Author Topic: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam  (Read 45092 times)

Offline micktoon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
  • Country: gb
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2013, 07:09:10 PM »
Hi vtsteam , a very interesting project ,  nice work and nice posting too , thanks for showing .
  Cheers Mick

Offline DavidF

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2013, 08:30:41 PM »
VTsteam, you must be a happy guy right about now.  Boring deep holes like that is a tough feat to do well.   So what's next? Or are you going to make us wait for the next installment? 
 :hammer:

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2013, 09:03:05 PM »
Valve calculations!  :hammer: :hammer:




I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2013, 09:17:03 PM »
Thank you Micktoon!  :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2013, 09:34:52 PM »
BTW, I'm very much liking that spade bit steel. It remained absolutely sharp after 2 hours of boring and light cuts, too, which in a sand casting can be rather dulling. The spade bit was hardened full length, too -- when I tried to file the base end, I couldn't.

Considering the cost of tool steel these days a wide spade bit might come in handy for making other tools. I'll have to think about this.

I also think I'll re-do the brazing and clean this one up to be a little more presentable when I'm done with it on this hole -- it's definitely a keeper boring bar. If I choked up on it (baseball bat expression) and the overhang was say 4" instead of 6" it could probably have taken a .010 cut fairly easily and it can fit in a 3/8" hole -- which is tough to do for a bar of any length.

Another nice thing about using a spade bit here was how easy it was compared to the ones I've made out of drill rod. For those I had to heat to cherry, forge a hook in the end, plunge, re-heat and temper, and then grind to shape.

For the spade bit version, all I had to do was grind it to shape -- the other steps had already been done. Plus a top rake cut was already built into the drill bit. I just ground the end of at slightly less than 90 degrees and very slightly radiused the cutting corner, allowing about 3 degrees of clearance under, and carrying that around the radiused end.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2013, 05:55:48 PM »
Reamed the valve space to .001" oversize and checked the fit with a piece of 1/2" drill rod.

Then I drilled .375" upper valve orifices, and then faced down to an eighth above that at 9/16" diameter with an end mill.

Then I blind tapped the holes for 3/8" NPT pipe. The valve body is properly centered under the inlet and outlet bores. Everything looks good.

Next step is make the valve.


I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2013, 02:14:05 PM »
After many days of thinking about and drawing out valve diagrams, I have come to realize that I can't do what I want with a rocking valve. The only possibility at this stage, using the head I built is to go with a full rotary valve. And after much consideration of the way to drive that, I've also had to discard the idea of an eccentric, because I'd need at least two eccentrics and connecting rods to make a full rotary valve work.

The only way to achieve what I want is either add a timing belt or chain drive. I've settled on a timing belt because of the reduced need for lubrication of valve gear. Not my original preference. I really looked forward to making the eccentric gear. It would certainly look better running. But I do want this to be a practical engine, and the focus of this project was  to produce a steam conversion with efficient valve timing -- in fact to be able to experiment with efficient valve timing.

So, I've ordered some timing pulleys -- I may yet make my own after they arrive -- once I have them I can easily copy the tooth profile onto a cutter for that size pulley.

I'll wait on ordering the belt to see what the true distance is after adding the pulleys and a head gasket and bolting the head down.

I'm still working on the actual valve rod configuration, as all my original work is now wrong. Still, I've learned a great deal about valve mechanism and timing -- I think I understand some important underlying principles of valve drives in general now, and shouldn't have trouble designing them in the future.

Here's the engine as it stands now, awaiting delivery of the timing pulleys. And a picture of it back when it was a seized block.







I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidF

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2013, 05:13:25 PM »
I got to thinking,  couldn't you just mill slots thru the valve for the ports?  Kinda like cutting a keyway groove except that it goes all the way thru the shaft and have two slots so many degrees apart. One for admission and one for exhaust. That's provided you didn't drill all the way thru the head yet because you would have to slot those passages as well...

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2013, 05:53:35 PM »
David, do you mean in a rotary or oscillating valve?

Slots in a rotary valve will give you two openings per revolution.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DavidF

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2013, 05:56:28 PM »
Occilating.  So you can drive it from an eccentric.

