Author Topic: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?  (Read 8515 times)

Offline AndyB

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How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« on: February 05, 2012, 08:32:48 AM »
Hi all. here's one for you.

I help out at a local industrial steam museum and, among other things (it is a constant work in progress), we are renovating the self-contained condenser on an 1879 Gimson & Co beam engine.

We have got to fit a new piston ring which is made of rope wound 3 or 4 times round the piston and which is secured by the ends in two holes in the ring groove held by pegs hammered in.

My question is; how do you/I trim the ends of the rope so that the outer strands are retained by the peg while making the rope thin enough to go in the hole and be held by the peg?

My thoughts are to 'paint' the outer strands (to identify them when winding it all back up) and then undo the whipping, then use scissors to trim out the inner strands. I feel that the inner should be cut to a taper, cutting a cone into the rope about 1 inch long, ending up at a point in the middle in order to keep the profile of the rope to as close to the hole as possible while giving the peg a chance at fitting the hole to give a start.

Having thought this out, is it then possible to 'drill' out the centre using a cone cutter that I could make? The whipping on the ends of the rope could, maybe, hold the outer strands in place while this is being done.

The rope looks and feels like sisal (the original was) although it is a man-made fibre.
Just to let you know, PTFE rope to do the job is nearly £2000! :jaw:

Does anyone have any experience or ideas please?

Just something to get the grey cells working.

Many thanks

Andy



Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2012, 08:41:37 AM »
I'd remember however that you could tease all the strands out and put them back at random.

George Stephenson apparently packed the cylinders of Rocket with the felt from---- the foreman's hat!
 :doh:

On a more serious thread( :hammer:), model loco builders used to use graphited yarn( or so the story goes)

Offline DMIOM

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2012, 10:23:07 AM »
.........Having thought this out, is it then possible to 'drill' out the centre using a cone cutter that I could make? The whipping on the ends of the rope could, maybe, hold the outer strands in place while this is being done....

Andy,

Never had experience in this context, but have worked with rope quite a bit, so a few thoughts:

The only way you would stand any chance of rotationally coring the end would be if you had fused it solid - otherwise I'm sure the fibres would just turn away from the pressure of any edge tool, rather than staying still long enough to be actually cut.

You might manage to 'scoop' a little of the core out if you made a wire U tool to use with the likes of a Weller heat gun (as in heavy duty pistol-style soldering iron) - however you then run the risk of being left with a hollow fused cylinder which you would impede you compressing the tapered end.

You could try completely fusing the end and then thermoforming the taper; but you're likely to be left with a less-flexible transition which would be awkward to turn into the securing hole and might be a weak point.

All of these of course depend on what stock the rope is made from - polypropylene, polyamide, etc. - some melt, some just char.

I suspect the most practical way to tackle this is, as you outlined, to remove the whipping and then progressively trim the strands.

In terms of what to trim: without seeing the actual rope in question, and how it is laid, the issue seems to be that you wanted to keep the outer 'strands' in place.  Typically the yarn and the strands are twisted in opposite directions - the yarn to form strands may be right-hand laid and the strands twisted together left-handed to form the rope - this balanced twisting (hawser laid) is to stop a rope un-twisting in service. Becuse of these twists, what is the outer yarn at the end may be well inside the rope an inch or two further back. So (from a detached perspective) I would suggest that trying to keep all the fibres that are on the outside surface may be a challenge not worth pursuing!

To achieve a taper like this, the first thing I would do is to confirm that the end is suitable - its not unknown for the end of a rope to be fused and then whipped, so you may have to go back up an inch or two to get workable material.

I would place a stop whipping on the body of the rope going back up the rope from where the taper is to start, to stop it unravelling beyond the head of the taper.  I would then remove any current whipping and trim the rope just a little longer than the final taper length (the reason for this is that when you re-twist the trimmed strands they won't lie as tightly as when the rope was machine twisted, and may leave you short). I would then un-pick / comb out the strands and trim the taper (allowing for the diameter of any whipping that'll be re-applied)- either tapering it by eye, or push a fid up the centre and trim back to a cylinder.

The yarns can then be twisted to give a bit more structure - but as its such a short taper you may not be able to achieve that great a structure - and it may not be practical to achieve the same number of strands as in the original rope.

Keeping a permanent whipping on such a steeply tapered tail can be a challenge - the original whipping won't be much help, and (unlike normal whipping) you'll probably need to use a needle and take periodic stitches all the way through try to keep it in place.  Depending on the final destination, you may even find that applying a few bands of thin-walled heatshrink, or something like Copydex, may be sufficient to hold the taper together until the pin is driven in.

Dave

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2012, 11:18:54 AM »
Is it worth mentioning something called--- a piston ring compressor?

OK, it's no more than caulking which is putting oakum in between deck planks.

Or if you want me to be rude-- it is the basis of the  expression-- money for old rope.

see BBC I Player-- Cutty Sark-National Treasure. Only 3 days or so ago.

And of course, Stuffing Boxes using greased flax.

( never thought that I'd have to get me arse to the marste again, and put me helm hard over. Gybe ho, Choc le foc and other such heave ho me hearties)

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 01:45:20 PM »
Thank you chaps,

We didn't go to the museum today because of the weather but I will take some measurements and photos next week.

The holes are about 3/8 diameter and the rope about 1/2 or 5/8 inch.

