Author Topic: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion  (Read 25473 times)

Offline philf

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Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« on: March 26, 2012, 03:42:01 PM »
Having been mainly an observer on the site for some months I have been coerced into doing a post of my own.

Some years ago I acquired 2 Alexander manual engraving machines for the princely sum of £100. They looked like a suitable basis for a CNC conversion and, at the price, I couldn't resist them.

Even better was that, a matter of weeks after acquiring them, I saw an ad on Homeworkshop.org for a spindle for an Alexander engraver. I replied and was offered £100! The spindle was despatched and thus the machines were free! The pantographs and copy tables were taking up too much space and went to the tip.

Some time last year I decided to unsheet the machines which had been stored outside and drag the best one into my workshop.

Before I retired I managed to acquire a good assortment of very high accuracy ballscrews off redundant equipment. The mounting of the nuts wasn't conventional but they were too good not to use. I spent a lot of time drawing out parts of the engraver and eventually found a convoluted way of using them. (Keeping the y-axis screw protected from swarf was a major issue.)

Unfortunately I didn't take any photos during the conversion but this is the finsished machine:



The spindle is home made and is supported on an arm fabricated from 4" thick wall square tube with a piece of 4" x 1" mild steel welded to the end. From a distance the welding looks OK but it's only after milling off the lumps and filling in the holes with Plastic Padding! I could do with attending the Rob Wilson School of Welding! The face was machined square to the arm in the lathe.



I designed the spindle to take ER32 collets directly and wanted it to be capable of up to 10,000 rpm. The bearings are precision preloaded double row angular contact at the bottom and at the top two deep groove shielded ball bearings which are preloaded together but can float relative to the bottom bearings to take care of thermal expansion. To get to my desired 10,000 rpm top speed the bottom bearings had to be oil lubricated and hence the drip feed lubricator. The 'coolant' nozzle isn't connected to a coolant pump - it's connected to a fairly quiet diaphragm compressor to blow chips out of the way as well as cooling the tool. Sticky materials like CZ 108 brass still need lubricant but I apply that with a paint brush.



The spindle is driven from a new 0.55kw 3,000rpm inverter class motor which runs from an inverter at up to 5,000 rpm. The 3 step pulleys are Poly-vees giving ratios of 2:1, 1:0.8 and 1:3. My lowest speed is about 250 rpm. Embedded in the spindle pulley is a magnet for a hall-effect speed sensor. At 5,000 rpm the motor develops over 1hp which will be enough for my needs.

The controller for the machine is built in a 19" rack which I managed to blag from an old work colleague. The badge on the front was one of my first jobs on the machine. Excuse the labelling on the front - I need some Traffolyte to make some nicely engraved ones.



The drivers are 4.5 amp microstepping drives running at 8 microsteps. The steppers are 23 size 3 N-m. The x and y screws are driven directly whilst the Z axis acme screw is driven via the original 1:2 bevel gear and a 1:4 belt reduction. The power supplies were an Ebay bargain and run at 43v at 9.9 amps. The breakout board came from Hungary and is fully opto isolated.



For finding datums etc it's useful to be able to control the axes manually. An XBox 360 handset is excellent for rough positioning but lacks sensitivity. For very fine control the Contour Shuttlexpress video controller is superb. Both are catered for in Mach3 (my choice of control software).

The marks in the table aren't my doing - they were already there.



Before I finished the machine I built a 4th axis. The spindle is held in relatively massive taper rollers and uses a Harmonic Drive (again from a piece of redundant equipment) which has a 200:1 reduction with negligible backlash. The nose is 'a la Myford' with a 1.25" register and 1.125 x 12tpi thread and 2MT. (I have Myford collets and chucks left over from when I sold my Super 7.) I have yet to do anything useful with it but I'm sure (hope) it will be indispensable.



The last thing I made for it was an auto tool height setter. This interfaces with Mach3 to zero on to the top of a workpiece and then back off to a safe height. The drill in the collet is broken - CNC isn't forgiving of typing mistakes!



Finally a picture of some parts completed on the machine which are for a 3 1/2" gauge Lion loco. These are all in mild steel and are up to 3.2mm thick.



