Author Topic: Fly Cutters  (Read 42320 times)

Rob.Wilson

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Fly Cutters
« on: December 25, 2012, 05:53:00 AM »
Right thats Christmas out the way  :coffee:


I have a couple of BT30  collet chucks ,no collets and no closing nuts ,so i was thinking about making use of them by turning them into fly cutters , My question is what is better the disc type or the arm type ? any thoughts on the subject lads .


Cheers Rob



Offline NeoTech

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2012, 07:01:03 AM »
I have been experimenting alot with fly cutters.. Profiles and such.. I must say it depends on what material you will be cutting.

The large disc cutting ones, is great with a small sharp "point" and not a knife profile - cutting cast iron, and in some cases tooling steel. The mass let it takes kinda shallow but rapid cuts with small overstep.

I find the "arm" versions better for aluminium, brass and softer metals, and then i use a "spade" shaped cutter rounded nose with a relief angle for taking alot of materials. And the "knife" shape for finishing...

So i dont think there is a universal anwser to this question.. i have tried different versions coz everyone seems to have an opinion in the matter, regarding what is "best". I prefer the round nosed cutter cause i use flycutting mosly for squaring and putting angles on stuff. I like to make knife shapes for cutting dovetails and such.
But when doing cast iron V8 heads.. i take  round bit shape it to a point but a flat on one side with a angle, and "chip" off the surface little by little with a large 200mm disc for weight.
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Offline Meldonmech

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2012, 07:24:21 AM »
Hi Rob
              I was recently in the similar position when needing a fly cutter with a much bigger sweep and decided to make one.  I find the disc type does cover the work piece and make viewing the way a cut is progressing more difficult. I wanted my cutter to be robust and adjustable, I thought making the disc type adjustable would be more difficult, so settled on one I had seen in a pic. somewhere. The result is shown in a couple of pics in this forum, TOOLS > Band saw broken vice ( update ).

                                                            Cheers David

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2012, 08:15:29 AM »
Cheers for the replies lads  :thumbup:

I think I will go for TCT , I like your adjustable fly cutter David ,that would save making two  :med: ,had a quick look on the web and found this one .
 

Rob

Offline NeoTech

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2012, 10:51:26 AM »
Those adjustable "bar" styled flycutters is nice i have been looking at those on ebay but dont have the means to use them. (Acieran cant hold em). maybe i try to make one someday.  =)
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Offline rotorhead

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 12:57:30 PM »
Hi Rob,

Funny you should be thinking of an adjustable fly cutter.

I'm in the process of utilizing my adjustable fly cutter for another purpose, namely a tram.

I bought a couple of cheap 1" dial gauges, had a bit of bar that just needs drilling and splitting for clamping.

I use a purpose made cutter both for skimming brake discs in the lathe, and then use it in the fly cutter on the miller for skimming heads.



Chris
Chris
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Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 04:54:49 PM »
Hi Chris  :thumbup:

I am going for the bar type , no actual machining done today , hopefully I will get some shop time tomorrow  :ddb:

I did crack out the Etch a sketch today and doodle up the tool holder .So it wil look something like this .I HOPE!




Rob

Offline rotorhead

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 03:40:59 AM »
Hi Rob,

I like those illustrations, what program do you use to get such impressive detail, I have to struggle along with AutoCAD, the free version..... :)

The square on the top of my fly cutter allows me to hold it downside up in the machine vice, and then hold items in it, usually to make indexable cutters to whatever profile needed.

I try to make tools multi use.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 02:15:10 PM by RobWilson »
Chris
Sunny Scunny,
North Lincolnshire.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 06:11:34 AM »
Rob,

About TCT.
 I found that these don't like intermitant cutting.  Back at work I had to do a lot of machining tensile test pieces.  They originated as sawn square section around one inch diameter and nine inch long. We had all materials to contend with,  but found that the constant hammering on the corners (until the pieces had become round) knocked bits off the tips. The only way around it was to grind a very rounded point. about 2 mm radius then to switch back to the normal tip once the bar had become round.
Don't you get this problem with tipped fly-cutters ?

Dave


Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 07:43:47 AM »
We'll all give different answers. One of them is lack of rigidity in our tools to take on carbides.

For what is worth,  some of us stick with hss tooling which suits machinery which was designed to accept hss tooling.

What sort of surprises me is that everone that prattles about carbides- till the cows come home- uses hss drills.

Something to talk about into the New Year, eh?

Norm

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 08:00:33 AM »

We'll all give different answers. One of them is lack of rigidity in our tools to take on carbides.

Something to talk about into the New Year, eh?

Norm

Well here's my answer I aint waiting 'til New Year...........

Carbide is brittle....you can expect it to break due to shock load/impact caused by interuppted cutting...nothing to do with tool flexing......

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Offline NeoTech

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 10:08:17 AM »
Carbide works fine for flycutting, both inserts, and roundstock. And isnt to brittle. I use both. Mostly cause i find carbide makes a better surface finish one some materials than HSS do.

Just because something were intended for one type of tooling doesnt mean its still the "best" solution. Sure it gets the work done and sure its easy to handle. But i rather no resharpen the HSS bit like 10x times for one lengthy operation. When i can use a carbide that more or less works faster and produces a better result.
And i use Cobolt reinforced drills for drilling. Not pure HSS drills, cause i really hate resharpen tools all the time.

For interupted cuts with carbides ive found they hold together better than hss tooling that gets dull really fast when doing interupted cuts. Maybe its just me i dont know - im learning as i go and trying to take note on what happens with my tools (mostly cause im a cheapskate and hate buying new ones all the time.)

