Author Topic: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder  (Read 20863 times)

Offline vtsteam

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A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« on: September 12, 2013, 06:42:01 PM »
(Note: I recently needed to cut left hand acme threads to complete the boring table for my Craftsman 12" lathe. I found an internal threading tool making thread here on Madmodder, but this led to also wanting to make a tap. The inside tool was produced on the lathe, but the outside tool seemed better made on a grinder. What follows was originally part of the boring table thread, but I've split it off into its own topic here.)

I was hunting around online for a simple sharpening jig for regular lathe tools used for outside thread cutting and came across a really excellent one by Martin Cleeve here:

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ThreadingTools.html

Very simple, and so very appealing, to me at least.

Here's my start on it. I found a piece of scrap bracket 3/8" thick and sawed off a piece:

[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:30:09 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2013, 06:44:28 PM »
And was able to use my homemade carbide mill to clean it up:

[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:09:05 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2013, 06:49:46 PM »
And I used it to clean up all three pieces -- mostly bits of scrap. By this evening, the jig was almost finished. Just a few more tapped holes and couple pins are needed for it to be ready for use.

[/URL]



[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:10:15 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 06:18:11 PM »
Little time to work on metal today, but did manage to finish the jig:


[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:10:55 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline chipenter

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2013, 01:48:57 AM »
Been there making tools to make tools and make nothing .

Jeff
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2013, 08:55:29 PM »
It get's worse, Jeff:

I remembered I had a  bench sander that I picked up a while ago at a tag sale. Thinking that this might be something I could use with the new jig to grind tools I dug it out.


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« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:11:30 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2013, 09:00:22 PM »
I knew the belt sander part's table casting was broken. And I already have another belt sander that I use, but I had bought this one for spare parts or another project. A dedicated sharpener seems like a good cause. Here's the broken piece:



[/URL]

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:12:13 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2013, 09:03:46 PM »
I decided I just needed the disk sander part, so I cleaned the motor up, and plugged the sander in -- it worked. I held a little fine sandpaper against the disk to clean it up:


[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:13:00 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2013, 09:35:48 PM »
I had an 80 grit sanding disk -- the adhesive was a little old so I sprayed the back with a little 3M 77, let it dry  some and then stuck it on the aluminum disk. I found the guard, but none of the fasteners for it. Luckily they were SAE sizes and I happened to have 1/2" 10-24's for base screws, and even a couple of 1/4" carriage bolts to fit the square holes for table support pivot bolts. Mine were too long as seen in the photo, but a couple minutes with a hack saw and a file and they were shortened to size:


[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:13:37 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2013, 09:47:21 PM »
Then I mounted the disk sander table, and put a 1/4" lathe bit blank in my new sharpening jig. It turned out that the original socket head cap screws I  had were too short for this size lathe tool, and I didn't have any longer screws of that type on hand, so I used some round head screws temporarily.

I tried out the new tool grinding jig for position. Pretty clear it wasn't going to work as-is. The rectangular mounting plate that the tool holder sits on interfered with the guard and the disk itself. You can just see it against the guard in the photo. Also the whole jig needed to be moved back further.

I'll make a different table tomorrow to fix the problem.

[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:14:10 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline chipenter

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2013, 01:42:25 AM »
Why make a new table make the jig fit the groove .

Jeff
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2013, 04:48:36 AM »
Can the motor rotate in both directions? Would that circumvent making a new table? If the problem is limited movement on x-axis.

Pekka

Offline PeterE

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2013, 05:56:09 AM »
Like Jeff said above, make a new slide that follows the groove. The slide can easily be nearly twice as long as the tabel which will allow for passing over the edges and still be quite stable. Done that you can also add a tool holder that can rotate around a center which will give possibilities for an angular scale of the same type as the Worden tables - see link http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Worden_Mk3_Tool___Cutter_Grinder.html.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2013, 07:33:44 AM »
Thanks guys!  :beer:

I thought about  using the existing table and using a slide, but as Pekka said the problem wasn't just interference , but also the table isn't wide enough to get the tool tip at the periphery of the wheel. The motor isn't reversible I don't think -- at least by me. A slide extension is possible off the table, but I think the action of the wheel will tend to kick it down on the left side, without support.

I could extend the current table, and I think that would work. I might still do that if I don't like my early morning wake up solution, which is to just remove the table and substitute a piece of angle iron bolted to the left side of the guard where the current pivot bolt is located. Very simple. Maybe too simple.... :scratch:

I do think this will allow me to lower the height -- another problem of the Cleve jig I chose to make. The tool tip ends up pretty high. Okay on a larger wheel -- but this one is only 5" -- 125mm. I could abandon the jig if I don't like it -- nothing sacred about it, and the idea of a slide and retaining the old table does still appeal. It's a good one. Well lets just see how the angle iron works out. Not much to it.

Thanks very much for the feedback!  Nice to know a few people are following, and I appreciate all suggestions. :wave:
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Offline mattinker

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2013, 08:07:39 AM »
Following along, maybe a change of title?

