Solar power

[rleete]

Anyone happen to read about the joint venture company in San Diego that's making solar panels? They've got a contract to make a "power plant" of solar trackers that will generate 100megawatts. BTW, current total solar power generation is estimated to be just over 100megawatts, so this is big.

The grand opening of the plant in San Diego was this week. Soitec US is officially online. This is the company Orafol (formerly Reflexite, where I work) has partnered with to produce solar panels for power generation.

Those big panels, with the array of lenses? I designed all the tooling and fixturing to produce them. I will be directly responsible for the first large scale (100megawatt) solar power plant in the USA

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/New-Solar-Facility-Looking-to-Hire-450-184127991.html

Watch the video!


(Edited to fix broken link)

[dsquire]

rleete

Let me be the first to congratulate you. It sure sounds like a very ambitious project and I wish you well as it goes forward.

I couldn't find the link to the video. Maybe you could tell us where it is hiding.

Cheers 

Don

[andyf]

It must be great to be involved with a project like that! And, looking out of my window at the miserable weather here in the UK, I envy your being in a part of the world with enough reliable sunshine to make it work!

I hope the project goes really well.

Don, I found the video:
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/New-Solar-Facility-Looking-to-Hire-450-184127991.html

Andy

[rleete]

Thanks, Don.  Sorry about the link, in cutting & pasting it somehow got unformatted.

Andy, many thanks for fixing the link. 

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

100 MW = 100,000 m²/.28 (the current crop of PV converters is 28% efficient at best) = 357,143 m² of collectors as the average tropical solar flux is 1 kW/m².  If you can use steam generation, then you can increase the efficiency into the 40% range using the best of modern steam technology.  On the other hand, getting into Near Earth Orbit (NEO) increases the solar flux input into the 1.5 MW/m² range and going out beyond the Earth's magnetosphere pushes that up closer to 14 MW/m².

I have been working (from time-to-time) with solar (and other alternative) energy systems since the early-1970's.  There were programs on using particle beams to transmit energy (Chair Heritage, GRASER, and, later, SDI) that were demonstrated as part of SkyLab that everybody has forgotten about.  We actually (1976) achieved 5 MW of transmission in a ø6 inch (ø100 mm) beam that was publicly acknowledged (in Popular Science).  I have heard (but have no documentation for) claims made of reaching close to 12 MW in a ø6 inch beam from the late-1980's.

One of my local engineering/design services customers produces PV solar arrays.  They get (at best) 115-130 W/m² of output with a 1 kW/m² of input.  Without (Swedish, UK, & US) government funding, they could not afford to "play" in this market.  The well-publicized Solyndra debacle of recent memory was founded in an unrealistic assumption of solar energy.  I really hope that Soitec succeeds, but each failure of subsidized R&D ventures presented as commercially viable operations hurts the needed ongoing public R&D projects that have the chance to lead to commercially viable products.

One of the technologies that has led to the multiplication of new (medical) drugs was an improvement in the mixing (technically: agglomerization) of their components.  I was intimately involved in the development of this technology.  It is really a rather simple improvement over the previous drug component mixing technology.  However, it still took more than 20 years of taxpayer supported R&D to take this system from original concept to commercially viable application!

Automotive airbag restraint systems (another technology with which I was intimately involved in developing) took 25 years of taxpayer funded development before the first unit was installed in a mass-produced vehicle -- and that only happened when laws were instituted assuring that no liability could be placed on those who made or installed such devices.  It took another 15 years of taxpayer funded development before they reached the level of safety & reliability you see today.

The US government started investing (somewhat) regularly in Earth-based solar power R&D in 1979.  Such funding has gone in fits until the last few years.  (My personal guess is that we have "invested" in this technology for 10 of the past 33 years in a realistic fashion.)  Just as the post-Sputnik rush to space nearly destroyed our ability to launch useful payloads into orbit, so a premature rush to commercialize Earth-based solar energy production can damage efforts to make this technology truly practicable -- and that will be a very high price to pay...

