Author Topic: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)  (Read 16723 times)

Offline NeoTech

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NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« on: August 04, 2013, 08:19:44 AM »
So i thought i would make a new thread instead of soiling my "question" thread of bargain buying crucibles..

So to sum it up, i made a furnace, with a propane burner and i did some cooking of that furnace yesterday and today i made some ingots.. The ingot mold is two pieces of L formed steel welded into the shape of two V's with a wall.. i made them stand up a bit from the ground, it helped when i needed to pry the ingot out of them..

Anyway.. 2 pistons and some valve cover i had lying around.. Ended up like this. ;)




Now trouble shooting..
My propane burner is of the jet burner type with a small nossle for the gas flow.. This works great when its cold.. When it has run for a while and it got "distbured" a wind gust came and well blow on it.. What happened the damn thing starts pulsing or dieseling.. anyway sounds alot..  And.. the temperature is dropping alot.. from 730-740C to around 650-680C..

So the first batch i did. no problem at all, the aluminium melted well and it got hot enough to poor without problem.. The second run i did.. well slag formed alot more, unmelted parts needed to be stirred out in the melt.. And the third run was the same.. The two last runs had the annoying pulse jet sound.. It dont go away unless i choke out all the air intake and it just becomes a big sooty flame.. Even if i lower or raise the gas flow it wont stop.. it just sounds more or less..

This is a tad bit annoying.. and confusing.. Any suggestions of corrections on the burner?  Is it not enough airflow that causes it when it gets hot? The only air intake it has is through the burner tube.. I have fitted a piece of steel to the burner tube so it centers in the inlet tube on the furnace.. its quite - snug.. i wonder if it would be a problem or not? I recon the air should come in through the burner not around/outside of it.

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Offline Meldonmech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 09:49:35 AM »
Hi NeoTech,
                     Have you any pics, or drawings of your burner, this would make it much easier to diagnose the problem.

                           Cheers David

Offline vtsteam

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 09:57:45 AM »
How big a propane tank are you using? Is it getting very cold?

Or alternatively, is the nozzle getting too hot?

It's a time dependent problem, so those are two things that change over time.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 12:42:27 PM »
It seems like the tank was getting cold when the "pulsing" started.. In combination with not that much of gas left in the tank it seems like it got starved..
The tank is 6kg propane tank (P6).

But i was gonna do a 4th run (got alot of pistons to melt) and it never even could manage 400C.. so it just toppled off at 380C and started falling back. the refractory didnt go all read. And quite fast after just a couple of minutes it started to pulse. I tried to reset it by choking out the air and let a flame form and then reintroduce air, but it just wouldnt play along.. A friend of mine suggested the tank has gotten to cold for the remaining gas to keep pressure.. And so we took temp on the tank it had fallen from 24C to 19C rapidly.

I will go and exchange my P6 aluminium tube for a P11 (11kg) Carbon fibre tube in the morning - its lighter to carry anyway..

And this is the design of the burner. - it just a 0.8 mig tip on a slab of steel fitted to a 21/32 fitting so i can use the handle, and a tube is snuggly presed onto it.. The tube itself has a centering ring on the air intake of the furnace and a steel tube as a choke. (nothing fancy)
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 01:49:38 PM »
My propane burner is similar, and it can be a bit finicky some times.
On a windy day, I put something on either side of it to block the wind.

My burner is very sensitive to the choke setting.
Occasionally, and for some unknown reason, it starts the pulse-jet thing, which is combustion occuring inside the burner tube (not where you want it to happen).

I have to turn off the burner, pull it from the furnace, and relight it.

The pulse-jet is bad since it will overheat the burner tube and can cause problems.


Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 02:12:05 PM »
then i wonder.. should the burner tube be shortened.. my tube is 30cm.. and has 4 slots of 14mm wide and 10cm long..

But yes, it seems like the pulsing is a combination of different things.. i dont have a flare on the tube could that affect performance? Its weird anyway it works for a long time until it gets to hot and the gas feed cant keep up.. or as you say a windgust comes by and suprise feed it to fast..

Like the performance when it runs right though..  20min from cold to pouring temperature when it hit 760 i just stirred it a bit while in the furnace without taking the lid off pushed all the slag to the bottom of the crucible and then opened it and poured it..  i cut one of the ingots in half and found no pours in it.. and its no pours on the surface either.. So far very happy with it.
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 02:31:47 PM »
Propane burners are notorious for cooling off the propane tank, with a resultant drop in vapor pressure.

And when that happens, the burner gets too lean, and yep, you can certainly start the pulse thing with a lean burn.
You may have to watch the pressure, and adjust the choke as the pressure drops off a bit.