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »
You can't get the valve timing I want from an oscillating valve. Hard to explain. I've worked my way through this with many drawings, and finally grasp it as a principle. The same thing happens with a conventional slide valve. The midpoints of the openings must be 180 degrees apart for a single slide valve or oscillating valve. I want an asymmetric opening sequence.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline RussellT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 520
  • Country: gb
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2013, 04:46:43 AM »
I have been wondering what would happen if you used a belt drive and a coupling rod - the belt to maintain drive in the right direction and the coupling rod to keep timing accuracy.   It wouldn't be very elegant - but I can't help wondering.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2013, 08:23:46 AM »
Russel, I'm certain that would work, as well. And where new cogged pulleys and belts weren't available, and there was a need to link two wheels, it's one more possibility.

In a sense that is what is happening with wheels running on a surface tied with a rod -- the surface enforces direction. I don't know very much about locomotives, and so maybe an 0-4-0 has the rods out of phase on opposite sides of the driven wheels, as well as the tracks to enforce direction. Railroad modelers will certainly know the answer to that, and I would like to hear about it.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2013, 07:27:37 PM »
Just to give an update on progress, the cogged pulleys have arrived, and I've bored them out to fit the valve and crank shafts.

I've measured the belt length after checking with the head and head gasket installed. I hope I got that right so I don't have to use an idler.  :zap:

I ordered the belt I think will work and it should be here in a few days.

I changed the valve design yet one more time  :wack:, and so had to plug the ports I had already drilled. This head is definitely just a practice head!

I've re-drilled the ports, and am now filing them to a profile I think will work by hand. I haven't shaped the valve spindle itself yet, but that would be the next step. I'm a bit nervous about making a mistake doing that -- it would be very easy to get them 180 or even 90 degrees out of phase, or in reverse positions -- I'm having more trouble with orientation puzzles these days than I did 20 years ago!  :bang:

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2013, 06:02:53 PM »
Milled the valve body today. As predicted I made one orientation mistake, but managed to save the piece as I'd left the stock extra long, and simply reversed it.

Still waiting on the belt.  :coffee:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2013, 10:37:39 AM »
I've been working on this project without posting anything, probably because I didn't have anything positive to post. But that's silly, you can't always post the good stuff. So here's the present state of this conversion.

I received the timing pulleys and belt and made up the valve spindle. I replaced the old piston rings with new ones, lightly honed the cylinder bore, replaced all gaskets and shaft seals with new ones, replaced the old head bolts with shorter Grade 5 bolts to suit the new head height. I blocked off the old poppet valve recesses in the head, and assembled the head and mounted it on the engine. I also mounted the old flywheel.

I gave the engine a try on compressed air, from 10 psi up to 100 psi pressure in steps. It wasn't a runner. The cylinder would move to BDC and stop. It was obvious that there was leakage between the inlet and exhaust ports.

I discovered that there was porosity in the casting along the valve spindle. This would mean scrapping the head and re-casting, as there wasn't enough metal to put a sleeve in.

After thinking about it for a short time, I decided to try using a sealant in the spindle bore as a temporary measure for running on compressed air, just to get the engine moving. So I swabbed out the interior with high-temp metal filled epoxy, let it cure and drilled and reamed again. I knew this wasn't likely to work for long, if at all, but though it was worth a try before scrapping the head. I can't pour metal now because of the winter build-up of snow and ice outdoors where my foundry is. So a new head will have to wait.

The sealed head was definitely better, but the leakage problem was still clearly audible. It may be that the swabbing and filling was incomplete. The engine did reactmore quickly, but still stopped just past BDC. I did try adjustments to the timing by altering the timing pulley positions, but never got past rotation to BDC.

The inlet and exhaust ports through the head into the cylinder are not joined on my design, and I thought that some of the leakage might be traveling axially on the valve spindle. So I added four O-rings to the valve to seal the valve areas from each other. This made a big difference in the amount of leakage. But still the engine could not get much past BDC. The rotation was much more lively, but not enough carry through. I don't think I can get any better without making a new head and valve assembly.

Probable and possible issues:

1.) remaining porosity and rough bore
2.) oversized bore
3.) cold temperatures increasing the clearance of aluminum housing and steel valve (testing in winter with compressed air vs live steam)
4.) flywheel too small
5.) lack of run-in time, high engine internal friction.
6.) valve timing -- cutoff too short (inlet @ 10 BTDC, cutoff @ 90deg ATDC) - more appropriate for steam running than compressed air on this engine
7.) cross port leakage is still present -- audible inlet flow even after BDC if the crank is held stationary. I don't know if this is flow into the cylinder or along the valve. Probably the former, now that O-rings are installed

Anyway, there it is. I'm not giving up. But I definitely need a new cylinder head and valve design. I'd still like to do it with a rotary valve, but the first attempt was pretty much a stab in the dark.

