Author Topic: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness  (Read 36688 times)

Offline superc

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Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« on: February 10, 2014, 04:48:21 PM »
I really do like Sieg SX2 (MicroMark labeled), but when it cuts into hardened plate steel, be it chilled aluminum or hardened steel the light weight and associated lack of rigidity shows itself as vibration.

Brass, high density plastics and aluminum cut and mill with no problem.  What I saw when milling hard steel however was incredible vibration (and there is a lot of banging noise). There was a lot of what I will call slop in some of the threaded assemblies.  It revealed itself as the handles unscrewed from the quillon and tinkled onto the floor, the safety cap and the (silly) plastic column cover bounce off and drop to the floor. The first time mine bit into hardened steel plate (upgrading some parts in my truck) all of the mill's handles vibrated off and the table itself moved an inch. LoL. So much for all that effort to ensure the table was level in that spot.  Worse on several occasions the head would drop or the column would suddenly topple sideways.

After the first time that happened I froze the support handles on the spindle shaft pinion with Loctite, and used a breaker bar to tighten the column pivot nut.  The next time the handles did not come off the spindle shaft pinion anymore, but the safety cap over the draw bar flew off and so too did the little dust cover on the end of the support column and the only thing using the breaker bar had accomplished was reduce the sudden tilting of the column from 40 degrees to 3 or 5 which was still more than enough to mess up any work being done.

Checking online revealed 100s of web pages with similar complaints from other Sieg X2 and SX2 owners. The first suggestion was a complete take down to the level of the smallest pin or nut, followed by careful lapping of all parts and the use of Locktite when only one or two thread fits were less than perfect.

I found about 50 different designs on the web of support column reinforcement designs and picked one that wasn't too complex (upside down T shape), and of course many pages about filling the column with epoxy or sand.

This is another guy's approach on it from another website.



There would be issues to drilling and tapping the holes of course, not the least of which was the exact placements needed.  Further searching on the Internet disclosed someone else had already invented the wheel and a machinists drawing of an X2 column was already out there.



I did the mill take down, clean smooth and re-tighten.  Next was the epoxy.

Filling the column with epoxy means finding a way of plugging the bolt hole (15/16ths of an inch in diameter) in a fashion that leaves the hole capable of putting the bolt back in when the epoxy has cured. Most X2 owners wrote they used PVC pipe. Of course no one makes (in the US anyway) PVC pipe of exactly 15/16 inch (0.9375 inch). My solution was to get some 1 inch PVC pipe and turn it down on my lathe to exactly .94 inches.



Lots of swarf strings.

This enabled a snug fit that more or less blocked any epoxy (as shown, even though a snug fit, there was some leakage) while still protecting the bolt hole.



Epoxy does not normally stick to PVC pipe, so the pipe would be easily removed when the epoxy dried and the hole was protected.



I did the layout & cut a 1/4 inch hot rolled plate to a T shape of approriate size with my bandsaw. 





I did a fair amount reading about sand fills, epoxied columns and support bases, et al.  Epoxy and gravel, epoxy concrete, epoxy and granite, all that.  Vibration dampening properties of sand, cross sectional density, etc., yada, yada, yada.  A couple of decades ago someone sold me 20 pounds of sheet metal screws, small nuts & bolts and tiny steel washers.  One box, all mixed.  I think I had used maybe 5 of them in the 20 years I had them.  I own a sand blaster so I already had sand.  I decided to fill the voids in the column with a mix of steel bolts, sand and epoxy. Also just for a lark I took some spare 6 inch bolts and added more threading to them so as to give the epoxy more to grip and threw them in there too.



Some minor issues related to working with epoxy arouse, they are discussed later.

When I was done and the epoxy was cured I remounted the column in a normal fashion and trammed it.  The only remaining steps I planned to take were the drilling of holes and tapping them.  The area where the holes are drilled into the mill's base is not really that thick.  I normally like thicker (more room to play if a mistake is made) stock before drilling and tapping a 3/8 inch hole.  Besides I wanted to know what the effect of the epoxy fill was.  So I tried the epoxy filled column out.  Night vs. day was the observation here.

