Author Topic: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..  (Read 18426 times)

Offline ieezitin

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Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« on: December 16, 2013, 06:42:02 PM »
Guys.

I have a lead on a 4 cylinder Perkins diesel motor that come out of a sail boat, i am trying to build a generator for the farm and i want a diesel motor drive. does anyone know the history or reputation on a Perkins 4 cylinder Model 4107or 4108 motor.

Thanks in advance..

Anthony..... :)
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 06:48:02 PM »
These engines were what easystart was invented for   :D
John Stevenson

Offline Fred Bloggs

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 04:27:38 AM »
I agree with John S. on the easystart, I had one of these engines (4108) fitted (factory) into a 69 Ford Transit Van. It ran well but was a barstoll to start, I put a heavy duty battery on it and uprated the cables from the battery to the starter to 65mm CSA welding cable and put 2 or 3 extra earths using the same welding cable onto the chassis and fitted and extra glow plug starter into the air intake to so she would swing over fast enough in winter (UK only) to start. Sometimes on really cold morning I would have to take off the air filter (oil bath type) and stuff a piece of lighted news paper into the inlet manifold and quickly spin her over to get her to start.
The other major gripe is that they only have a 3000 mile service interval as the oil gets a lot of carbon etc in it.

Otherwise a good engine, my van had done about 400,000 miles when it was stolen in 1992 from a carpark in Cannock, the police said the engine was probably in a canal boat within 24hours :bang:

It also was very good on the fuel, at a steady 40  to 50  miles an hour she was doing 35-40 mpg.

Best regards

Fred

Offline ieezitin

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 06:53:10 AM »
Ummm……. At the moment its sounds a little disappointing having to shove a copy of the Financial Times and catch it a blaze in the air flow just to get it started.  :bugeye:

I wonder if this unit I am interested in comes with a box of matches.  :coffee:

Anthony....
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 11:17:03 PM »
What other use would an engineer have for the Financial Times except propagating combustion or emergency toilet paper  :lol:

The earlier Perkins engine numbers indicate the number of cylinders and cubic capacity in inches so a 4.108 = 4 cylinder 108 cu inch engine.

Despite the similarity of type numbers 4.107 and 4.108 were very different designs.
The 4.107 used wet sleeves or liners in a skeleton type  cylinder block,whereas the 4.108 employed a more conventional one piece cast jacketed cylinder block.

Both these engines were of the high speed indirect injection design and it was this that made them a difficult sod to start in cold conditions and sometimes even warm conditions.

Also as a previous post has said they required frequent oil and filter changes or engine service life became greatly reduced.

The far more desirable and reliable workhorses in the Perkins stable were the direct injection engines
 such as the 3.152, 4.236, 4.248, and the 6.354 all of which were fitted to various Massey Ferguson tractors, combine harvesters and many other manufacturers industrial vehicles and plant and offered as normally aspirated or turbo charged depending on output requirement.

The bottom line is if I were looking to source an engine for a small generator plant I wouldn't bother with a 4.107 or 4.108.

If a serviceable 3.152 or 4.236 was available I'd be tempted but these days there are plenty of super reliable car diesel engine units available from the breakers yard such as the Peugeot 1.9 or 2.0 litre units,which incidentally, Perkins have had a role in at the consultancy and design stages.
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 12:28:33 PM »
I have two of these engines (in various states of disrepair) and can agree with the starting problems. There is a way around this.  They are (were) used in refrigeration units for trucks.  These units used a different cylinder head,  one with the normal glow plug set up.
Way back in history there was an article in Practical Mechanics magazine that outlined an American car that got 100 mpg from one of these engines. It wasn't quite stock as it had a turbo fitted and I believe the camshaft was from a speed boat version. I.e.  optomised to run at a constant speed and be on the best part of the power curve all the time.

I contacted Perkins about this engine and they said it was better not to fit the glow-plug head for a road use vehicle but to get the original Ki-gas system working properly. They also said that fitting a turbo would reduce engine life.

The beauty of this engine is that it is quite low,  even though it is a long stroke engine. Hence it is good for fitting in a car.

Another popular Perkins engine was the 3.144. Three cylinder two litre. Another barsteward to start on a cold morning,  but really economical once it was running.

Dave.

P.s.  Do Not use easystart.  They become addicted to the stuff and eventually won't start without it.

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2014, 08:31:22 PM »
David,
Your dead right about not using easy start on a regular basis,I've seen a few indirect injection cylinder heads where the Ricardo comet type pre chamber inserts were severely damaged with pieces broken out as a result of using ether based easy start to much and to frequently.
Far better,as you say to fit a pre combustive type heater in the intake manifold such as the Ki-Gas unit....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline John Hill

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 04:18:56 AM »
There is a possible way of getting around the starting problem by converting to 24V start.  Now before anyone says the starter motor will burn out immediately, which it might, I must point out that a motor grinding away on a failing 12V battery is going to get much hotter than the same motor spinning over for a 3 second start.

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Offline DavidA

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 05:10:43 AM »
 Temporarily connecting another 12 Volt battery in series was a favorite way of getting the 4.108 engines in our little Bristol bulldozers to start. they never had a started burn out. But it wasn't really such a good thing to do. These machines had dynamos fitted to recharge the battery, not alternators as they would these days. I suspect that the necessary disconnection of the battery with the engine running would damage the diodes in the alternator.  Dynamos were much tougher.

The problem with the aerostart is that it can crack the top piston rings as well as the pre-combustion chambers.

Did you buy it ?

Dave.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 08:31:26 AM »
A "Thermostart" in the inlet manifold is relatively easy to fit - works a dream on my Ford 4000 tractor. Comprises a diesel valve that is normal closed connected to a small tank fitted in line with the return diesel line to the main tank. Round this valve inside the inlet manifold is a coil of nichrome wire. When you press the button, the nichrome starts to glow, warms the valve which allows a small quantity of diesel through, which busts into flames and warms the air in the inlet manifold.

http://www.parts4engines.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=557
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline John Hill

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2014, 03:13:49 AM »
Some tractors used two 12v batteries for 24V starting and 12v lighting etc.

The batteries were connected in series of course with the centre point grounded so some of the lights etc were negative earth and some positive earth.  A single 12V alternator was used but without a full diode bridge so that each battery was charged by half wave rectified power.  The starter had to be modified to isolate  the ground end of the coils which was connected instead to the negative battery terminals.
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2014, 03:26:51 AM »

If a serviceable 3.152 or 4.236 was available I'd be tempted but these days there are plenty of super reliable car diesel engine units available from the breakers yard such as the Peugeot 1.9 or 2.0 litre units,which incidentally, Perkins have had a role in at the consultancy and design stages.

So Peugeot listened to what Perkins had to say, then ignored them and went on to build a reliable engine that starts ?  :lol:
John Stevenson

Offline John Hill

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 03:38:44 AM »
Further to the 24V starting,  if you dont need 12v for anything you can just add the extra battery and change the regulator.
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Offline Noitoen

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 03:25:34 PM »
Old topic but a valid solution for common problem. For those hard to start 12v starter diesel engines, there is a relatively simple solution. Without changing the electrics, a second battery and a series/parallel relay will do the trick. http://www.genr8.net.au/uploads/file/47.pdf The batteries are momentarily connected in series just for the starter motor that will handle the extra power without problems. After starting, they get connected back in parallel to receive 12v charge.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 03:40:40 PM »
I've got to figure out something for a starter for this baby.

Hand cranking two 24" CI flywheels after applying a torch to the intake manifold in winter gets old fast.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 04:54:05 PM »
You could rig up a kickstart.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 08:34:00 PM »
Nope, you need to get the revs up before pulling the valve block on this diesel, and with winter thick oil forget it.

I want a starter motor.  :drool:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline mattinker

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 09:43:58 PM »
Some motorcycle starter motors use a ratchet system like a bicycle free wheel. Maybe there is something allong those lines you could use.

Regards Matthew.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 11:11:16 PM »
You'd need a full bicycle with gears you could shift up the gears from low low to about 60 engine rpm under compression release, then some means of  engaging the fuel rack, then pulling the compression release, then somehow totally disengaging mechanically. You'd then have to start the whole procedure again if it didn't kick over, because it WILL come to a dead stop in 2 revolutions after compression. If not 1.

Or.....pressing a button until it starts.

Hmmmm, lemme think about this......  :scratch:

Uh, I think I want Plan B.

I know it's hard to tell without trying it and being here, but for reference  It's 700 pounds has a 6 inch bore (I think) and I'm pretty sure that with the compression not released I could stand on the hand crank and not budge it past TDC. I've been living with this brute for 5 years (the photo was when it was new). We're both 5 years older, and know each other's bad habits well.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline mattinker

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 11:24:45 PM »
You'd need a full bicycle with gears you could go up to about 60 rpm under compression release, then some means of  engaging the fuel rack, then pulling the compression release, then somehow totally disengaging mechanically. You'd then have to start the whole procedure again if it didn't kick over.

Or.....pressing a button until it starts.

Hmmmm, lemme think about this......  :scratch:

Uh, I think I want Plan B.

I know it's hard to tell without trying it and being here, but for reference  It's 700 pounds has a 6 inch bore (I think) and I'm pretty sure that with the compression not released I could stand on the hand crank and not budge it past TDC. I've been living with this brute for 5 years (the photo was when it was new). We're both 5 years older, and know each other's bad habits well.

I don't think I made myself clear. The motorcycle starter on my K100 BMW uses a ratchet system so that the starter is never disengaged. You have a decompresser, spin the engine up to speed with the starter motor, you drop the decompression lever, engine starts, you stop the starter, the starter drive idles without disengaging. Probably, the easiest way to couple the starter to the crank would be a chain. It's an idea!

Regards, Matthew

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 11:46:57 PM »
Matt you got to try this thing. Any chance of visiting? Be happy to put you up -- and the engine is as good an excuse as any for a good visit!

Now imagine your BMW with a 6 inch piston, diesel level of compression, and 250 pounds of 24" flywheels attached. Maybe more than 300 pounds of moving mass with the crankshaft con rod and piston. And on a very long stroke.

The ratchet isn't the problem. The muscles are.

The hand crank is ratcheted, btw. But you pull it off the shaft (about 2" dia. as I remember it) when it kicks, because well it would spin around anyway, and besides, these ratchets aren't fool proof. I know it could be done better, as on your motorcycle, but, again, it's heartbreaking to do more than three start attempts in a row. Like real heartbreaking.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline mattinker

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 01:59:02 PM »
I'd love to visit, might just stop in between Montreal and Cutty Hunk if I make it across the Atlantic in Jan/Feb. I was thinking along the lines of a starter motor driving through a ratchet. I thought the engine had a decompresser, nothing wrong with a starter motor to spin up to speed dropping the decompresser when fast enough to start.

It was a hopefully helpful beginning thought rather than a  packaged al thought out solution!

regards, Matthew

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2014, 02:09:18 PM »
Oh okay, yes a starter motor! That's what I want to do!
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2014, 05:45:22 PM »
Hi vtsteam,
How about finding a ring gear from something like a truck the correct diamater to fit to the flywheel ?
I have a friend who made a ring gear by cutting and reshaping to the correct diamater then welding the joints  :scratch:
Alternatively, cutting teeth into the flywheel rim if facilities are available to do so
A decently sized starter motor should spin the engine , maybe adding a solenoid to operate the decompressor for a few seconds while sthe starter is spinning the engine up to speed could be added ?

Regards
John

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2014, 08:15:52 PM »
I'm sure that would work vintage. But probably I'll go with a friction drive and a simple lever to press it against the flywheel and withdraw it when it starts. Kind of like Simon's bicycle drive.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline RussellT

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2014, 05:48:30 AM »
You don't have a belt drive take off on that vintage tractor do you - or any other vehicles with suitably exposed wheels to get a friction drive from a tyre.

Russell
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2014, 09:31:04 AM »
No I don't Russell. But I do have a sixties era Ford starter motor with the very long shaft. And I might have a rubber boat trailer roller somewhere. Or I could buy one. I was thinking of combining the two. Unlike Simon's bike this would bear against the wide flat outside of the rim, rather than the rim side.

The rim that drives the generator has a 1" section with small grooves in it, as the drive is poly-V belt (automotive type), but the grooves are so small and centered in the wide rim face that I don't think it would bother a wide rubber roller drive.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2014, 01:41:30 PM »
Hi Steve, I thought this link to sprag clutch bearings might give you some ideas for a unit that locks in one direction and freewheels in the opposite. These units are available with a key way on the internal and external diameters......OZ.

Link: http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Bearings-Sprag+Clutch+Bearings/c3_4585/index.html
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline awemawson

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2014, 04:19:53 PM »
Any mileage in running the generator as a motor starter like the Start-O-Matic Listers?
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Perkins 4 Cylinder diesel model no 4107 or 4108..
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2014, 08:25:04 PM »
Thanks Oz, Andrew.

I actually already have a starter motor destined for this -- a 60's era (I think) Ford. These had a long shaft, Ideal for the rubber roller against the outer rim. I might even have a rubber boat trailer roller in the shed that would work with it. And I have a spare solenoid. All I need to do is set up a lever to apply the pressure to the rim of the flywheel. And a starter switch. Well, maybe also an outboard support bearing and arm -- not sure. And the time to do it!

Andrew, I've heard of someone else doing the starter/generator thing. But I already have a 5 kW 240/120V gen head belted to the diesel. And the starter motor probably doesn't have the bearings or cooling for continuous use.

Here's my starter:

« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 08:51:48 PM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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