Author Topic: Penetrating Oils  (Read 6689 times)

Offline 75Plus

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Penetrating Oils
« on: January 10, 2013, 11:53:56 AM »
I got this from a friend and thought it was worth posting.

Joe

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Machinist's Workshop Mag recently published some information on various
penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate
this. The magazine reports the break out torque values on rusted nuts using
the tested penetrating oils.

Results are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist.
They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the
control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically
rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils ....Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used .................. 516 pounds
WD-40 ........................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ............ 127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix......... 53 pounds

The ATF*-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50% - 50% by volume automatic
transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better
than any commercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with
equally good results.

Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of
the price!

Steve from Godwin-Singer says that the ATF*-Acetone mix is best, but you can
also use ATF* and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix
___________
 
*Automatic Transmission fluid

Offline awemawson

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 01:41:08 PM »
I saw this some time ago and the figures for ATF / Acetone were very impressive - in fact I then bought some ATF & a gallon of Acetone to try it. It so happens that ATF is not mixable with Acetone  :doh:

I do still have a spray bottle of the "mixture" on my solvents shelf in the workshop where the constituents sit as separate layers! I've just ordered a litre of Plus Gas for my next dismantling job (my chain trencher needs the track adjusting cylinders compressing to remove the tracks and shorten them by one link but they've not moved in 20 years!)
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline doubleboost

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 04:08:20 PM »
I saw this some time ago and the figures for ATF / Acetone were very impressive - in fact I then bought some ATF & a gallon of Acetone to try it. It so happens that ATF is not mixable with Acetone  :doh:

I do still have a spray bottle of the "mixture" on my solvents shelf in the workshop where the constituents sit as separate layers! I've just ordered a litre of Plus Gas for my next dismantling job (my chain trencher needs the track adjusting cylinders compressing to remove the tracks and shorten them by one link but they've not moved in 20 years!)

I have always found the best "plus gas" to be oxygen plus acetyline
John

Offline awemawson

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 04:31:28 PM »
Be a bit dodgy in this case John, the cylinders are grease filled !!
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline AdeV

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 06:13:16 PM »
I saw this some time ago and the figures for ATF / Acetone were very impressive - in fact I then bought some ATF & a gallon of Acetone to try it. It so happens that ATF is not mixable with Acetone  :doh:

I do still have a spray bottle of the "mixture" on my solvents shelf in the workshop where the constituents sit as separate layers! I've just ordered a litre of Plus Gas for my next dismantling job (my chain trencher needs the track adjusting cylinders compressing to remove the tracks and shorten them by one link but they've not moved in 20 years!)

Which ATF? There are several formulations, if you got one of the synthetic ones, maybe that's why it doesn't mix?

Then again, maybe you're supposed to shake vigorously immediately before application? I've never seen any usage notes for the ATF/acetone mix...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Or: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 03:39:30 AM »
Well yes that's what I did when I first tried it - vigorous shake forms a temporary emulsion but it soon separates out again. It was this formulation I used to pull my fire damaged hydraulic press apart last year.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:50:23 AM by dsquire »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 02:26:18 PM »
The patent (as in snake oil medicine) penetrating oil of my youth that works well so long as the joint is corroded rather than dendritically bonded is:

   5 parts mineral oil,
   3 parts oil of wintergreen, and
   2 parts acetone.

This was pretty much the standard in the timber and pulp & paper universe of the 1960's.  The old timers preferred distilled turpentine to acetone, but, by the time I was working, distilled turpentine was too expensive to use in anything buy high-quality varnish.  If I ever used that variation, I am unaware of it.

I mix up a pint of this every decade or so.  Whenever possible, I build a clay dam around the joint so I can puddle it and let it sit.  Sometimes I acid-etch as much rust away as I can before using it.  I have never done a torque comparison test, but it works better than almost anything but MIL-SPEC P-12 (which is quite pricey).

Offline rdhem2

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 12:03:31 PM »
Lew;
Have you tried the ATF/Acetone?  I was a Kroil user until I mixed a batch of this stuff up.  Put it up in mustard/ketchup squirt bottles from Wally's World and have converted everyone I have given it to.  A couple aircraft fixers I know say it is like magic--even on aluminum and exotic metals.