Before when I milled steel everything would vibrate.  The table the mill was mounted on would dance on the floor.  At all speeds there was noticeable chatter with a 5/8 endmill trying to go 0.1 inches deep through steel.  My handles would unscrew from the spindle shaft pinion and drop to the floor, the milling head lock would unscrew and the head would drop suddenly without warning, or the column nut would back off the bolt and the whole mill column would suddenly topple sideways as the table danced around on the floor..

After reinstalling the epoxied column and tramming it, I took the 1/4 inch hotrolled steel plate I had cut to a T shape on my bandsaw, fixed up my 3 inch Flycutter and easily took all of the blue layout die off.  I then doubled the RPM speed and did it again.  Only a faint burr sound added.  The only problem I noted was some Y axis back and forth movement of the table, but once I secured the table with the gib lock that stopped.  I next took two pieces of scrap plate, bolted them side by side (Z axis orientation) into a vice and it happily went right through them on a 1/8 inch cut with the same 5/8 endmill that couldn't do 1/10 inch without a problem before.  The column didn't tilt and the head didn't drop and nothing unscrewed.  My conclusion is I am holding off on any drilling and tapping holes into my mill base or the column.  I can always do that if I have to, but for right now all by itself, the epoxy fix works.

Epoxy observations.  Coat the column outside with release agent.  The PVC type hole plugger will probably require you to turn down a piece of PVC in your lathe.  I was totally unable to find a piece of OD 15/16 PVC pipe in any store in my part of the US.  Good thing I had a lathe.  Even though it was a perfect and snug fit, epoxy leaked around the edges and ran onto the outside of the column.  Which is why I mention release agent.  Others have said close off the opening at the bottom with duct tape.  LoL, what a mess that was.   Duct tape is porous, it leaked right on through, not much, but way more than I wanted to see puddling on my clean basement floor.  Duct tape, if allowed to get wet with epoxy must be picked off the epoxy one thread at a time. 



I visited a craft store afterwards.  My STRONG suggestion for the next guy is over where they carry the epoxy jewelery mold stuff, they also carry a special clay for making molds for epoxy.  Get some.  Plug the opening with that, then use the duct tape to hold the easily peeled off silicone clay in place.  Someone had sold me several pounds of sheet metal screws and very small nuts and bolts at a flea market decades ago.  I finally found a use for them.  50/50 mix of playground sand and sheet metal screws, et al, then 50% epoxy.  Stir it in a disposable bowl and pour.  Marine epoxy was cheapest, but I had to buy a gallon can of it (Ebay).  Later at the crafts store I found something called casting epoxy and it is available in 1 pint or 1 cup containers.  If I were doing it all again, I would use the casting epoxy and not have 3 quarts of unused epoxy in a can.  Important.  Give very serious consideration to removing the support spindle shaft before doing your pour.  I was lazy.  I left mine in (left the head attached too) and with a long artists brush very carefully (so as to not get any on the column walls) coated the shaft with epoxy release agent before sealing the column bottom and making my pour.  Then I sweated for a day hoping nothing would bind.  I got away with that, but I don't recommend it.  For myself I did multiple pours of small amounts.  I would mix and pour then heat the column with a heat gun to about 110 F, according to my temp reader, then tap the column until the air bubbles came off the screws and nuts, then as the column cooled mix the next batch and do the next pour and repeat the process.



I filled my column up to just about 1 1/2 inches from the cross bar (pinion shaft).  I already had sand for sand blasting and a 20 pound box of assorted small metal fasteners, so my total cost was 5 of release agent and about 30 for the epoxy.  Result, a much more serious mill IMO, and like I wrote, adding the bolted on plate for column support remains a second option but only if needed.

By the way, while waiting for the epoxy to cure an inclinometer I had previously ordered arrived in the mail.  Out of curiosity while tramming i brought it into play.  You can imagine my amusement to learn that the people who added the protractor to the column mount did not check the placement of the protractor scale.  Loosely summed up, the two differ by a full degree.

