Some help buying a new lathe please?

[raynerd]

After a short break from engineering due to normal life duties, I`m now back on track again. My workshop has been tidied over the weekend and I`m nearly ready to begin. I`ve got my nice boxford model A which has been a real work horse and has helped me get going in this hobby. Although I do have a nice little Boley watchmakers lathe, it really is small and with no cross slide,  I am forced only to use a graver.

I put an advert on homeworkshop the other day for a little clockmakers lathe and a chap came back to me with a Toyo ML1 for £300.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/toyo/page3.html



It looks a cracking little lathe, a bit more than I can afford to pay but I`m happy to stretch to it if I can get some early Christmas money of my wife!!

However, I`m posting here for advice. Far too often I have jumped at machinery in excitement without thinking of the work required to get it going or the limitations of its use. I only want this lathe for small work, mainly clock sizes parts, arbors and wheel collets. Sure, I can already hear some of you telling me that my Boxford is capable of small work but when you sat at your workbench, I want a more comfortable machine than the big boxford to tackle these jobs. My main concern is the lack of accessories. It looks a well made machine but I`m concerned that I will miss the “missing” accessories. It comes with only a tool post,  a 3 jaw chuck, live center and tailstock chuck. It doesn`t have a power feed but none of these machines do. It does not have the collet set which was made for this machine and it doesn`t have a faceplate. The headstock is an unconventional 1.5MT and the chuck is held in position with 3 alan bolts. A quick google brings up nothing in terms of accessories for this machine being sold so in my opinion, it looks as though the chance of getting parts is zero. But could a faceplate be made? Could an additional chuck be adapted to fit this machine?  - even if this is the case, it starts becoming a project in itself.
Your thoughts would be really welcomed. I could not afford any more than £300 and when you take into account budget, it seems like for this money I`m getting a lovely machine. It just concerns me that I may end up with limitations in its use further down the line due to lack of accessories! Like I`ve just said, a Cowells with full suit of accessories would suit me just fine, but then I don`t have £2500+

Look forward to the replies! Just thought I`d ask before I dive into it.
Chris

EDIT: forgot to say that the standard hand wheels are not zeroing and the chap has made some new hand wheels which just need marking out. these are included.

[philf]

Chris,

I think you've already really talked yourself out of this one. I think you'd need a top slide for tapered arbors. 1.5MT collets - probably as rare as rocking horse droppings. (Being polite!) Even a 1.5MT centre might be difficult to find.

Chucks and backplates wouldn't be difficult - the Hobbymat had a similar arrangement and fitting other chucks was no problem. Just turning and drilling and tapping clamp holes required - no screwcutting.

I still haven't come across the missing parts for the compound for your Boley.

 

Phil.

[raynerd]

Hi Phil

I don`t know about talking myself out but my message certainly had a negative vibe about it.

Usually I get very excited and dive into buying something. With this I`m just trying to step back and think of the negatives before plowing ahead as I normally do and realizing the limitations afterwards.

It still looks a great machine for £300. You are totally right that the likelihood of ever getting any collets is close to zero. Perhaps the fact this only has one chuck is enough to leave it alone as well?

[Jo]

Chris,

The price seems high. The taper in the nose will be a pain. Yes you can make everything you need but how much time do you want to spend on kitting it out?

I have seen Perris (early Cowells) lathes go for as little as £300 with many more accessories than the one you show. I paid £700 for my Cowells and it came with 3 jaw, 4 jaw independent, 2 face plates, dividing head, indexing head, vertical slide, collet chuck, full set of collets, steadies. Bargains are out there, even on Fleabay Cowell's are selling for around £500 for a basic machine with three jaw and four jaw chucks.

Jo

[fixit]

Chris
          whats wrong with your Taig !         Myself and many people have made clocks on them and when you get used to it
 it is 'very' acurate as good as the one you are thinking of,   also its very easy to make accesories for  and the main thing is that you also have a mill for gear cutting.  i would stick to looking for boley bits then you can get in to pocket watches.

Just a thought if you are thinking of disposing of your taig bits please let me know

Best regards   Steve

[NickG]

Chris, how about a sherline the little mill I had was great for small stuff. Or are there any proxon in that range? Just a couple of thoughts into the mix

[raynerd]

Hi fixit, yes, I keep buying second hand and getting one that has been a workhorse.... think I`ve just learnt my lesson and trying not to make a bad mistake again. I`m in catch 22 where I want a new lathe but can`t afford one yet second hand, I have in the past purchased out of excitement rather than sensibly thinking of the condition and accessories.

I had a Cowells offered today ,  more than I was wanting to pay but again with very few accessories - practically nothing but the lathe a 3 jaw and top slide with tool post. Looks a cracker but I again need to find out if the new accessories will fit...then being new, could I even afford the accessories!

Chris

[andyf]

Check the spindle nose thread on the Cowells, Chris. Modern ones are M14x1, but M14x1.5 was used on earlier models, and I think it's getting hard to find things (faceplate, 4-jaw, collet chuck etc) in that size.

Andy

[Jo]

M14 * 1.5mm taps are readily available, which means with your boxford you can make all the adapters for chucks you will need. You will need to knock up some short morse tapers for the various drill chucks etc.

I paid £30 for a cowells 14mm * 1.5mm collet chuck plus all eight collets, from a well known second hand tool dealer only 4 months ago so don't let the old thread worry you. Bargains are out there! The later M14 * 1 nose means you can use Unimat accessories but if you get that modern a Cowells for the money you are talking about I will be jealous.

Jo

[Fergus OMore]

err Sparking Plug threads?

[doubleboost]

Are plugs not 14 / 1.25
John

[Fergus OMore]

John,
          Surprisingly, this 'information'  came from a well known supplier some time ago.

Well, I have a few plugs from various tooling and a MJ-189. Will see- but it's late. Came down from the Cairngorms an hour or so ago- hence the 'Fergus o'More' thing.
Meantime. thanks

N

[raynerd]

hi guys

The cowells ME is offered is for £375 and is the older model with the more open gearing/belting with a M14 x 1.5 thread.

So any more info advice welcome... still a good buy or not?  As I said, other than a 3 jaw, tool post and top slide,  no other real accessories. It is about £100 more than I can afford but if it will last me for a good while to come, I`ll stretch.
So Jo, you are saying I could also get a collet set to fit this for very little money?

Chris

[Jo]

No I am saying that if you keep your eyes open and are willing to haggle  you can get things for silly money.

One of my friends decided to fit a ER collet chuck to his Cowells, he seems very happy with it. All he needed was a backplate which like me he made himself using one of the sets of chinese M14 * 1.5mm tap sets.

Does it have the change wheels? If not they are expensive if you have a mad desire to do thread cutting.

Jo

[joegib]

Just a couple of points:

1. You said in your opening post —  "I only want this lathe for small work, mainly clock sizes parts, arbors and wheel collets". Now I know sweet fanny adams about clockmaking but my impression is that the horology guys favour a high top spindle speed for certain purposes. If that's right, is the Cowells 90ME gonna hack it for you? Its top speed is 880rpm as against 3000rpm for the Toyo. Just saying ...

2. The Toyo M1 does have limited taper-turning capability via the swiveling headstock (like the Unimat).

3. If you've got a Boxford A, chomping out a faceplate for the Toyo from a 4" disc of alloy or cast iron seems like a fairly trivial exercise. I only say this because I cobbled a Toyo ML1 3-jaw chuck to a Cowells machine and didn't find it difficult.

4. Collets are a definite problem. However, this Canadian guy has made an ER16 chuck for his ML210:

http://toolingaround.ca/era.html

Big caveat here — I don't know whether the ML210 has the same spindle nose profile as the ML1 so this may not be feasible for the latter.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the Cowells90ME — I acquired one around 1990 for much the same reason as others here, to do some kitchen table top work on cold winter evenings. But I've sometimes fretted about its low speed so I wonder whether it'll meet your needs. It's not for nothing that Cowells have a quite separate model — the 90CW — aimed at clockmakers.

Joe

[raynerd]

I`ve been offered it now for £350 and I`m considering it ...

the M14 x 1.5 thread seems unusual and rare - RDG seems to stock M14 x 1 faceplates and chucks off the shelf.


It is in nice working order so requires little attention and I think with the 3 jaw, I`m all sorted to do some turning right from the start. I`d need a little faceplate but like Jo says, I can make one! My only concern would be the accuracy of turning up a faceplate for an additional chuck or collets.

[raynerd]

Joegib - we were typing at the same time!

Thanks for your message, you make some very very valid points.

The one thing I would say regarding the cowells is that I`m not using it for wheel cutting - I have a little horizontal Rawyler mill for that. I`ll just be using it for turning up arbors, wheel collets and such... just small turning jobs rather than doing it on my Boxford.

Joegib, I would actually agree that some aspects of the Toyo excite me more but the Cowells is the right size and although the M14 x 1.5 looks difficult to come by, it does look more common than the Toyo headstock...

hummm tricky ...

[BillTodd]

It's no great difficulty single-pointing those threads Chris, so if you need something made, just shout.

Bill

[narrowgauger]

Hi There

the Toyo lathe will be superb quality with long durability.  we have a Toyo 210 lathe & a 210 milling machine in commenrcial use for over 30 years and both are still in perfect order. (as are our other 2 Proxxon lathes & milling machines)  However the capacity will be limited.

for parts keep in mind that the later Proxxon 210's are in fact Toyo's made for Proxxon. therefore all parts are available from Proxxon albeit at a price.

we also have (currently under rebuilding) an old Cowells lathe similar to the one you are looking at.  more capacity, yet a simple machine but....... parts are more expensive compared to Proxxon/Toyo.

if it were my money I would look for a Proxxon 230 lathe as the best option.  Excellent machine with great capability and far superior to the Taig or Cowells at the price.

contact me at themodelworks@ozemail.com.au if you are interested in a Proxxon 230 lathe and/or mill since we might be willing to dispose of one of our units.

have fun
Bernard

[caskwith]

Both the lathes you mention seem to suffer from some serious drawbacks. If I were you I would hold off for a while unless you are in depsarate need of another lathe. I waited until the right lathe came up and I got a Proxxon 230 on ebay for £250, came with all the included tooling and extras are easy to buy from axminster. I made some of my own bits and pieces to suit and I am very happy.

[Jo]

I am beginning to think that there could be a market for Cowells 14mm * 1.5mm backplates. They are embarisingly easy to make (if, like me, you have the tap set).

I like the little Proxxon 210 lathe and did seriously look at it but both myself and a collegue had problems with proxxon electrics/motors. Has anyone else had problems?

Jo

[NickG]

Is this any good? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EMCO-unimat-3-model-makers-lathe-/290813129334?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item43b5d03276

[Jo]

At that price it is a gift, no wonder it has not met it's reserve.

Jo

[Meldonmech]

Hi Chris,
              A few years ago John Wilding wrote a series of articles building various clocks on a variety of small lathes. One of which was the Toyo, all the lathes he used he achieved good results, but all were underpowered. He ended up buying a 2nd hand ML7.  The most important issue in clock making is reducing friction, and in many cases this is caused by eccentricity of rotating mating parts. To reduce these problems for instance a gear blank turned on a lathe using a chuck, should be transferred to a dividing head which has the same nose as the lathe to ensure the gear to be cut is concentric. You are probably aware of the problem. I made a number of clocks using a 2nd hand ML10, a Rodney Mill, and a Dividing Head I built, all having the same nose thread design. This gives me total interchangeability, when producing all sorts of mechanisms. I also use the Myford collets which are also interchangeable.
                                                              Hope you find these comments useful,   David

[raynerd]

Hi David, yes, I totally understand your message and my current setup has allowed me to turn parts on my Boxford Model A, remove the chuck with wheel blank from the lathe and mount on the mill for cutting, maintaining concentricity. I`ve not used this horizontal mill yet, but likewise I`ll need to have some method of moving from the mill to the divider on the mill.

To be honest, I`m only looking for the lathe for simple turning of small parts, wheel collets, wheel arbors, bushes etc. This is why I`m thinking the ME will do the job just fine!

I`ve read a lot more about the Toyo and it looks a great machine. The headstock just looks so obscure that building any attachments or finding suitable parts would be a challange.

Hummm.. still no conclusion  :-(

[raynerd]

Nick - I purchased a Unitmat 3 when i was at Uni...first lathe I ever owned! It had every accessory under the sun INCLUDING milling attachment. I sold it for beer money ...makes me weep thinking about it.   

[andyf]

Though probably not as rare as the 1.5MT of the Toyo, Chris, the 0MT used in Cowells spindles isn't exactly common, particularly as it's a shortened version. A true 0MT is 2" long, with diameters of 0.250" at the thin end and about 0.356 at the other. The Cowells version is about 1.125" long, and comprises only the thinner end of a standard 0MT, so if you stick a standard 0MT into a Cowells spindle (or tailstock), about 7/8" of it will protrude.

That said, I suppose the spindle taper wouldn't be relevant if you concoct a screw-on collet chuck for working on your clocks. I'm not sure how things are attached to the Toyo spindle; your picture (which bears a remarkable similarity to the one in a well-known archive) seems to hint that bolts pass through chucks etc from the front into tapped holes in the spindle flange. If so, it wouldn't be too hard to make up a collet chuck for the Toyo, either.

One thing both have in common is the lack of any half-nuts, so the carriage must be moved either by handcranking or under power feed (assuming the Toyo you are looking at comes with fine feed gears). On my Perris (which became the first Cowells 90ME), going any distance with an M10x1mm feedscrew was so exasperating that I made a half-nut for it. Of course, horology probably doesn't entail using the full length of the bed very often.

As the owner of a Perris, I think I'd choose the Toyo. It looks better engineered. But £350 for a Cowells is good value nowadays, and the Toyo looks a nice machine for £300, if someone hasn't snapped it up already.

Andy

Edited to get rid of typos

[raynerd]

Hi Andy, I appreciate your thoughts and although the Toyo looks nice, I think I`m happier with the Cowells. I recieved an email earlier and I think this info clinches it for me. I do hope my correspondent doesn`t mind me sharing it but i can`t imagine he would protest, besides the quote below remains anonymous:


I debating for a long time whether to go with the ME or the CW, and the decision ended up hinging on the use of standard watchmaker's collets.  However, as you mentioned, that doesn't make a huge difference, especially if working on clocks.  The 90ME should provide better torque at slow speeds, especially when using the backgear, and, of course, screw cutting ability would be a big plus.  John Wilding's book for his English Regulator clock was made with a 90ME and he points out those advantages and even says that the 90ME is more appropriate for the "clockmaker" than the 90CW (and pointing out the irony of it as well...)

[caskwith]

Spotted this ad today, don't know if it's of any use.

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&view=show_ad&adid=13407&catid=2

[andyf]

Caskwith, there's something about the advertiser's name and location that makes me wonder if that might be Chris raising money for his Cowells fund 

Andy

[raynerd]

lol 

Tis me.. don`t know why, but it seemed someone had a problem contacting me at my normal email if you look further down the homeworkshop page.

[caskwith]

Caskwith, there's something about the advertiser's name and location that makes me wonder if that might be Chris raising money for his Cowells fund 

Andy

Ha, well I do like to make a fool of myself at least once a day ;)

[NickG]

Chris, I did a similar thing with my ML7 and Sherline mill, and more recently I even am beginning to regret getting rid of the Centec 2A. Should have just kept them all - it could have done a job while the other mill was set up for something else but needs must!

I am considering buying another ML7 as there is an unwanted one in the family, I don't really need it now I have the harrison but it would make me feel better, like I hadn't naively sold the lathe my grandad gave me.

Nick

[kayz1]

Craynerd, anyone else..i have found in my shed some bits i had from my old Dad some years ago, of interest maybe to one of you..
 90mm back plate with four slots..thread???? being new to all this i only have metric stuff but the thread appears tobe M14. I tested
with a bolt i have from an engine crank pulley M14 1.5 it goes in but is a tad loose...the 1.75 will not go through..any good to you?
  Lyn.

[raynerd]

  pm sent

[kayz1]

New owner Chriss. 
 Lyn.

[NickG]

Hi Chris,

Did you find a new little lathe yet?

Since first seeing this post you have given me the bug too - I've been looking at Emco Unimat 3s & 4s - I understand the quality of the 3 was better than the later 4?

Also, then I came across the peatol again - I used to look at those many moons ago at the shows as they were relatively cheap. Then I realised you'd had one of these too!!! So which would you rate higher, peatol or Unimat 3? If push came to shove I could build a decent peatol for around £300 from new parts, however, might be able to save a bit as think I've got a motor and a few other ods and sods I could use.

I don't know why, I've not even been in the workshop for about a year but now I seem hooked on buying another lathe for some reason! I keep remembering my sherline mill, how good, easy and accurate it was for certain little jobs.

Nick

[Fergus OMore]

I have a MJ-189 which is a Uni clone and apart from seeing that the wheels turned, I haven't touched it. Previous owner must hardly have used it- went into a home and his club put it up for sale for him.
It came with the three jaw, faceplate, some collets, drill chucks and rotating centre and the cost to him was over £400. I bought it for £250 and I got a timewaster as it proved. He took it home, wasted more time and I simply gave him his money back.
So it doesn't matter one way or the other but I'm certainly curious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of my associates - a scrapman had a scrapper car but with an almost unobtainable windscreen. Guy came up at the price quoted over the phone- then started to haggle.
My associate took it out for him- with a 

I'm sort of seeing his views very clearly now.

Regards

Norman

[raynerd]

The Unimat 3 I owned when I had literally no experience - I mean like zero knowledge so to comment on its capabilities would be wrong as I didn`t own it for long enough. However, I would say that they seem very expensive for what you get, accessories also seem expensive but I know a lot of clockmakers like the fact the milling head attachment can be used.

My first Peatol/Taig I really loved and only really sold because I was short on cash at the time. It was fully kitted out and even had the lead screw mod attachment! Parts were cheap, accessories were cheap and there is enough info on the net about them to pretty much do any conceivable modification! Value for money, I`d lump onto the Peatol out of the two for sure.

I`m sure everyone had opinions and I`m probably not the best one to ask!

To answer you original question, I`ve gone ahead and purchased the Cowells ME and I can certainly say without any degree of uncertainty that its quality, weight and feel is not even comparative to the peatol or unimat! However, in terms of value for money the peatol still wins as the cost of accessories is stupidly low. I still have quite a bit of spending to do to be kitted out with the necessary Cowells accessories and as Jo on here keeps mentioning to me, I guess there is little point devaluing the quality of the lathe with inferior none cowells accessories!


Let us know what you go with!
All the best
Chris

[NickG]

Thanks Chris, I'm watching a couple of unimat a and peatols on eBay. The quality of the peatol looks better but to me looks a bit make shift. The unimat could be going for a good price with a lot of accessories and already has lead screw so the powered mod is easier. That said its about the results it gives at the end of the day that I'm interested in. The peatol also has a bit more capacity.

Know what you mean about the cowels, never tried one but they certainly look the part. Did you get it brand new or find a good 2nd had one?

I may have the chance of an ml7 that's in the family, I know completely different scale, is it really worth it when I already have the Harrison? The smaller lathes attract as you say for those tiny components and could even be a house lathe! An ml7 definitely couldn't!

Thanks again, much to ponder!

[NickG]

I have bid on a couple of different unimat a now that were well kitted out but just missed out by the odd fiver! Prob a good thing. I keep coming back to peatols for the reasons you said now. Didn't realise you had another for sale, do you still have it? What's the condition like? See you can still get them new for about £200 with a chuck and tail stock. Thinking back I used to see them at the shows for peanuts but that was many moons ago.
Cheers
Nick

[raynerd]

Nick
I sold it for £120 last week -soft jaws only and no motor so to be honest, needed money spending on it to bring it to a usable condition. It was for that reason I didn`t keep it myself.
Have you seen the current Cowells on ebay? - very similar to mine but with more accessories but then again price is higher than mine and still a few days left.
Chris

[NickG]

Ah right cheers, yeah saw that cowells but as you say it's 423 now bet it goes for over 600!

[John Hill]

These fabulous little machines being discussed makes me feel depressed about the little Sherline with no extras, stuft tail stock and worn out 3 jaw chuck I just bought!