Just another two cents worth.             :coffee:
Russ

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 12:24:13 PM »
Have you tried the ATF/Acetone?  I was a Kroil user until I mixed a batch of this stuff up.  Put it up in mustard/ketchup squirt bottles from Wally's World and have converted everyone I have given it to.  A couple aircraft fixers I know say it is like magic--even on aluminum and exotic metals.
RD -- Automatic Transmission Fluid is just hydraulic fluid with various wetting agents and deoxygenators mixed in.  Until fairly recently, hydraulic fluids were basically mineral oil.  Mineral oil costs me $1/qt.  Commercial hydraulic fluids (including ATF) cost a lot more.  The penetrating in P-12 systems is oil of wintergreen which cost (circa 1995) $6/gal.  I use a fair amount of acetone such that I buy it in 5 gal drums.

I ran into the ATF/acetone mix back when I was developing automotive airbag restraint systems.  The problem we faced there was dendritic bonding of mated austenitic stainless steel parts (for which the only solution is plating or making one side of the "joint" be a martensitic stainless steel).  I have never tried it on corroded parts.  It seems to me to be the same basic approach (just without the oil of wintergreen that promotes capillary intrusion).

I don't often have to deal with corroded joints these days.  Nearly all my work is of my own design and manufacture I oversee (if not perform).  As a design & development engineer, I know how to avoid setting joints up to corrode, so it is either working on old equipment or a screw-up on my part that leaves me dealing with corroded joints.  I would have to go back to the mid-1970's to state that dealing with corroded joints was common for me.  I never bothered with Kroil as (A) it did not work as well as P-12 or the mixture I learned to make as an apprentice and (B) it was way to expensive for the results it gave -- at least that was my opinion in the mid-1970's.

Try adding some oil of wintergreen to your mixture.  I suspect that you will like the results even better.  I just thought that a formula from the dark ages might be of interest.  As you say, everybody I introduce to this stuff loves it!

Offline krv3000

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2013, 04:40:36 PM »
Acetone can you get this in the uk if so haw mutchis it 

Offline doubleboost

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 04:48:07 PM »
Hi
Bob
It is used as a solvent for fiberglass work
I can get you some
John

Offline krv3000

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 04:50:21 PM »
that wood be nice just to have a go and see if it works

Offline Swarfing

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2013, 05:43:05 PM »
Have a look in the local pound shop next to the ladies nail varnish. They do quite a big bottle for quid can't be bad?
Once in hole stop digging.

Offline doubleboost

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2013, 06:01:53 PM »
Same stuff  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
John

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 10:34:16 AM »
Have a look in the local pound shop next to the ladies nail varnish. They do quite a big bottle for quid can't be bad?

If it's sold as nail varnish remover then make sure it's not diluted with water. You can buy near pure stuff for removing fake acrylic nails though.

I've never been inside but theres a hair and beauty wholesaler in the Chain Link trade park in Blaydon, if you can't find strong stuff at the pound shop or local chemists then there might be some there.


http://www.mandssupplies.com/stores/newcastle/ oh I found the website but theres a big "Trade Only" poster on it.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2013, 11:11:32 AM »
Acetone is cheap as chips on ebay.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline andyf

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2013, 11:21:45 AM »
If buying at the Pound Shop or local pharmacy, make sure it's acetone and not ethyl acetate Like acetone, that is sold as a nail varnish remover. But for all I know, it might work as a penetrating oil if mixed with ATF etc.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline Doc

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2013, 03:59:39 PM »
Lew;
Have you tried the ATF/Acetone?  I was a Kroil user until I mixed a batch of this stuff up.  Put it up in mustard/ketchup squirt bottles from Wally's World and have converted everyone I have given it to.  A couple aircraft fixers I know say it is like magic--even on aluminum and exotic metals.

Just another two cents worth.             :coffee:
I don't know about this but I use Acetone to weld polycarbonate pieces together. This stuff will not eat right through a plastic bottle?  Like I say I use it for putting small pieces of poly together to make sizes I need  :scratch:. I will have to give it a try and see but mixed with AT fluid does sound like a very good option for some good penetrating oil.
George

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Penetrating Oils
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2013, 12:17:53 PM »
I don't know about this but I use Acetone to weld polycarbonate pieces together. This stuff will not eat right through a plastic bottle?  Like I say I use it for putting small pieces of poly together to make sizes I need  :scratch:. I will have to give it a try and see but mixed with AT fluid does sound like a very good option for some good penetrating oil.

Doc -- Acetone will eat through most acrylics and styrenes given enough time.  However, the polyethylene materials out of which most squeeze bottles are made will contain it quite well.  Now, having said that, I store pure acetone (and other flammables) in metal canisters in my shop for safety's sake.  I only use PE bottles for mixtures having a (relatively) low percentage of solvents and then only in small quantities (i.e. a pint or less).  I use a small-gauge syringe when applying solvents to PC and acrylics for bonding.  I feed the syringe using an eyedropper to avoid dumping too much solvent.