Regards, Matthew

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2013, 11:07:21 AM »
The motor isn't reversible I don't think -- at least by me.

Most likely the motor is single phase permanent capacitor run model. Simple addition of single pole changeover switch after power switch should do the trick. Same connection than on "Quorn" TCG book or simple lathe:
http://www.anaheimautomation.com/images/ac/wiring/ACW040%20Wiring%20%28600x344%29.png

But if you don't want to fiddle with electricity, I understand it also pretty well.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 04:57:06 PM »
Thanks Pekka! I'll open up the connection box and check. It would be handy to reverse. No, not afraid to wire it differently.

Thanks again!  :beer:
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2013, 05:49:25 PM »
I made the side table today out of angle itron, and tried it out. It had a few problems -- it was only 2" wide, and the jig really needed a wider table. I clamped another piece to it to widen it, but on top it was too high, and underneath it was too low. I was able to try grinding a tool, but thought I could do better than this setup.

I decided to try to work with the existing table and the slot -- as suggested earlier by chipenter and others. I think this sander originally had a tiny sliding miter gauge, but that wasn't what I really wanted.

After thinking about it for awhile I found two small pieces of steel -- I needed something thin so the fixture wouldn't end up too high. These were 1/8" thick:

[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:15:01 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 05:52:54 PM »
I have a spot welder that I got a couple years ago from Harbor Freight. I don't get to use it very often, but this seemed like an ideal job for it. After cleaning off the two pieces of metal, I welded them together, and milled the narrow strip to fit the slot in the sander's table. It was a little oversize to start with .5" while the slot was .460".


[/URL]
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:15:40 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 05:55:25 PM »
Here's the slide positioned in the slot in the table:


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:16:39 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
I spot welded two more strips of 1/8" x 1/2" to the top side of the slide. These will serve as slide guides for the tool holder, also seen in this photo. I've removed one of the original pieces from  the holder, as it's no longer needed.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:17:18 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 06:03:43 PM »
And here it is in use sharpening an acme threading tool:


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:17:52 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 06:52:41 PM »
Hey this is good. I was just thinking about how i'd grind an acme threading tool a couple days ago.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 09:22:36 PM »
It seems to work well Steve.

The X slide lets me use the whole disk, unlike the original Cleve jig. The Y slide allows me to apply pressure by hand which is a lot more sensitive than a mini leadscrew adjustment (I did consider a fancier version) and has the great advantage that you can pick the small tool holder right up off of the table and dip the tool end in water to cool it while grinding.

The rake of a cut is set by the original pivoting table, and the angle of the tool grind is set in the tool holder and its base/slide.

A paper sanding disk relieves worry about using the side of my regular bench grinder's disk, and I don't have to take shelter from it every time I start it, as normally recommended for a grinder. It will get used frequently as a result.

I'll get some better photographs of the sharpener tomorrow, and the resulting lathe tool -- it was nearly dark when i shot the last two pix.

Of course the slide could have all been milled from the solid -- a 3/8"  (10mm) thick piece of stock would have worked the same. And this could be adapted to just about any disk sander.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2013, 04:21:23 PM »




Here's a test piece of scrap turned with the acme lathe tool sharpened with the new fixture. the threads are pretty good. The tool is a bit too wide at the tip -- so the threads are just a bit narrow at the tip and correspondingly wide at the root, but otherwise I was impressed with the first effort. Just a leetle beet more off the sides of the tool and the tip would be right.

It's difficult to measure the tool tip width without an acme gauge while grinding -- I'll probably end up making something to do a check with.

But very pleased with the first results.  :dremel:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:18:42 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline Arbalist

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2013, 04:35:18 PM »
Nice job, good looking thread!

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2013, 04:37:02 PM »
Today I thought I'd try a new experiment with this tag sale sander. First step was to blue up one of the slide pieces, and mark a line 1-1/2 degrees off square. I decided to do this using a little math since that's a pretty small angle to mark with a protractor.

The piece measured 2.10" long, and I wanted to know how far out to make a mark at one end to yield a 1-1/2 degree angle. I figured the tangent function would do it. With the pocket calculator TAN of 1.5 degrees x 2.1 = .055. So I needed to make a mark .055" in from one end, and then connect it to the other end. This is what it looked like:


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:19:31 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2013, 04:45:31 PM »
Then I started filing to the line. I could have milled it, but I don't have a rotary table, and by the time I set up the mill and got that heavy vise over to 1-1/2 degrees, set the cutter height and did edge finding, etc.....well it was a lot quicker and easier to just file it  to the line. I might have spent 5 minutes total -- and it was nice doing it outside in the sun on this unusually cool day.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:20:26 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2013, 04:53:36 PM »
I bought a barrel of aluminum scrap at an auction once, and there were a lot of one inch square bar cutoffs -- maybe from a screw machine room.  I took one of the aluminum blocks and another strip of 1/8" by 1/2" steel, and positioned them to space the new strip an inch away from the one I just filed, and parallel with it. I clamped the steel strip down with a welder's clamp.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:21:03 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2013, 04:58:04 PM »
Then I removed the spacer block and spot welded the new strip in place:


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:21:53 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 05:03:47 PM »
Then I took three of the aluminum cutoffs and faced, drilled, and reamed 3/8", 1/2" and 3/4" to fit some end mills.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:22:50 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 05:13:12 PM »
Checking out positioning, it turns out that for shorter mills the slide can be on the close side of the sander's table slot:


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:23:32 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2013, 05:22:33 PM »
And for longer mills, I can turn the slide around so it is on the other side of the sander's table slot. The 1-1/2 degree relief angle stays in the same orientation, either way. The blocks can be rotated 90 degrees and replaced in their slide to sharpen each of 2 or 4 flutes.

Tomorrow I will work on a stop, a slide clamp and the adjustment method, and I hope, sharpen an end mill. I have a big box of used mills that someone gave me, so that would be kind of nice!


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:24:10 PM by vtsteam »
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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2013, 05:30:07 PM »
And finally for today, here's what it looks like with the lathe tool sharpening jig in place.


« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:24:48 PM by vtsteam »
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Offline dsquire

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2013, 07:35:26 PM »
Steve

That's pretty good looking. I can see that you are going to have a good supply of sharp bits to choose from. It appears to have worked out well for you without breaking the bank. Thanks for allowing us all to look over your shoulder while you work.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Never let it rest,
'til your good is better,
and your better best

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2013, 10:34:11 PM »
Thank you Don, and also Arbalist -- sorry I missed your post earlier.  :wave:

 :beer:
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Offline borriss

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2013, 11:13:12 PM »
vtsteam
You will have to tilt your table up or use the other side of the wheel in reverse to sharpen those milling cutters
Good idea you have come up with there,
Borriss

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 07:28:14 AM »
Well spotted Boriss. Yes the table tilts, and will be set to the proper angle(s) when it comes time to sharpen a test mill. I just left it at the angle I had used for the lathe tool when I took the photos. There's more to do before I try it out. Thanks for responding!  :beer:
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: A lathe tool grinding fixture
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2018, 11:26:17 PM »
Restored photos after Photobucket links were broken.  :beer:
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Offline SwarfnStuff

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 12:53:53 AM »
Vsteam,
      Thanks for restoring the photo links for this project. 2013 and still relevant. Only problem I have is that it has added to my ever expanding "Things to make" list.
     Supposed to be 41C here tomorrow so no playpen time for this little chappy unless I can sneak out for a bit early morning.
Regards,
John B
Converting good metal into swarf sometimes ending up with something useful. ;-)

Offline awemawson

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2018, 02:49:55 AM »
Excellent Steve. Photobucket has a lot to answer for in wrecking tens of thousands of informative threads across many forums on the web.

I hope that they feel any gain to them outweighs the enormous loss of reputation I sincerely hope they suffer.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2018, 08:28:53 AM »
-16C here today and that will be the high, John, -27C Saturday predicted, so I can tell we're on opposite sides of the world, and neither of us in the shed!  :coffee:

Andrew, will restore all my threads in the evenings gradually. It's kinda fun to revisit old stuff, actually, for me. Gets me back interested in doing things in the shop -- had a lapse in interest for awhile.  :dremel:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
www.sredmond.com

Offline krv3000

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2018, 04:13:49 PM »
a project well dun  :nrocks: :nrocks:

Offline SwarfnStuff

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2018, 11:35:51 PM »
   Well I did manage an hour or so, until the temp in the playpen got to 32C. In the house it was 27 so felt really good when I came in. The thermometer under the lemon tree said 43C a few minutes ago so I'm glad to be inside even if we did finally put the Air-Con on.

     Amazing with all the new technology now, we know stuff all over the globe within an hour of it happening. Unlike when we were lads when the "news" would take days to make it down under.

    I agree it is good to revisit some older posts and some of them seem new - cos I forget em.   :lol:

   So, you stay warm, I'll stay cool as the air-con keeps working.
John B
Converting good metal into swarf sometimes ending up with something useful. ;-)

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2018, 09:13:52 PM »
Thanks Bob, John!  :wave: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
www.sredmond.com

Offline nel2lar

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2018, 08:14:02 PM »
Steve
I must say right on time. I have a nice belt/disc sander and the disc just sits there spinning because I use my pedestal grinder to do my tool grinding. But using the disc I can cut more precise settings much easier. Thanks for the update and show up on my radar. I'll be using your ideas to make it work for me.
Thank you Sir, by the way I like the way you think.
Nelson

Offline vtsteam

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Re: A junkyard lathe and mill tool grinder
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2018, 10:25:47 PM »
You're welcome Nelson, glad it's helpful to you. I never did make an adjustable stop, as intended for mills, but maybe this winter.....
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
www.sredmond.com