Inclinometer on the mill's spindle says



But the built on protractor scale says,





Offline John Stevenson

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Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 05:18:35 PM »
I looked at those on LMS.  I do like having the option of tilting the mill head even if I never do so.  So with both the epoxy fill, and or the T backplate I would keep the option your method would take away.  In the case of the T shape backplate simply removing the bolts on top would again allow the tilt if someday I had a job that needed that option.

BTW, regarding the angle of the spindle and the contradicting indicators one of the thoughts I considered was maybe the spindle head is canted on the column and that is why the column gave one reading but the built on scale gave another?

So I put the meter on the column top and from that experiment which produced identical results to the reading on the spindle I now know either the scale placement in the factory was a degree off or the column is curved, but my T square edge shows no evidence of that either.  Recall!     LoL  Nah, I don't care as long as I know about that.


Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 09:53:37 AM »
Alternatively fit one of these.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machine-Spares/Super-X2-Mill-Spares

I actually have one of those tucked away. As soon as it gets a bit warmer, I am going to tackle it.

As it was, I was going to do something similar to what you did, I even have a spare column here. I was thinking about filling the column too with the solid mount, But I think I am not going to. I will be putting the airspring in there...
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline teegee

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 11:04:09 PM »
I bought my SX2 with the fixed column option (from Sieg factory, via local company here in Singapore). When taking heavy-ish cuts, it still is very loud. It sounds like it's vibration coming from the electronics box, but I'm not sure. I've been thinking about filling the column with epoxy and gravel too, though I have absolutely no idea if it will help any..

The other thing that is very annoying is the head drop issue, which I need to look at too.

Offline rythmnbls

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2014, 02:45:48 PM »
My mill column came attached to the side of my lathe, a Grizzly g0516, needless to say it did not belong there - so I bought an X-Y table from LMS, and, like most X2 mills it banged and thumped when making cuts in steel.

Here's a pic of my solution...



The new column is 4"x6" steel with a wall thickness of 3/8"  and the base pieces are 2" x 3" by 3/8". It adds about 5" of Z travel.



A shot of it making a .250 inch doc with .150 inch in-feed using a .5 inch end-mill in 4140 chrome moly. There was still some noise, but no banging or thumping.

It's definitely a big improvement, I'm tempted to scrape it in and re-fit the gibs properly as they aren't the best.

Regards.

Steve.

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 08:02:56 AM »
Steve, I believe your homemade base has a lot to do with why your mill is improved.  I mean not only did you eliminate the column flex, but you also gave it a much better base.  I have been looking at the factory base on my own X2 and believe, since the best word to describe the Sieg type base is flimsy, improvement there is possible.

Clearly increasing the mass and rigidity of the mill body, regardless of whether we speak of the base or the column has an impact in reducing vibration.  I had already decided I wasn't that impressed with the air spring design because it reminds me too much of the ones on my old Bronco II and my old Pinto.  Every year or so I wound up having to replace them.  They would work fine on the hatch for a few months, then one day you would notice the hatch slowly closing instead of remaining in position.  The silly things wear out with use.  Since the air valve looks to me exactly like the ones I used to replace in my Fords, I suspect the long term performance would be the same.  Alternatively, I don't forsee much failure of the spring anytime soon.  An article in the Yahoo groups about doing the epoxy fill suggests just filling the bottom 6 inches so as to leave room for the air buffer assembly.  I did way more than 6 inches of fill and ran it up to just below the spindle shaft.  Also I used steel and sand instead of just sand or gravel.  I suspect that added a lot more mass than just sand with the epoxy.  LoL, I was initially going to just cut and epoxy in place a steel bar about 3 inches by two and about 7 inches long, but I decided that would be a waste of a very nice steel plate. 

Also there is enough on the web arguing about the discontinuity of a fill material, such as sand or granite chips, reducing the vibration that I decided to play it safe and use some sand, but also small steel parts. 

Teegee, I am finding the head drop issue was two things.  First of course column vibration allows the slop in the fit of the gib lock screw to move during vibration, then it backs out, which then drops the milling head.  A drop of loctite blue or red on the screw threads of the column's gib lock screw may solve that for you.  Even if you don't also do the epoxy fix.  I would go ahead and try blue loctite on the lock thread and see if that eliminates that problem for you.  On my own mill I observed many of the bolts had some slop and tended to loosen during vibration.  <Also the column nut had some slop.  Not enough to feel with your hand, but enough to allow the nut to loosen during column vibration. >  I loctited them all to eliminate the slop, then did the epoxy fix of the column which greatly reduced the vibration.

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 08:39:29 PM »
My mill column came attached to the side of my lathe, a Grizzly g0516, needless to say it did not belong there - so I bought an X-Y table from LMS, and, like most X2 mills it banged and thumped when making cuts in steel.

Here's a pic of my solution...



The new column is 4"x6" steel with a wall thickness of 3/8"  and the base pieces are 2" x 3" by 3/8". It adds about 5" of Z travel.



A shot of it making a .250 inch doc with .150 inch in-feed using a .5 inch end-mill in 4140 chrome moly. There was still some noise, but no banging or thumping.

It's definitely a big improvement, I'm tempted to scrape it in and re-fit the gibs properly as they aren't the best.

Regards.

Steve.
Steve,
I can see how that setup you've made is a vast improvement over standard,but wouldn't it be even more so if you filled the box sections with strong concrete mix?
It would also give you better vibration damping due to the increased mass, as well.....OZ.

Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline rythmnbls

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 11:21:09 AM »
Quote
I can see how that setup you've made is a vast improvement over standard,but wouldn't it be even more so if you filled the box sections with strong concrete mix?
It would also give you better vibration damping due to the increased mass, as well.....OZ.

That is something I have considered, but future plans for this mill include some small servo motors and Linuxcnc, so for the moment I'll hold off on the concrete while I'm still drilling holes and fitting bits 'n' pieces on it.

Regards.

Steve.

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 10:58:50 PM »
I was blown away by reading how deep a cut you can make now in steel!  :bugeye: I would never have ever dreamed of trying anything deeper than 0.050" on any kind of metal, let alone steel, on one of these mills. I'd really like to see that kind of improvement, but I have the Spring-Air modification on mine, so there needs to be a space inside for it. Has anyone found a way to do this yet (like maybe using a hollow tube in the center for the cylinder, then filling around that?)

I can't tell you how many hundreds of milling passes I have made at 0.010-0.015" just because I didn't think this little beast could go heavier on steel. Any time I have tried to exceed 0.020" on steel I would start hearing the Grim Reaper coming for my little mill. ;)  I'd like to find a way to get even half way to where yours is in stability for heavier milling.

Before I even know what this meant, I actually "work hardened" a steel block I was milling to hold down my 3" Screwless Vise. I was even using Carbide, but was getting too much chatter and didn't catch it fast enough, being new to milling. Suddenly the carbide just couldn't cut the surface anymore. I was at a loss to figure it out, and started over with a new piece, and shallower cuts. My friend, a toolmaker, later explained what happened when I told him about it.

Offline velocette

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2014, 01:40:50 PM »
Hi to all
Sharing Info from another forum for those interested in X2 column improvements

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f28/mini-mill-spindle-column-alignment-5337/

or

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f28/reducing-mini-mill-column-flex-column-y-axis-alignment-5401/

masses of ideas here for those interested

Eric

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2014, 03:28:06 PM »
 :bugeye: :worthless:

Check the height of your column nut when on the bolted down mill before drilling the plate.  On the drawing I posted it shows as 3.25.  However, I just measured the actual height on my own SX2 mill and from the bottom of the mill to the center of the whole is 3.68"   That's a whopping difference!


 :Doh:

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2014, 06:36:57 PM »
Also someone else advised theirs is 3.5 to the column nut center, so this means the height of the x2 bases are not consistent which translates to measure, measure, measure.


Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 12:53:18 AM »
 :update:
Although I don't seem to need it, since I did go to the trouble of cutting the T out of a heavy plate for use as a column backstop, I decided to go ahead and place the column hole.  I clamped the plate down and drilled the 15/16 hole.


You can't see it, but there are some 1" blocks under the plate to keep the drill from marring the table upon penetration.

I have more plates, so if I messed the placement of the column bolt hole up, I would be real angry at myself, but would somehow cope.  After I had drilled the hole as a quick test I slit the plate over the column bolt without taking the M24 nut off.  I am pleased to report I got the column bolt hole placement exactly right and the plate fits perfectly on my mill.





The next step, if I decide to proceed past this point would be to drill holes in the short leg of the T, and corresponding holes in the base which I would then tap and of course holes at the top of the plate and into the column, again which I would tap.  I am thinking short pieces of small steel pipe could be used as spacers for the bottom bolts.  In any case, from my perspective the hardest part was making sure the column bolt hole went into exactly the right place. 

I am not happy about the idea of drilling and tapping the base, but now that the column backplate can be placed against the column the holes can be located then drilled in the backplate, then the backplate itself used as a guide for locating exactly where the holes should go in the base and also as a tap guide/block to aid in hand tapping the holes in the base.




Offline RussellT

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 07:40:00 AM »

I am not happy about the idea of drilling and tapping the base

If you're not happy about drilling and tapping the base why not use the holding down bolts.  You could make a plate to go under the base with tapped holes under the lugs and fasten that to the plate you've already made.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2014, 10:43:42 AM »
Good solution! Always another way to skin the proverbial cat.  *   :)

I did not have a problem drilling and tapping mine 3/8 - 18 last night. I think as long as you avoid an imaginary line drawn upward from where the casting "foot" inner edge starts the gap seen between the feet at the bottom, you will be OK. I went inward, placing the holes right next to either side of the 4" wide vertical plate. But you could probably also go outward onto the area above the foot, so long as you don't use too large a hole.

My take on the risk of casting voids was if I did run into a problem on either hole, I would switch to making a steel
bar wrapping around the back side of the casting, screwed into the sides, tapping that instead. But the underfoot method described above would remove all issue of casting void dangers.

*  (No animals were harmed in the making of this modification. )

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2014, 01:57:05 PM »
Sigh.  Russell, where were you when I was pondering the shape of my column back rest and what size plate I would need? 

That is actually a very good idea.  Instead of an upside down T shape an upside down Y shape with long arms on the Y bent at 90 degree angles so as to go under the base and to the bolt holes for where the base bolts to the table. 

I hope the next X2 modder picks that up.  T'would be far more monolithic than the T plate as far as making everything one piece goes. 

Five minutes with a rosebud on the torch should be sufficient to droop most 1/4" plates over a 90 lip.  Slow cool of course.  I think I would do the Y cut before the bend of the metal.  Maybe place the mount bolt holes before bend too.  Do the column bolt hole afterwards of course because you wouldn't really know the precise position until after the bend happened. 





Offline velocette

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 03:14:08 PM »
Hi
the proposal by Russel is a great idea can I do a bit of a leap frog on it and suggest that instead of bending the back plate.
 Is that you use an angle iron bolted under the base and  drill the bolt holes with the angle bolted to the base and the backplate clamped to it.
Apologies all round for Hi Jacking this thread.
A working life around machinery maintaining and modifying it is a vice that has developed to see someone else have a good idea and pounce on it to try and make it better.
Pity I did not get this info earlier my X2 has a "Rat Nest" on the column stiffener.
Eric

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 03:18:25 PM »
The different possible permutations in this project, keep reminding me of the recent recycling advert.

"The possibilities are endless"........

Love it! The spirit of Modder. Keep 'em coming......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 04:26:45 PM »
Velocette, (Nah, that isn't a hijack.  It is still on X2 column mod, so I think it is on topic) the reason I would rather have a bent Y (with the arms looking more like a square cut U with a tail) is quite simple.  One piece and not three (or 8 if we include nuts, bolts and lock washers, each as a possible failure point). 
I am thinking hot or cold rolled plate 1/4" to 3/8" thickness.  About 13" on the bottom Y axis side and 10" high on the Z axis in back.  It may weigh about a kilo, but it would definitely stiffen everything.  You would have the 2 bolt holes on the left for the base mounts, 2 on the right for the base mounts, and the one column bolt hole in the rear.  Slide it on from the rear over the column bolt hole and put the legs under the base.  Then bolt down the base and tighten the column bolt washer.  Put your two top bolts in (really only 1 would be needed, but let us hear it for redundancy) when you got it all trammed.  Ain't no way that unit would ever flex or move again if you didn't wish it to.

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 06:32:10 PM »
I like this current idea, but I am wondering about trying to bend 3/8 plate. Might be difficult unless you have a very large vise.

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 09:40:25 PM »
LoL.  I wouldn't do that by hand.  I have an Oxy Acetylene rig in the shed out back.  Okay, I confess, because the groundhogs keep getting in there and knocking stuff over, I swapped out the Acetylene for Oxy MAPP and the correct hoses, but really I never noticed any difference in performance.  If I put the big rosebud on that plate it will wilt like ice cream on a July day.  So I would envision just stick about 13" of one end off the edge of some bricks or similar.  Then hit with the heat at the edge of the fold.  Maybe gently push with the big hammer when it turns brite yellow (should be beginning to droop by then anyway) before it moves on to white.  That's how I would do it anyway.

I have a fair amount of 60+ year old farm and agriculture equipment that take down for parts replacement is specifically intended by the manufacturer to require a torch.  Quite simply the stuff was made with no other way to disassemble it but heat it with a torch until it grows soft, then fold the iron back and swap out your parts, then reheat it and fold the iron cover back over.  Tillers and gear housings and stuff like that. 

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 11:05:22 AM »
"If it works, it's good" definitely applies here. :) Can you get a fairly sharp bend in something this thick?

Why did your groundhogs prefer Acetylene over MAPP? lol

I'm picturing a groundhog with a buzz from the gas. Funny. :)

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 03:33:43 PM »
 :smart:

This is a knowledge thing I guess and a classic example of how what you don't know can..,

Acetylene tanks don't like being toppled over.  NOT AT ALL.  You can't even safely gently lay them on their side.  Loosely summed up sometimes really big bangs can happen either way.  If the tank is with an Oxygen tank and the bang happens, then you get a really, really, really big bang. 

I had it bungy corded to the wall but it seems the groundhogs bevered their way through the wood floor right there and dropped the tank in the process.  I was lucky I guess, but I also took the hint.  Mapp, a propane derivative, doesn't much care what position you store the bottle in.  Yes it is 4 times as costly, introduces Hydrogen which can make large steel welds brittle, and it burns a few degrees cooler (5300° F vs the 6000° F of Acetylene) but the melting point of steel is only 2600 - 2800° F, so who cares?  Also dropped Mapp gas tanks do not leave a smouldering crater where there was once a building.

Offline tomrux

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2014, 04:15:23 PM »
Acetylene tanks don't like being toppled over.  NOT AT ALL.  You can't even safely gently lay them on their side.  Loosely summed up sometimes really big bangs can happen either way.  If the tank is with an Oxygen tank and the bang happens, then you get a really, really, really big bang.

can just see people all over the place running scared of acetylene bottles.
Yes you cant use them lying on their side but NO they wont explode if laid down or even falling over.

Tom R

Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 06:01:39 PM »

HI All
Quote
Yes you cant use them lying on their side but NO they wont explode if laid down or even falling over

This is a very dangerous practice :bugeye:
lying the Acetylene tank on its side while using it allows the stabilising agent (acetone) to flow from the tank

The lack of stabilising agent can cause catastrophe   :jaw:




Regards
John

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 06:27:05 PM »
Well, I was always told it is dangerous and illegal to "haul" them lying down, and that you should always use them upright. But I had not heard why.  And of course use the valve cover, but I figured that was in case one accidentally did fall over, so the valve didn't get snapped off. I imagine any flammable gas cylinder falling over and hitting a floor would be potentially disastrous. I keep mine on a cart designed for the purpose, and haul the whole cart strapped upright in a pickup when they need to go be exchanged.

Regarding the stories about penetrating concrete walls when one "launches", my dad saw this happen when working in US Steel decades ago.

Another thing I was told was that MAPP gas burned hotter (and so was more desireable and justified the higher cost). I guess that was wrong. My father in law used to use LP in place of acetylene because it was cheaper. Burned cooler, but got the job done.

I decided to Google mapp gas vs. acetylene, and learned that it does indeed burn cooler, but it is much safer to use and transport. And, something surprising to me - the mapp gas you buy today isn't really mapp gas. We stopped producing genuine mapp gas in North America in Spring 2008. The mapp gas sold today is a replacement made of LP gas with high levels of propylene added. Learn something new every day! :) I'll bet they did not lower the price. ;)


Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 09:05:59 PM »
Tell that to Morrisania Hospital in NYC.  That was cited as the direct cause of the explosion that destroyed that hospital (there were several dozen O2 tanks near by as well as other bottled gases).  Not a distant event for me cause I saw the blast from the #4 train station.

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 09:11:40 PM »
<snipped for brevity>
I decided to Google mapp gas vs. acetylene, and learned that it does indeed burn cooler, but it is much safer to use and transport. And, something surprising to me - the mapp gas you buy today isn't really mapp gas. We stopped producing genuine mapp gas in North America in Spring 2008. The mapp gas sold today is a replacement made of LP gas with high levels of propylene added. Learn something new every day! :) I'll bet they did not lower the price. ;)

Well it may now be empty but I got two big bottles back in 05.  I last used some of one of them back in 2010.  In theory, there should be about 1 1/3 tanks of genuine Mapp in the shed since I never did crack one of them.  It is of course recognized they may both be empty (also the O) but my fingers are crossed. 

Offline RussellT

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2014, 04:23:39 AM »
Hi Metal Muncher and Superc.

I'm glad you liked my idea - sorry if you had to rethink.  Next time I'll try and post an answer before you post the question. :lol:

The thread now seems to have digressed onto how to bend a thick steel plate.  I'm with Velocette, I wouldn't try and bend it.  I'd use angle or solid bar to connect two plates.  That seems to me to have a better chance of getting them at 90 degrees and also gives some scope for adjusting the angle for a perfect fit.

Russell
Common sense is unfortunately not as common as its name suggests.

Offline superc

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2014, 02:11:23 PM »
Well I agree we are moving off topic, gases and the ilk.  Sure if you have never flopped semi molten steel before, don't go that way.

In any case I came up with a new idea and I am starting a new thread about that.  I think the best place to put it is in 'Neat Stuff,' look for it there.

Offline tomrux

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2014, 05:08:00 PM »
Vintage
perhaps my Grammar escaped you but I did say you "CANT" as in 'can not' use them lying down. So long as they are stood up for a while before use transport/storage  lying down is all good. they wont go exploding. And there is not sufficient pressure in an Acetylene bottle to go torpedo.

Tom R

Offline mattinker

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2014, 05:22:43 PM »
I'm curious, when was the explosion?

Regards, Matthew

Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2014, 06:15:28 PM »
Hi Metal Muncher and Superc.

I'm glad you liked my idea - sorry if you had to rethink.  Next time I'll try and post an answer before you post the question. :lol:

The thread now seems to have digressed onto how to bend a thick steel plate.  I'm with Velocette, I wouldn't try and bend it.  I'd use angle or solid bar to connect two plates.  That seems to me to have a better chance of getting them at 90 degrees and also gives some scope for adjusting the angle for a perfect fit.

Russell


That was my thought too. Plus I like making things I can take apart later, if need be.


Offline MetalMuncher

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2014, 06:45:57 PM »
OK, back on topic.

I have completed this modification, and got some amazing results! Test milling 6061 I worked incrementally up to a cut of 0.1" depth with the full width of a 7/16 end mill, and it milled smoothly and quietly, under power feed, in both directions. I probably could have gone deeper,  but wanted to see steel. I used a scrap block of 1018. Understand I am accustomed to not exceeding 0.020" on steel due to the way the job would chatter and make the mill sound like something wanted to come apart. So, I started out at 0.020, with great results. Increased to 0.040, still cutting smoothly and quietly. Increased to 0.060, and still worked well. Keep in mind this was cut dry, in both directions across the piece (so half the time the force applied to the moveable jaw on my 4" screwless vise) using an X axis powerfeed like that sold by LMS or MicroMark.

As an "acid test" I added some Tricut fluid to the piece and dialed in a depth of 0.080". I used hand feed just in case I needed to back pedal quickly. The mill grumbled a little, but I did make the pass OK.

These results thrilled me! :D I feel I have quadrupled the capability lf this little mill simply by doing this plate mod, and wish I had seen this back in 2004 when I got the mill.

I am considering also trying filling the bottom of the column, below my spring air cylinder mount, but having just trammed the mill to a variance of only 0.0005" on both X and Y axes, I am hesitant to pull the column off to make the requisite plug for the pivot bolt holes to prevent whatever fill material I would use from adhering to the bolt.

I found that the sequence of tightening the 23mm bolt and the 4 bolts on the lower bar is important. I had everything trammed within that half mil mentioned above, but decided to snug the big nut again. Bad idea. I lost the tram and had to begin again from loose. I should mention the device I made to help with tramming. It is essentially a miniature tie rod, screwed between the column and base casting on the left side. Makes fine adjustments on X axis tram very easy, and holds the column vertical when the nut is removed. Here's a picture of it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o6rqs1huir7rmg9/Mill%20Column%20Turnbuckle%2014_0226.png

So I had to tighten the big nut as tight as I wanted it, BEFORE beginning tightening the bar at the bottom of the stiffener plate. My mill has the typical forward head droop, so I then worked with the outer bolts first, tightning them together and watching the dial indicator I had on the spindle, contacting a precision ground steel plate clamped to the table, to eliminate the droop. Lastly, snug the inner bar bolts against the casting to stabilize the outer bolts, and I was good to go.

THANK YOU for this modification!!!! :)

Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2014, 07:39:38 PM »
HI Tom R,
Sorry I misread your "cant"
Its usually written "can't" as a shortened "can not" as you meant
"cant" is a different word all together

We both know what the dangers are when acetylene tanks are canted over    :lol:

Regards
John

Offline iafilius

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2015, 04:19:18 AM »
I bought my SX2 with the fixed column option (from Sieg factory, via local company here in Singapore). When taking heavy-ish cuts, it still is very loud. It sounds like it's vibration coming from the electronics box, but I'm not sure. I've been thinking about filling the column with epoxy and gravel too, though I have absolutely no idea if it will help any..

The other thing that is very annoying is the head drop issue, which I need to look at too.

Hi teegee

About the loud vibrating you talk about, i noticed that too, not sure of course it is about the same.

The noise seemed to come from the upper side.

While converting my sx2p with r8 spindle to tapered upper and lower bearing, i noticed a possible (likely) source.
The motor is attached to a plastic cap of the tooth-belt, and the cap itself is attached to the head with four bolts around the spindle pulley.
See photo's.
The motor side of the plastic cap is not bolted to the head and what i think while heavy cuts the motor will go up/down and slamming on the head causing very loud noise.

Offline teegee

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Re: Yet another guy tries to fix his Sieg SX2 looseness
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2015, 02:37:32 AM »
About the loud vibrating you talk about, i noticed that too, not sure of course it is about the same.

The noise seemed to come from the upper side.

While converting my sx2p with r8 spindle to tapered upper and lower bearing, i noticed a possible (likely) source.
The motor is attached to a plastic cap of the tooth-belt, and the cap itself is attached to the head with four bolts around the spindle pulley.
See photo's.
The motor side of the plastic cap is not bolted to the head and what i think while heavy cuts the motor will go up/down and slamming on the head causing very loud noise.

Hah, I saw your comment by coincidence. Thanks, I will definitely keep an eye out for that the next time it happens. You may well be correct, in which case it should be possible to feel the vibration, and pushing on the motor should make some difference. I already ruled out the electronics box as the source.

Cheers, Rob