.Wilson]

Rob,

Did you grind a tool specially to fit the gear profile? (Still learning....)

How do you go about hardening the gear?

Yet another great job..

Cheers John

Yes i just ground the tool up by hand ,,, its a slow running gear ,,,,,,,,,, no  need to harden  the gear, original was not  , I made it from D2 or EN24T  cant remember which  either way tough enough as is 


Rob

[Tony Wells]

I believe that one major reason that shapers are not vogue at this point in time is materials. Mostly restricted to HSS tooling, carbon and low alloy steels are handled just fine on the shaper, but modern exotic alloys don't always lend themselves to the tooling of shapers. I have cut some Ti and a few high nickel alloys on mine, but I don't believe I would want to make a practice of it, nor trying to make any money doing it. 

I've done many internal spline jobs for pay. When confronted with small quantities, the customers are faced with alternate strategies such as EDM, which has come down in cost, but still we can't rule out the humble shaper.

[John Hill]

You can still buy them new from China, nice man sized ones up to 1 metre stroke!



http://www.timac.net.cn/Product.asp?BigClassName=Shaping/Slotting Machine

I have heard very good things about this particular company and yes they will ship single items right to your front door!

Hmmmmm, if you get one you could fit my version of the auto down feed without too much bother!

[Rob.Wilson]

And a bit more shaper work here if your interested , may give you a few more ideas of what can be done with a shaper  http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=6037.150   making an angle plate and Keats plate for my CUB lathe 
Starts 1/2 way down the page .
Rob

[loply]

I wonder how well a CNC mill could be made to act as a shaper... Either by means of attaching tools to some special, rigid extension of the head, or with some attachment that goes onto the mill base or column....