Author Topic: Lister 6/1 Genset  (Read 43544 times)

Offline Darren

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Lister 6/1 Genset
« on: January 30, 2009, 03:15:36 PM »
Hi, Just bought a Lister 6/1 genset,

No idea of condition, price was right so if need be it will be stripped and rebuilt.

I've seen so many of these last of late, some running, some sat in fields, some out on the side of the road !! And a few other beautiful types of engines all fully restored. All in my home village. But could I get anyone to part with one.... :bang:

Finally I have, well he did have six of the 6/1's plus a few other types knocking around the "garden" would you believe...
Collect on Sunday....

Oh and I've seen a few cracking workshops too. Can't say I've made any friends though as peeps tend to be a bit suspicious of starngers ooin' an' arin' at their prized machinery..!!
Quite right too...I'd be the same

This is the type
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=q0VCoX9L75I

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tQZ2Fds-924&feature=related

Darren
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 03:25:43 PM »
Great Find Darren  :thumbup:

Look forward to the rebuild.

Cheers
 :wave:

Stew

A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 06:07:31 PM »
Bit of a day out, all of about two miles away  :lol: collecting the lister.

Here you can see the one we've picked out from the three you can see in this picture. There were other engines out of shot too...

Meet Emyr, my helper for the day...



Now let me tell you how much these weigh,
A lot more than I had imagined !! These things are seriously heavy. Two of us couldn't even pick the genny up never mind anything else.
Lots of heaving, pry bars, rollers and winches and we had the bugger cornered....

Chap was kind enough to lend me his trailer, the winch on it really helped enormously..





We let the trailer tilt backwards to let gravity help us. The engine is on a small trolley and restrained by the trailers winch, Letting it down slowly and gently was the key.



Now she's safely down and we can relax......






« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 10:08:39 PM by Darren »
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 08:53:29 PM »
I'm a bit jealous of you there Darren.

People here in the states would go crazy over something like that. They'd use it to generate their own power. By the way is that a diesel engine?

Bernd
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 03:14:17 AM »
Hi Darren

Good find pleased to see you got the weighty problem sorted  :wave: it's all about planning getting the right kit and taking it slowly great job  :clap:

Now get stripping it down  :poke:

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 04:30:00 AM »
Darren,

Lovely find, enjoy the rebuild.

My nephew used to restore old engines like that, ended up with about 20 of them, all different makes and models. Did the rounds at the steam rallies.

If ever one of the flywheels falls off, don't throw it away, I can make lots of little engines out of it.  :dremel:  Mind you, with it being a 'modern' engine, it just might be made of cast steel.


John

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 02:24:47 PM »
I believe they are cast iron John as they can crack if you hit them too hard trying to get them off.
All the same, keep ya beady eyes off em  :lol:

What a diff from the glorious sunshine of yesterday to the bitter snap of today. We've got several inches of snow outside and the roads are blocked here. (too many hills to drive in snow)

So not a lot done. But playing last night I can report that the engine is not seized, turns very freely and has compression.  The bore looks good as well, no scores anyway.
A few things were stuck fast. namely the rocker cover hand nut, the compression changer screw, the valve lifter solenoid and linkages and the fuel pump linkages.
A good soak in penetration oil overnight and all is now free except the fuel pump linkage. Actually I'm not sure if this is seized as I don't really now how it works, it might be OK.
After many hours scouring the net for info I'm still at a loss....oh well, I'll prob have to take it off and strip it down to see how it works.

If I can figure the fuel pump it'll most likely run once I can supply some fuel to it.

No pic's, it's too cold and bitter outside to go and take any !!

Darren

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Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 06:52:44 PM »
It seems one of the most difficult tasks with the Lister CS is removing the flywheel gib keys. They can become pretty stuck over time.

Inspired by this commercial gismo I decided to make my own. They state 10mm thick steel so I followed suit.



Starting with a piece of scrap it was cut into a basic shape using the bandsaw and chopsaw.





Setting it up in the four jaw chuck using my improvised center/punch.



Biggest drill I have 13mm



Then bored to size. The crankshaft is 2" and the gib protrudes 200 thou or 0.2" so I bored to 2.2"



Reversed the chucks jaws and turned the outer edge to just under 4" and marked the approx center



Marked and punched ready to drill and tap three holes for a 10mm thread.







This gib key has a head in order to help with removal.....that's a joke in itself. We need to get our puller over this so a slot needs milling to facilitate this.



The work/puller now being round and difficult to hold in a vice I held it down with a single bolt and flat bar. The plywood is sacrificial to allow machine just beyond the full thickness of the puller body.



That's all done now and ready to go. Install some 10mm bolts and fit over crankshaft



Turn puller into position



Tighten bolts and bend puller. Yep, that's right, it bent like butter. The Gib key didn't even break a sweat....!!



Oh dear, that didn't work, :bugeye:



What to do next?

Make a stronger puller, thicker, much thicker??
Maybe with this, not sure what it is, it's not rolled looks sorta cast to me. I know it's heavy I can barely carry it. Might be a tad to big for my lathe though.



Question for the board, would cast iron be suitable for use as a puller? If it is cast iron. I'd hate to cut this up unnecessarily.


Edit: 20/02/09
I have received a complaint for this posting from the manufactures from whom I sourced this idea.

There was never any intention on my part to upset anyone or discredit any commercial products.
I loosely based my efforts around their puller design and made it from 10mm as stated on their web page. Mine failed by bending under pressure.
BUT...I am talking about my efforts, nobody elses.

Since my posting they have now updated their website to indicate that they have increased their tool material to 13mm thickness, and then again to a current size of 18mm. This would indicate they were having the same results as I.

However, with a stock material of 18mm I would have no reason from my own personal experience to doubt that this would now be more than man enough to tackle the task in hand.

If you read my further posts down the page you will see that I came up with a slightly different solution. It's just one way to tackle the job, these engines have been around for many decades and no doubt there are many ways to skin a cat.

If anyone has been offended as a result of these posting I do sincerely apologise, it was never intended.

Best wishes
Darren







« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 12:16:51 PM by Darren »
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Offline rleete

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 07:24:24 PM »
Probably not.  Cast will crack.  Maybe double up the thickness (2 rings) to help avoid the bending?

Make what you did before, but put two bolts on either side of the key.  You don't need them evenly spaced, just two right on either side of the point you're pulling.

If you have access to one, use a pulley puller over the ring.  Put one jaw of the puller right behind the key.  Tighten, then tap the end with a hammer.  Rinse and repeat.

Edit: after looking again, I'd make a ring slightly larger (once again, 2 thichness for strength?), and put two bolts in.  One goes right over the key (like it shows in the first pic), so it's putting pressure right on the key.  Another 180 degrees from that, to keep the ring square to the shaft.  After tightening a bit, tap the key with a small hammer.  Tap, don't bash it!  You're trying to induce vibration to break the bond, not whack it out of shape.  Tighten some more, tap.  Slowly work it out.  Once it starts to give, it should slide right out.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 07:29:43 PM by rleete »
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bogstandard

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 07:28:39 PM »
Darren,

Rleete got in a few seconds before me, but I am not going to modify the post, some bits are just repeated.

Very much doubt if the cast iron would hold, it can take compression but not distortion. It will just snap.

The normal method for removal of tapered keys is a pair of wedges wacked home behind the key head  :hammer:
 
You might be able to use a small bar with a tapped hole either side of the head and use that to jack it out. Your method left too much material between the bolt holes, so it bent.

That sometimes doesn't work, so what you have to do is drill down the centre bit of the key, to allow it to collapse slightly and try again with the extraction process. Maybe you could try drilling before wacking in the tapers. If you have already broken the head off, you can tap the hole out and use a long bolt and a large heavy block with a hole thru it as a slide hammer.

They can sometimes be a real ba**ard to get out if they have been in there any length of time, and you just have to do the best you can at times, without damaging the surrounding area. Sometimes you can free them off by knocking the flywheel further onto the shaft, but you have to be very careful you don't damage the flywheel, otherwise I will have enough material for little engines for many years.

Tapered keys are classed as sacrificial, and you just cut and file up a new one when you are ready to assemble. The dimensions can be found from this chart

http://www.ecs.umass.edu/mie/labs/mda/dlib/mech_comp/keys/taper_key.html

John

Offline rleete

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 07:33:28 PM »
Rleete got in a few seconds before me, but I am not going to modify the post, some bits are just repeated.

Great minds think alike? :wave:
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 07:47:16 PM »
Thanks Guys,

I did think about drifts, but after reading up about them it seems that they can take the gib heads off a bit too easily. Mind you that's not to say my contraption won't do the same.

I kept one bolt next to the gib, I can see now two either side would have been better as you say.
So, find some more material and make a thicker puller then.

I'm only pulling it off so I can clean it all down to re paint. Maybe I should leave be.
If it ain't broke sort of thing.....

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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 07:55:51 PM »
Just a thought gent's.... Heat and loads of WD derivative, leave for a few days heat again and try it hot and as stated tap it between turns of the bolts.....?

