Author Topic: Milling machine tram tool  (Read 70073 times)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 04:06:35 AM »
Thanks lads for the comments, glad to have entertained you for a while. As usual, I have enjoyed doing it as well.

My next backlog project will be making some model engine flywheels for a project in the future, for myself and a good mate of mine, who will need one very soon.

Showing how I do these has been done before on other sites, but if anyone is interested, I will catalogue it and post as usual. If not, I will just get on with it.
John

I`m interested!  :wave:


Hope you enjoy your afternoon.....  :thumbup:

David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 04:49:50 AM »
Nice looking tool there John, I will have to put some thought into making one at some time.

Next project, please don't hide it away  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

ja2on

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 02:48:56 PM »
WE NEED BUNNIES INSTEAD OF NANA's

Your wish is my command

Nice work I really enjoy the write up's on this site  :thumbup:

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 03:27:56 PM »
David & Darren,

OK you have talked me into it.
Mind you, you only have to open the fridge door to turn the light on, and I start performing.


Jason,

Quote
Your wish is my command


Great bunnies, but how do I use them, and also a bit brighter colour.

Bogs

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 02:19:14 AM »
Great bunnies, but how do I use them, and also a bit brighter colour.
Bogs

We need happy bunnies!  :wave:

David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline shoey51

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 03:44:16 PM »
what a great read and very informative  :D
thanks John I didnt understand it all but im a newbie with only hours of experience
thank you for your posts this site is going to be a great source of learning for me

cheers Graham

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 06:16:05 PM »
Graham,

That is what this site is all about, if you need to know anything or don't understand what you are reading, just ask.

Or the other way is just let yourself in gently, understand what you are able to, and come back to the older posts when you have a little more experience.

When your are new to this sort of thing, is is very easy to get overloaded with information, because you want to learn everything straight away. Just take it steady and things will start to make a lot more sense.
There is no one pushing you along with a stick  :poke: (well not at this time).

John

Offline Brass_Machine

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5273
  • Country: us
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2009, 07:49:43 AM »
John,

What a great write up! I have to finish a few more bike bits first, but this is going on my 'must do soon' list.

I am on the look out for some bunnies for you!

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline DeereGuy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
    • D1 Adapter Solutions
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2009, 12:34:00 PM »
Another fine example of an excellent write up for a how to from you.  It's what we have grown to expect from you John.:) (Your not only a mentor in machining but in teaching also)

The final step on the lathe for truing up the set up was a light bulb for me.  Thanks again.

Bob

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2009, 04:36:28 AM »
Bob,

Light bulbs are getting difficult to find, it is all low energy light sources nowadays.

I hope they work just as well.


Bogs

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2009, 02:43:25 PM »
 I was getting on with my pillow blocks for my little engine build and suddenly I realised I had a major problem. When milling these little blocks something clearly was out of square. Very much out of square.... :(
Then I remembered this thread. Now then John, if you hadn't previously posted on this Tramming tool I would be in at the deep end pulling my hair out... :bang:
Thankfully yet again you have showed us the way... :thumbup:

I didn't make the same tool, but something similar that would allow me to get the job done in checking and squaring up my milling machine.

This is what I did, Started with a bit of aluminium bar and cleaned it up.



Drilled some 8mm holes, one for the mill head, one for the dial gauge and one again for the dial gauge to span my 4" vice. This should prove handy for re-setting the vice after I have used it at an angle.



Drilled and tapped 5mm on the other egde



Turning an 8mm spigot on a piece of 10mm Stainless Steel rod



Sum of parts, I was going to turn some thumbscrews until I realised I don't have a 5mm die, I'll order one and do this later.



Mounted on the milling machine, when checking my vice the spindle shaft will go right up the collet holder and the gauge can be mounted on top of the ally bar.
Note the reading is zero'd



Turn 90deg and the gauge didn't budge



However, as I suspected the front to back was out. By a whopping 8 thou. That's 8 thou over 160mm or 6.4".
Thinking that this was a bit much I put a piece of 1mm/0.0045" brass shimstock in here (A nice gift from my first visits to Johns place)
I left it sticking out a touch so I could retrieve it if need be.



All tightened up properly and re-measured. Left to right as before, no discernible difference. Front to back now down to 1 thou. Prob nearer 3/4 of a thou.

So a 1mm piece of shimstock = 7 thou change. That's 0.1249mm per thou.
To get rid of the last thou I need something approx 0.125mm thick. A coke can is 0.5mm, a rizla paper 0.3mm.


My question is this, is 1thou good enough cos I can't see how I'm going to get rid of it?

I'd appreciate a quickish reply as I'd like to carry on an re-assemble my vice so I can get back to what I started earlier, the pillow blocks  :thumbup:


« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 03:39:11 PM by Darren »
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3518
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2009, 03:04:11 PM »
Darren stick the paper in you'll compress it when you tighten it down, a little bit more grunt may do it.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 03:18:44 PM »
Thanks Stew, I'll go and try that now and report back  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 03:33:37 PM »
Wow Stew, you're the man  :thumbup:

One rizla, bit of tweaking the bolts and it's now spot on, I mean truly spot on in all positions  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3683
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2009, 03:45:16 PM »
Way to go Darren.  :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3518
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2009, 04:02:53 PM »
Pleased it worked out.

Well done that man  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

 :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:


Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline cedge

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 327
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2009, 06:07:16 PM »
Darren
You'll wonder how you ever cut anything before you got everything zeroed in. Nice job!!

