How do I start welding?

[awemawson]

When I was taught to gas weld over 30 years ago they always said not to worry about a flashback - it would take hours to become dangerous and the fire brigade would deal with it if necessary...

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg327.pdf

I certainly hope that they are not still dishing out that bad advice 

Andrew

[Arbalist]

When I was taught to gas weld over 30 years ago they always said not to worry about a flashback - it would take hours to become dangerous and the fire brigade would deal with it if necessary...

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg327.pdf

I certainly hope that they are not still dishing out that bad advice 

Andrew

From the linked PDF:

"The porous mass is designed to slow down or stifle any decomposition of the gas. From the start of decomposition to the cylinder exploding should take several hours. This will usually (but not always) provide time for emergency action."

[vtsteam]

Dontcha hate those (not always)'s? 

[awemawson]

Yes I read the link !

The point being it could be a ticking bomb that hours later someone totally unaware that there had been a flash back would pay the price for. It's irresponsible advice.

I'm still trying to square the circle of keeping my cylinders outside and yet usable and secure. Wire cages are all very well but easily broken into and make that odd two minute job a right royal pain

Andrew

[raynerd]

Just to add that I'm still looking into this but I admit, I never really considered such a high setup cost for tig and mig!

What is the real disadvantage with stick arc welding with plate greater than 3mm other than the slag mike mentioned in the first post? Is there really a big difference in the weld?

[awemawson]

Very little downside. Arc welding (aka stick or mma) is the cheapest to get into, and will give you the best penetration with least preparation. For years it's all we had apart from oxy-acetylene. I even arc welded car bodywork in my youth as I has no alternative. It wasn't pretty but was sound 

[PekkaNF]

IMHO stick has more plus sides than negatives. You need a good eye protectition and a good slag hammer (first welding job?) heavy one. Ditch the plastic one if you ever get one. Also a good visor to protect your eyes. Heavy gauntlets. And a apron would be good.

Keep stiks dry, they do not rot or anything, but should be dried before use. I keep welding rods inside and put them wood fired oven on low residua heat few hours if I have anything important to weld. You can weld on wind, but rain is a bit more trouble (but can be done).

You can forget the whole welding business for years, and if you have a TIG/MIG quite often you end up chuckking rods/wire and mig liner/nozlle etc. away and buy new ones....Stick = just go.

Heavy welds, you first do root and then you build up.

PekkaNF

[raynerd]

Thank you - I'm just on eBay and near to me North Manchester, there are loads of arc welder being sold. Most look like cheaper models but do I buy anything in particular - current rating, price. Etc?

[vtsteam]

I have the classic Lincoln "tombstone" buzz box stick welder. And have had for 17 years. That is probably the crudest type of stick welder you can get. Yet I built my sawmill with it, a 10,000 lb capacity 32' boat trailer, and a bazillion other things, as well as maintained my tractor, etc. etc.

If you get something like that, used, and outgrow it, you can probably sell it for what you bought it for and move up. Then again, you might be satisfied enough with it to continue to use it after 17 years.

[Pete49]

Just my 2 bobs worth. I have both stick and mig and the stick is used the most. Its easy to learn either by reading / watching utube then trying on scrap steel until you get a good idea of the way to work and its cheap to get into. I have had an old Arlec welder which is just a small unit and easy to carry (about 12"x 18"x 6" roughly) and runs on a 10A wiring system and has never let me down. As Pekka says keep the sticks dry and they will outlast you  If its been a while just place the sticks  in the oven on low heat for a while and they work like new. The duty cycle is fine for normal handyman type stuff.
Pete

[SwarfnStuff]

For what it's worth Here is my two cents worth (I'm Cheaper than Pete).  I found my stick welding improved out of sight after I shouted myself one of those welding shields that are almost clear till you strike the arc then go instantly dark. This allows me to  see where I am aiming the rod to start. Still not pretty but much less of a mess than previously.

Regards,
John B

[PekkaNF]

Thank you - I'm just on eBay and near to me North Manchester, there are loads of arc welder being sold. Most look like cheaper models but do I buy anything in particular - current rating, price. Etc?

Depend on your budget and how much space you have.

* Forget the cheapest new AC (transfomermer only) units. You are limited to one type of stick (rutile) . Also current range sucks even more than duty cycle. Using them is a pain if you are starting welding. Old hand can use them ok.

* If you have space and good 3-phase feed, industrial old heavy DC unit is a way to go. Some have power unit and some additional "box" for remote control, parameters or wire feed / TIG unit etc. They are big, heavy, last forever and if they break, many people can fix them. You wait a little while and you are bound to find one.

* If you don't have 3-phase or want to cram it into a small space, new inverter is pretty much way to go. Here you pay on duty cycle and quality cables. If you stay away from the cheapest sub 100A units you are fine. They are build for price, therefore no filling them with sand/dust/bumpping/dropping. Electronics is not very friendly for maintenance.

Pekka

* Update#1
Addition of few examples I know (there are bunch of fairly simililar ESAB/bunch of italians)
Telwin TECNICA 151/S - 230 V. About the size and weight of serial box, about 200-300€ range. Does what it says. Low duty cycle, but on that price and when doing hobby work it's a compromise you can live with.  Two of my friends have older version of this same machine and they love it. They stuff all welding equipment (excluding sticks) on one plastic storage box leave it on garage and then bring the box next to work they need it. Short cables, but standard bayonet. Place on elevated surface near you (short cables and this unit does not like rain/water/dust. You may consider buying just the unit (sometimes cheaper) and longer/better cables. If nothing else lget Least longer grounding gable it probably saves you from dropping/dragging  this baby.

Like that:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WELDER-TECNICA-151-S-230V-ACX-PLASTIC-C-CASE-code-816202-TELWIN-/260941784502?pt=Utensili_elettrici&hash=item3cc157a5b6

There are some versions of this that have "Lift TIG" capability and even if you don't need it now, you may want to buy a model if it is only 50€/£ more expensive. They show up sometimes on welding shops a little used. Someone tried TIG, got hooked and wanted to shell dough for a proper HF-unit. But IMHO it is not "the thing" on the list. Unless you really want to try some TIG later on. It's a compromise, but if it does not cost much extra it's worth of considering.

Telwin manuals are pretty crappy. Also their affinity to small controls and short thin cables tells where they save money.

Like this:
http://www.telwin.com/webtelwin/site.nsf/webapridocumento?openform&E|3||816014|81
Pretty decent for the price. These specs are real, not pony HP. One thing we like these is that they are generator friendly = you can use some extension cables, some cheaper units don't respond well on 10 -20 m mains extension cables.

There are some cheaper ones in "supermarkets", but they are always limited on one feature or another. Often with integral 1 metre long useless cables or something. 10% duty cycle on advertized current (eg. 90A or something lowish like that). Some people have bought them, but normally they work just enough that you can't really return them into shop, but they are no joy to use. Pretty much in par with cheapest AC/transformer units, except you can use DC-sticks (Yeaaaa...) and startting is easier.

Then there is a step up when you dig deeper.....here around 500-600€. That money buys a very decent machine that you really can't blame, maintenance works if you need one and you see them used by professionals on maintenance work. Have you anybody ever heard bitching up on Fronius (unless dropped on toes)?

So, eBay may give best last price, but most fitting machine is usually found visitting/calling few welding supply shops. Least here. Try to bundle up longer cables (even much used grounding cable/clamp is great), grounding clamp, good electrode holder, gauntlets or such). My friend got really crappy looking grounding cable/clamp, but it was good 5m long and thick industrial just to seal the deal.

* Update#2
Forgot to say that long rambling above is not Telwin endorsement, but personal view of me and some experience I and some friends have.

I was going to add some more opinions on different brands, but noticed that GYS has changed models too much for any usefull input and ESAB/Kemppi is probably too local here to have any real value to Chris.

o-o

[raynerd]

Thank you very much for the time and effort put into writing your posts. Really interesting and helpful info. After pay day next week I will be ready to buy and let you know what I go for!

[Pete49]

I'll just add a farthings worth to what John B said cheaper still) definitely buy a auto darkening helmet as when learning the hardest bit is trying to strike an arc when you can only go by feel. Regarding AC only just go cheap to start and then when you're ready buy whatever you feel you want. If only doing small jobs around home the costs of Migs and Tigs tend to kill off any savings, especially while learning. If you have a boilermaker or  good welder in your circle of friends ask them to teach you and ask for their advice. I was lucky as my late brother was a boilermaker and gave me the lessons and advice based on experience not a salesmen's versions on which way to start into this part of the hobby. Cheap solid benches are a good start
Anyhoo you have heaps of info in these threads so enjoy your next step.
Pete

[S. Heslop]

Stick welding isn't as hard to pick up as people like to pretend. Of course it's a different story if you're welding oil pipelines or pressure vesels, but for sticking things together in the garage you'd be amazed by how much even the ugliest of welds can hold.

