Author Topic: Some help buying a new lathe please? (Read 34938 times)

raynerd · « **on:** November 11, 2012, 02:20:14 PM »

After a short break from engineering due to normal life duties, I`m now back on track again. My workshop has been tidied over the weekend and I`m nearly ready to begin. I`ve got my nice boxford model A which has been a real work horse and has helped me get going in this hobby. Although I do have a nice little Boley watchmakers lathe, it really is small and with no cross slide, I am forced only to use a graver.

I put an advert on homeworkshop the other day for a little clockmakers lathe and a chap came back to me with a Toyo ML1 for £300.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/toyo/page3.html

It looks a cracking little lathe, a bit more than I can afford to pay but I`m happy to stretch to it if I can get some early Christmas money of my wife!!

However, I`m posting here for advice. Far too often I have jumped at machinery in excitement without thinking of the work required to get it going or the limitations of its use. I only want this lathe for small work, mainly clock sizes parts, arbors and wheel collets. Sure, I can already hear some of you telling me that my Boxford is capable of small work but when you sat at your workbench, I want a more comfortable machine than the big boxford to tackle these jobs. My main concern is the lack of accessories. It looks a well made machine but I`m concerned that I will miss the “missing” accessories. It comes with only a tool post, a 3 jaw chuck, live center and tailstock chuck. It doesn`t have a power feed but none of these machines do. It does not have the collet set which was made for this machine and it doesn`t have a faceplate. The headstock is an unconventional 1.5MT and the chuck is held in position with 3 alan bolts. A quick google brings up nothing in terms of accessories for this machine being sold so in my opinion, it looks as though the chance of getting parts is zero. But could a faceplate be made? Could an additional chuck be adapted to fit this machine? - even if this is the case, it starts becoming a project in itself.
Your thoughts would be really welcomed. I could not afford any more than £300 and when you take into account budget, it seems like for this money I`m getting a lovely machine. It just concerns me that I may end up with limitations in its use further down the line due to lack of accessories! Like I`ve just said, a Cowells with full suit of accessories would suit me just fine, but then I don`t have £2500+

Look forward to the replies! Just thought I`d ask before I dive into it.
Chris

EDIT: forgot to say that the standard hand wheels are not zeroing and the chap has made some new hand wheels which just need marking out. these are included.

philf · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2012, 02:39:48 PM »

Chris,

I think you've already really talked yourself out of this one. I think you'd need a top slide for tapered arbors. 1.5MT collets - probably as rare as rocking horse droppings. (Being polite!) Even a 1.5MT centre might be difficult to find.

Chucks and backplates wouldn't be difficult - the Hobbymat had a similar arrangement and fitting other chucks was no problem. Just turning and drilling and tapping clamp holes required - no screwcutting.

I still haven't come across the missing parts for the compound for your Boley.

Phil.

raynerd · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2012, 02:45:59 PM »

Hi Phil

I don`t know about talking myself out but my message certainly had a negative vibe about it.

Usually I get very excited and dive into buying something. With this I`m just trying to step back and think of the negatives before plowing ahead as I normally do and realizing the limitations afterwards.

It still looks a great machine for £300. You are totally right that the likelihood of ever getting any collets is close to zero. Perhaps the fact this only has one chuck is enough to leave it alone as well?

Jo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2012, 02:48:34 PM »

Chris,

The price seems high. The taper in the nose will be a pain. Yes you can make everything you need but how much time do you want to spend on kitting it out?

I have seen Perris (early Cowells) lathes go for as little as £300 with many more accessories than the one you show. I paid £700 for my Cowells and it came with 3 jaw, 4 jaw independent, 2 face plates, dividing head, indexing head, vertical slide, collet chuck, full set of collets, steadies. Bargains are out there, even on Fleabay Cowell's are selling for around £500 for a basic machine with three jaw and four jaw chucks.

Jo

fixit · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2012, 12:26:35 PM »

Chris
whats wrong with your Taig ! Myself and many people have made clocks on them and when you get used to it
it is 'very' acurate as good as the one you are thinking of, also its very easy to make accesories for and the main thing is that you also have a mill for gear cutting. i would stick to looking for boley bits then you can get in to pocket watches.

Just a thought if you are thinking of disposing of your taig bits please let me know

Best regards Steve

NickG · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2012, 01:14:44 PM »

Chris, how about a sherline the little mill I had was great for small stuff. Or are there any proxon in that range? Just a couple of thoughts into the mix

raynerd · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:26:19 PM »

Hi fixit, yes, I keep buying second hand and getting one that has been a workhorse.... think I`ve just learnt my lesson and trying not to make a bad mistake again. I`m in catch 22 where I want a new lathe but can`t afford one yet second hand, I have in the past purchased out of excitement rather than sensibly thinking of the condition and accessories.