Here's the engine assembled.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2013, 02:29:57 PM »
Hi,

Plan B can't be far away, it just might not be visible yet! You also gave us some really interesting stuff to read about Ralph Watson and his amazing work. I'm looking forward to the next phase of this conversion! The snow'l melt soon and so will the Al!

Regards, Matthew

Offline Pete49

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Country: au
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2013, 10:11:21 AM »
I reckon a heavier flywheel would help push it past TDC. Just a thought
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2013, 11:50:39 AM »
Thanks greatly Matthew for the boost!   :nrocks:     

I've got some Plan B ideas for a rotary valve now that I will try. I'm already modifying the head pattern to cast again as soon as possible.

But I also realized that if I made a bolt-on valve housing as a separate piece -- I could work on a valve configuration (from the solid) now, and test it before I recast the head when the weather cooperates. Then just bolt them together.

A generic head with a simple base boss (say that fast!) and tapped for a bolt-on valve housing can be re-used for many different valve configuration experiments, if need be

Pete, I think you are right -- it might work with a heavier flywheel (and some loosening up by running in for a period).

But I really want the valve to be leak free first. And it leaks some into the cylinder while stationary with the inlet valve closed. That's no good. So I need to make a better valve. Thanks for replying!   :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Brass_Machine

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5504
  • Country: us
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2013, 09:59:51 PM »
I finally got a chance too peruse this thread.

Wow. You really do some fantastic work.  :headbang: :headbang:

Some of this stuff is beyond me for the moment, but I am enjoying taking the plunge with you.

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #95 on: March 16, 2013, 12:27:40 PM »
Thanks Eric!!   :mmr:

You guys' interest keeps me going and not discouraged.  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:

Last night I reconfigured my cylinder head pattern, below. I made a pretty big flat boss -- probably don't need it that big, but it will give room for trying different things.

I'm hoping to be able to work on a prototype rotary valve idea I have today, too. Maybe even just mock it up in materials at hand. I suppose I could test something like that even off of the engine and head. The main thing is to see if it seals well and how much friction it has.







I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2013, 05:18:52 PM »
Well, I got tired of waiting for bare ground and went ahead and cast a few parts right in the middle off a couple feet of snow. Not something I'd want to do regularly, but the castings came out okay. Below is the new head casting, just broken out of the sand and still attached to the sprue.

Feels good to be able to start work on this project again.


I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline dsquire

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2275
  • Country: ca
  • Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2013, 08:34:59 PM »
VT

Be carefull you don't scratch that table or SWMBO may have you living in that snowbank hugging the furnace to keep warm.  :lol: :lol:

Looks like a lovely job of casting though. Glad it was a sucess. It should be Maple Syrup time pretty soon. Maybe you can boil a pot of that on the furnace while casting, don't want all that heat to go to waste.  :D :)

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Good, better, best.
Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #98 on: March 24, 2013, 06:09:09 PM »
Thanks Don,

Amazingly enough SWMBO allowed me to ram up the mold on the dining room table! As well as break out the casting!  :bow:  :bow:

I asked, but figured I'd get a negatory. But she said okay. Guess she knew I'd been waiting weeks for the snow to clear, and took pity after last week's blizzard.

Maples have been tapped for a couple of weeks already, and the local Grange annual Sugar on Snow Supper was in February. I volunteered as a waiter. Funny, I've never boiled sap, myself -- maybe just because there is so many doing it. We get it free for helping a farmer collect sap. But maybe next year with my daughter we should boil up a quart or two of syrup, just to have done it.

Can't do it with foundry heat though -- too short a burn. The local sugar houses run overnight. Takes 40 gallons of sap to make one of syrup -- so it takes a long time to boil away.

Rough milled the new head casting flat today and a couple other pieces -- blocks that were very roughly cast -- no pattern, just carved out some sand for them -- like ingots.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline black85vette

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: Conversion of 4 Cycle Utility Engine to Steam
« Reply #99 on: March 24, 2013, 09:40:50 PM »
Good looking head.   Glad you were able to work around the snow.