Author Topic: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?  (Read 23103 times)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« on: April 03, 2009, 02:28:02 AM »
I`ve started another of many rebuilds of my 3cyl Mamod..... I will be happy with it, one day!   ::)





It has oscillating cylinders, like this single cyl one.....





The brass pistons, (which I re sleeved last year), slide in brass cylinders, and are looking worn already!

Considering the very borderline lubrication, & the need to wag the cylinders......

Would fitting stainless steel pistons be an improvement?  :scratch:

What does the team think?  :wave:

David D.


David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 02:46:46 AM »
David

Its normal to have the cylinders and pistons made out of different materials one ferrous and one none ferrous so making the piston out of stainless would be a good idea. For my loco build I've got phosphor bronze cylinders with stainless steel piston. If you go down this route use a free cutting stainless (S303) as some grades can be a pig to machine as you may probably know.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 04:47:44 AM »
Isn't SS known for galling when used in a sliding action?

You might find the cylinder wearing much quicker too and the piston lasting for a long time. Are you sure you wouldn't rather be making new pistons instead of bores in the future.
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bogstandard

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 06:43:02 AM »
David,

Darren has got it in one.

Normally, when making small steam engines such as this, the easiest to replace part is made to be sacrificial. In this case the piston.
So really the piston should be made from the material which will wear out first.

In this situation, you are in a dilemma, your cylinder is already made from one of the softest metals, and really, going by the above rule, you should use something like aluminium, which is not ideal because it galls too easily.

I have experimented over the years with solutions to your problems, as I still use brass cylinders sometimes in the engines I make, although normally I use bronze.

Unfortunatley, because your engine is a single acting oscillator, it uses the piston as a basic crosshead, so not only is it going in and out, supplying power on the out stroke, it is also controlling the swing of the cylinder using the piston side walls as the guide. It is that action that causes all the wear.

Because you are using saturated steam at rather low pressure, and also (even though it doesn't feel like it) a lower temperature, opens up two ways of easily getting what is required.

Both of these solutions are now open to a man of your calibre.

The first and easiest would be to make the piston from PTFE. It has a very low coefficient of friction and expansion, and wears very well. I personally would make the piston slightly longer to give the maximum bearing surface on the walls of the cylinder. So that would require a bit of working out to make the piston crown be in it's normal position, but the skirt longer.

The second, and more difficult method would still retain the brass piston, but you would fit an o-ring as a sealing component. This allows for a bit of a sloppy fit due to wear, but still retain the steam tightness. There are two types of rings that can be used, Viton or silicone. Again, I would make slightly longer pistons if possible.

Ringed pistons do take a bit more 'breakout' pressure to start, but once running, they act as normal.
 
Viton would be the preferred material because of being so robust, but does require a caution due to compounds produced if overheating the material (not normally encountered at the temperatures you are operating at). I use the Viton o-rings in the engines I produce.
When subjected to open flame type temperatures, to put it simply, it produces a very nasty acid that eats away tissue and bone, in a lot of cases, it requires amputation of the affected part to stop the spread to other parts of the body. But don't let that put you off using it, what are a few limbs between friends. Joking apart, it is perfectly safe to use when in the context of what we do, but the warning has to be given.

Silicone, although very good with little or no side effects, is a little less robust and the wear properties are not as good. Contact with WD40 causes them to swell up and become useless in a very short time.

It takes a little bit of working out and fine machining to fit them, but I don't think you would have any trouble with that side.

There is a third way to prevent wear, and that is to transfer the wear area to outside of the cylinder away from the cylinder wall, by the use of an external guide. That would require a bit of fine turning, but again, well within your capabilities. You could also retain your standard brass pistons, as less wear would be encountered. If you want a sketch, just ask. The main problem would be cosmetically, the engine wouldn't look as it came from the factory.

I notice that you don't have an in line lubricator. That is one of the first bits you should fit to help solve the wear problem, and they are dead easy to make, as I showed the members on the Mamod site.

I am sorry to have gone into it rather deeply, but small engines are a bit of a passion of mine, and if you can grasp the basics of operation, they are really very easily 'fixed'.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 06:57:43 AM »
Nice in depth reply John, lots to glean there  :thumbup:

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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 07:23:58 AM »
That was very interesting bit of info John

Thanks

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 07:57:50 AM »
By `ek John!

That were a mind blast!  :clap:

Much appreciated, thank you.   :thumbup:


I always re sleeve pistons to a nice fit in the cylinders, as a matter of course.......
I`ve been looking at piston lengths this morning...... Don`t have much leeway......  ::)

Guess I could make longer pistons, & chamfer the piston "side" to clear the port area........


PTFE sounds good to me. I never gave plastic a thought!  :scratch:

Is that what we called Delrin, when I was working?.......... I`ve got a bagfull of it under my bench!  :)

Thanks Guys for your input.

David D.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:03:26 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 08:20:39 AM »
Hi David,

Delrin is a different material, lower melting point and nowhere as slippy. It also absorbs water and swells, but not much. Mechanically I don't think it would stand up to the abuse, esp at the gudgeon pin area.

PTFE is really slippy, I have a 50mm section about half a meter long. You have to hold on to it tightly or it will slide right out you hand  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 11:22:59 AM »
Source for PTFE and other small stuff. they are all much of a muchness on price and postage. This is one fairly local to me.

http://www.nogginend.com/index_files/Page2153.htm

John

Do have a look at the train set at the bottom of the home page.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 11:28:27 AM by bogstandard »

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 12:04:30 PM »
Many thanks John,

Just sent `em an order.

I like the idea of plastic pistons........  :thumbup:



LOVE that train set!!!  :headbang:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

David D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 12:18:07 PM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 12:11:37 PM »
Oh yer..... Like I'd go on that train!!!!!!!!!!!!  :bugeye: 


 :lol:    Good find, well made  :thumbup:




Oh.... All that info was good too  :) 




Ralph.


I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 12:35:45 PM »
Incredible how they make such videos look so real...enjoyed that  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 04:14:51 PM »
David,

Before you start, contact me or ask on here, and I can give you a few pointers on machining PTFE, and how to get them to run in your engine.

John




Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 02:27:22 AM »
David,

Before you start, contact me or ask on here, and I can give you a few pointers on machining PTFE, and how to get them to run in your engine.

John

Will do! (I thought it wouldn`t be a straightforward job).  ::)

Ta....  :thumbup:

D.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 03:04:18 AM »
Don't worry David.

Because PTFE is so slick, you can't stick it to things, so you have to do things mechanically.

John

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 03:21:19 AM »
Don't worry David.

Because PTFE is so slick, you can't stick it to things, so you have to do things mechanically.

John

Hmmmm. Yes John,

I was already thinking how I would press fit onto the 1/8" conrod.......  :scratch:

Here`s one I did earlier.





This will be a few weeks of a project......

I hope to have it run all day, at Lincoln in 3 weeks time....... :wave:

David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 03:55:25 AM »
Somebody's stolen the gudgeon pin....!!  :bugeye:


That'll make life simpler,  :ddb:


(I didn't realise steam engines didn't have one, or is it just wobblers)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline John Hill

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 04:49:39 AM »
Wobblers dont have gudgeon pins else they would not wobble!  I think most steam engines have a slide at the end of the piston rod so presumeably they dont have gudgeon pins and I expect a double acting one would not have them either.
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2009, 03:37:02 AM »
Rebuilt again.  :wave:
Still with "original" pistons.

First run, yesterday, on air at 10psi.





Tweaking to do but, all ok, so far.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2009, 04:00:50 AM »


I hope to have it run all day, at Lincoln in 3 weeks time....... :wave:

David.
[/quote]

What's going on at Lincoln then ?, hope your having lunch at Browns Pie Shop best Rabbit Pie in England  :thumbup:

Stew


A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 05:48:08 AM »
Stew,

My other forum,

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/   

Is having a steam up at the Museum of Lincolnshire Life, on 25th April.

http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/eventDetails.asp?eventcode=46974

There will be a lot of steam engines on show.

I`ll post something about it, when I find out where to, when I get a minute or so.....

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2009, 10:23:00 AM »
Hi David

I know Lincoln well, I use to go on buisness there a few years ago. All I need is an excuse to nip over and sample a rabbit pie I'll have a word with my boss to see if she's interested in a day out.

Cheers

Stew
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:17:38 AM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 11:09:58 AM »
You know, steam engines I can take or leave, but if you guys keep stuffing them in my face eventually I'll just have to build one... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

You're doing that engine proud David...looks good  :thumbup:

What is that compressor, a fridge pump?  :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 11:56:30 AM »
Stew,
It would be nice to meet you, even before Harrogate.....  :thumbup:

Firing ranges!!

I was a pistol shot/ range officer....... Before Tony Blair.......  :bang: :bang:

DON`T get me started.....  ::)


Darren, thank you!

Kitchen sink (non)drama.......





First steaming this afternoon, on the kitchen sink...... Sweeeeeet! Very happy Chappie!  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

The compressor is from a home dehumidifier. Very quiet......  :clap:

Not enough puff for the triple.....  ::)

David D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 12:31:27 PM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 01:01:47 PM »
Stew,
It would be nice to meet you, even before Harrogate.....  :thumbup:

Firing ranges!!

I was a pistol shot/ range officer....... Before Tony Blair.......  :bang: :bang:




Whoops  I let that slip that's one side of me I try to keep quite. I'm not a hobby shooter I do Ordinance related work for MOD.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire