Author Topic: Threading Die Holder  (Read 22064 times)

Offline Darren

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Threading Die Holder
« on: March 06, 2009, 03:11:38 PM »
Another new project tonight......a threading die holder for my Smart & Brown turret. I needed something to hold the die positively and square to the work.

This one is rather simpler than the norm as I don't need a sliding section on this lathe as the turret does that for me.
Even so, it still might make an interesting read. I make no excuses for lots of pictures as usual.... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:


The stock,
One half shaft from some sort of truck, no idea which....but it was cheap.  :thumbup:
My only reservation is I that imagine it's hardened somewhat. At least around the gear splines it will be....should be interesting.

2ft rule shown for size



I scored it with a file to test it's hardness, yep, it's hard, but still the file managed to mark it. So forward we go then.
Onto the bandsaw, phew....glad I got one of these as it took a while.





Faced the end off, notice the shiny outer and dull inner....hard on the outside and soft inside. That's some depth of hardening  :bugeye:



Still, it machined really well, exceptionally I'd say



Here's the end again



I found that it didn't much like being machined at a slow speed and it liked lots of feed, however a bit too much and the swarf would catch alight....this pic doesn't really convey it too well. Hard to take a picture and machine at the same time. In fact I don't like doing it.
Sometimes you could get it to really light up...... :ddb:
Enough of that silly nonsense, we're grown ups right  :lol:

That's not my tool tip glowing btw, it's a fire  :bugeye:



Started trimming the hardened teeth, with tungsten tips it was no bother. Nice and slow to get the teeth off, and then wis it up to speed. Here I'm taking 25thou off in each pass.



Turned the end to 19mm/3/4" to fit the turret



Lobbed the other end off. Notice the use of the protective padded envelope  :thumbup:



Trial fit on the turret.



So there you go, bore the center out etc and we are nearly there





« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 03:15:03 PM by Darren »
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2009, 04:15:28 PM »
Nice bit of turning Darren  :thumbup:

Cracking finish  :clap:

Cheers

Stew
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2009, 05:22:58 PM »
Blimey Darren, you don't half love to make life difficult.

I remember turning a 3" diameter wagon shaft once, to make a spike to mount on the front of a tractor for lifting those big round bales.

Luckily it was a job that was done where I was working, and I used almost every tip they had in the place. It took all day to get the long taper done. But it worked a treat.

You've done an exceptional job getting that to such a good finish.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2009, 05:32:36 PM »
It's down to the lathe John, it's a really good strong un and just gets on with it. A few worn lead screws etc, but I'm addressing them slowly.

It's real Achilles heell is mentioned in another thread. The belt.... :bang:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 02:10:06 PM »
With the tailstock fettled and now back together I decided to continue with the die holder I'm making.

See, big drill and no arbor spinning, thanks for the tips John, works a treat  :thumbup:
For those reading this and scratching their heads see this thread http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=424.0



Boring it out to 1" to fit the die



Lovely....



Uh oh..... :hammer:
For the want of trying I can't drill this hardened steel. The center drill managed, but only just....but normal drill bits won't touch it.... :bang:



So you knowledgeable chaps, what type of drill bit would you use? I assume as I can lathe it, then I can drill it....
Carbide or a Hard Plate Drill.....

Would carbide do it?

And John, pia that I am I've lost that link you sent for the Hard Plate drill supplier. Can you please remind me....sorry.. :bow:

« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 02:12:09 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Offline rleete

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 04:35:09 PM »
Cool!  If I didn't have one, I think I'd get a set.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 04:49:03 PM »
http://www.leofixings.com/fixings-products_Drill+Bits_Hardplate+TCT+Tipped+Drill+Bits-10-132.html

I don't think that will solve your problem.

I think you are most probably drilling too fast and the tip has overheated, and so hardened the bottom of the hole. Try a new drill, slightly smaller, with a hand brace if you have one, and PLENTY OF CUTTING FLUID. Your other problem will be tapping it, with something that easily hardened or hard already, I think you will be onto a bit of a hiding.

Sorry to be so negative, but that is how I see it. Please, if you can, prove me wrong.

The way maybe to have success is to heat it up to bright cherry red and hold it there for about 5 to 10 mins, then bury the part in DRY sand and let it cool down very slowly over a couple of hours. That just might soften it enough for you to get it finished.



John

Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 06:18:53 PM »
Hi John,

Yes I'm anticipating that tapping may be the  :bang: :bang: :bang:

I did drill it at the mill slowest speed as I anticipated problems,

Can only try and see what happens, thanks for the link  :thumbup:
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 02:44:43 AM »
Hi Darren

John just beat me to it with the tapping issue and annealing the job back, great minds. When you want to do a bit of heat treatment is the time you regret getting rid of the old coal fire and installing central heating, radiators just don't get up to cherry red. :lol:

As you say you can only try it may be OK but don't be put off having to start again we've all got scrap boxes.

Good Luck

Stew
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 01:58:33 PM »
Killer Drill bits

Ordered two weeks ago, had to call them to see where my order was, usual story of the carrier lost them etc.
Sent out again yesterday, arrived today,

I needed a 5mm bit, but had to make the order value up so I ordered 3 sizes of carbide tipped and 6 cobalt drills. Useful small selection.
Except the 5mm I wanted in the first place wasn't there, they sent a 5.5mm instead  :doh:
Small issue maybe, but not to us types is it  :bang:
Anyways, the company is good to deal with. Even by email they are quick to respond, like ten min at most, and are sending the correct one out asap.
Would I recommend them, well despite the small hic-ups yes I would to be honest. They are good to communicate with and do as they say, mostly... :lol:

And the best bit are their prices, not bad at all.
The company is Leo Fixings.com

Here is the killer tungsten carbide tipped bit....I realise you can't see it but this blighter is sharp enough to cut skin just by holding it  :bugeye:



My thanks go to yet again to Bogs for the recommendation. Without which I couldn't find this type of bit anywhere even on the net.  :thumbup:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 07:11:44 PM »
I thought I'd have another go at this again tonight. Trying to tie up a few loose end projects.

It's turning into a bit of a disaster really. Although I can get superb results with this material on the lathe, doing anything else with it is almost a non starter.

You might want to skip back a few posts to refresh. I need to drill and tap three holes to secure and adjust the dies it will be holding. Simple little holes, but boy is it tough going. Normal drills won't touch it. I tried a new three fluted solid carbide drill and it just shattered to tiny little pieces. Good job I was wearing my safety glasses cos they got hit hard.

Then tonight I tried a "Hard Plate Drill" this is a specialist tungsten tipped drill bit for drilling safes apparently.

It just went blunt, I tried it nice and slow with some lube and a fresh new hole, honest Bogs, I did....it ended up like this and a blunt bit to boot...



I'm about to lathe the end off in this picture...to start afresh and get rid of the messy bit.

So now cleaned off on the lathe I decided for curiosities sake to try drilling head on.



That worked fine, after I'd sharpened the plate drill on the little diamond wheel.  :thumbup:
And it even tapped ok, surprisingly...no broken taps either..



Now then, I ask myself why? Is it because the tiny bit on the outer edge is just very hard, but I drilled through that far?
Or is it something to do with the grain orientation of this steel..?


I'm at a bit of a loss on this  :scratch:
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 08:24:13 PM »
Darren,

I wondering if it isn't what is called "case hardened". I went back to the earlier pictures and believe it looks like it's a shaft of some kind with a splined end. If it's similar to a drive shaft I would think it to be a tough metal plus case hardened.

The carbide turning tool would cut that like you showed. As far as the drill is concerned perhaps you pushed to hard to get it to drill. What I don't understand is that you tried another carbide drill and it to wouldn't drill through either.

Yet when you drilled the end it drilled and tapped fine. That makes me think it was case hardened.

Have you tried annealing the metal?

Don't have any other thoughts at the moment.  :wave:

Bernd
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 02:28:22 AM »
Bernd, Darren,

That type of component, (drive shaft?) Would have been carburised to a depth of .100".

Probably......  ::)

David D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 03:25:40 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 03:27:33 AM »
Darren,

Just a little word about Leofixings.

I have never had one single hiccup with them at all, and I do use them regularly for bits 'n bobs, especially drill bits. Maybe someone on their end was having a bad day.

It might be time to call it a day on this one, and find another 'lump' of something. Sometimes we all come across jobs where we have to admit defeat and swallow our pride.
I think I mentioned that I have machined up one of these half shafts in raw form, and it was definitely no fun, I wouldn't like to do it a second time.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 03:47:53 AM »
Hi Guys,

Bernd, David,
yes case hardened, I don'rt have any way of annealing it though.

John,
Leo Fixings, pretty good to deal with IMHO  :thumbup: One of the few companies that actually read their email and reply to them in short fashion.

On the lump, I'm just playing and learning really.
I wish I had somewhere I could just go any buy some new stock, but there is nowhere around here. I'm still trying to figure out who to order from.
Prices vary wildly and most don't quote on their websites.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 08:33:26 AM »
Actually Darren you can aneal at home very easy. If you can you build a nice campfire, nice and hot, throw in the piece of steel and let cook. Then let everything cool on it's own. It should be a lot softer, if not you still could have cooked a burger or something on the fire. Another thing to use would be charcoal and a blower like you would use to melt aluminum if in a home foundry.

I think if you look on the interweb you'll find home made anealing ovens. Just a suggestion mind you. :)

Bernd
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 12:18:57 PM »
Darren

What size bar do you need for this job I've got some nice free machining mild steel 30mm.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 02:37:06 PM »
Thanks for the offer Stew, with the cost of posting these heavy lumps it's becoming more than the material itself for small orders.

I'm going to try to get an order together for a small stock, just searching all my local options first. That is if I could find any.

The part here is 45mm dia, could prob just get away with 40, but 30 is just too small  :thumbup:

I'm shocked just how much metal has gone up in price, it's been a few years since I have bought any quantity, but I never remembered going "ouch" at the prices.
In fact I used to think wood was expensive, now it seems to have become cheaper?
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 07:43:31 PM »

Oh ye of little faith

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Offline malcolmt

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2009, 07:48:41 PM »
Bloody good answer, That really is simple lateral thinking. BIG smile

All the best

Malcolm

bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2009, 10:23:15 PM »
Nice one Darren.

But shouldn't it be? - Oh ye of little faith, but whom still have carbide tips, taps, drills and hair still intact.

You really do need to start learning to give up a lot sooner, otherwise long hours, and the attrition rate of tooling will make you ill and penniless.

If the piece doesn't want to come out of the metal, leave it where it is, and get a bit of metal where it will come out of.

Bogs

Offline websterz

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2009, 10:39:37 PM »
Nice one Darren.

But shouldn't it be? - Oh ye of little faith, but whom still have carbide tips, taps, drills and hair still intact.

You really do need to start learning to give up a lot sooner, otherwise long hours, and the attrition rate of tooling will make you ill and penniless.

If the piece doesn't want to come out of the metal, leave it where it is, and get a bit of metal where it will come out of.

Bogs


Where's the fun in that?  :ddb:
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bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2009, 11:05:47 PM »
Hi W,

It stops being fun when you are trying everything in your power and finances to get the bit out of the block.

It is like gambling, you have to know when to stop and cut your losses, otherwise it becomes an obsession rather than an enjoyable pastime.

If someone else is paying for your time and tooling, it is fine. Having to do it off your own back isn't. Even experience doesn't cover the costs involved.

Been there, got the t-shirt, learned my lesson and remembered it.

Just trying to pass the lesson and answer on, to save others the trouble of having to go thru the same learning curve.


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2009, 01:40:37 AM »
Nice one Darren
 :thumbup:

Thinking round corners.

One thing about the use of scrap materials is that you need to take a clue from what the material was used for as to how good it will be for your purposes, half shafts are going to be made out of something tough, for a die holder you don't need tough material, look round for something else. I made the mistake in thinking the scrap pistons would have made good hubs for my elbow engine flywheel, without first understanding the properties of the materials, but in the end it was good fun learning, I guess you had fun and learnt valuable lessons using the half shafts and in sharing your experience with us we learnt along the way.

Thats the end of my early morning ramble I'm starting to get all phillisophical   :med: (sp)

Cheers
 :beer:
Stew 

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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2009, 01:59:06 AM »
Darren,

Absolute top marks for persistence!  :thumbup:



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

David D.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline jemglen

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2009, 03:06:38 AM »
Bogs makes a good point when he talks about cutting losses on a job that just refuses to come out of the materials - I know, 'cos I've been there so many times  :( Should you press on, spending more money, time and effort or give in and chalk it up to experience?

Fantastic when it all turns out well, though, and this job has turned out very well indeed!  :) Well done Darren  :ddb:

Jerry

Offline Twinsquirrel

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2009, 03:48:20 AM »
Great Darren, A lesson in shear bloody mindedness, at least you know that tool will be completely bomb-proof.

David H
So many ideas, so little skill

Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2009, 04:43:38 AM »
Nice one Darren.

But shouldn't it be? - Oh ye of little faith, but whom still have carbide tips, taps, drills and hair still intact.

You really do need to start learning to give up a lot sooner,


Good grief no John,

I've had some valuable lessons whilst making this piece. My confidence and skill level I feel has risen somewhat. Sometimes persistence and perseverance is what takes us all above the level playing field. Otherwise why bother having a workshop at all, or any other taxing hobby. Might as well just sit and watch the telly each night instead.

Regarding the rate of tool demise this is I what I've learnt.

Bandsaw
, use the fiber cutoff saw instead
Lathe insert tips, don't go through them one by one, use a diamond to sharpen just the one for the whole job
Drill bits, Take the top incredibly hard skin off the material before drilling. Use a specialist hard drill bit if need be. I would have taken more off, except I'd drilled some longitudinal holes in the end thereby limiting me a touch.
Taps, same as drill bits, I only broke a tap last night because I should have taken another couple of millimeter off the diameter. Under that it really started to soften up.

I've enjoyed myself over a few evenings, and it's cost me a lot less than a single Saturday night out. (I don't a rule)

Would I do it again, sure, next time would be a lot easier because of my persistence in finding solutions and working around the problems encountered.
If I'd have given up at some point what would I have gained. A few broken tooling and not much else.
If you were to throw me a piece of normal mild steel and say make this, I'd feel a lot more comfortable tackling it now.

Nope, I'm happy with the situation all round  :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:54:39 AM by Darren »
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2009, 04:54:24 AM »
Nice work and applause for the perserverence, now on the subject of such devices just how does one use it?

Is it fixed in the tail stock and the lathe spindle turned by hand or do you turn the device after (somehow) locking the lathe spindle?

In any case, how is the die advanced?  Do you have to advance the tail stock to do that or is there some other technique? :scratch:

If/when I make one I will be wanting to know how to use it! :med:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2009, 05:02:10 AM »
It's held in this and used under power, doing it by hand is for scaredy cats  :lol: :lol: :lol:



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Offline John Hill

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 05:18:15 AM »
Hey! I am not scert o nuffink! :med:

But when using power what happens to the chips in the die?  I dont usually have more than one die of each size on hand.. ::)
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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 07:44:48 AM »
I dont usually have more than one die of each size on hand.. ::)

Not sure I understand you there  :scratch:

The chips should do what they normally do, that is move into the spaces between the cutting area. Some will fall forward, some fill fall back and be pushed into the bored center section behind the die.

I've yet to use it of course, but I believe it will work fine.

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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 08:10:08 AM »
Would I do it again, sure, next time would be a lot easier because of my persistence in finding solutions and working around the problems encountered.
If I'd have given up at some point what would I have gained. A few broken tooling and not much else.
If you were to throw me a piece of normal mild steel and say make this, I'd feel a lot more comfortable tackling it now.

Nope, I'm happy with the situation all round  :)

Blummin well said Young Man!  :thumbup:

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2009, 12:28:36 PM »
I wanna see it in action! Where is the video??  :poke:

Eric

BTW... Nice job Darren!
Science is fun.

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Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 12:43:59 PM »
Thanks for all the kind comments chaps,

It wasn't hard to make at all, the hard bit was figuring out how  :bang:.....enjoyed the learning exercise.  :ddb:

Eric, I'm not sure I'd want to hold a camera, my phone, and operate it at the same time. Could end up with an interesting result !!!  :zap:


Maybe I need to make a phone holder :scratch:
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 12:45:40 PM »
...

Eric, I'm not sure I'd want to hold a camera, my phone, and operate it at the same time. Could end up with an interesting result !!!  :zap:


Maybe I need to make a phone holder :scratch:

You need to talk to our man, Ralph... make up a camera mount for the lathe!

 :proj:

Eric
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bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2009, 01:40:36 PM »
It isn't the camera holding that is the problem, you need swivel eyes to keep one eye on the job and one on the camera.

You need eyes like a chameleon.


Bogs

Offline John Hill

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 04:22:44 PM »
Darren, when I last broke a die I was told, in no uncertain terms, that it broke because I did not back off frequently enough to clear the chips!

This is one time when I would like to learn I am wrong! ::)
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bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2009, 06:04:22 PM »
John,

I very rarely do any hand dieing any more. Just special threads using carbon dies.

If you start with a nice sharp die, workpiece of the correct diameter and the die spread set for the initial cut, plus as long as you have somewhere for the chips to go and plenty of good quality lube, you usually have no problems.

I think the metal reacts in a different way when hand cutting, it has time to harden, so needs to be cleared before cutting the next bit. With power cutting, it is done before it has time to do anything. Also I would never use carbon dies for power cutting, HSS and above only.

I use both the type Darren is making and also a normal die holder for powered cutting. With the die holder, getting it square is the most important part, that is normally taken care of with a machine holder.

I regulary make threaded rod in small sizes (2mm & 3mm) using the hand die method, Cut the first 50mm, then move a bit more out of the chuck, then cut the next bit. It would take you hours if you did it by hand.

All this BTW is done on the slowest speed the lathe will run at.

You can in fact buy die heads (Coventry etc) that hold a range of threading cutters, but are really for production work.

http://www.namco-tooling.com/coventry-dieheads-chasers.html?gclid=CKaa-aDX1ZkCFQiF3god3SEqZw

Just a bit more useless information.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2009, 03:45:35 AM »
I have to agree with John, not that I would dispute his words mind you..... :lol:

I've never had any problems with using the lathe to power the threading action, even with small 3mm taps into sticky brass.

It's when I do it by hand all the fun begins.... :doh:
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bogstandard

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Re: Threading Die Holder
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 06:57:06 AM »
Darren,

Quote
I have to agree with John, not that I would dispute his words mind you.....

One thing you should never do is take everything I say as gospel. No-one is perfect, and I have made a lot of mistakes in my time, plus my own personal opinions sometimes come into it.
Most times the info I will give will be spot on and in laymans terms, but if in doubt, check it out, and if I am wrong, tell me.

That way we will both have the correct info.

John