And I still ask, where should we be "drilling" this well?

[Troutsqueezer]

I trust, Sir, that you will do better than "create scrap, one part at a time". 

[AdeV]

I have been working (from time-to-time) with solar (and other alternative) energy systems since the early-1970's.  There were programs on using particle beams to transmit energy (Chair Heritage, GRASER, and, later, SDI) that were demonstrated as part of SkyLab that everybody has forgotten about.  We actually (1976) achieved 5 MW of transmission in a ø6 inch (ø100 mm) beam that was publicly acknowledged (in Popular Science).  I have heard (but have no documentation for) claims made of reaching close to 12 MW in a ø6 inch beam from the late-1980's.

One of my favourite things in SimCity 2000 was the particle-beam power plant. Its disaster mode was the beam went off-station and started microwaving the town - great fun 

[DavidA]

The beamed energy had a much more sinister side effect. Heating the atmosphere as the microwaves passed through it. There was much discussion of the changes to weather conditions that would result from this.

Things got,  if you'll excuse the pun,  quite heated.

Maybe the Spanish 'Power Tower' is the way to go for solar thermal.

Dave.

[Noitoen]

Maybe the Spanish 'Power Tower' is the way to go for solar thermal.

The big problem is keeping the mirrors clean and efficient 

[DavidA]

I believe there is a robot vehicle that does this.
But maybe one of these coatings that repel dust will do it.

Dave.

[rleete]

I trust, Sir, that you will do better than "create scrap, one part at a time". 

Thank goodness that I'm the designer, not the machinist!

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

The beamed energy had a much more sinister side effect. Heating the atmosphere as the microwaves passed through it. There was much discussion of the changes to weather conditions that would result from this.

Particle beams are different from microwaves.  Microwave power density is limited by international law to 235 W/m².  The SkyLab experiment was only run for (about) 800 hours and there were no (at the time) measurable detrimental effects found.  All the people behind this system insisted on a 40 year prototype test just to be sure that whatever evil nasties were hiding in the weeds were exposed.  The original prototype test was supposed to have begun in November of 1982, but the program was cancelled in October of 1981.

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

The big problem is keeping the mirrors clean and efficient

Also the usually overlooked issue with PV units.

[Fergus OMore]

But how much has it really cost? I'm a bit of a sceptic recalling the concept of going further and further along a branch-- and -well- falling off.

I was in Germany in the summer and about every roof on farmhouse/ outbuilding had- solar panels. They didn't wait for research upon research, they got on with it.

However this Spanish thing. Very pretty and great for the bankrupt Spanish economy that wants a bail out from- well, me. OK, I've got a shower in my Spanish garden beside my pool. Out of sheer laziness or simply hard rock but the water heats up- with the sun simply being there.

I must assume that once a scientist has spent all those years learning to be a scientist, that someone has to justify all that expense- and to give him a job to go on and on- until he is dead-- and his research forgotten.

I like the idea of a very successful transport and caravan manufacturer in the North of England who originally got his central heating in his home by keeping the horses and cows- on the lower floor. Nuts? No, no really, they are still doing it in parts of Austria.

Cheers- and that

Norman

[DavidA]

Norman,

..I was in Germany in the summer and about every roof on farmhouse/ outbuilding had- solar panels. .

Were they solar thermal or photo voltaic panels ?

Most of the Greek houses have the simple solar hot water panels.  And they work very well. 

But they would only be of limited use in the northern UK. However, with the rising cost of energy, any Watts you can grab for free are welcome.

Lew,

...Also the usually overlooked issue with PV units...

The Power Tower isn't a photo voltaic system. Just  a massive array of mirrors focused on a point at the top of the tower. But agreed on the need to keep the mirrors clean.

Any one remember the Odeillo  Solar Furnace ?

Dave

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=odeillo+furnace&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Nu3&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GpnVUIGlDerY0QW37YH4BA&ved=0CEgQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=629

[AdeV]

The big problem is keeping the mirrors clean and efficient

Also the usually overlooked issue with PV units.

Assuming by PV you mean photovoltaics; the Spanish power tower doesn't use them; it uses concentrated solar energy to heat molten salt, which in turn is used to create steam, and the usual power station fits on the back.

[AdeV]

However this Spanish thing. Very pretty and great for the bankrupt Spanish economy that wants a bail out from- well, me. OK, I've got a shower in my Spanish garden beside my pool. Out of sheer laziness or simply hard rock but the water heats up- with the sun simply being there.

In fairness, the power tower was built before the economic crisis hit; and given that Spain has to import 100% of its fuel, for them a solar power plant makes excellent economic sense. By avoiding the PV route, they've also avoided the major problem of having to replace them - at great cost - every 20 years.

[PekkaNF]

The big problem is keeping the mirrors clean and efficient

Also the usually overlooked issue with PV units.

Assuming by PV you mean photovoltaics; the Spanish power tower doesn't use them; it uses concentrated solar energy to heat molten salt, which in turn is used to create steam, and the usual power station fits on the back.

All true, but I think Lew was saying that dirt is a problem on thermal panels and also PV panels.

Solar energy facinates me, but at my point of view everything works at Spain/middle europe and pretty much nothing works in north, like most of Finland. I mean as anual level. We get enough solar power in summer, when very little surplus energy is needed and very little on long, cold and dark winter. If the energy just could be stored more efficiently long time......

Pekka

[Fergus OMore]

to clear up a few points, the German units were photo-voltaic but for interest, we crossed the Rhine in mid August from Alsace in what was a National warning of 40degrees C. Less than a fortnight later, there was snow coming in in Austria. It wasn't a random event. Snow seems to have arrived mid-August for the last 16 years.

As far as Spain is concerned, I suspect that they have been in cloud cuckoo land and living from European Common Market grants for a very long time. Basicly, Spain is not a highly industrialised country. When Minis were costing under £500 new, you could get a small villa for £450.

I'm a cold blooded creature that recalls the donkey cart- rather than fancy solar monstrosities.
Britain got its grants towards solar panels in the home- and all was bright and gay. The goal posts are now changed.

[philf]

It would be nice to see some sun at the moment!

What there isn't any shortage of is water.

I'm involved with a small scale Hydro-electric scheme on the River Goyt about a mile from my home. It's currently churning out about 48KW for 24 hours a day. It's a twin Archimedes screw driving permanent magnet three phase generators through 30:1 gearboxes.

The variable frequency, variable voltage output from the generators is fed into an inverter which outputs three phase in sync with the mains. It feeds into the grid via a pole mounted transformer. In turn we get paid a feed in tarrif.

The river is running very high a the moment but, unfortunately, that doesn't mean a proportionate increase in power output. The power available is dependant on the drop available over the weir where the scheme is sited. When the river is high above the weir it's also high below it.

We have a rota of volunteers to go down every day to clean the input screen of debris. At the moment it's twigs and branches and the occasional tree trunk. A month ago we were having to clear huge mats of leaves  which were causing up to an 18" drop of head across the screen. Next Autumn we're going to do some experiments with the screen to try to stop the leaf problem. The Environment Agency specified the maximum size of the gaps in the screen at 100mm. Sycamore leaves have huge stalks which easily bridge the gaps and once one sticks there's a chain reaction.

A number of the volunteers have solar panels at home - some claiming that it pays their entire gas & electric bills for the year.

Phil.

[Fergus OMore]

I can understand all this water power thing. After all, Lord Armstrong of Cragside, Northumberland and 'Armstrongs Factory' had the first home to be lit by hydro-electricity.

However, there wasn't a sycamore tree- or any other tree at Nelly's Moss Lakes where the water came from. The works were not bunged up. Maybe now with the first rhododendrons which the daft man( on this occasion) imported  from the top of Everest- or very nearly.

Where we come in still the hard nosed approach to things by saying- how much per unit has to be costed in for - voluntary labour.

A note of sheer frustration enters now. I have a forest- well, a lot of sycamores and horse chestnut trees around the baronial 'pile' here. I'm fed up being an unpaid, aged volunteer involved in clearing them- Any bright- and I mean bright ideas to utilise them and 'the oaks and the ash and the bonny birk trees in my bit of the North Countrie'?

Just a hint, fellas. I'm getting a new tee shirt for Christmas

[philf]

Where we come in still the hard nosed approach to things by saying- how much per unit has to be costed in for - voluntary labour.

Norman,

It doesn't work if you try to cost in the volunteer's time. There are at least two professors and two doctors from Manchester University, a local councillor and several retired engineers from various fields amongst us.

Profits will be fed back into the local community. The investors aren't in it for the money!
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they're still generating their own electricity at Cragside. A pity - some other National Trust properties have installed new hydro schemes.

Armstrong was a remarkable man - I recently read his biography. As well as his hydro scheme he installed a hydraulic lift for his servants. 

Cheers.

Phil.

[Rob.Wilson]

Hi Phil


Is this your hydro project  ?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17552817 


Rob

[Fergus OMore]

 I was discussing 'what went on' rather than today- which is, of course, National Trust.

Lord Armstrong- for a non engineer was more than talented in engineering as we know.

I never 'made' Armstrong College or much else but I studied my 'trade'- across the road.
Oddly, I took top marks in cost accountancy- the reason,perhaps for a jaundiced view.
However, my pension still arrives from a rather large electricity supply industry.

Funny old world.

Norman

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Let me make some things clear, I am all for using truly renewable energy.  The large (450 kW, I believe) wind turbines sold by Siemans & GE are something I developed for the (US) Department of Energy (DoE) back in the 1980's.  (The story is complicated, but I saved the U.S. Windpower project from cancellation, put together a consortium of small companies, and built and delivered 987 units to DoE for less than (McDonnell-)Douglas Energy Systems' proposed tooling budget.)  I also have designed, built, and installed wind turbine systems in the arctic and North Dakota.  I have designed and built solar ovens for 3rd world usage, solar forges (concept demonstration & testing), and solar water heaters that have provided 65% of year-round 180°F water in Albany, NY.  I have also participated in 3 PowerSat design & development projects.  The potential is huge.

The problem is that the costs can also be huge if things are improperly designed or implemented.  As noted previously, one of the companies for which I do design/engineering and development work is a (US, Swedish, & UK) government subsidized producer of amorphous silicon PV systems.  They run about 12% efficient on average meaning that, at full tropical solar flux (i.e. 1 kW/m²) input, they produce about 120 W/m² of output.  They cost close to $1500/m² to produce and have a lifespan currently running in the 10-year range.  They also require (shall we say) not inexpensive power conditioning before their output can be used in standard AC applications.  On a bright sunny summer's day here in Washington State, a good output from them will run in the 50 W/m² range.  If you let them sit uncleaned here in the Puget Sound region of Washington State for six months, their efficiency drops from 12% into the 4% range.

There is a technology under development in Japan that, as of about a year-and-a-half ago when I sat through a meeting on their progress, is reputed to reach somewhat above 40% efficient in PV conversion.  The manufactured cost for this unit was (at the time of the meeting) running about $12,000/m² with a lifespan reported to be 3 years.  The costs will eventually be reduced and lifespans increased, but that was the state of the art the last I knew.

In terms of solar forge (i.e. power tower) technology, the problems still to be overcome are far from trivial.  There was a really kewl approach being tried in the early-/mid-70's that still appeals to me -- there was a variation on a sun-flower developed that was reputed to be more than 80% efficient in terms of reflecting infrared (IR) wavelengths.  The flower itself tracked the sun based on UV wavelengths, so a UV hologram properly positioned could keep the IR focus of the flowers on the thermal collector.  The flowers themselves would close-up at night and self-clean their reflective surfaces.  I have no idea what happened to that program.  It was based in one of the Persian Gulf states and got "moderate" (i.e. you had to dig for it) coverage for several months and then disappeared from sight.

The world's energy consumption in 2008 averaged (about) 10 TW-hr/hr (10,000,000,000,000 W-hr/hr).  That implies that peak energy consumption ran somewhere in the 30 TW-hr/hr range.  If we assume that we can ultimately develop a system that is 50% efficient (the best you can do under the Laws of Thermodynamics) and that we are working with an input of 1000 W/m² that is available for an average of 12 hours/day.  That implies that, to meet our total energy needs, we would dedicate 2*2*30,000,000,000,000/1000 = 120,000,000,000 m² (or 120,000 km²) to that generation.  That is a square (roughly) 350 km on a side -- and then you have to distribute this power.

To use a rather obscure analogy, rail transport is (approximately) 50X more fuel efficient than truck transport and (approximately) 200X more fuel efficient than air transport.  Here in the U.S. about 20% of our railbed system is out of service due to lack of maintenance.  Americans spend more than 300X the tax-dollars subsidizing truck transport and nearly 10,000X the tax-dollars subsidizing airlines as we spend subsidizing rail service.  Add onto this burden the (well-publicized) hucksters (such as Solyndra) who have "fed" at the tax-dollar trough of alternative energy subsidies, and you start to see the real nature of the problem.

[philf]

Hi Phil


Is this your hydro project  ?  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17552817 


Rob

Yes, that's the one Rob.

I think Chris (Craynerd) saw them as they were being lifted in on his way to see me back in March.

Hopefully we'll soon have an up to date website which tells people what's going on and how much power we're generating.

The site has eight CCTV cameras which the volunteers can monitor from the comfort of home.

Even when it's -5 C outside the powerhouse is nice and warm due to the gearboxes running very warm and the inverter inefficiency.

Cheers.

Phil.

[Rob.Wilson]

Looks a very  well worth wile project Phil 

Should be fitted to more rivers ,all that water running down hill , waisted energy 


Rob

[AdeV]

If we assume that we can ultimately develop a system that is 50% efficient (the best you can do under the Laws of Thermodynamics)

Why would 50% be the most efficient? Surely all the Law of Thermodynamics states is we can't be 100% or more efficient? Or are you treating the solar station as a heat pump; in which case you're right, 50% is the best we would ever get.

and that we are working with an input of 1000 W/m² that is available for an average of 12 hours/day.  That implies that, to meet our total energy needs, we would dedicate 2*2*30,000,000,000,000/1000 = 120,000,000,000 m² (or 120,000 km²) to that generation.  That is a square (roughly) 350 km on a side -- and then you have to distribute this power.

The size is easy - there's way more than 350km² of Sahara desert, for example, and that is sun-soaked most of the time. As you say, the problem is distribution, not generation.

How about this for an idea - and bear in mind that once the capital costs are accounted for, the running costs would be comparatively minimal:

1) Use the Spanish "power tower" idea, but scaled up to cover ~350 square kms as you propose. In fact, I'm not sure what the efficiency of the Spanish system is, so let's aim for a 500km² system (of course, it doesn't all HAVE to be in the same place; a biggie in the Sahara, one in the Middle East, one in Arizona and one in Central Australia would probably do.

2) Use the energy to extract carbon from the atmosphere, hydrogen from water, to create synthetic oils - all the way from butane through petroleum spirit (gasoline) down to heavy fuel oil, in the proportions which make the most sense from a transportation and electricity generation point of view.

3) Use new and existing rail/road/pipeline infrastructure to transport the product(s) to their destination markets.