If you are doing large melts, you can avoid the problems of propane by using an oil burner, but I still use propane for aluminum melts, and with little trouble even with the pressure drop.

Here is my burner.
It is a commercial unit, but quite long.
I use it with a flair on the end, but I don't think that is critical, but you never know.
I have seen a lot of short REIL type propane burners, and they seem to work well also.
One thing I have heard about aluminum, heat it fast, skim it, and pour.  Don't stir, you are just getting gas into it (according to others).
If you are not having any gassing (pores?) or inclusions, then that is good.

Aluminum pours are very forgiving generally.

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 02:43:35 PM »
Ah yeah, when it start to pulses, i choke down the air intake a bit and it stops pulsing, but when i do that i cant reach melting temperatures.. so i need to figure a way of make it stop pulsing.. Which i guess i easier said than done..


Yeah i put a bunch of charcoal in the bottom of the furnace that i used yesterday for cooking the lining.. i poured a bit of it in powdered form in the bottom of the furnace.. It produces alot of co2 gas so if you stir it and you dont "open" it up the furnace enviroment is basicly without oxygen or well very very lean anyway..

vtsteam suggested putting some stuff onto the melt i figured it just should be inside the furnace and burning producing gas - and well i got no pours so maybe it worked. =)
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 03:37:22 PM »
You can get a larger tank, or parallel two smaller tanks (requires two regulators), or put your tank in a tub of warm water (water is the last thing I want to have around a pour).

Perhaps an easier method would be to put a fan blowing on the tank to warm it.

My philosophy is:
1. Don't solve problems that you don't have.  Use the most simple solution with the fewest parts, and if that works, then don't add complication just for the sake of doing it like someone else mentioned.
2. Find a base setup/arrangement that works, and then experiment after you get a working arrangement.  Some people change too many variables too quickly, and it can be difficult to figure out cause and effect doing that sort of thing.
3. Some like to experiment and learn as they go.  For me, I would rather look at a number of working systems, and then combine the best of all those systems into a hybrid design that works better than any individual design, or at least combines the good parts of a number of different designs.

I don't use additives, charcoal, crucible covers of any kind, stirring, etc.

What works for me is using clean aluminum only, melted as fast as possible, skim and pour.
Don't make it more complex than it has to be (is my philosophy).

There are methods that can be used for degassing aluminum, some very toxic, some expensive, but if you don't have gassing problems (I don't) then don't solve problems you don't have.

Just my approach; everyone has their own method to the madness (or should I say MadModderness).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 04:46:52 PM by MetalCaster »

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 04:02:31 PM »
Well yeah, i have a bunch of lettercombinations that let me think lateral i tend to be category 3 there.. i read a ton of information and then i break it down and ask myself - why.. what is the endgoal by "doing it like that".. and if i see logic in it i try it.. if it works fine i keep it.. if not its discarded..

But yeah, clean aluminium is problem the best way to go.. problem all my aluminium scrap atm is either lathe swarf or cast car parts, like transmission housings, pistons, intake manifolds and such.. i break em up and just pour them into ingots.. but well i need to make a larger crucible.. cause i get like slightly less than a kg of aluminium in 3 pours. =)

But when it comes to my burner.. i think i will get myself a PA11 tank.. its a 11kg aluminium tank. I can heat that with my NOS tube heater from the race car..  And then go do another test.. and see if it will "pan out".. or if the pulsing problem will come back.. and if it keeps going and its like you say it explodes in the burner tube.. i guess i could back the tube out a bit. And i should take into practice cooling it between runs - or just make several tubes i can swap between..  *they are not welded or screwed together its just a slipfit that friction sticks*
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Offline vtsteam

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 04:20:31 PM »
Groan....
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 04:42:35 PM »
hehe, vtsteam i thought you already figured it out that im not really taking any suggestions for granted and try stuff out until i get it to work.. nothing to groan about. =)
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 04:49:38 PM »
I have seen a lot of suggestions from a lot of folks about melting and pouring metal.

Some of it is good information, some of it is bad information, some of it is good information that is not applicable to me, and some of it is true in some sense but totally misleading in a more grand sense.

Sometimes I use a bad suggestion twisted around in a different format to create a better application.

I use some ideas from pretty much everyone.
There is much to be gained from reading all of the casting posts that are available, regardless of the method.

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 05:05:02 PM »
Well, knowledge doesnt weigh anything.. Its just impractical for some people to experiment i guess.  I ventured into this mostly cuz its cool to melt metal . I dont really have any final purpose with it more than the fact that i can make my own billets. =)
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 05:10:06 PM »
I like to experiment a bit, but that can get very expensive very fast, and my wife informs me that I waste plenty of money even before I start experimenting.

I would really like to have a mini induction furnace and some small crucibles (about a 1 cup size), so that I could experiment on a small scale without having to fire up the big furnace.

You could theoretically operate an induction furnace indoors, if the fumes did not get you.

With a mini-setup, you could try lots of configurations in a very short amount of time.

I looked at induction furnaces, but it is too much money for too little melting ability.
You really need a 3-phase power supply for a decent sized induction furnace, and a pocket full of money too.
An oil burner is a poor man's induction furnace.

Edit:  And there is something magical about red hot molten meltal pouring out of a crucible (unless you spill it down inside your shoe, then the magic is gone).

MetalCaster

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 05:14:40 PM »
You are not letting the end of your burner protrude into the hot part of the furnace are you?

I keep the end of the flair back slightly into the refractory of the side of the furnace so it runs cooler.

And I pull the burner from the furnace if it is not lit, otherwise it tends to overheat from residual furnace heat.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 08:57:18 PM »

vtsteam suggested putting some stuff onto the melt

.......snip.....

hehe, vtsteam i thought you already figured it out that im not really taking any suggestions for granted and try stuff out until i get it to work..


Huh?

What in the world are you two talking about?


I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 09:59:12 PM »
A nearly empty 13 pound propane tank is probably the problem. A small barbecue tank in the states is about twice that size.

The last of your propane in that small tank chilled very rapidly.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 06:54:44 AM »
Went and got me 25lbs (11kg) propane tank today.. went with the aluminium one, i was told they are easier to sustain temperature on. I have a heating blanket running on 12V i thought i would wrap it in.
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2013, 07:06:00 AM »
I looked at induction furnaces, but it is too much money for too little melting ability.
You really need a 3-phase power supply for a decent sized induction furnace, and a pocket full of money too.
An oil burner is a poor man's induction furnace.

Have you checked these: http://www.fluxeon.com/Roy1200open.html  ??
They should theroticaly scale quite well or just run 3 of them at the same time with overlapping coils..
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2013, 01:37:04 PM »
So the pulsejet problem is still an issue even with a filled tank.. After closer inspection firing it in my basement without any winds..  the pulsing can occur when the choke is open to wide.

With the full tank its reeeally easy to make the flame go out by opening up the valve to much. and the choke makes it pulse when opened to much.. the dangerous part is that the ignition occurs in the tube, like 1-2cm from the mig tip.. you can see the blue ball form and getting pushed forward.. so most of the ignited heat is taken up by the burner tube..


Should i start over?!? Make a new tube with smaller intake.. maybe only 1 14mm slot and make that slot like half the length??
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Offline awemawson

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2013, 01:53:38 PM »
To avoid 'burn back' your gas  speed at the jet has to equal the flame speed. If it is slower and you get a burn back it is potentially quite dangerous. In oxy-acetylene burners it could be lethal, but as you only have a fuel gas and no oxygen other than that from the atmosphere, it is somewhat less likely to demolish your house  :ddb:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2013, 02:11:35 PM »
yeah the burn back seems to occur when i let to much air into the tube.. but if i dont it doesnt form a proper blue jet in the end of the burner tube and the heat tend to dissipate into the burner tube body instead..

Dont know if i should try a bigger or a smaller nossle.. i have 0.8 tip on it now.
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/

Offline tom osselton

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2013, 02:34:22 AM »
How big is your furnace I'm asking because the pic of your burner sitting on your lid looks like it is about 2.5 / 3" vent hole.
I think you have a backpressure problem,  As you said the burner is a snug fit so the only air getting in is through it so if the lid vent is too small the pressure I think will slow the air flow basicaly making the furnace/burner gasp for air or pulse.  Have you tryed slipping the lid to the side a bit?  I wouldn't  take this for gospel but others can put in their 2 cents or tupence for the other pond people. A furnace with a blower has the air forced into it so the lid hole isn't as critical thats the way I see it at least.

Tom

Offline NeoTech

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Re: NeoTechs newbie melting endevours. ;)
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2013, 03:04:02 AM »
yeah,. the lid hole is about 70mm, so i guess 3" is correct. The lid itself dont sit "flat" onto the furnace so there is openings around it where some eascaping is done.

But i agree i wonder if i should try to conjour 3 attempts.. one is a bigger nossle for the burner effectivl slowing the gas down and the air pull. Second is a burner tube with a lot less venting, instead of 4 slots about 50mm long and 14mm wide i should try with just one slot thats half the length for starters. And finally testing with a airpressure connector hooked up to my compressor maybe. I thought this was more for the oil burner types though.. But as you suggest the natural aspiration could be severly lacking.

Today its pouring though.. *effin weather*  So i will just make parts. ;)
Machinery: Optimum D320x920, Optimum BF20L, Aciera F3. -- I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. http://www.roughedge.se/blogg/