I know heat can distort etc, but localised  (oxy/acetylene)  it nearly always does the trick on stuck car componants!

Then there is always the BBH for the last resort :hammer: ..... (Bloody Big Hammer! :D )



Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 08:00:20 PM »
Hi Ralph,

Nice idea, but I have read heat and spinning cast iron is a no-no. Heat can change the iron enough for it to let go at speed at a later date apparently.

70kg at 1000 rpm could be interesting?

I don't know how true this theory is though?

Apart from that this is some lump to heat with lots of cooling surfaces.
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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 08:13:21 PM »
I was thinking more of heating the shaft and gib not the wheel.... That's a big puppy as you say!

No issue, maybe a week in WD... Or even diesel for that matter?!  Couldn't hurt!?




Ralph.

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bogstandard

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 12:19:07 AM »
Darren,

Nothing spectacular required for the puller, just get as thick a material as you can to sit in the slot.

If you can, get the bolt hole centres on the same line as the top of the key. That will ensure that you are getting the maximum force onto the key head and the shear load is as low down on the head as possible.

C-o-C


John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 03:36:31 AM »
Hi Darren

Can't add to anything chaps have said aleardy

Just keep trying different things and you'll win in the end

Good luck.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »
Thanks guys for the food guys, I can see where I went wrong. I'll have another go later when I have sourced some more steel to fabricate. I only need a little bit but I just aint got it right now  :bang:

But not wanting to sit still I have tackled another area....next post coming right up... :D
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Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 06:53:51 PM »
Keywords for non members outside the forum to find this post,( Lister CS 6/1 fuel pump service repair strip clean and rebuild repair )


Today I decided to take a better look at the fuel pump. I had concerns over this unit as I couldn't move the rack which governs the speed of the engine. Essentially it was seized.

I have scoured the net for info over the last few days and although there is information out there, none of it is very clear to a novice like myself. I even found the manufactures exploded diagrams somewhat misleading and still didn't explain how to actually strip and service these units.

So, the best way to learn is to strip the unit down and do some exploring....
However, armed with little information it has taken me all day and evening to strip clean and re-assemble this unit. Now I've done it, and figured out how it does it's job it would be a fairly simple matter to tackle this again in under an hour or so.

Having seen many, far too many, questions on this subject on various engine forums "ALL" of which gave little help and no pictures I have decided in the Madmodder spirit to put a post together with lots of pictures. We like pictures here, but in this case I'm hoping that it may save someone the grief of going at it blind.

If you are not into engines (yeah right!!) then the rest might bore you,

My Seized Lister fuel pump....this is a Bryce BOAB unit, yours may be a CAV unit but from what I can tell they are very similar.



On the bench, this is a back view showing the piston cylinder locating screw 4



Manufactures exploded diagram, Refer to this for part no's



First things to take off are the top fuel pipe fitting 20 followed by 21,17,19,16, (note, 16 it two parts making up a none return valve, be very careful not to drop and loose the smaller part) and the circlip 14 at the bottom along with the bucket 13. The rest should fall out, be careful and try your best to note what goes where. Best to take lots of pictures for reference.
However, if your unit is anything like mine all the internals will be stuck fast and you'll have no idea which bit to tease out first. This makes disassembly rather difficult for fear of breaking something. As I said earlier it took me hours to get all the bits out. Not because any of them were difficult, but more because of fear of damaging something.

These bits should fall out the bottom, in this order, collet retainer 12, spring 11, and spring seat 10.



Followed by these, pinion 9 and piston 3. This is where the manufactures diagram becomes really misleading as item 3 is actually two separate parts. The piston which has a helix machined into it and the piston bore which has the fuel delivery bore in it. One comes out through the bottom and the other comes out the top. The piston bore does not move and is fixed in place by a locating screw 4 at the rear of the casting. The piston and bore have a very close tolerance and therefore subject to seizure at the slightest provocation. This is what was seized on my unit and not the rack 6 and pinion 9 as originally suspected.
This is why you should not force the rack side to side with a hammer or some such implement in an effort to free things up.



If these bits do not fall out, or can't be easily pulled out then you need to remove the non return valve item 16 next. This might not be easy as the sealing washer may be holding it a bit tight. But it should come out. Be careful not to damage the internal bore of this item or you may have problems in keeping pressure at the fuel injector when running the engine.



Once this out out you will be able to see the piston inside the bore. They look like one unit but they are not. You can now push the piston out of it's bore from the top using a drift pref a wooden dowel. Do not use metal. It you damage the bore your pump will be ruined and not longer serviceable.