Obviously, there are some pretty massive political problems to circumvent there; and a few technological ones; but IMHO it's the easiest way to transport large quantities of energy without requiring expensive cryogenics, pressure vessels, or losing most of it to resistance. It also has the advantage of sucking CO2 out of the air, so the greenists would need to find a new eeevil gas to moan about.

In fact, the biggest immediate problem I can foresee is - what the hell to do with all the oxygen you liberate (2 from each CO2 molecule, and 1 from each water molecule)... sure, some of it could be compressed and bottled, but I'm really not sure about the rest of it...

[raynerd]

I think Chris (Craynerd) saw them as they were being lifted in on his way to see me back in March.

Phil.

Phil, I hadn`t seen that video that Rob showed and yes, that is exactly what I saw. Monsters they were!

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Why would 50% be the most efficient? Surely all the Law of Thermodynamics states is we can't be 100% or more efficient? Or are you treating the solar station as a heat pump; in which case you're right, 50% is the best we would ever get.

In absolute terms, 50% of the energy gets lost in conversion from one form to another.  You can only get higher than 50% throughput when you are keeping the energy in the same form.  Thus, when you convert magnetic energy to electrical energy, you can reach (slightly) above 50% because electron quanta are magnetic quanta.  However, when you convert electro-magnetic waves into chemical imbalances and back into electron quanta (i.e. PV systems), you run into 3rd Law restrictions.  The same is true when you convert electro-magnetic waves into thermal quanta.

This is why I state that, Three years of a mechanical engineer's education is spent learning to prove mathematically that Murphy (or Parkenson on your side of the pond) was an optimist...

[AdeV]

Hmm, I knew I should have listened to what my Physics teacher was saying, back when I was at school...

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Ade,

Thermodynamics, for which I always have preferred Robert Heinlein's description as ThermoGodDamnics, should not be called a science.  It is, rather, an art!  The secret to this art is having several feet of bookshelf of the references that list the plethora of fudge factors and describe when and how to use them to modify the (so-called) equations.

I was "taught" ThermoGodDamnics in college by a professor who was generally acclaimed to be one of the top ten thermodynamics people in the world.  I learned absolutely nothing from him as he knew the subject too well to teach it.  I did not get a handle on it at all until I worked with a recently inked Masters of Science in Engineering type who had just mastered the subject himself.  He was able to explain things in a manner that was understandable.

I have, off-and-on over the past three decades, worked with NASA's top thermodynamicist.  Believe me, I know just how poor my skills are in this arena.  The frightening part is that there are nearly a dozen companies (including some really large, major corporations) where I rank as Mr. Thermodynamics -- something that scares the living bejesus out of me!

[RussellT]

In fact, the biggest immediate problem I can foresee is - what the hell to do with all the oxygen you liberate (2 from each CO2 molecule, and 1 from each water molecule)... sure, some of it could be compressed and bottled, but I'm really not sure about the rest of it...

This isn't a problem, you just release it into the atmosphere.  The system you describe is renewable, when your synthetic fuels are consumed they will use that oxygen and produce the CO2 and H20 that you originally used.

I suspect though that it would be easier to use Hydrogen as your renewable fuel.  It should also be possible to build a world wide grid - using aluminium for conductors.  That would also allow you to produce electricity 24 hours a day by using a selection of deserts.

I live further up the River Goyt from Phil and can testify to the amount of water.  In my opinion this is an effect of climate change and I think the first task of any large scale solar power should be to scrub CO2 from the atmosphere.  The models show that the effects of doubling the CO2 in the atmosphere will take a thousand years.  Governments have agreed to try and limit CO2 levels in the atmosphere to twice pre industrial levels and we're currently at about 1.5 times pre industrial levels.  The effects we're seeing are only the beginning - we need to reduce atmospheric CO2 and we're not going to persuade people to stop using fossil fuels until they run out.

I'll get off my hobby horse now.

Russell