[andyf]

Reading this might make you feel a bit better about your Sherline, John.
http://www.cowells.com/pricelist.htm

Only £189 for a 2.5" 4-jaw. A bargain £390 for an "auto-traverse kit" or fine feed, which as far as I'm aware consists of a simple banjo, a gear to go on the spindle, another for the leadscrew, and two pairs of compound gears with studs.

Andy

[raynerd]

John, where did you get your Sherline?

Andy - they sure are expensive but to be fair the autotraverse kit is standard with the ME! Is yours the ME or CW?

[John Hill]

I found the Sherline on a NZ auction site,  I am actually quite pleased with it as it appears to be quite rare!

It is one of the original Australian made Sherlines with brass bed and cross slide etc  (it also has a rather gutless blue sewing machine motor) but what really seems to set it apart is the model name which is shown on the plate as
"Sherline 3 1/2" precision lathe",  I have not found reference anywhere to one with this model name, all model names I have found are numeric. 


Name plate by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr


IMGP1090 by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr


IMGP1089 by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr

I have since added  "laypulley"** to reduce the spindle speed and up the torque a bit.

**    

[andyf]

John, looking at the maker's plate, your Sherline has got 1/2" shorter with age (like me)  .

Chris, I think the CW horologist's version wasn't introduced until after Cowells took the lathe over after Brian Perris's death. Mine is the Perris SL90; the first 90MEs were almost identical, though I think Cowells changed to an M14x1.5 spindle nose straight away. Mine is 1/2"x20 UNF.

Pics of mine are at http://andysmachines.weebly.com/perris-baby-lathe.html, with an update on making a disengageable half nut to replace the solid one (without drilling any new holes in the cross slide) here http://andysmachines.weebly.com/a-half-nut-for-the-perris.html

I think you have joined the Yahoo Cowells Group; the instructions for putting the kit-form Perris together, and the 1970's Cowells catalogue in its Files section both came with my lathe.

Does yours have the fragile split headstock bearings with only one bolt to tighten them up, or were Cowells using their improved headstock by the time yours was produced. My headstock took a bit of repairing when it broke (more accurately: when I broke it  ).

Andy

[John Hill]

What in 1/2"?  .......................musta been wishful thinking on my part!

[andyf]

Size doesn't matter - at least, that's what I tell 'em, John

It looks a cracking little machine, with its rather unusual brass bed and cross slide. I wonder where it was made. According to lathes.co.uk, they were Australian-made aluminium-bed Clisbys from 1970 until 1972, when they became American-made Sherlines. Maybe Mr Sher set up "Ronald Sher Pty Ltd Australia" as a distributorship in Australia to exploit the reputation of the Clisby in that country.  Or maybe Sher manufactured in Oz for a while.

Andy

[John Hill]

I think Mr Sher was a Skippy who manufactured for Mr Clisby.  The tools were shown at trade shows including in the US where the present company saw them and bought the rights to manufacture and obviously the name too.

The story is here http://www.sherline.com/sherhist.htm

But there is no mention of the 3" Precision Lathe  model and this one does not have a 'high torque' motor, although it is an Australian made motor which tends to argue against this little motor having been fitted by a NZ owner after the 'high torque' motor died, the motor is blue like the lathe which is another point against it having been a replacement.

I wish the lathe had a serial number as I suspect this one would be very low!

[andyf]

Thanks for the link, John. I hadn't realised Mr Sher was an Aussie.

The third photo down of the "Original Model 1000" shows what looks to be a brass bed, saddle and cross slide like yours. Maybe you should send your photo to Tony at lathes.co.uk, whose description implies that the whole thing was aluminium. As you say, yours was probably a very early Ron Sher product; the Clisby was 2.5" swing, according to Tony, and the Sherline 3.5", with the label on yours indicating a half-way stage.

Andy

[raynerd]

Andy, mine is an early 300's number stamped on the bed and so has the single lock down screws for the headstock. One thing I am unsure of, is how hard to tighten them! I had forgot yours was a Perrin's and looks very similar to mine!



I must admit, I thought the bed was casted with the Cowells logo and not a sticker! Even the early looking ME`s shown on lathe.co.uk seem to have the cast COWELLS print. I`m wondering if mine is a copy 









Just need to get my Rawyler setup and I`m all good on the "mini" house cupboard machining setup!





Set of W20 collets and arbors.


------
John, thanks for posting pics of your lathe, it looks super! I know you mentioned about wear, but seriously how does a lathe bed stand the test of time in brass - I could imagine it would be quite likely to wear quicker than a steel bed?
Chris

[andyf]

Hi Chris,

Judging by the name cast into it, the tailstock is original, at least 

It looks a tidy little machine; great for dealing with tiddly parts.

Have you seen Jere Mihalov's website? He's a great fan of the CW version, which he had shipped over to the US
http://watchmaking.weebly.com/cowells-90cw.html

I see he has a copy of my Perris manual on there. Hardly surprising, as he kindly converted my scans into the PDF for the Cowells group.

Andy

Andy

[John Hill]

Thanks for the link, John. I hadn't realised Mr Sher was an Aussie.

The third photo down of the "Original Model 1000" shows what looks to be a brass bed, saddle and cross slide like yours. Maybe you should send your photo to Tony at lathes.co.uk, whose description implies that the whole thing was aluminium. As you say, yours was probably a very early Ron Sher product; the Clisby was 2.5" swing, according to Tony, and the Sherline 3.5", with the label on yours indicating a half-way stage.

Andy

The same page shows a drawing (which will not expand for me.) titled "Plans for Original Sherline 3.5" Model 1000 lathe from Australia, 1972".

I must go out to the 'shop and measure the swing!

[later] Height of the centre above the bed is 1.75"

[NickG]

You guys nearly gave me the bug - I nearly won the one that was on ebay, only the bidding increasing by £75 in the last 10 seconds of the auction saved me! It went for £525 which I guess wasn't bad considering the stuff that came with it.

They look like a nice piece of kit.

John, as I've said many times, I loved my little sherline mill - annoying thinking back why did I sell it, £270 must have been a lot of money in 1998 that's all I can think!

Nick

[andyf]

My Perris was £25 secondhand, Nick, with a 4-jaw, a collet chuck with a single 1/4" collet plus an unbored blank, faceplate, vertical slide and fine feed gears, but no screwcutting gears. But these days, £525 ain't bad for a real Cowells as opposed to its predecessor.

Andy

[NickG]

Sorry to hijak this thread a bit now but it's done the job for Chris!

Thought it might be a decent deal that cowells! I was thinking, I could prob get an ML7 for similar money but can't put that on some wood and plonk it on kitchen table. It is more than I really want to pay though considering I've still got the harrison sat in the garage!

These are probably going to be shot down in flames - just come across this, it looks like a drill onits side, will it be any good?! Seems to have quite a few limitations but can be 'converted' into a mill / drill - by putting it upright by the looks of it!!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0052ETK4Q/?tag=hydra0b-21&hvadid=9550933509&ref=asc_df_B0052ETK4Q

or

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathes/C0-Baby-Lathe/C0-Baby-Lathe

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-sieg-c0-metal-turning-lathe-prod559017/

These are the same and essentially Unimat 4 clones I think on a little base? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Will the axminster one be worth £50 more than the arc? Will an actual unimat 4 be worth another £70 on top of the axminster?!

Or could get a 2nd hand unimat 3 which are supposed to be much better for around £200.

Then there's the Peatol - I bid on one yesterday, thought I had it but in the last 3 seconds snipers increased the max bid by £100! to £330 or something, I can build a new one for about that. The quality of the peatol looks better than the little chinese things doesn't it?

Cheers,

Nick

[andyf]

Those Sieg COs had the reputation of not being for the faint-hearted (camel-back beds etc) when they first came out, Nick, though they may have improved by now. It might be an idea to join "their" Yahoo group to see what current owners think of them.

The Draper offering looks a bit like a watchmaker's lathe. I wonder how rigid it is, given that it seems to have some sort of adjustable prop under the tailstock.

If you want a portable machine, the (expensive) ideal would be a Cowells, but a Peatol/Taig, a Sherline or even a decent Unimat would probably be a better bet than the Draper, and perhaps better than the C0.