Steve

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2009, 06:13:17 PM »
Darren,

Sorry I couldn't help earlier, but Stew sorted you out anyway.

I hope you realise that this topic is about getting rid of the antiquated system you have just made.

For your pennance, you have now got to use your new found accuracy to make one of my tramming tools.

It's nice being square, ain't it?

Well done.


Bogs

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2009, 07:20:51 PM »

I hope you realise that this topic is about getting rid of the antiquated system you have just made.


Bogs

Have faith, I will get there. One small step at a time. I just needed something that would do the job for now AND one that could double up to sort my vice out as well.

OK, now that the mill is much better set up it's time to sort out the vice.

Mine came with these locating tags. Not much use as they are as you can see. When the mounting bolts are located they pull the vice too far forward to use them.



This turned out to be a simple fix





That done it was now time to true up the vice  jaws to the bed. This gauge reads to 10ths of a thou, I ended up chasing two tenths and then realised that if I simply placed my hand on the vice the gauge would move by two tenths. Wow, two tenths aint much is it ..!!
So I left it at that.



Back to the other tool that I made earlier tonight to set the jaws horizontal to the quill. Now you can see why I made two mounts for the dial gauge. With my vice being handy to set to any angle, it's just as nice to be able to put it back again quickly and accurately.

The vice overall is now easy to set perfectly true, just five min or so and it was all done.

You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2009, 07:55:49 PM »
Darren,

If I could make a suggestion to get a better result for you.

On you first measurement, using the DTI. Instead of clocking along the pitted and worn inside vice jaws, put a parallel in there, and clock against that. You will then get a more accurate 'mean' reading. It would also help if you used your diamond plate to gently knock off any high spots on the jaw faces.

For the second one. The top of the jaws might not be parallel to where your job is sitting down onto. Pop a parallel down onto the inside of the jaw base, and clock off the top of the parallel.

I now see you are starting to come along in leaps and bounds, striving for accuracy. Whereas before it was wack it in, and that will do, now you are talking in tenths of a thou.

Keep it up.

John

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2009, 08:13:56 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions John, really appreciate them.

I've had these two gauges for over twenty years, now I'm finally using them..... :ddb:

I have run the diamond over the jaws, very carefully mind you. I've yet to buy some parallels, they are deff on the list as I find I'm struggling a bit without them.
I've just made a £100 order with ARC EURO For those that have not heard of them. http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/default.aspx Great company, fast delivery and prices that others fail to match.

The parallels will have to wait till next mth.

I notice on the quill of the mill that the scales bear no resemblance to what is actually going on. Makes it very difficult to take really fine cuts. Every time you lower the quill the scales make no sense at all in relation to the last setting. So I have ordered a 4" vertical DRO. That should solve this problem.

I chose an engine build to show me the way to accuracy  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »
Darren,

I use Arc Euro and RDG all the time for my run of the mill bits.

Try this on your mill, I can almost guarantee this is what is causing the misreading.

With the mill turned off of course, wind down the quill about half way without putting the lock on, and try pushing the quill up and down. Usually you can get about 100 thou up and down movement. If what I said is correct, your problem is quill float, there is not enough spring pressure to support the quill, and it is bouncing up and down when you put your cut on.

There is a fairly easy fix, and one of your sash weights comes into the equation.

For your first set of parallels, go for 1/8" thick ones, They are the most versatile to begin with.


John

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3518
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2009, 12:59:47 AM »


With the mill turned off of course, wind down the quill about half way without putting the lock on, and try pushing the quill up and down. Usually you can get about 100 thou up and down movement. If what I said is correct, your problem is quill float, there is not enough spring pressure to support the quill, and it is bouncing up and down when you put your cut on.

There is a fairly easy fix, and one of your sash weights comes into the equation.


I had that problem with my 3 in 1 mill head, never did get it fixed, the DRO helped that and locking the quill.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2009, 07:10:50 AM »
John you are quite right, unlocked the vertical play is about a mm, (I guess it's the backlash in the gearing housing) sometimes when adjusting it sticks up. Then when next released for adjustment it drops with a clunk, but sometimes you don't notice this and that's where the problem begins.  :bang:

At the moment I'm adjusting while the motor is running, certainly not ideal but the vibrations make it drop every time.

Now that I have worked out what is going on it's now workable if not ideal.

If you have a fix I sure would like to hear about it  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Milling machine tram tool
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2009, 12:40:58 PM »
Hi Darren,

If you look at the C-o-C it shows two methods, but a third one could be a tension spring between the quill casting and the position of the the first pulley.

What you are trying to achieve is an upwards pull on the casting around the quill where the bottom of the quill depth stop fixes.

There is no internal fix for this problem, I looked at every and which way.

I succeeded by method 1.

I put as long a piece of threaded rod I could in place of the quill downstop. Then by putting a fairly strong compression spring onto the rod and made a knurled wheel so that I could adjust the tension on the spring to give enough upwards force to support the quill. It was a bit of a PITA sometimes as it restricted your downwards movement of the quill by all the coils compressing up and effectively making a solid tube which stopped any further downwards movement. I lived with this fix for many years.

The pulley system would be a much better fix as you would get unrestricted movement over the whole length of the quill, but still maintain that continual upwards pressure. In fact, now looking at it, if you could put a long tension spring with the one end mounted at pulley position 2 (at the back of the machine) and a string over the first pulley down to the quill.

Once you understand what is required, I am sure you will come up with some solution Darren. My ramblings are just a couple of possible solutions.

Hope it helps

John