I had a Cowells offered today , more than I was wanting to pay but again with very few accessories - practically nothing but the lathe a 3 jaw and top slide with tool post. Looks a cracker but I again need to find out if the new accessories will fit...then being new, could I even afford the accessories!

Chris

andyf · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:30:03 PM »

Check the spindle nose thread on the Cowells, Chris. Modern ones are M14x1, but M14x1.5 was used on earlier models, and I think it's getting hard to find things (faceplate, 4-jaw, collet chuck etc) in that size.

Andy

Jo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2012, 04:49:29 PM »

M14 * 1.5mm taps are readily available, which means with your boxford you can make all the adapters for chucks you will need. You will need to knock up some short morse tapers for the various drill chucks etc.

I paid £30 for a cowells 14mm * 1.5mm collet chuck plus all eight collets, from a well known second hand tool dealer only 4 months ago

so don't let the old thread worry you. Bargains are out there! The later M14 * 1 nose means you can use Unimat accessories but if you get that modern a Cowells for the money you are talking about I will be jealous.

Jo

Fergus OMore · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:04:10 PM »

err Sparking Plug threads?

doubleboost · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:17:22 PM »

Are plugs not 14 / 1.25
John

Fergus OMore · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:30:30 PM »

John,
Surprisingly, this 'information' came from a well known supplier some time ago.

Well, I have a few plugs from various tooling and a MJ-189. Will see- but it's late. Came down from the Cairngorms an hour or so ago- hence the 'Fergus o'More' thing.
Meantime. thanks

N

raynerd · « **Reply #12 on:** November 13, 2012, 08:54:49 AM »

hi guys

The cowells ME is offered is for £375 and is the older model with the more open gearing/belting with a M14 x 1.5 thread.

So any more info advice welcome... still a good buy or not? As I said, other than a 3 jaw, tool post and top slide, no other real accessories. It is about £100 more than I can afford but if it will last me for a good while to come, I`ll stretch.
So Jo, you are saying I could also get a collet set to fit this for very little money?

Chris

Jo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:18:04 AM »

No I am saying that if you keep your eyes open and are willing to haggle

you can get things for silly money.

One of my friends decided to fit a ER collet chuck to his Cowells, he seems very happy with it. All he needed was a backplate which like me he made himself using one of the sets of chinese M14 * 1.5mm tap sets.

Does it have the change wheels? If not they are expensive if you have a mad desire to do thread cutting.

Jo

joegib · « **Reply #14 on:** November 13, 2012, 03:54:21 PM »

Just a couple of points:

1. You said in your opening post — "I only want this lathe for small work, mainly clock sizes parts, arbors and wheel collets". Now I know sweet fanny adams about clockmaking but my impression is that the horology guys favour a high top spindle speed for certain purposes. If that's right, is the Cowells 90ME gonna hack it for you? Its top speed is 880rpm as against 3000rpm for the Toyo. Just saying ...

2. The Toyo M1 does have limited taper-turning capability via the swiveling headstock (like the Unimat).

3. If you've got a Boxford A, chomping out a faceplate for the Toyo from a 4" disc of alloy or cast iron seems like a fairly trivial exercise. I only say this because I cobbled a Toyo ML1 3-jaw chuck to a Cowells machine and didn't find it difficult.

4. Collets are a definite problem. However, this Canadian guy has made an ER16 chuck for his ML210:

http://toolingaround.ca/era.html

Big caveat here — I don't know whether the ML210 has the same spindle nose profile as the ML1 so this may not be feasible for the latter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the Cowells90ME — I acquired one around 1990 for much the same reason as others here, to do some kitchen table top work on cold winter evenings. But I've sometimes fretted about its low speed so I wonder whether it'll meet your needs. It's not for nothing that Cowells have a quite separate model — the 90CW — aimed at clockmakers.

Joe

raynerd · « **Reply #15 on:** November 13, 2012, 04:04:24 PM »

I`ve been offered it now for £350 and I`m considering it ...

the M14 x 1.5 thread seems unusual and rare - RDG seems to stock M14 x 1 faceplates and chucks off the shelf.

It is in nice working order so requires little attention and I think with the 3 jaw, I`m all sorted to do some turning right from the start. I`d need a little faceplate but like Jo says, I can make one! My only concern would be the accuracy of turning up a faceplate for an additional chuck or collets.

raynerd · « **Reply #16 on:** November 13, 2012, 04:10:43 PM »

Joegib - we were typing at the same time!