I've not yet tried using a big cutter to test the rigidity of the machine. If it is a problem I can easily brace the machine across the swan-neck. (The other machine didn't have the swan-neck but was in poor condition - or so I thought.)

Even though the basic machine cost very little the drivers, stepper motors, power supplies, motor, software etc etc  soon added up to about £700.

Jobs still to do are to replace the Z axis leadscrew with a 25mm x 5 ballscrew and possibly take some of the weight with a gas strut and improve the sealing to the spindle to make sure that the waste oil goes down the drain tube and not as a line across my clean shirt when I turn the spindle on!

The taper on an ER32 collet is very similar to a ISO30 taper and I have dreams of making an auto tool changer...............

Hope this has been of interest.

Phil.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:51:52 PM by philf »
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 03:53:45 PM »
Nice! I love CNC conversions.

I have questions, if you don't mind  :dremel:

1. I am going to do the X-box controller for my conversion. Hadn't thought about the shuttle express... are those controllers expensive?
2. I would like to know more about the auto tool height setter. In fact, I want to make one. Did you design it yourself or did you use plans?

Again... very nice job!

Eric
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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2012, 04:03:53 PM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:  Now thats a very nicely done CNC conversion, very tidy   Phil

  What CAM software are you using ?

I also would like to no a bit more about the Tool hight setting  doo dad  :dremel:

Those loco parts look cracking .

I am pleased you took the time to post,, good read   :D

Rob

 

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2012, 04:26:46 PM »
Hi Eric,

Shuttlexpress controllers crop up regularly on EBay - I think I paid about £25. New, they're anything from £35 upwards in the UK. They're a dream to use for edge finding.

The height setter is my design - it's very simple. The top is spring loaded to allow for overtravel. (Mach3 will decellerate the motors to stop after seeing the sensor. Stopping instantly might lose steps.)

The drawing was done just for me to make it so isn't very detailed. It's all made in stainless. The three springs give continuity between the platform and the body as the DU bushes don't conduct. I've added a few notes.



One connection goes to the pin shown the other to another pin pressed into the body (not shown on the drawing).

I don't connect these directly to the breakout board. I have a plastic box with a couple of AA batteries, a switch, an LED and an opto-isolator. It's the opto-isolator output which connects to the breakout board. (The earth to my controller is different to the machine so I didn't want to risk blowing anything up.)

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Phil.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:50:11 PM by philf »
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 04:32:38 PM »
Thanks for sharing you design  Phil  :med: 

I am sure i have a Glacier bush suitable for the job  .


Rob

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 04:51:16 PM »
Hi Rob,

I'm using Vectric Cut2d CAM software. It was reasonably priced but has some limitations. I do a roughing cut first with say a 2mm slot drill. For roughing I lie to Cut2d telling it that I'm using a 2.2mm cutter so it cuts just clear of the desired profile. Then I do a finishing cut telling Cut 2d that I'm using the actual 2mm dia cutter. The results have been very pleasing.

I've been considering CNCing the wheels but will need some 3d CAM software - any recommendations? Cut3d would be OK I guess but it's another £200 or so.



Hope the explanation on the height setter I gave to Eric helps. If not, just ask.

Thanks for encouraging me to post something. (And to Craynerd.)

 :beer:

Phil.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:46:34 PM by philf »
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline raynerd

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 05:05:55 PM »
Hi Phil, it is about time you posted this absolute beast of a machine on here. Puts my poor efforts to shame but it is generated enough inspiration for me to get my arse in gear and give cnc a go   :headbang:  Thanks for posting Phil, amazing machine.

PS. does the little height setting guage come apart?
 
Chris

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 05:16:06 PM »
Hi Phil

I thought it may have been  a Vectric product when i noticed the TABs  on your loco parts , Thats the thing with good 3D software its not cheap ,i have looked at the Vectric software  (watched the training videos) it dose look good value for  the money and product support.

I don't no witch loco your building , but i bet buying  wheel castings would cost at least half the cost of the software .  :med:


Rob





Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 05:16:18 PM »
Hi Chris,
 
Yes, the height setter does come apart. The bottom part of the contact is held on to the 1/4" dia post with an M3 countersunk screw.