Andy

[raynerd]

I`d go for a Peatol Nick - like I said in an earlier post, bang for buck they are fantastic. If you had £350, you could get a second hand one off ebay and then with the change (which would be a considerable amount), you could pretty much purchase every assessory you would need! Saying that, one sold about 3 weeks ago on ebay, £180 full working order machine and absolutely loads of accessories with it. For that sort of price, I wouldn`t even touch the draper considering what is about for similar and less money! As an aside, year ago when I was looking for a small machine before the peatol, I read some bad reviews of the Unimat 4.
I got my Cowells for just under £350 in the end, granted, not many accessories but I`m saving for those after Christmas. I`ve got what I need for now and I seriously wouldn`t be without the machine. You could say, save the extra £200 and look for something like the one that just sold on ebay but I just can`t afford that sort in one lump so I`m happy with what I`ve got and adding to it.
A chap was selling a Peatol on homeworkshop not so long ago, £200 brand spanking new with motor. The money left would certainly get near to what you need.

Just my humble opinion...

Chris

[philf]

Those Sieg COs had the reputation of not being for the faint-hearted (camel-back beds etc) when they first came out, Nick, though they may have improved by now. It might be an idea to join "their" Yahoo group to see what current owners think of them.
Andy

I think that the ArcEuro site gives a good indication of the shortcomings of the Sieg C0 lathe when they have to sell a tailstock adaptor to adjust the tailstock centre to line up with the spindle!

Phil.

[NickG]

Thanks for the advice chaps.

Fergus, where did you advertise the MJ-189? I think that is effectively the same as the sieg c0 or axminster - a unimat clone?

Thanks Andy, I agree with you and Chris. That draper is also made by sieg, i first saw it on their website, the draper version looks nice in the pics but as you say I'd question it's rigidity and it probably doesn't look great when you get up to it!

I nearly got the peatol, I think it went for 185 and my max bid was 180 so I wasn't far off getting that. The one that finished last night had the top slide and vertical slide but only a 4 jaw + lots of other general bits and bobs.

Genuine unimat 3's and 4's seem to be going for around the £220 mark with the basics which I'm thinking isn't too bad, but because I've got my own motor & could make my own mounting board etc, I could do a brand new peatol for similar money and build on the accessories gradually.

Phil, I'm not sure why they are supplying that adaptor now since the tailstock is adjustable now!

Nick

[philf]

Phil, I'm not sure why they are supplying that adaptor now since the tailstock is adjustable now!

Nick

Nick,

I hadn't spotted that they now make the tailstock adjustable. They seem to make a big deal of the adjustable tailstock being exclusive to them. The fact that they also supply the adaptor must mean that it can be misaligned vertically as well as horizontally or the adaptor wouldn't be necessary. I may be a bit pessimistic but if the tailstock could be out horizontally and vertically could it also be not parallel to the spindle? If so, no amount of horizontal and vertical adjustment would cure the problem.

Phil.

[NickG]

Must admit I did wonder the same, whether it was misaligned vertically too!!!

You make a good point there, peoples experiences of these chinese machines, including my own should be enough to put me off really but the price difference is forcing me to consider. With the larger lathe it was an easy choice in the end, I could get a fantastic 2nd had machine for the same price or less than a much smaller, less well equiped chinese machine. But in this instance, the chinese counter part is a couple of hundred quid cheaper in general. I have a feeling i'd live to regret it so maybe the 2nd hand Unimat 3 or peatol is going tobe the happy medium I'm looking for. The peatol is favourable, as I said, I already have the motor etc so that would leave me some money to spend on accessories.

This has got me thinking - a couple of years back I donated a lathe of unknown origin to our club - it seemed a compact but fairly solid thing, even had a back gear! It had a makeshift carriage though and the cross slide was from an old shaper. I could make a better carriage and use a cross slide from something like a peatol. Might have another look at the thing, am sure it's still there, I could take it back!

[raynerd]

Nick, did you get fixed up with a lathe or still thinking?

[raynerd]

Nice buy whoever picked this up imo.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/cowells-lathe-/200865626597?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item2ec48639e5

Chris

[NickG]

Had I waited I could probably have had that one!