If you can't remove the non return valve to gain access to the piston top you will have to remove the piston from the bottom.
Remember, if this is the case the spring and retainer will still be in place making access difficult. You will have to flip the spring retainer with a screwdriver. This is fairly easy to do, but try not to score the casting. It's not critical, but best be careful all the same.



After removing the retainer, spring and seat, you should be able to pull the piston out. Remember, this is the bit that is seized, mine was really tight and took some effort.



Here you can see the piston with the machined helix. Note which way this fits into the bore. Get it 180 deg out and your engine will be spinning at full pelt with no way of slowing it down. The governor will not work at all. The manufactures instructions state the two items (piston and pinion) are marked for orientation. Yep, mine was, only both ways....really helpful I must say.
If you look at the helix and the hole in the piston bore the two should line up when reassembling. That is the helix should face the front of the pump housing.
Indecently mine was back to front, suggesting someone had stripped this before at some time. I've yet to run this engine, so a good job I found this !!

So, now the piston is out, the pinion will fall out too along with the rack 6. Watch you don't drop it !!

That's it, all disassembled.

It turned out that my unit was only gummed up with fuel residue/varnish. A simple clean and reassemble and all was well with everything working as it should.

Ready to go back on the engine




Hopefully that didn't send you to sleep   :whip: and helps someone sometime.
I could write a re-assembly with how to line it all up, but it's not that hard with a bit of common.







« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 07:25:48 PM by Darren »
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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 11:21:04 PM »
Beautiful writeup Darren,

I am sure that over the coming years, once the search engines have picked it up, that will become a well used reference article.

It is also a good reminder to label our posts correctly, it makes it easier for other people to find it.

Well done :clap:

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 01:04:14 PM »
Thanks John,

It's the first time I have worked on a diesel fuel pump/governor and although nothing was particularly difficult the hardest part was knowing what exactly was inside and how it came out.
I'm hoping my post reads ok and someone will be able to follow it. Of course it makes much more sense if you have a pump in front of you to relate the information with. All should hopefully be quite clear. Anyways, as usual just a picture or two can really help.  :D
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 01:17:54 PM »
Spot On Darren  :thumbup:  :clap:

I'm certain there will plenty of people out there who will find that write up very useful


Cheers
 :wave:
Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset Water Coolant Pipework and fittings
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2009, 01:37:06 PM »
Lister 6/1 Genset Water Coolant Pipework and fittings

Both the inlet and outlet water coolant fittings need some attention and a good tidying up. This is the hot outlet flange to the cooling tank/radiator.
Quite a lot of crud build up around the internal threads that needs removing.



This is the inlet flange and what is left of the original pipework, Looking a bit sorry for itself.



Both units now removed for further inspection.



I used to clean this sort of thing on motorbikes many years ago by hand. It can be quite hard work !!
But now having a lathe will really make light of this. The crud is a mixture of rust and old paper gasket truly welded in place. Glad I'm not doing this by hand  :D



After removing around 30thou we are starting to see some nice clean metal. Although there has been some deeper corrosion/pitting. A little more to go.



This is the other flange with the bit of pipe on it. I shortened the pipe and it's inside the lathe chuck. You can see this flange has much deeper pitting and will need to be removed to ensure a proper seal when re-fitted.



The two flanges now finished and looking a lot tidier. I also used a boring bar to clean the rust crud from inside the pipe and to the threads on the other unit. Once cleaned to the threads a scribe was used to pick the rust within the threads themselves. It's looking better but a 1" BSP tap will be needed to clean them up properly.



You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2009, 02:31:05 PM »
Darren

I think I may have a 1" BSP tap, my shops upside down at the moment with the mill move as soon as I get sorted I'll have a look for it, if I have got one you can borrow it with pleasure.

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

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Re: Lister 6/1 Genset
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2009, 03:18:24 PM »
That looks like fun Darren.... It brings back memories of seeing  "how it works"  on customers cars    :bugeye:

 ... We didn't always have diagrams, so we just had to work it out and remember/work out where everything came from.... Good Job I've got a bit of "The Knack"!!  :lol:   (Clueless? see"he has the knack" post in the water cooler!)

Looks like your tearing into it anyway   :dremel:

I love being able to clean up old parts like that.... Makes you feel all happy   :D


I also think I have a tap if you don't and Stew can't find his?  I'd have to have a bit of a dig too.... At least to see if I had the correct size?!  I purchased a whole load of old taps on e-blag a long time ago and a few large BSP taps were in there.... My dad borrowed one a while back for a job at work... Seemed to do the trick!... I just can't remeber if it went back in the box o bits???  :scratch:



Keep us updated,



Ralph.

I know what I know and need to know more!!!