I'll show you tomorrow.

Cheers.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 05:32:37 PM »
Hi Phil

I thought it may have been  a Vectric product when i noticed the TABs  on your loco parts , Thats the thing with good 3D software its not cheap ,i have looked at the Vectric software  (watched the training videos) it dose look good value for  the money and product support.

I don't no witch loco your building , but i bet buying  wheel castings would cost at least half the cost of the software .  :med:


Rob

Hi Rob,

I'm building a LION. (Used for the Titfield Thunderbolt in the 1953 film). A mate of mine bought the LBSC drawings and is busy doing 3d CAD models of all the parts. I'm therefore making 2 sets of everything I can on the CNC. The wheels are only available in 3 1/2" from one supplier and for two sets they'd be about £200 - you were bob on when you said that a set would cost half the cost of the software.  :thumbup:

LION is the worlds oldest surviving Loco having been built in 1838. It's at the new Museum of Liverpool. The model we're building should look like it did in 1838 not like it does now or how it did in the Titfield Thunderbolt.

Cheers.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 06:10:38 PM »
Hi Phil


Well there you go ,,,,,,,, i would buy the software ,, make three sets and sell one set on Ebay to cover the material costs  :thumbup:

Are you going for cast iron for the wheels?

Interesting project ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, i hope we will be seeing a few photos of the Lion build  :poke: :)

Rob

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 07:35:29 PM »
Phil,
We used to cut loco wheels at the shows till I got fed up with doing them. I'm the only bloke with a 2 - 345 -2 loco  :lol:
They were programmed in Cut2D or VCarve Pro, can't remember but both can do the same job.
We have three on a demo board because everyone says you can see the tool marks, ? 'Cause you can they are cut by a tool ? Ijit's

So we have 3, one as cut, one been sand blasted and one sandblasted and hot blacked.
The sand blasted ones look just like castings and rumour has it Rob Wilson had an orgasm over the black one.  :poke:
John Stevenson

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 04:35:50 AM »
Phil,
We used to cut loco wheels at the shows till I got fed up with doing them. I'm the only bloke with a 2 - 345 -2 loco  :lol:
They were programmed in Cut2D or VCarve Pro, can't remember but both can do the same job.
We have three on a demo board because everyone says you can see the tool marks, ? 'Cause you can they are cut by a tool ? Ijit's

So we have 3, one as cut, one been sand blasted and one sandblasted and hot blacked.
The sand blasted ones look just like castings and rumour has it Rob Wilson had an orgasm over the black one.  :poke:

Hi John,

I've seen one of your wheels being cut at Harrogate. I hoped that cutting them with a ball ended cutter with the code generated from a 3d CAM package with fillets on the spokes would make them look fairly realistic.

I'd like to cut one just to see how practical it is and what the finished wheel looks like. And how long it would take!

I thought of cutting it in 2 1/2d and then turning the taper to the spokes in the lathe (or even turning them in the miller) but then I'm still stuck with sharp cornered spokes - nothing like the original.

I know someone with VCarve Pro - I'll see if he can generate some code for me.

I know it would be much easier to buy the castings but I'd rather spend the money on other things.

:beer:

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 04:58:56 AM »
Phil,
Don't bother with VCarve pro code, it's the same as Cut2D, to go full 3D you need either Aspire [ spendy] or Cut3D.

I did a flywheel as a test to see how fast I could get from thought thru drawing to CAM and then cut it [ 47 minutes but I had to do the design twice as I programmed up for a size of bar I didn't have  :( ]

I used a corner rounding cutter just to trim it up.



Ignore the hole in the middle it was already in the blank.

Now if you milled the bulk of the wheel out, did a goround with a tapered cutter then a rounding cutter you would have the same as a 3D generated one in less time.
3D programs are looooooooooooong.
John Stevenson

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 06:41:47 AM »
Phil,
Don't bother with VCarve pro code, it's the same as Cut2D, to go full 3D you need either Aspire [ spendy] or Cut3D.

I did a flywheel as a test to see how fast I could get from thought thru drawing to CAM and then cut it [ 47 minutes but I had to do the design twice as I programmed up for a size of bar I didn't have  :( ]

I used a corner rounding cutter just to trim it up.

Ignore the hole in the middle it was already in the blank.

Now if you milled the bulk of the wheel out, did a goround with a tapered cutter then a rounding cutter you would have the same as a 3D generated one in less time.
3D programs are looooooooooooong.

Thanks for that John,

Aspire is well beyond my pocket. I'll have to save up for Cut3d methinks. Have you tried any other affordable 3d CAM packages?

I modelled the wheel in ViaCad which is a: very affordable and b: very easy to use - did you ever get to try it? A pity they don't do a matching CAM package.

I'd wondered about going round the spokes with a rounding cutter but I could only do that in 2d and all the cutters I have are too big to get anywhere near the corners where the spoke meets the rim.

When I've finished my painting duties (front door has been bare wood for years and I need to earn some Brownie points) I'll have a go to see how near I can get in 2d.

Cheers.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 12:34:10 PM »
An update to my machine.

Since I first got the CNC running I realised that keeping with the ACME screw for the Z Axis was never going to be satisfactory.

The stepper drove the screw via a 1:4 timing belt drive reduction and then a 1:2 hypoid bevel gear. I had problems with speed and backlash.



I recently bought a Steinmeyer 25mm x 5 pitch C5 zero backlash ballscrew off eBay for £70 which was a bargain.

First job was to design in the ballscrew. I wanted to make a unit which could be easily fitted in the bosses for the Z nut and the Z bearing.



It was too long (850mm and I needed 370mm) and neither end was machined.

I used my home made toolpost grinder to shorten the screw. (Before anyone says anything - I did cover the lathe and thoroughly cleaned it afterwards even though I knew no abrasive particles had got through.) The ballscrew was protected with cling film.



Because the ends of the screw were plain I had to put a centre in one end so I put one end in a collet and supported the other end in the fixed steady so that I could face and centre it.



Using a carbide tool I turned down the screw. The screw was hardened to a depth of about 3mm and the surface finish was excellent. Once I got through to the tough core the finish deteriorated and I ended up using a HSS tool to finish the diameter for the bearings.



At Harrogate I treated myself to a set of external screwcutting inserts and a holder. They made a neat job of the 15mm x 1 pitch thread.



I wondered about trying to cut a keyway in the screw for the pulley but the screw was so hard I decided just to machine a couple of flats at 120 degrees and to make matching tapped holes in the pulley.





The complete assembly:



And in the machine:



I've lost about 75mm of Z travel as a consequence of the mod but hopefully have done away with backlash and I know that I can run it at three times the speed of the ACME. (It would probably run faster but 1,000mm/min is fast enough for me.)

Final job is to make a curtain out of something flexible to stop stray chips getting on to the ballscrew.

Then I must get back to work on my clock and my loco.

Phil.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:26:43 PM by philf »
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 04:43:04 PM »
Very nicely done Phil  :bow: :bow: :bow: cracking job :thumbup:

Rob

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 05:35:30 PM »
Very nicely done Phil  :bow: :bow: :bow: cracking job :thumbup:

Rob

Thanks Rob.

How's your machine progressing?

Nice little T & C grinder you've just acquired.

I have a Quorn T & C which was bequeathed to me by a mate.

I've just been watching a video of someone using his CNC mill to sharpen the flutes on end mills with a 4th axis - hmmmm...............



This guy has done some excellent CNC videos.

:beer:

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline Meldonmech

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 02:50:55 AM »
Hi Phil,

                  Smart  conversion, well modded, are you going to cut your clock plates on the machine?


                                                   Cheers  David

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 03:18:36 AM »
Hi Phil,

                  Smart  conversion, well modded, are you going to cut your clock plates on the machine?


                                                   Cheers  David

Hi David,

That's the plan. I will also cross out all the wheels on it. I'll cut the wheel teeth using my 4th axis and a fly cutter (I'll cut the tooth form for the flycutter on the CNC.)

Cheers.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline Meldonmech

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 09:26:54 AM »
Hi Phil,

           Brilliant, sounds like the rewards for all your efforts have been worth while, you will save so much time, and crossing out can be so dreary. Machining your fly cutter as well, that should give you a perfect form. This has taken your clock making to a new level, very interesting.

                                                          Cheers David

                                                   

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 04:10:10 PM »
Quote
Thanks Rob.

How's your machine progressing?

Nice little T & C grinder you've just acquired.

I have a Quorn T & C which was bequeathed to me by a mate.

Hi Phil

My CNC  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, its going very very slowly , I MAY get back onto it at the end of the mount . I keep getting distracted  :palm:

Yes its a cracker , it would have made a good pair with your engraver , before you CNC it  :med:

How do you fined your Quorn ,do you use it much ? 

Rob



Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 04:40:25 PM »

Hi Phil

My CNC  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, its going very very slowly , I MAY get back onto it at the end of the mount . I keep getting distracted  :palm:

Yes its a cracker , it would have made a good pair with your engraver , before you CNC it  :med:

How do you fined your Quorn ,do you use it much ? 

Rob

Hi Rob.

I had noticed that you're easily distracted from getting on with your CNC!  :lol: :lol:

I've used the Quorn a fair bit for making and sharpening engraving cutters and the ends of slot drills. I've not yet made anything to be able to use the Quorn to sharpen the flutes of end mills.

I've had a go at turning a slot drill into a ball ended cutter but it isn't easy and I haven't had a useable tool yet.  :(

I also have a bastardised Union T&C grinder which I have used to sharpen flutes and have made an attachment for sharpening taps. When I made a new base for my lathe topslide I used the Union to mod a 45 degree dovetail cutter to 55 degree so I could machine the base to match the top. (I did take a midges off the top so that they were both the same.)

I must get some engraving laminate so that I can make decent labels for my CNC control. Dymo labels look a bit naff.

I've had 4 engraving machines and still have another Alexander (minus all the pantograph parts which went to the tip) which I hope one day might become the basis for a surface grinder.

 :beer: (Might open a bottle now!)

Phil
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2013, 04:10:54 AM »
Hi Phil

 :lol: :lol: yes I do have a poor attention span   :lol:


You mentioned a surface grinder , would you be making a CNC surface grinder ?


Rob

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2013, 11:54:32 AM »
Hi Phil

 :lol: :lol: yes I do have a poor attention span   :lol:


You mentioned a surface grinder , would you be making a CNC surface grinder ?


Rob

Rob,

I did notice talk of a forge! Anything so you don't have to work on the CNC!  :lol: :lol:

The surface grinder will probably be very manual with no automatic feed or traverse. However, I do have plenty of suitable ballscrews so it may be worth thinking about. I wouldn't risk a powered z feed in case anything went wrong.

Off on holiday for 2 weeks tomorrow so no workshop time.

I did a bit of experimental engraving for my cycling club using the CNC with a home made diamond drag engraver. (I didn't make the diamond before anyone asks!) I was very pleased with result and it will save the club a fair bit.



Cheers.

Phil.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 02:24:52 PM by philf »
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
Hi Phil

The engraving looks very sharp/crisp  ,nice one  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

 :lol: :lol: dose it show that I am dodging my CNC project  :Doh:

Hope you have a great holiday  :beer: dont forget me rock  :poke:


Rob

Offline timby

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2019, 06:05:41 AM »
This is how I found Mad Modder,  I should have posted earlier.

  I used to build  Alexander Engravers  and I may have built that one, is there a date on the plate?

One of my first jobs was fitting the name plates, it was a nightmare for a beginner like me,    the drill would sometimes wander,  or cut oversize, or sometimes the PK drive screws would break.

The "motling"   looks like mine but we were actually encourage to keep it uniform.


If I was younger I would have loved to do those CNC conversions.

Offline philf

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2019, 06:41:22 AM »
Hi Timby,

Sadly there's no serial number plate only a Metropolitan Vickers plant number 14975. I have another but that's also lacking the serial number plate. I bought the two for £100. The one I converted to CNC had no noticeable wear on the slides.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline timby

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Re: Alexander Engraver to CNC Miller Conversion
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2019, 07:06:58 AM »
Hi Philf,

Thank for getting back to me,  I went along to see the original  factory  last year and I found it had recently been demolished.