Thanks for your message, you make some very very valid points.

The one thing I would say regarding the cowells is that I`m not using it for wheel cutting - I have a little horizontal Rawyler mill for that. I`ll just be using it for turning up arbors, wheel collets and such... just small turning jobs rather than doing it on my Boxford.

Joegib, I would actually agree that some aspects of the Toyo excite me more but the Cowells is the right size and although the M14 x 1.5 looks difficult to come by, it does look more common than the Toyo headstock...

hummm tricky ...

BillTodd · « **Reply #17 on:** November 13, 2012, 05:13:26 PM »

It's no great difficulty single-pointing those threads Chris, so if you need something made, just shout.

Bill

narrowgauger · « **Reply #18 on:** November 13, 2012, 10:24:06 PM »

Hi There

the Toyo lathe will be superb quality with long durability. we have a Toyo 210 lathe & a 210 milling machine in commenrcial use for over 30 years and both are still in perfect order. (as are our other 2 Proxxon lathes & milling machines) However the capacity will be limited.

for parts keep in mind that the later Proxxon 210's are in fact Toyo's made for Proxxon. therefore all parts are available from Proxxon albeit at a price.

we also have (currently under rebuilding) an old Cowells lathe similar to the one you are looking at. more capacity, yet a simple machine but....... parts are more expensive compared to Proxxon/Toyo.

if it were my money I would look for a Proxxon 230 lathe as the best option. Excellent machine with great capability and far superior to the Taig or Cowells at the price.

contact me at themodelworks@ozemail.com.au if you are interested in a Proxxon 230 lathe and/or mill since we might be willing to dispose of one of our units.

have fun
Bernard

caskwith · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2012, 03:57:02 AM »

Both the lathes you mention seem to suffer from some serious drawbacks. If I were you I would hold off for a while unless you are in depsarate need of another lathe. I waited until the right lathe came up and I got a Proxxon 230 on ebay for £250, came with all the included tooling and extras are easy to buy from axminster. I made some of my own bits and pieces to suit and I am very happy.

Jo · « **Reply #20 on:** November 14, 2012, 04:31:06 AM »

I am beginning to think that there could be a market for Cowells 14mm * 1.5mm backplates. They are embarisingly easy to make (if, like me, you have the tap set).

I like the little Proxxon 210 lathe and did seriously look at it but both myself and a collegue had problems with proxxon electrics/motors. Has anyone else had problems?

Jo

NickG · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2012, 06:46:16 PM »

Is this any good? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EMCO-unimat-3-model-makers-lathe-/290813129334?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item43b5d03276

Jo · « **Reply #22 on:** November 15, 2012, 02:43:43 AM »

At that price it is a gift, no wonder it has not met it's reserve.

Jo

Meldonmech · « **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2012, 11:15:32 AM »

Hi Chris,
A few years ago John Wilding wrote a series of articles building various clocks on a variety of small lathes. One of which was the Toyo, all the lathes he used he achieved good results, but all were underpowered. He ended up buying a 2nd hand ML7. The most important issue in clock making is reducing friction, and in many cases this is caused by eccentricity of rotating mating parts. To reduce these problems for instance a gear blank turned on a lathe using a chuck, should be transferred to a dividing head which has the same nose as the lathe to ensure the gear to be cut is concentric. You are probably aware of the problem. I made a number of clocks using a 2nd hand ML10, a Rodney Mill, and a Dividing Head I built, all having the same nose thread design. This gives me total interchangeability, when producing all sorts of mechanisms. I also use the Myford collets which are also interchangeable.
Hope you find these comments useful, David

raynerd · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2012, 03:34:28 PM »

Hi David, yes, I totally understand your message and my current setup has allowed me to turn parts on my Boxford Model A, remove the chuck with wheel blank from the lathe and mount on the mill for cutting, maintaining concentricity. I`ve not used this horizontal mill yet, but likewise I`ll need to have some method of moving from the mill to the divider on the mill.

To be honest, I`m only looking for the lathe for simple turning of small parts, wheel collets, wheel arbors, bushes etc. This is why I`m thinking the ME will do the job just fine!

I`ve read a lot more about the Toyo and it looks a great machine. The headstock just looks so obscure that building any attachments or finding suitable parts would be a challange.

Hummm.. still no conclusion :-(

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Author Topic: Some help buying a new lathe please? (Read 34938 times)