What im trying to say is: Pick the right tool for the job at hand, there is nothing really right or wrong. Most tools are developed for a reason. If it fits your need and its what you have learned and know.. use that then.

The insert on the TCT flycutter is really cheap and readily available from multiple manufacturers as well, i usually buy those triangles in bulk from china. U get like a 100 of them for the same price  u get 5 HSS blanks (aliexpress.com is the way to go, they show up and disappear now and then). And add onto that the fact new HSS blanks arent same quality as they were 15 years ago. I got some old HSS from a member on this board, and i love em. I got some new as well and they are used as distance blocks mostly cause they cant hold an edge at all :(
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 11:24:46 AM »
I am lost     Intermittent cut   :scratch:   


Dont ALL  milling cutter cutting edges  come under cutting load ,then no cutting load  whether there are 100 or 1 cutting edges  .whether it be a 3mm cutter or a 100mm face mill

So whats the difference if the cutter has one or five TCT's . Can anyone name a time when all the cutting edges on a milling under normal conditions   are all cutting at the same time ?
   

Been using Carbide for years on home shop  machines without a problems .


Rob 

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 11:45:58 AM »
I am lost     Intermittent cut   :scratch:   
 Can anyone name a time when all the cutting edges on a milling under normal conditions  are all cutting at the same time ?
   


Rob

Yes....If you are cutting across a face of work where the workpiece is greater than the diameter of the cutter....

If your cutter is 2 inches in diameter and the face you are machining is 3 inches across, there will be a time when all of the inserts are in contact....
If you are more/less than halfway across, then the cuts become interrupted....

I've lost more tips than I care to lose, due to interrupted cutting ( and not down to me being ham fisted.... :D )
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Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 12:11:01 PM »
Hi John

The cutting tips are still coming under a cutting force as it makes a cut ,removes material ,then no cutting force , each tip/edge is subjected to an intermittent cutting force .

Centre of the photo above is a one TCT chamfer cutter works a charm .


Rob 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:35:38 PM by RobWilson »

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 12:25:58 PM »
Rob,
      There's an interesting remark or two by none other than George H Thomas about things like starting and finishing cuts with the removal of teeth. Now I have removed quite a number of teeth through careless milling as he describes.

I've ruined a number of rather expensive dovetail cutters in my time- before I read this

Happy New Year

Norm

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 12:27:24 PM »
Three tipped face cutter  4" dia , 3" wide  bar  one tip cutting , one tip to the rear , one tip in fresh air ,  tips cut one at a time intermittently .


If I remove two of the tips leaving just one ,as i have done in the passed wile waiting for a new box of tips , 10 in a boxs end up with one odd one . The cutter cuts just fine , all be it at a slower feed rate . would you expect it to break the tip just because there is only one ,Jut like a fly cutter .


Rob

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 01:04:37 PM »

If I remove two of the tips leaving just one ,the cutter cuts just fine , all be it at a slower feed rate, would you expect it to break the tip just because there is only one ,Just like a fly cutter .


Rob

Rob,

No I wouldn't expect it to break not immediately but over the fullness of time, I'd expect it to be weakened at the tip....and eventually break ?

I think at the end of the day, there are too many variables to consider as to why a carbide insert breaks...Suffice to say, horses for courses, many prefer to use carbide over hss for many reasons and conversely there are those that advocate the use of hss over carbide...

I like both!! :D

The debate goes on... :coffee:
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Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 01:21:56 PM »
Hi John

Just walked passed the shaper when locking the shop up for the night ,


A TCT tool I made for a job , worked a teat  :) cant get any more intermittent than the shaper  :med:


Rob  :beer:

Offline DavidA

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 01:25:19 PM »
Hmmm. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't brought it up.

Dave

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2012, 01:27:20 PM »
 :lol: :lol: :lol:   just banter Dave  :thumbup:


Rob

Offline dsquire

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 01:32:23 PM »
Hmmm. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't brought it up.

Dave

Thats good that you brought it up. It gets the discussion started, people ask questions, people learn things, people ask more questions, and on and on. That is why the forums prosper and are so popular, because people do ask questions and make comments.

Happy New Year.

Cheers  :beer:

Don
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 02:06:35 PM »
Happy new year to all you guys.

And may the price of carbide tips fall to an all time low.

Dave :wave:

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 02:23:35 PM »


And may the price of carbide tips fall to an all time low.

Dave :wave:

 :lol: now that would be good Dave .

To  answer your  previous question, Generally I dont have any trouble with TCT fly cutters , when i do its when i hit a hard spot in a weld  :bang:



Hi Rob,

I like those illustrations, what program do you use to get such impressive detail, I have to struggle along with AutoCAD, the free version..... :)

The square on the top of my fly cutter allows me to hold it downside up in the machine vice, and then hold items in it, usually to make indexable cutters to whatever profile needed.

I try to make tools multi use.

Chris


Hi Chris

I use an old version of Solidworks to do my design work .What version of AutoCad are you using ?

 I wondered about the square , good that you have multi functionality of your fly cutter  :med:

 


Cheers Rob   

Offline rotorhead

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Re: Fly Cutters
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2012, 06:20:58 AM »
Hi Rob,

I tried Solidworks, but after getting used to AutoCad's foibles I found it to be too much of an uphill struggle.

I'm getting old, and with work constantly getting in the way (no pension to speak of), I have to manage the best I can, with what I think I know.

I use 2013 30day over and over, naughty I know, but @ £3K+ and as I don't use it commercially, I don't feel too guilty.

I only play at it anyway, I doubt the drawings are good enough for anyone else to understand.

Chris
Chris
Sunny Scunny,
North Lincolnshire.