Author Topic: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA  (Read 10727 times)

Offline PTsideshow

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2570
  • Country: us
Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« on: December 01, 2013, 10:35:40 PM »
Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
Well all the lead will have to come from China now!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 10:49:15 PM by Brass_Machine »
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline tom osselton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1256
  • Country: ca
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 02:54:49 PM »
It was said best in " Blazing saddles " " Gentlemen we have to protect our phoney baloney jobs"

Offline Dan Rowe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: us
  • Dripping Springs TX
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »

" Gentlemen we have to protect our phoney baloney jobs"

Harrumph
Shayloco Dan

Offline ieezitin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 07:23:30 PM »
Nice catch and thanks for posting it so people who dont understand have a chance to digest whats going on.

Subtleties like this go un noticed because its not directly effecting the common mass, but in this example the commodity metal lead is used everywhere not only ammo, but Nuclear power, health care, automotive, aviation, manufacturing, education and military.

Shame we are powerless to stop it. The whole world is..

Anthony….
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline PTsideshow

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2570
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 06:16:34 AM »
Since solder is lead based, In time it will effect everything and every one. Car batteries is another since most are now made off shore will be another item that may go up in large chunks.
Even fishing sinkers and wheel weights are no longer made from lead. Tungsten for the sinkers.
But the biggest thing that could happen is that China cuts off the flow of lead in the future. Canada at this point still is refining ore and is a trading partner.
I'm sure they have been working on replacement materials, plastic's, ceramics for bullets. But the elected government in DC seems to been the biggest provider of unemployment now! :palm:
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 06:57:00 AM »
Lead based Solder is being phased out!

Regards, Matthew

Offline awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8967
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 07:12:24 AM »
Interestingly lead based solder is being retained for use in 'high criticality' things - satellites, air frames etc due to the fatigue cracking of the tin based solders.

Andrew

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline unc1esteve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 09:56:17 AM »
These do-gooders have already cost us untold dollars and labor.
Do a little research on 'cat whiskers'.  Damaged and lost
equipment because of the restrictions on lead solder.

I agree that we can no longer do anything about it.
We are responsible.  We gave away all of our rights long ago,
in exchange for what?
Who elects the idiots in the elected government?
Who allows government by regulation instead of legislation
as the Constitution calls for?

I can not find 'silica sand' for casting in my area because of silicosis.

The whole world does not behave as we do.
Are you aware that there is a treaty that will allow
foreign troops on American soil in time of crisis if
called for by the President?

This is not the forum for my discussion.

Offline Pete W.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 852
  • Country: gb
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 11:22:45 AM »
Interestingly lead based solder is being retained for use in 'high criticality' things - satellites, air frames etc due to the fatigue cracking of the tin based solders.

Andrew

As an acquaintance of mine put it, 'If lead-free solder were any good, the Romans would have used it!'
Best regards,

Pete W.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you haven't seen the latest design change-note!

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 01:20:30 PM »
If the Romans had known that they were killing themselves drinking from lead goblets, they'd have stopped doing it!


Regards, Matthew

Offline Pete W.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 852
  • Country: gb
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 03:41:17 PM »
If the Romans had known that they were killing themselves drinking from lead goblets, they'd have stopped doing it!


Regards, Matthew

Matthew,

With respect, I think the wine thing is a distinctly separate issue.  Actually, I understood it was the Roman wine producers warming the wine in leaden dishes to remove the sharp acidic taste.  I'd never heard of it being a consumer thing with leaden goblets.

We've learned since that it's far better to allow the wine time for the fruit acids to react with some of the alcohol to produce the family of chemical compounds called 'esters', the ones that give the pleasant tastes and aromas.

But I guess it's not a new thing for unscrupulous wine producers to take short cuts to get their wine to the market sooner!

I lived for a few years on an estate of houses that all had/have lead cold water service pipes.  I was told by a professional chemist working for one of the water supply companies that if the water properties happen to be right, an impervious patina forms on the interior of the lead pipe, isolating the lead from the water.  (He reckoned, to be sure, it was a good precaution to flush the toilet first thing each morning to get rid of the water that had stood in the pipe all night - after that, the water wasn't resident in the pipe for long enough to absorb any lead.)

The trick is, does the water have the right chemistry for that to happen - in some areas it does and in others it doesn't, a bit of a lottery perhaps!  Even MDPE gets the occasional scare story!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 11:47:38 AM by Pete W. »
Best regards,

Pete W.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you haven't seen the latest design change-note!

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 04:14:59 PM »
Pete,

point taken about warming wine in lead trays, but it was still killing them!

I lived in Wales where we had lead water pipes, at the time, nobody worried about it, but now, from what I can gather, are now considered to be health risk. It is a very slow accumulative poison, so the effects take tme to show.

Regards, Matthewi

Offline Bluechip

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
  • Country: england
  • Derbyshire UK
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 05:16:29 PM »
Entirely reasonable about warming wine in lead vessels.
 
Wine contains acetic acid, I would guess there would be a reaction of sorts producing lead acetate.
 
AKA 'Sugar of Lead'  'cos it tastes sweet.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate
 
Not a problem for me. Never drink wine, can't stand the vile stuff ...
 
 
Dave
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline 75Plus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 624
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 08:32:48 PM »
With all the items that politicians have restricted and outright outlawed they have not SAVED one life.

Think about it!!

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 09:17:18 PM »
A lot of lives have been saved with the banning of lead based paint.

Regards, Matthew

Offline Mike K

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 10:37:14 PM »
A lot of lives have been saved with the banning of lead based paint.

Regards, Matthew

Facts and reason have no place in a conspiracy.

Offline Fergus OMore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Country: england
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 03:31:20 AM »
Musing a little, it is time that the odd telephone call is made to see how our old contacts are have fared and are faring. I spoke to my old engine fitter last night. He's nudging 84 now like me and we go back to those days when he had just survived the London Blitz, the rationing and - drinking somebody else's urine that was pumped from the River Thames in lead pipes and when we first met, he was cleaning the oil out of his dirty uniform with tetra ethyl lead in 100 octane Spitfire fuel.

Apart from a whoopsie with a drunken pilot leaving the 'gate' open on a Spit as he fired the Coffman starter- and blew his ear drums out, he is fine.

I suppose that I can say much the same. We are still driving fast cars, we are still messing about in our workshops at times and generally putting the World right- or think we are.

Lead poisoning?  Really, who wants to live to 124 which was what my doctor threatened me with?

Regards

Norman


Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 10:52:23 AM »
You may or may not accept that lead poisoning is real and has an effect on the human body, I for one try to avoid anything i know to be poisonous. I would prefer to die painlessly in my bed than by slow poisoning that might not actually kill me, but make things painful and difficult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

Regards, Matthew

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 12:43:16 PM »
There are several issues embodied in this problem.

Firstly, we need materials that have downside effects that can (and should) be minimized.  Lead serves a number of important and useful purposes upon which we depend.  Proper controls mitigate those downside effects.  The one that causes me to laugh up my sleeve is asbestos.  The replacement materials for it have the same problems (short, sharp, and brittle fibers that pass around the environment and get lodged in places where they cause amazing damage).  The primary difference is that we have regulations for processing, handing, and disposing of them that could be as easily applied to asbestos.

Second, we (i.e. Americans) have a government that has signed treaties that have resulted in our losing primary technologies to China and other countries.  Few people today remember that, in the mid-/late-1970's, the American taxpayer footed the bill to rebuild and improve our major smelters -- and then, in the early-/mid-1980's, tore them down, packed them up, and shipped them overseas (to Korea and Taiwan mostly and initially) all at taxpayer expense.  This was the period where US Steel reformulated itself into USX.  The interpretation of the (Nixon era) treaties is getting more involved in our primary industrial base than most people realize.

In January of 2004, we (America) shut down the last high-strength bolt (screw) production line and shipped it to China.  Our "business press" pontificated on how it was the cost of labor that drove this decision.  As one of the machinist/technicians who built those machines (under a NASA/USAF funded program), I was somewhat amused by this statement.  The machines we shipped out in 2004 were entirely automated -- bar stock is fed in at one end (using Automatic Guided Vehicles) and inspected, counted, and bagged screws come out the other end at a rate of 1.2 million/shift/week (for 1/4-20 X 1 inch long)!  The only labor involved is changing out the thread rollers (call it 15 minutes of work performed twice a shift).  In December of 2003 I purchased 3000 1/4-20 X 1 NAS qualified socket head cap screws for $6.15/100.  In April of 2004 it cost me $8.40/100 -- and I had a 92% failure rate at acceptance testing (something that had never been higher than 2% previously) -- which is why I insist on purchasing only Mexican, Indian, or Brazilian made high-strength screws today!

Offline mattinker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Country: fr
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 03:37:28 PM »
I absolutely agree with you, it's just that using materials safely is the key factor, lead based paints were replaced, probably by paints that give other problems. The hatmakers all suffered from saturnism, the printing industry had the same problems. The next things are going to be formalin glues, I've developed a hypersensitivity, to MDF and polyurethane. I have had a real problem with my home/workshop which I have just about cleared of so called safe products that I react to. I have melted lead zinc and Al for years, I've always been as careful as possible, I'm not going to stop, but it's getting hard to be safe!

Regards, Matthew

Offline oldgoaly

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 03:29:35 AM »
Funny the worlds biggest lead mine/smelting operation in the US is closing, they have a sister plant in Chile, the workers make 2-10 cents on the dollar and have no medical or any other benefits.  It is going stronger as "the corporation" has sunk money into it rather than keeping the US facility in good operating conditions. corporate greed 

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
  • Country: us
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 12:52:40 PM »
Correction:  In January of 2004, we (America) shut down the last high-strength bolt (screw) production line and shipped it to China.

That statement should have included the qualifier, high volume production line.  We still make high-strength bolts (screws), but they are made in limited quantities.  If you need quantities 1-250, there is no problem (other than the price), but if you need 1000+ on a regular basis, you are forced to foreign suppliers.

Offline PekkaNF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2523
  • Country: fi
Re: Last US lead smelter shut down by the EPA
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 02:28:17 PM »
There are several issues embodied in this problem.

......  Our "business press" pontificated on how it was the cost of labor that drove this decision.  ...

This seems to be a big problem everywhere. Specially in Europe, every company has jumped into China bandwagon, and first it looked that it was not cost effective (well it was touted cheap labor unit cost, but total cost never went down well ) but real reason was right to use old technology and polute at hearts contents.

Moreover to my knowledge only one western company reached same quality with same unit cost - Bosch Rexroth on certain product in china despite of the cheap labor unit cost.

But now it's complete mystery to me why companies are so eager to ship manufacturing into china. Do they get some undocumented benefits or what is it?

One dead sure reason is very creative tax planning and there too big companies go to extremes to avoid paying taxes to their home lands....like if the big idea is to portray patriotic values, but deny your home country from tax revenue. Clear as mud?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/connieguglielmo/2013/08/01/apple-google-among-top-u-s-companies-parking-cash-offshore-to-reduce-taxes-study-says/

I can only agree on bolts...our supplier told us to go hi tensile bolts if we want bolts that conform standards. How moronic is that? Some designs go well with standard bolts and if the manufacturer stamps bolt 8.8 it means that the material MUST be up to that standard or someone has forged material certificate. Why no-one gets sued of that? Now all bolts are torqued and quite a few fails. And now companies accept that. Unbelievable.

Pekka