DMIOM: I had not thought of Copydex to hold it and that is a great idea. If I fuse the end it will not crush to secure (haven't tried heat on it). I didnt take the plugs out but the original sisal had all but disappeared so not a lot to go on. I will ask whoever took out the plugs how the rope lay (there are only 5 of us).

Fergus: a piston ring compressor is no good; I have to reduce the rope end enough to be able to secure it in the hole with the plug without the outer unravelling otherwise it will just all come undone in use. I have to reduce the end by at least half to secure it.

Please keep any and all ideas coming, it all helps enormously. Thanks

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 PM »
Hi Andy!

Sisal- no, not really. Didn't the old boys use flax or hemp and stick it all down with shellac rosin and beeswax.

You could cheat a bit- using hot glue gun.

Not Shipshape and Bristol Fashion- but who ,apart from an old  grumpy, is watching?

Cheers

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 03:50:54 PM »
Hi Fergus,

Errr...I don't think I mentioned that the piston is about 2 feet across...  :(

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline DMIOM

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 05:40:45 PM »
Hi Andy,

another thought - not so much on 'how' but on 'what' to fit ...

You mentioned you're replacing a natural fibre rope with a man-made one.  That man-made rope will, to a greater or lesser degree act like, say, Scotchbrite.  As well as possible abrasive aspects, a man-made composition may not have the same fluid retention characteristics as a natural material, so may start each run drier as well.   Are you certain that the material you've planning to use is compatible and won't result in accelerated wear in the bore?

Dave

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 03:34:42 PM »
Hi all,

Dave: You are right about using the correct material. The boss got the correct stuff, but the bloke who can fit this, and has done in the past is no longer well enough to repeat it or give instruction.

Fergus: the rope that came out was hemp I believe. It had been in there for 30 years but had rotted away. We collect rainwater for using in the boilers and condensers and the acid or alkali rain caused by the recent volcanos may have done that. We certainly had a lot of grey mud  in the bottom of the boiler when we cleaned it out, and I am sure that it is volcanic dust.

I doubt that it was shellaced as this would not give a seal; greased may be.

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 04:01:15 PM »
This is the engine...

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1992633

And again, with pictures of the dismantling

http://oldenginehouse.users.btopenworld.com/hop1.htm

The condenser is at the bottom of the rod that hangs between the pivot and the cylinder con rod, and goes beneath the floor (that you can't see :lol:)

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 03:33:37 AM »
Andy,
           I'm still 'with a natural fibre' and agree that hemp makes sense because unlike synthetics hemp rope will absorb water.
It was one of the reasons that hemp climbing ropes were superceded with nylon after the war! They got bloody heavy when wet and frozen.

I'm still going back to oakum and packing and probably something like a gigantic( to you but titchy to a real engine builder' ring compressor.
Again, I am quite unabashed about what was actually something akin to the gooey stuff that we used in wax chucks and made out of rosin, suint and wax.

Probably, you should refer to a strange reference--- Stuffing boxes.

Probably there are still oldies with active minds and more hands on knowledge to help you further. My great grandfather, grandfather, my father and two brothers would have gently smiled.

Cheers

Norman

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 03:10:03 PM »
Thanks Norman,

I have been given advice to chase up the way the Navy reduces a rope to a point, with reference to hammocks.

But all ideas and suggestions welcome; if I don't use them on this then I certainly will on other projects.

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 05:17:50 PM »
Basically, you are looking at the long splice but keep the splice from thickening, the individual strands  are tapered - sort of until the rope looks one complete length or circle.

I suspect that this is becoming a lost art. I recall doing one- not very good- for my Second Class in the Boys Scouts.

Long time since I had a 'main  sheet' in my hand and it folded over the tiller arm- and my toes hooked under the gunnel-and my dear wife nursing the gib sheet.

Thankx

Offline John Hill

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 01:49:23 AM »
How to put a taper on the end of a rope?

I hope the rope is like real natural rope and made of short fibres twisted together?  If so I think you could unravel each lay and comb out some of the fibres, combing more towards the end.  Then retwist the lays and recreate the rope.  You want it to hold together of course and you want to use something authentic so maybe lanolin or something like water pump grease or even petroleum jelly could be worked in to the fibres of the tapered part.

From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 11:19:13 AM »
I'd sort of forgotten that I'd done a bit of sailing and boat building and this and that.

Today, I came across this across this:-

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/tools/clamptite/index.htm

Thought that you might find it and the rest of the stuff at 'Duckworks' interesting.

Cheers me dears


Offline David Jupp

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 11:58:32 AM »
May be a stupid idea - but is there any alternative to the rope going into the hole?  (it sounds a bit tricky if hole is smaller than rope and you have to put a peg in too). 

If hole is close to top/bottom of groove, can rope be trapped  between peg and the top/bottom face of the groove for example? 

Just thinking that the rope may well have been replaced a number of times previously, so may not necessarily be installed as per when it left the factory...

Offline AndyB

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Re: How do I fit a rope piston ring to a beam engine condenser?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 03:25:02 PM »
Thanks for the info chaps, this is getting really interesting!

Tel, over on HMEM, gave me this website which is fabulous for anyone interested in ropes and knots:
http://doit101.com/Knots/knots.htm

Sorry David, the hole is in the base of the groove at one side, and the rope end has to fit in it.

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border