I've said it already but i'll say it again. The only welder I own and have ever really used (I had a go at mig once) is the cheapest nastiest buzz box you can buy, which I got from Aldi. They're selling them right now in fact (check the amperage though, it says it's supplied with a standard plug so maybe they reduced the high end since when they'd sell it plugless). Every year up here they never sell that fast so they tend to get reduced. Don't buy into that adage that you need to buy high end stuff right off the bat since the features of high end tools often aren't required by hobbyists, and don't believe people when they say it's difficult to learn on on a cheap welder (it's easy to learn on any welder).

I'd say its worth buying some decent quality rods though. I bought a box of 3.2mm Murex 6013 rods a while ago and i've still got loads left. I store the rods in an old mini fridge I was given that doesn't work, I figure the seal should keep moisture out. I've also thrown in a bunch of sillica gel packets from shoes and stuff.


It's also worth maybe keeping an eye on ebay for an oxford oil filled welder. As of posting this some micky mouses are trying to get away with charging £400 for the things, but the price they usually sell for is around £30-50. They'll probably come down again when the eejits realise they can't sell them at such optimisitc prices. They're regarded as very robust and stable welders, and i'd like to own one but they never sell them up north.

[Dawai]

Stick welding?  My ac/dc hobart stickmate was the cheapest thing out for a while.  My miller synchrowave tig welder has a stick welding function, does a excellent job.

BUT for dragging it around the smaller 140lb hobart burns rods just fine. I normally keep "dry" 3/32nd rods here, 6011 for normal cold roll steel, 7018 for higher chrome-harder steels. THE 7018s can be a pain to strike for a newbie.

Striking a arc, you have two methods, for the normal rods you can scratch strike to initiate the arc, then pull back to your arc length, or bump strike, with the 7018s after the first burn it has a glass like flux over the ends and you have to hit them pretty hard to shatter that. 

HOT-start option.. is a wonderful thing, like a tig it has a super high voltage to "initiate the arc" you just get near the work and it lights up.. a tiny 120 volt miller welder I used at a nuclear plant for electrical hangers had that, it was the size of a small lunch box, auto-switched power from 120-to 220, seemed to run better on 220. They sent me into "containment" one day, and it was stolen within a hour from the gangbox outside the secure area. I wanted one for here at my home shop, well.. lil things are sometimes like diamonds.. that lil welder was then about $2k.

I also used that Hobart dc welder to derust car parts, like fenders.. with a huge tank of arm and hammer solution as a electrolyte. (very dangerous)   Each welding method has a place in the home shop. FOr sheet metal welds, I prefer the gas torch, for thick and quick welds I prefer the stick welder, for quick thin jobs not requiring ultimate strength the mig, for stainless and aluminum, well the tig rules. THE tig is actually a lot like gas welding with better heat control.

Rock on guys.. I got a big project here that is kicking my butt..

[vtsteam]

You can weld cast iron with a 7018 rod in a stick welder, too. Tried it this summer, and it worked. I was all ready for cracks and total failure, but it didn't happen.

There are more expensive purpose made rods for CI, and gas welding rod, too, plus brazing as methods. But I was really surprised to succeed with the 7018.

Here's a video on how to do that, which I watched before trying it:

[vtsteam]

And the same guy welding CI without pre-heat below. I combined both 7018, and no pre-heat back stepping, and it worked.

[Vernon Tuck]

Hi,

I'm late to the party as I'm a new member and this is my first post.

And quite frankly, I did not read the first sixty-six answers to your question. But no matter. I will re-invent the wheel as necessary.

About twenty years ago, I was asking your very question. An old geezer made this recommendation. I followed it and have no regrets.

Now I AM AN OLD GEEZER. Go figure...

Go ye forth and buy an oxyacetylene rig. Ideally, buy a torch model that has interchangeable tips that can burn propane. It is much cheaper, cleaner, and safer (better said "less dangerous") than acetylene. But it won't burn as hot. I'm told that you cannot weld with it. But you can cut, heat, bend, and braze steel with it. By getting a torch model that will accomodate these tips, and using the proper tip along with acetylene, you can also weld with it. Acetylene will weld steel, iron, and even aluminum if you know how. Acetylene welding built the world from about 1898 until the onset of world war 2, when "shielded metal arc welding" ("SMAW") aka "stick welding" eclipsed it.

Therefore, as your second acquisition, I recommend an old "stick welder". I would far rather have an old, used, industrial quality transformer based welder -- such as the "round top" Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC "stick" welder than a new shiny buzz box. Can you spell "duty cycle"?

If you can afford these two items simultaneously -- marvelous. Those items plus a good quality angle grinder and a few disks, and perhaps an abrasive "chop saw" and you will have what it takes to embark on a very rewarding life pursuit of making stuff. If you can afford only one item buy the gas welding rig. If you can afford only two, buy the gas welding rig and an angle grinder. The MECO MIDGET is a tiny torch with big capabilities but there are many many others.

The two most crucial big ticket items for gas welding are the regulators. They come in "single stage" and "two stage" flavors. I bought some antique Airco two stage regulators on ebay and then paid to have them rebuilt. They are far superior to the modern single stage regulators -- and classy too.

As to those who suggested you buy a MIG welder first, I vehemently disagree, especially those who recommend a low end, low powered, low duty cycle machine. A high end (big $$$) MIG machine would be the last thing on my list. A low end machine would not be on my list at all.

Just sayin'.

VT

[superc]

Hi Raynerd.
I am coming into this late, so I hope I am not too late.  All of the advice is good, well intentioned advice, but it is being presented in a vacuum as you lack hands on.  A decade or two ago I was in almost exactly the same place as you.  I had just bought a small farm on land filled with rocks.  In only a few months I had busted up more outdoor equipment than I had ever dreamed of even touching much less owning in the decades before.  Everything from snapped off mower blades to busted plows and torn sheet metals.  Yes, running to the local farm supply store and just going 'eenie meanie minie mo' and buying something was both an option and a strong temptation. 
Fortunately an older much more experienced individual gave me some good advice first.  His first comment, 'welding, if you don't know what you are doing, is potentially very dangerous.'  And no, he didn't just mean setting yourself on fire.  There are many other things that can go wrong.
His second piece of advise which I also followed was, 'check at the local college or trade schools and see if they offer any welding classes, then take them.'
I took welding classes starting with the basic of oxy acetylene and moving on to mig, tig and plasma.  Several semesters worth. 
One of the most important things you get out of such a class (besides some very good textbooks) is safety techniques.  Watch out for rosebuds, don't coil your cables and lots of other little things that will keep you from looking like a piece of burnt toast.  Another major thing you will get is hands on at the hands of an expert.  (Also some comradery with other students who are as new to all of it as you are.)  It is much better to feel hot steel in your hand in a classroom environment than learning by yourself at home.  Learning temper and heat treatment comes with good classes.  Brazing techniques, other stuff not even hinted at here.  Maintenance of your equipment.  Do you really need to plunk down $30 for a wire nipper or is that old pair of long nose pliers just as good.  Learn the answer while doing on someone else's equipment with an instructor watching over your shoulder.  After the school semester is done then think about what equipment will best suit your needs.  It is also very probable your instructor will have also mentioned by name some specific brands and types of equipment to NOT buy and he (or she) will probably have some good reasons for that advice and a tale or three to back them up.  Yes, I have an oxy rig, but because of what I learned in school (and experimentation done in class) there is no acetylene here.  Mapp (or even propane) is much safer for someone just starting out.  All of them can hit temps suitable for brazing and with a rosebud I can make old iron run into a puddle with Oxy-Mapp only a little bit slower than it will using Oxy-Acetylene.  I have tanks topple over fairly often (sad but true) as we bounce around in the pick up truck trying to get to the busted machinery out there in the back meadow.  I have a small wire rig also and thanks to the school classes a few sticks, a couple of marine batteries and the knowledge of how to do an emergency field repair to hold something together long enough for me to have someone with one of those really big stick rigs visit me and use his rig on the really thick metal.