Author Topic: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!  (Read 8258 times)

Offline hopefuldave

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Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« on: March 17, 2013, 08:43:25 AM »
Well, a pair of 200 litre / 50-gallon drums arrived this week, one of 'em is destined to become a furnace, t'other a store for waste oil, but otherwise I'm lost... I did some casting / foundry work at college some decades ago, so I can just about remember the basics...

What's a good cheap refractory lining? With the size of the drum I think I can use a 2" layer of mineral wool as an outer jacket (it's rated to 1000 C if supported), can I slip a temporary former inside that and cast a fireclay&sawdust _(polystyrene bead?) etc refractory liner, perhaps 3or 4" thick?

I have a suitable blower, and a compressor to supply an atomising burner,  I like the Kwicky as it's assembled from plumbing fittings, but I suspect it'll need scaling up a fair bit for the size of furnace (12" diameter x 24" tall inside)? I won a high-pressure propane regulator on eBay for preheat, which seems to be essential for oil burners...

 I'm only planning to cast aluminium, so no need for cast-iron temperatures, but a couple of things I'd like to cast are in the 10kg / 20pound and upwards range... Any clues for the daft as to how much oil (gallons/hour) the burner is going to drink? Will I need to pressurise them oil tank for enough flow? I have a balloon gas bottle that could take 30psi happily and holds a few gallons... Tee a low-pressure regulator off the compressor and feed it to the oil tank?

Crucibles... I've seen DIY clay mixes and methods, I've seen welded steel pipe, pros and cons? Commercial crucibles are out of my price range for the moment, in the sizes I'm looking at...

I can probably use lost foam for what I'll cast (unless I want multiples, then it would be easier to make proper patterns), 2 more questions:
Is "drywall mud" called plasterboard seam filler here in the UK, or...?
To get a better finish, is there any reason not to coat the foam pattern with soft (candle?) wax before 'investing' in drywall mud (whatever that is...)? I'd plan to dissolve the foam with acetone, and fire the investment to clear the crap out before the pour, and support the investment with silicate sand (like core mix) - is that feasible?

All suggestions and constructive criticisms welcome!

Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline andyf

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 10:26:22 AM »
Hi Dave,

I think there are many resources on the Web for home foundries. You might get some useful tips here, particularly on refractory mix and lost foam casting. I only mention it because I was the photographer on the pour!
 
< http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/foundry.html >

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline hopefuldave

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 12:02:12 PM »
Hi Andy, there's the problem, so much on the net I'm spoilt for choice!

Nice photography on that site, and some very useful info on furnace and burner building - I'll try that refractory mix and  I might try a scaled up version of his burner, once I get an oil burner going the propane one will make a good blowlamp... Mwahahahaaa...

Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline Jonfb64

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 05:56:56 PM »
Hi Dave,

I recommend you get Dave Gingerys book on the charcoal foundary.I started with that and moved up to the propane variety almost straight away cos i got bitten by the casting bug. I sucessfully made his lathe and was half way through the metal shaper when illness prevented me continuing. Am hoping to get back into it this year as its really exciting to take a pile of scrap and make something useful or aesthetically pleasing.
Do a search with google and you will be able to get the books easliy enough.
Have fun, think safety all the time, it's no fun when your crucible fails as you lift it for a pour.

Jon
 :)

Offline hopefuldave

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 10:34:38 PM »
Hi Jon, and thanks for the response!

I already have most of Dave Gingery's books, including the furnace one, but I'd rather miss the charcoal step - I did a little casting decades ago in Design & Tech at college, so what I remember is from gas fuelled... Also, waste oil comes free (they almost pay me to take it!) but charcoal is surprisingly expensive around these parts.

I've joined the alloy avenue board, there's some really interesting stuff there, but some of it goes way over my head at the moment - there's also the US navy's foundry manual on line, so I've been working slowly through - very slowly.

It seems I have most of the hardware to build an oil-drum oil burning furnace bigger than I'm likely to outgrow, so that's what I'd like to do - slowly working the details out and trying to stay within my budget!

Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 11:33:51 PM »
A 50 gallon drum is huge, particularly if you are on a budget. Major expense in making foundries is the refractory. So your aims are seemingly at odds with your wallet.

Since you want to cast 20 lbs of aluminum as a goal, you can do the calculations yourself.

Find the density of aluminum online and determine the volume of 20 lbs of aluminum. Then determine the size of your crucible from that.

When you have the size of your crucible, make the bore of your furnace 2 to 4 inches in diameter larger than that. Give yourself about 6-8 inches taller in height than the crucible is, and that should give you the ballpark for the lining inside dimensions you need. Then add 2 inches minimum for lining thickness. When you've added all the dimensions of bore and lining together, that will yield the outside metal container size you need -- I suspect shorter (and probably narrower) than a 50 gallon drum. But maybe you can cut one down and that might work.

For lowest cost use silica sand and fire clay mix per Gingery charcoal furnace book. It will work fine for an aluminum melter. You don't have to get fancy with additives like sawdust, grog, etc, it works as is. If you want to spend more or experiment with unknown quantities and materials, have at it.

No you don't need insulation, and if you do use it, you will need to support the heavier mass separately from the insulation, and then also encase the fluffy stuff to protect  it from moisture. Also you don't need anything thing else, by way of lining additives or coatings unless complexity appeals to you. See my Gingery lathe thread on this forum for what can be done with the simplest 1-1/2" thick clay lined furnace of 8" bore using only charcoal.

For an oil burner, there are millions of examples of every description out there on the net. Pick one, ideally the simplest you can find with high heat output and not necessarily highest temp output and it will most likely melt aluminum in the above.  Aluminum wants lots of Btus (calories), but not high temps in a burner.

I've melted and poured aluminum from an open wood fire of pine boughs during a Spring cleanup with no foundry furnace at all. So any foundry with a lining and an adequate burner will do the trick.

None of the above is meant to slight the wonders of modern refractories, high tech insulation, oil burner design advances, hot faces, coatings, etc. It's merely paying attention to your stated needs for low cost and simplicity for a beginner who wants to pour a big mass of AL.

Re crucibles -- I've used cast iron plumbers pots pretty routinely. You will need something bigger. Maybe a piece of 6" pipe with an end welded on --  Better practice than mine would be washing the inside of the crucible with a clay type wash, as iron or steel isn't ideal in contact with aluminum. Or you could spend big bucks on a real crucible -- but again we are supposed to be working within a budget, right? Anything roughly crucible shaped that will hold 20 lbs of aluminum and fit your furnace bore will work, as long as it isn't made out of aluminum or pewter, and if you put a ladle wash in it, should prevent contamination.

My own preferences anyway.....

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline hopefuldave

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 10:24:10 AM »
Thanks VT, all useful stuff!

I appreciate that a 50-gallon drum's on the large side, I'm planning to cut it down a bit, maybe 4 - 6" out of the height (the offcuts can go to supports and such) then turn the edges in an inch for a bit more rigidity, so it should end up 22" diameter by 24 - 26" tall, 14" - 16" by 18" tall inside - still; pretty big, I know, but it'll probably have to do double duty as an annealing / heat-treatment furnace (a local garage sends me hardened parts to machine, and I make stuff of my own...)

Re insulation, I was thinking that only the sides would have it, couldn't see a way to support the refractory lining on top of wool, unless I welded supports coming up from the bottom - suspect that would put too much stress on the refractory? They're kinda brittle, I hear!
 Does this sound feasible? Use a 2" mineral fibre blanket, weld in brackets and rings every 4 - 6" of height, add temporary inner and outer formers to mould the refractory, so the rings would hold (loosely) it in position within the drum and insulation? The sides would have to sit on the base, and I'd have to allow for shrinkage when firing it, I believe?

Steel pipe sounds my kind of crucible, or just maybe a local recycler will have an old steel extinguisher or gas cylinder I can cut the top off - 1/4" thickness too little, too much, delicious? I'll try the wash, and I see people recommending running an empty crucible to oxidize the inner as an alternative. Both?

I think I have the burner worked out, either a scaled up Kwicky or similar atomising with propane preheat and forced air - a trip to the local plumbers' merchant turned up a.useful selection of parts :)

Thanks again,
Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2013, 01:51:17 PM »
Hello David,

I think your inner liner should be permanent solid sheet metal, not rings and not loose fitting to the lining. Your lining will develop cracks, and they are no big deal if supported by a liner, but could be a big problem if it is intermittent support. Simpler this way, anyway. The bottom needs no insulation -- in fact it can be loose sand -- or packed refractory, whichever you want.

I still feel that the insulation is a waste of time in a clay lined furnace -- my melts are usually about 20 minutes, and the furnace shell is barely warm to the touch at the end of the pour with only 1-1/2" furnace lining. Insulation outside of that would only prolong the furnace cool down period, not melting efficiency. This isn't iron pouring, and it isn't long heat treatment furnace running -- those favor different design -- in the first case to get temps up high enough, and the second for reducing heat loss (and fuel expense) over long heating periods for lower  temperatures. For aluminum, you're going to want a fast melt, high heat at lower temps for a short period, and then you're done.

So If I were you I'd just go with a nice thick clay/sand lining -- 2 to 4 inches thick inside a simple steel can

You could try adding perlite to the top to increase insulation and reduce weight. I did this on mine. It does erode eventually, but is easy to patch with more perlite mized with furnace cement. And lifting the lid is a lot easier.

re. th 50 gallon job -- I do suggest you do a little calculation of lining volume for your design, and then work out the weight and expense of refractory.  I think you'll find that you want to minimize the size of your furnace for that reason. Luckily a sand/clay recipe is considerably less expensive than modern castable refractories. But still, it isn't free.

The sand cost is small, but the fire clay (Hawthorn or Redart or equivalent fire clay) will cost you, particularly if you must ship it rather than purchase locally through a ceramics dealer. In fact shipping can exceed the cost of the clay itself. (The sand I will assume would be purchased locally.)

The other thing to keep in mind is weight for moving your furnace.  Unless it's going to be permanently fixed under some form of shelter. Ideally it will be on heavy duty casters on a level concrete floor. Outdoors on dirt, you won't be able to move it easily, if at all. Indoors, you will need a very good ventilation system, which is expensive.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Swarfing

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2013, 02:22:06 PM »
A lot of so called fire clay is actual just deep dug clay (bentonite). In the main this is denoted by the dark grey colour in it's wet state. I've used both and found no difference in the way it works on my furnaces. I always used a perlite and silica sand mix, perlite from the garden centre, sand from the diy shop (the type used for sweeping into block paving joints. If it was me just do a cheap mix and play, as soon as you understand how the melt works you will want to make a better one anyway :-)
Once in hole stop digging.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 02:31:58 PM »
Forgot that you asked about pipe crucible thickness -- yes 1/4" steel pipe is good and won't burn through for awhile. Steel tends to burn through from the outside more quickly than cast iron. Thin stainless steel seems to burn through rapidly -- I tried some kitchen canisters of SS and they lasted only 5 melts before holes appeared. Holes are no fun. Usually they pour down into the furnace tuyere, etc.

The cast iron plumber's lead pots I use now seem to have an indefinite life. But they are too small for your intended 20 lb pours.  It will be tricky handling 20 lbs of molten aluminum -- I'd consider buildng ironman's wheeled pouring trolley if working alone.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Foundry hints and tips for a noob on a budget, please!
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 02:50:58 PM »
Also, David, you asked about a translation of "drywall compound" or "mud" (US) for lost foam casting -- a look-up revealed it is:

  "Joint filler” in the UK
  “Drywall filler” in Canada
  “Fugenmasse” in Germany
  “Joint finish” in Australia
  “Voegenmiddel” in Holland
  “Wall putty” in India
  “Pasta de Tablayesero” in Guatemala

I've done both lost foam and greensand casting, and I much prefer the latter. But there are some things you can do with lost foam that are complicated or impossible to do with greensand.

Zero draft requirement and undercuts and complex shapes are no problem in lost foam. But the pour temp must be very high, thin sections tend to choke, pattern preparation is time consuming (it has to be dipped and then dry thoroughly), sprue usage and aluminum waste tends to be high because of contamination by dry sand, plaster and foam. If a pour fails, you need to make a complete new pattern, coat it and dry it again.

With a regular greensand pattern, you can ram up and re-cast immediately if a pour is bad. While it's often stated that lost foam is ideal for one-off complex stuff, the problem is that often it is not actually one-off -- since the first pour may not be perfect, and then you are faced with making a new complex pattern.

It's fun and everybody who likes casting should try it. But I find myself returning to regular pattern work where possible. But then I enjoy making wood patterns. I also tend to re-use my wooden patterns -- sometimes modifying them for parts built years later -- sometimes adding loose pieces, etc. I consider patterns part of a permanent library of casting tools.

Oh, and no, don't coat the foam with wax. You're confusing lost foam with lost wax casting. Adding wax will greatly increase the amount of flammable material, and evolved gas -- possibly even to a dangerous level. In lost wax casting, the wax is melted out of a mold by baking before casting. In lost foam casting, the heat of the melt burns up the foam -- but to work, this depends on a very small amount of burnable material, since foam is mostly air. Increasing the amount of burnable material isn't a good idea. Surface finish on a lost foam casting tends to be excellent anyway, since the actual molding surface is the wallboard plaster shell.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 03:22:41 PM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg