buying a milling machine

[Fergus OMore]

Respectfully, I made a lot of points.  I took myself back to numerous 'old masters' and their contribution to what we are enjoying today.
I referred to Ned Westbury- with a far from pointless machine with a No2 Morse Taper spindle and a set of Mini bearings.  I made one- I didn't postulate.  Throp wrote the 'Vertical Milling Machine' book
and there is never a discussion about what is really a question of them 'with it' and 'them without it'. Just plain No2 MT to be belted out or otherwise.
Prof Chaddock used a No 1( now fancy that) in his Drummond and he made models which are still regarded with awe today. He hadn't a mill- then.

Whether people like it or not, that information is not inflammatory - it is merely documented history of our hobby.

[tekfab]

Pete, i'm gutted ! i had no idea morse tapers were so bad. I must go out to my workshop and immediately start converting the tailstocks on my two lathes, the spindle of my milling machine, not to mention my dividing head to accept R8 collets. I don't know how my 1933 lathe and 1952 mill have survived with such a sub-standard system. 

Thank you, without your insight and knowledge who knows where i could have ended up.

Mike

[Rob.Wilson]

Pete,
          Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.

Apart from the fact that the first half of his post was completely pointless and unnecessary and the 2nd half didn't really say anything that people hadn't already said.

I looked back through the thread and all I saw was friendly advice based on the experiences people have had with different machines, what some of the advantages and disadvantages of  certain configurations are and advice on tooling.

I was also going to say the same as Matthew and Pekka said, i've never needed more than a tap to release my morse taper tooling either.

Well said Nick ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I don't see any reason for the  out burst .

Pete, i'm gutted ! i had no idea morse tapers were so bad. I must go out to my workshop and immediately start converting the tailstocks on my two lathes, the spindle of my milling machine, not to mention my dividing head to accept R8 collets. I don't know how my 1933 lathe and 1952 mill have survived with such a sub-standard system. 

Thank you, without your insight and knowledge who knows where i could have ended up.

Mike

  funny  Mike ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 
OK, Pete- we are now TWO of a kind.

Cant argue with that one 



Rob ,

PS,  I will be sticking with Morse tappers 

[doubleboost]

Hi
Lads
I have a chester 626
I bought it second hand & have done a few mods to it
Plenty of video of it being used on my youtube chanel
It ha a R8 spindle which has been no problem at all (R8 has the advantage that there is plenty of cheep tooling around) (same as a bridegport people "borrow"the tooling from work
Nothing wrong with morse taper it has been used in lathes forever

Hard to see why people are getting all exited about such a simple subject
 
John

[Brass_Machine]

Hey guys,

Disagreements are a part of life, but let's keep the flames away. I am asking we present opposing views without attacking each other. OK?

Eric 

[ieezitin]

Lads

I believe what i read from all that was being written and offered was a classic case of " Quod erat demonstrandum" from there perspective, it worked for them and they were willing to share there opinions and proofs.

Here's mine, I don't like the MT system because what has already been stated but i over come it who care's, i have even stuck fag papers over the little buggers to stop the slip, my point is i have to work with what i have and so do allot of other people, so MT tapers in my book is a negative.

R8 is a great system, its one of a few designs that work as it should and designed for, its very common globally which makes tooling reasonably priced, saying that i believe in the UK its harder to find machinery which accepts R8 arbors, and the OP is from England so that is a consideration. so R8 is a positive in my book.

ER system, have no idea so i have no comment.

I think its a duty for the experienced members of our club to give a major consideration in what its like to Be new in this hobby and how much of a major disadvantage it is, they have no concept in what it takes to machine even the most simplest of jobs, they don't realize the difference of a column mill/driil or knee fixed head v-way system because they have never done it, they have no clue what a QCTP has to offer over a lamppost design blaa blaa and so on.

90% of the members on this forum do a smashing job in sharing there wealth without being condescending, I have over the years of being a member here have noticed talented people explain the simplest things to novices where suddenly the light bulb ignites, when most people of knowledge here answer to a posting they understand the OP skill level and advise accordingly. I read this on this post.

The OP is new, he is asking opinions to which he received,  what ever road he chooses he will never be satisfied with his purchase because through his own learning curve his acquired knowledge will have advanced and problems with tooling, accuracy, reliability will surface to a level he does not know right now, there is no substitute for hands on experience he will surly find this out i wish him luck, my advice is stick with it as it is a very rewarding hobby.

So now you know where i am coming from i will sum up.

Fergus, although i find your postings interesting i sometimes squint to find a hint of useful information, i know you have allot to offer try to de-clutter it.

Miner, like i stated the op is new, I doubt he is concerned in making the balls in an angular contact race square, the guy just want to buy a milling machine.

Happy Days........   Anthony.

 
   

[John Lindo]

I have had good results from (Amadeal (Hugh)
The Chester looks like a Weiss mill 16 same as mine.but includes a stand.
consider if you want to put the mill on a bench to conserve space.
I my mill daily and never even had to do any service,other than clean and lube.
I am not keen on a tilting column,fixed is best,with the tilting head,although I use this feature rarely.
John
Spain

[vtsteam]

There are a lot more economical and understandable ways to simply say:

An R-8 form is designed to hold by the action of the tension on the draw screw, while an MT is designed to to hold unsupported. Therefore an MT has a shallower and longer taper.

When a draw screw is used with a Morse taper (and it often isn't) and tightened too much, the taper can seize and be difficult to remove. Likewise dirt or scratches can cause seizure, or on the other hand, the operator may over tighten a damaged taper because its wedging action has been diminished.

However, if clean and in good shape, and with light screw tension, or where no screw is used, they can serve well, long term. Their advantage is that they are compact compared to an R-8, at least in the smaller sizes, and they can be quickly attached. A place where this works very well is in a tailstock of a lathe.

An R-8, will be easier to release, and can be tensioned further, since it is specifically designed to close with a tension screw. Those are qualities appreciated in a larger milling machine.

MT tapers in milling appeared prior to the invention of the R-8, but were frequently seen on smaller workshop mills even after because of the economy and convenience of using the same taper for small lathes. Interchangeability.

This was important because many home workshops aren't funded by profits from machining, but by the ability to save occasional  pennies in a pig shaped bank while raising a family. With careful work, small machines and limited equipment have turned out remarkable work over the last century or two.

[vtsteam]

I should have mentioned that an R-8 also has a slot that mates with a key in the spindle bore to prevent rotation, while an MT does not.

[S. Heslop]

There are a lot more economical and understandable ways to simply say:

An R-8 form is designed to hold by the action of the tension on the draw screw, while an MT is designed to to hold unsupported. Therefore an MT has a shallower and longer taper.

When a draw screw is used with a Morse taper (and it often isn't) and tightened too much, the taper can seize and be difficult to remove. Likewise dirt or scratches can cause seizure, or on the other hand, the operator may over tighten a damaged taper because its wedging action has been diminished.

However, if clean and in good shape, and with light screw tension, or where no screw is used, they can serve well, long term. Their advantage is that they are compact compared to an R-8, at least in the smaller sizes, and they can be quickly attached. A place where this works very well is in a tailstock of a lathe.

An R-8, will be easier to release, and can be tensioned further, since it is specifically designed to close with a tension screw. Those are qualities appreciated in a larger milling machine.

MT tapers in milling appeared prior to the invention of the R-8, but were frequently seen on smaller workshop mills even after because of the economy and convenience of using the same taper for small lathes. Interchangeability.

This was important because many home workshops aren't funded by profits from machining, but by the ability to save occasional  pennies in a pig shaped bank while raising a family. With careful work, small machines and limited equipment have turned out remarkable work over the last century or two.

I've been reading stuff around this MT vs R8 debate for quite a while, since i've been in the market for a mill for just as long (as in, i'd love one but it'll be a while before I can afford the sized one i'd like), and this is the best explanation of the two tapers i've seen yet. Most stuff i've read just implies that morse taper is generally inferior to R8 and mentions the locking thing, so my assumption till now was that they were just an old fashioned standard that stuck. So it's interesting to hear the pros and cons put so clearly.

[raynerd]

Thanks for interesting and useful messages that have been posted on here however I've not been using madmodder too much over the last 6 months due to getting  attacked by negative messages from self proclaimed pros and the random negative tangent this thread took made me realise why.

So long for now.

[NeoTech]

My 2 cents for what its worth..

Your asking about buying a milling machine.. What taper it uses is pointless to look at.. sure it could be convenient using a self releasing taper. But when it comes down to it.. most tapers can have adapters and converters attached to them... I use W20 with a homemade ER32 collet holder and MK2 taper converter.... My lathe uses MK3 and 4 and D1-4... In the end.. i just make the tool i need to convert it to the tool i wanna hold in the machine...

When it comes down to machines.. How much space do you have.. Floor space and headroom.. I went and bought a Aciera F3 machine cause it has a small footprint and isnt 2.5m high. I have a  Optimum BF20 machine that is stated "german" but is in fact made in china (same as the weiss machines).. And it sucks.. Its a good candidate for cnc conversions, but not any heavy milling..
The heaviers series of these chinese machines is prob. a good bet for a machine. The 626 series machines seems to be in good use, but need som roof clearing.. in my case i have a shop that is 1.80m in height.. Im 1.78.. i fit exactly inside the basement ;D

I suggest you look at your space available, look at a machine fitting that space and disregard the rest.. Ease of access to tooling is a convenience not a requirement - it can always be fitted if you really want to - and got a welder, sledgehammer or a shop press.. ;)  *troll warning*

[Fergus OMore]

There is no magic - black or otherwise in this Morse Taper lark. I'm surprised that no one has been minded to tell beginners what it is all about. So let a bloke who came out of a sh1t row in a downtrodden mining village at the age of 14 after a wartime education explain. Yes, folks- it explains a lot.

Morse wasn't this masonic policeman bloke in the gleaming spires of Oxford with a 'adopted' Lewis son but was a bloke with a simple sine bar of 10 inches( you might have a 5 inch one) and a set of gauge blocks. It's the sort of kit that every self respecting fitter and turner makes up- sometime. The concept is quite ancient. Most put it at Pythagoras or even Euclid but it is a lot lot older.

All that Morse did was stick a 1/8th bit of gauge block under one end of his 10 inch bit of stuff and you have all the Morse Tapers.

But- there is a cloud- enter the village idiot who cannot measure a simple thing like that- and the once very simple angles have been buggered about- to become accepted standards.

That's the simple truth- nothing more.

[mattinker]

Hey Norman, you only just began your explanation! You didn't say that for some inexplicable reason Morse didn't get the same taper on all of his tapers. There is also a little known taper that is a 4 1/2 morse taper that lives in the nose of some Colchester lathes.

 http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/Tapers.php

Morse tapers are a fact of life, I fully understand why anyone would want to go for R8, but it all boils down to what you've got, and what you can get. On the French second hand market, morse tapers abound, followed by SA40 and SA30. Bridgeports are rare beasts here so there isn't a lot of R8.

Regards, Matthew

[Fergus OMore]

Hi Matt,
            Back to basics- sorry!

Forget everything that is assumed and go back to the workbench. You have a sine bar- a standard one and a plain 10" one and a box of Jo Blocks. Nothing more apart from a schoolboy reckoner or a slide rule.

Your exercise is to create an angle- nothing more. Your 10" length becomes the hypotenuse. The gauge block chosen is a simple one - an eighth and that is Morse.

All that Morse did after that was provide easily found sizes- in Imperial.

Sadly, someone balled the issue up.

I would agree that is does appear a simple solution- and therefore shouldn't be right.

Oddly, maths IS or was simple stuff- usually mucked about by some clever arse.

I was discussing navigation with a bunch of RAF navigators- you know the sort of thing- flashing lights and whatever in multi million things and I mentioned that equally accurate measurement was done with a few sticks a bit of rope-- and the planet Venus. I had a helluva job missing the Sidewinder missile!

Anyway, I hope that this was interesting and who knows- believable.

Regards

Norm

[Deko]

Hi BBB,   I bet you wish you had never asked now eh ?    I feel sorry for any newcomers to the hobby because whenever they ask a simple question, every other post will give a different answer so how the hell are they going to decide which bit of advice to take.  I started with a Boxford lathe bought in bits from the scrapyard and with NO prior knowledge put the thing together and played around with bits of scrap metal, and made lots of mistakes, but learned a lot on the way. I next bought a small mill and did the same. I now (after many years ) have a Chester UK DB10GVS lathe, And a Chester UK Champion 20V mill, and am only now starting to turn out some reasonably accurate work. (see my fibre optic clock thread) I will also say that when I first started I was unencumbered with access to the internet and so spared all the conflicting advice, however I will say that when you do get started the forums can be useful for finding different ways of doing things.

Cheers Dek.

[vtsteam]

I agree Neotech, Well, besides the availability of a choice of R8 and Morse tapers, which originally I merely mentioned in trying to describe the differences between two machines the OP was asking about, there were other considerations mentioned.

They were expressed in a way that merely put some basic facts out there, as well as a couple of gentle preferences on my part about my own mill, clearly labeled as personal.

For some reason only known to the gentleman on the handle, a sledgehammer was later brought out and swung wildly in all directions, over his own taper preferences and his disdain for those who are happy with theirs. This has apparently led to a long time and valued member here giving up on the forum as a hostile entity.

I hope that people might back up a bit, recognize that the idea here of a social group dedicated to pleasurable madness around modding should allow for a variety of approaches to that. And such an odd and unusual stew needs to be seasoned with admiration, support, and respect. I mean, do you want life to be fun, or a misery?

Always an important question to ask yourself, whatever you do. Otherwise..... well, I'm sure you know the answer.

[Fergus OMore]

The choice is anyone's! 

I have always followed a logical progression.

My lathes have always been with Morse Tapers at each end- starting with No 1's and O's but now 2MT.
In fact, I have never used -or found any other funny variations- apart from my watchmaking stuff on Pultras etc

Consequently, I made and bought tooling which would fit and my milling machines- which are only lathes turned 90 degrees are MT and interchange accessories. It goes a step further, all my tool and cutter grinders have tooling which interchanges with lathes, mills and whatever and I have the dividing heads and rotary tables all with MT tapers.

So I can swop about- with impunity whatever that means.

My little workshop is small, it is a hobby not a factory and works admirably. 

If I got it wrong- it's too late now

[John Stevenson]

Your exercise is to create an angle- nothing more. Your 10" length becomes the hypotenuse. The gauge block chosen is a simple one - an eighth and that is Morse.

All that Morse did after that was provide easily found sizes- in Imperial.

Sadly, someone balled the issue up.

Yes and that person was Morse himself because he couldn't replicate the same taper on different diameters, that's why the difference.

[Fergus OMore]

           I recall that way back that someone actually spent a great deal of time researching
'Who was Mr Morse?'
If my Pelmanism is holding out, no records of Morse's company emerged in the US Official records search.

Perhaps you could quote from the prime documents?

[John Stevenson]

No point.
If George Thomas didn't quote it then it wasn't true.............

[andyf]

Stephen A. Morse, founder of the Morse Twist Drill & Machine Company in Massachusetts from 1864 to 1990. He developed his tapers for his twist drills.

Not a lot of people know that.....

Andy

[mosey]

Or, you can type into your browser "Stephen A. Morse" and find out when and where he was born, went to school, what he invented, what his numerous companies were called (American Standard, etc.), etc. and some other facts.
Mosey

[andyf]

Well, there you are, then. I initially found him in a 1900 engineering book.

Andy

[Bigbadbugga]

I haven't run away lads, I'm still here and taking it all in.

As far as the taper subject is concerned I'd like to thank the few people who took the time to explain the workings of the two main types. But im pretty sure that any system that has been around as long asit has cant be all that bad, I see this first machine in the same way a beginner musician might view their first guitar, buy a mid range brand to start learning and then if you find you are any good you can buy a Martin.

I think I'll be going for the Chester 20v, it's the right size and price for my current needs.

However, after a short visit to my workshop this afternoon I have decided reluctantly that the mill will have to wait, the two inches of water covering the floor has indicated the need for a new roof before autumn (fall for those across the pond) and being a 5M x10M timber structure it ain't gonna be cheap.