Author Topic: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?  (Read 23101 times)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« on: April 03, 2009, 02:28:02 AM »
I`ve started another of many rebuilds of my 3cyl Mamod..... I will be happy with it, one day!   ::)





It has oscillating cylinders, like this single cyl one.....





The brass pistons, (which I re sleeved last year), slide in brass cylinders, and are looking worn already!

Considering the very borderline lubrication, & the need to wag the cylinders......

Would fitting stainless steel pistons be an improvement?  :scratch:

What does the team think?  :wave:

David D.


David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 02:46:46 AM »
David

Its normal to have the cylinders and pistons made out of different materials one ferrous and one none ferrous so making the piston out of stainless would be a good idea. For my loco build I've got phosphor bronze cylinders with stainless steel piston. If you go down this route use a free cutting stainless (S303) as some grades can be a pig to machine as you may probably know.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 04:47:44 AM »
Isn't SS known for galling when used in a sliding action?

You might find the cylinder wearing much quicker too and the piston lasting for a long time. Are you sure you wouldn't rather be making new pistons instead of bores in the future.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 06:43:02 AM »
David,

Darren has got it in one.

Normally, when making small steam engines such as this, the easiest to replace part is made to be sacrificial. In this case the piston.
So really the piston should be made from the material which will wear out first.

In this situation, you are in a dilemma, your cylinder is already made from one of the softest metals, and really, going by the above rule, you should use something like aluminium, which is not ideal because it galls too easily.

I have experimented over the years with solutions to your problems, as I still use brass cylinders sometimes in the engines I make, although normally I use bronze.

Unfortunatley, because your engine is a single acting oscillator, it uses the piston as a basic crosshead, so not only is it going in and out, supplying power on the out stroke, it is also controlling the swing of the cylinder using the piston side walls as the guide. It is that action that causes all the wear.

Because you are using saturated steam at rather low pressure, and also (even though it doesn't feel like it) a lower temperature, opens up two ways of easily getting what is required.

Both of these solutions are now open to a man of your calibre.

The first and easiest would be to make the piston from PTFE. It has a very low coefficient of friction and expansion, and wears very well. I personally would make the piston slightly longer to give the maximum bearing surface on the walls of the cylinder. So that would require a bit of working out to make the piston crown be in it's normal position, but the skirt longer.

The second, and more difficult method would still retain the brass piston, but you would fit an o-ring as a sealing component. This allows for a bit of a sloppy fit due to wear, but still retain the steam tightness. There are two types of rings that can be used, Viton or silicone. Again, I would make slightly longer pistons if possible.

Ringed pistons do take a bit more 'breakout' pressure to start, but once running, they act as normal.
 
Viton would be the preferred material because of being so robust, but does require a caution due to compounds produced if overheating the material (not normally encountered at the temperatures you are operating at). I use the Viton o-rings in the engines I produce.
When subjected to open flame type temperatures, to put it simply, it produces a very nasty acid that eats away tissue and bone, in a lot of cases, it requires amputation of the affected part to stop the spread to other parts of the body. But don't let that put you off using it, what are a few limbs between friends. Joking apart, it is perfectly safe to use when in the context of what we do, but the warning has to be given.

Silicone, although very good with little or no side effects, is a little less robust and the wear properties are not as good. Contact with WD40 causes them to swell up and become useless in a very short time.

It takes a little bit of working out and fine machining to fit them, but I don't think you would have any trouble with that side.

There is a third way to prevent wear, and that is to transfer the wear area to outside of the cylinder away from the cylinder wall, by the use of an external guide. That would require a bit of fine turning, but again, well within your capabilities. You could also retain your standard brass pistons, as less wear would be encountered. If you want a sketch, just ask. The main problem would be cosmetically, the engine wouldn't look as it came from the factory.

I notice that you don't have an in line lubricator. That is one of the first bits you should fit to help solve the wear problem, and they are dead easy to make, as I showed the members on the Mamod site.

I am sorry to have gone into it rather deeply, but small engines are a bit of a passion of mine, and if you can grasp the basics of operation, they are really very easily 'fixed'.

John

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 06:57:43 AM »
Nice in depth reply John, lots to glean there  :thumbup:

You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 07:23:58 AM »
That was very interesting bit of info John

Thanks

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 07:57:50 AM »
By `ek John!

That were a mind blast!  :clap:

Much appreciated, thank you.   :thumbup:


I always re sleeve pistons to a nice fit in the cylinders, as a matter of course.......
I`ve been looking at piston lengths this morning...... Don`t have much leeway......  ::)

Guess I could make longer pistons, & chamfer the piston "side" to clear the port area........


PTFE sounds good to me. I never gave plastic a thought!  :scratch:

Is that what we called Delrin, when I was working?.......... I`ve got a bagfull of it under my bench!  :)

Thanks Guys for your input.

David D.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:03:26 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 08:20:39 AM »
Hi David,

Delrin is a different material, lower melting point and nowhere as slippy. It also absorbs water and swells, but not much. Mechanically I don't think it would stand up to the abuse, esp at the gudgeon pin area.

PTFE is really slippy, I have a 50mm section about half a meter long. You have to hold on to it tightly or it will slide right out you hand  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 11:22:59 AM »
Source for PTFE and other small stuff. they are all much of a muchness on price and postage. This is one fairly local to me.

http://www.nogginend.com/index_files/Page2153.htm

John

Do have a look at the train set at the bottom of the home page.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 11:28:27 AM by bogstandard »

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 12:04:30 PM »
Many thanks John,

Just sent `em an order.

I like the idea of plastic pistons........  :thumbup:



LOVE that train set!!!  :headbang:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

David D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 12:18:07 PM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Divided he ad

  • WARNING: LIKES SHINEY THINGS
  • The Collective
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1950
  • Country: gb
  • Between Chester, Wrexham, ruthin & Holywell :-)
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 12:11:37 PM »
Oh yer..... Like I'd go on that train!!!!!!!!!!!!  :bugeye: 


 :lol:    Good find, well made  :thumbup:




Oh.... All that info was good too  :) 




Ralph.


I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 12:35:45 PM »
Incredible how they make such videos look so real...enjoyed that  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 04:14:51 PM »
David,

Before you start, contact me or ask on here, and I can give you a few pointers on machining PTFE, and how to get them to run in your engine.

John




Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2009, 02:27:22 AM »
David,

Before you start, contact me or ask on here, and I can give you a few pointers on machining PTFE, and how to get them to run in your engine.

John

Will do! (I thought it wouldn`t be a straightforward job).  ::)

Ta....  :thumbup:

D.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2009, 03:04:18 AM »
Don't worry David.

Because PTFE is so slick, you can't stick it to things, so you have to do things mechanically.

John

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2009, 03:21:19 AM »
Don't worry David.

Because PTFE is so slick, you can't stick it to things, so you have to do things mechanically.

John

Hmmmm. Yes John,

I was already thinking how I would press fit onto the 1/8" conrod.......  :scratch:

Here`s one I did earlier.





This will be a few weeks of a project......

I hope to have it run all day, at Lincoln in 3 weeks time....... :wave:

David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2009, 03:55:25 AM »
Somebody's stolen the gudgeon pin....!!  :bugeye:


That'll make life simpler,  :ddb:


(I didn't realise steam engines didn't have one, or is it just wobblers)
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline John Hill

  • The Artful Bodger
  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • Country: nz
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2009, 04:49:39 AM »
Wobblers dont have gudgeon pins else they would not wobble!  I think most steam engines have a slide at the end of the piston rod so presumeably they dont have gudgeon pins and I expect a double acting one would not have them either.
From the den of The Artful Bodger

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2009, 03:37:02 AM »
Rebuilt again.  :wave:
Still with "original" pistons.

First run, yesterday, on air at 10psi.





Tweaking to do but, all ok, so far.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2009, 04:00:50 AM »


I hope to have it run all day, at Lincoln in 3 weeks time....... :wave:

David.
[/quote]

What's going on at Lincoln then ?, hope your having lunch at Browns Pie Shop best Rabbit Pie in England  :thumbup:

Stew


A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 05:48:08 AM »
Stew,

My other forum,

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/   

Is having a steam up at the Museum of Lincolnshire Life, on 25th April.

http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/eventDetails.asp?eventcode=46974

There will be a lot of steam engines on show.

I`ll post something about it, when I find out where to, when I get a minute or so.....

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2009, 10:23:00 AM »
Hi David

I know Lincoln well, I use to go on buisness there a few years ago. All I need is an excuse to nip over and sample a rabbit pie I'll have a word with my boss to see if she's interested in a day out.

Cheers

Stew
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 01:17:38 AM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 11:09:58 AM »
You know, steam engines I can take or leave, but if you guys keep stuffing them in my face eventually I'll just have to build one... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

You're doing that engine proud David...looks good  :thumbup:

What is that compressor, a fridge pump?  :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 11:56:30 AM »
Stew,
It would be nice to meet you, even before Harrogate.....  :thumbup:

Firing ranges!!

I was a pistol shot/ range officer....... Before Tony Blair.......  :bang: :bang:

DON`T get me started.....  ::)


Darren, thank you!

Kitchen sink (non)drama.......





First steaming this afternoon, on the kitchen sink...... Sweeeeeet! Very happy Chappie!  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

The compressor is from a home dehumidifier. Very quiet......  :clap:

Not enough puff for the triple.....  ::)

David D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 12:31:27 PM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 01:01:47 PM »
Stew,
It would be nice to meet you, even before Harrogate.....  :thumbup:

Firing ranges!!

I was a pistol shot/ range officer....... Before Tony Blair.......  :bang: :bang:




Whoops  I let that slip that's one side of me I try to keep quite. I'm not a hobby shooter I do Ordinance related work for MOD.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 01:06:44 PM »
I`ll not tell anyone Stew...... :thumbup:

I`m not a hobby shooter either, anymore......  ::)

David.

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 02:35:37 PM »
I'm not either, since Blair that is.... :(
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2009, 02:42:57 PM »
Dave

25th April is Members open day at Chester Zoo (we have a season tickets)

Spoilt for choise  :scratch:

Monkeys or Steamers.  :scratch:

Rabbit Pie or Ham sandwich.  :scratch:

The boss likes the Idea of the Rabbit Pie

I think it will be Lincoln I'll let you know for certain closer to.

Stew



A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 08:05:14 AM »
Stew,

Well, that`s done it!  ::)

I`ve mentioned rabbit pie on the Mamod forum.  :wave:

Several of em are salivating furiously, and a Scottish member intends to take some back over the border with him!  :D

Where do we find this famous Brown`s rabbit pie shop?  :thumbup:

David D
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:08:09 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
Its near the Castle Prison and just across from the White Hart Hotel, at the top of Steep Hill:- Your not to far away at the musium of Lincolnshire life.

For pudding they do a mind blowing Bread and Butter pudding steaped in whiskey or Treackle Tart with a scoop of home made vanila ice cream MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM were going.

On occation as a special they do deep fried battered Marse Bars your Scotisch buddies won't want to go home

Steep Hill is the name of the street and it is Steep:- they supply oxygen part way up along with a cardiac arrest team.  :lol:

Stew
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:30:09 AM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2009, 01:51:54 PM »
Ok the address is

Browns Pie Shop, 33 Steep Hill, Lincoln, LN2 1LU  Tel 01522 527330

If your planning on going Saturday night it would be advicable to book.

Enjoy

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »
Thank you for your info Stew.  :wave:

All passed on & posted.....

Much appreciated.  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2009, 03:09:48 AM »
David

I'm more or less 100 % shure we will be going as well my bosess is keen on the idea.
I'll get in touch closer to the date

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2009, 03:29:49 AM »
David

I'm more or less 100 % shure we will be going as well my bosess is keen on the idea.
I'll get in touch closer to the date

Stew

Nice one Stew!  :clap:

I`m really looking forward to a very good day, now......   :thumbup:

Cheers,
David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2009, 03:48:02 AM »
David,

Before you start, contact me or ask on here, and I can give you a few pointers on machining PTFE, and how to get them to run in your engine.

John


Well John, I`m about ready to start these plastic pistons.  :wave:

My thoughts are to machine the rod & big end from 1 length of 1/4" brass rod.

Then, thread the piston end 1/8 or 3mm to screw the piston onto.

Of course, it will need locking onto the thread........  :scratch:

Have you any tips for me please?

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2009, 04:12:54 AM »
I knurled a bit of stainless to grip PTFE, sure held on tight, but whether it would be tight enough for an engine I don't know  :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2009, 04:34:12 AM »
David,

Have the pistons oversize to begin with.

Drill and tap the piston and screw in the rod until it is really tight, you could put a bit of loctite on it to help grip.

Remount the piston rod in the chuck, and using razor sharp HSS tooling, preferably with a nose radius, take the piston down to size in one cut. It might take a bit of playing about to get to the right size, use a bit of ali or brass first to get the cutter into the right position and then lock up your cross slide gib. If you try to take fine cuts on PTFE it will 'string' badly. Plus a lot of airbourne dust will be produced, which isn't good for you in large quantities.

So to step thru it.

Cut pistons to length, but oversized on diameter (you can wack off 1/2" in one cut). The larger the cut the better, less dust.

Drill and tap pistons and fit rods.

Using a bit of ali or brass, bring the cutter to give you size, and lock cutter in position when size is reached. Retry for size just in case cutter has moved during lock up. It shouldn't be a tight fit in the bore, just a nice sliding fit. You can't lap in a PTFE piston.

Mount up pistons using rod in the chuck.

Take one smooth cut to bring piston down to size.

Check for fit in bore.

Hope it works for you, and if you have any questions or complaints, I am on holiday for the next few months.

Bogs

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2009, 06:42:20 AM »
Darren, Bogs,

Some great ideas/ info there. Thanks very much!  :thumbup:

Will Loctite stick ok to PTFE?

I have no worries over the working temperature of Loctite, as my 3 exhaust pipes haven`t fallen off yet!

I`m more than a little pleased about that part of the experiment......  :clap:


Questions? Complaints! Whooo?....... ME!!!!???? Nah!

Ah`m no trubble to nubdy...... No need for a holiday neither.....  :thumbup:

Many thanks,
David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2009, 07:05:19 AM »
David there are special glues that will stick to PTFE, but most normal off the shelf type won't very well if at all.
I've no idea about locktite though.
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2009, 08:48:10 AM »
David there are special glues that will stick to PTFE, but most normal off the shelf type won't very well if at all.
I've no idea about locktite though.

Darren,

I like your idea of knurling the conrod.  :thumbup:

I`ll have a little experiment with loctite, this afternoon.......  :wave:

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2009, 12:04:01 PM »
David,

You have to look at the material you are using.

If you drill it, and force something into the hole, it deforms the material.

After time, the stresses in the joint will try to keep expanding the material. With something like ali or brass, that stress stays in the material and so doesn't allow the part to expand.

The reason for drilling and tapping is to prevent that internal stress build up, so you get no further expansion of the material.

You should find loctite will be plenty strong enough to hold the threaded joint.

John

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2009, 07:52:54 AM »
John,

You`re right, of course.  :thumbup:

Darren`s way was chosen cos` I have knurling ability, but no decent tap/ die combination.  ::)

Order for 1/8 whit. despatched to Arc this morning......... :wave:


The loctite experiment went ok......

The double drilled hole was a couple of thou undersize, probably soft material springing back.

I made the rod a sliding fit, & assembled with a spot of loctite.
After 6hrs it was a struggle to pull the rod out. 24hrs curing should be ok.  :thumbup:

All proceeding nicely.  :clap:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2009, 02:29:46 AM »
Yesterday saw the first run of a PTFE piston.

I have a Mamod SE2 single cylinder engine, ideal as a test bed.



It ran perfectly on air.  :thumbup:

STEAM was another story, the piston expanding to grip the brass cylinder......  ::)

After 3 trips to the lathe it finished up some 2thou or so undersize, very baggy when cold, but the engine ran very well!  :clap:



After running, everything was clean! No orrible steam cream to clean up!  :clap:



Very pleased.

Now to finish machining a set for the Triple......  :wave:



David D
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 03:28:04 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 03:44:53 AM »
Now you know what your running clearance should be David, you should have no further troubles.

You're now cookin' on gas, and the only wear you should get is on the pistons themselves. Don't forget to put a spot of lube on your pivot points.

Now you know the exact size, you can make a few spares, then when the time comes, shave the old one off with a stanley knife and stick a new one on.

John

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 03:51:00 AM »
Now you know what your running clearance should be David, you should have no further troubles.

You're now cookin' on gas, and the only wear you should get is on the pistons themselves. Don't forget to put a spot of lube on your pivot points.

Now you know the exact size, you can make a few spares, then when the time comes, shave the old one off with a stanley knife and stick a new one on.

John

My thoughts exactly, John!  :wave:

Thank you for your guidance......  :thumbup:

David.
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2009, 05:33:30 AM »
Well done David,  :clap:

Did the PTFE piston expand with steam or were you talking about the brass one?

So you pinned the piston then, that's good info to know  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2009, 05:49:05 AM »
Darren are you going to use PTFE pistons on your bogstandard engine ?

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2009, 06:08:51 AM »
I wasn't planning to, but I could....

Oh go on, make my life more complicated than it already is..... :bang:

Now I have a decision to make.... :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2009, 06:29:46 AM »
Go on then  :poke:

I'm trying to use you as a Ginney Pig for when I have a go at one of them Engines later in the year.  :D

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2009, 06:32:25 AM »
I see,

There are names for people like you  :lol: :lol: :lol:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2009, 08:03:21 AM »
Did the PTFE piston expand with steam or were you talking about the brass one?

So you pinned the piston then, that's good info to know  :thumbup:

Darren,

This plastic piston lark isn`t quite straightforward........  ::)

The engine ran perfectly at room temp, on air.

Steam heat expanded the piston, locking it solid, as far as the engine was concerned.  :scratch:

Piston into lathe, take off "half a thou" per side. Back onto engine....... Several times!

The lathe chuck is "true"....... But not that good, so the piston is not truly round now.

Tried a little `speriment this morning. Dunked a couple of cylinders & machined ptfe into a mug of boiling water.
Got it to slide in one cyl. But not in the other (which has a thinner cyl wall).

Measured o/d when cooled....... It`s only .001" or so below std (.3125")!!!  :bugeye:

I get different readings from mic & vernier. Also depends weather the sun`s shining or not.......  :bang:

I think I`ll have to steam individual piston/ cyl sets before mounting to the 3cyl engine......  :scratch:


The piston s are tapped 1/8 Whit & screwed onto the rod, with a spot of loctite.



David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2009, 08:13:19 AM »
David

One Little trick we use to do with nylon parts was to boil them, just like an egg, many plastics take up moisture and grow, I know that with nylon it can take up to about 1% of its own weight, don't know what it is for PTFE but you could try it before you machine to size.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2009, 12:18:17 PM »
David

One Little trick we use to do with nylon parts was to boil them, just like an egg, many plastics take up moisture and grow, I know that with nylon it can take up to about 1% of its own weight, don't know what it is for PTFE but you could try it before you machine to size.

Cheers

Stew

Sounds good to me Stew!  :clap:

I`ll try anything.......  :thumbup:

The used plastic piston measures around .309".
The boiling water plug measures around .312".

I guess steam is hotter than boiled water...... And it shows in the differing diameters!

David D

David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2009, 12:22:32 PM »
I did mention plastics absorb water, I didn't think it was that much though !
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2009, 12:50:41 PM »
So now you lads understand when I go on about the correct materials for making cylinders and pistons out of.

That is why I always ask if it is going to be run on just air or steam. It makes a very big difference.

Darren,

If you are going to make the twin engine for running on steam, I would stay with the recommended metals. David's engine is a lot different in design, and yours will have a lot more heat, friction and stresses involved. You could modify my design to use PTFE piston rings, but I don't think there would be any advantage over the standard o-rings.

John

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2009, 06:23:03 PM »
Thanks for the tip John, I will go with metal then  :thumbup:

I don't intend to run it on steam, but someone might when I'm gone  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2009, 08:14:00 PM »
Darren,

When you are gone, the least you will be worrying about is whether someone is going to be running your little engine on steam. Make it for yourself, no-one else. Unless of course you are thinking of taking it with you.

I was thinking about taking my mill and lathe with me, can you just imagine the Co-op pall bearers trying to move those, with my weight as well. :lol:

Mind you, I suppose I could get a few jobs doing furnace repairs, or maybe even a new set of gate hinges.


Bogs

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2009, 09:57:21 PM »
 :ddb:  :ddb: If I were going that way and taking my machines along I would make a coal stoker. To labor intensive shoveling all that coal.  :ddb:  :ddb:

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Bernd

P.S.  :offtopic:
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline cedge

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 327
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2009, 10:05:09 PM »
Bernd
I doubt John would require a stroker, where he's likely to wind up.... but topping off the
a bit of a tough job...(grin)

Steve

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2009, 08:40:03 AM »
Ah Steve one of us spelled "stoker" wrong.  :lol: :lol:

I had to go back and check my spelling. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2009, 02:24:35 AM »
I machined a piston to a sliding fit in one of the triple`s cylinders, then took off .001" per side.....

Assembled the assembly to the single cyl engine & steamed it to prove it worked ok.

After proving, each set was then assembled to the triple......  :thumbup:

Well, it all went perfectly........  :)

I lit the burner. After a few mins it just started, on it`s own! 

I throttled back to tickover & grabbed the camera.........



After a few minutes running it would tick over very sweetly......




After some time, it  STOPPED!!

The solder had melted on the regulator!  :shock:




I think the burner is a little too enthusiastic for tickover mode!

Now re soldered, with a heat shield fitted........



Will try out a smaller "tickover" burner, at Lincoln.

It`s all an experiment..........  :D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3530
  • Country: gb
  • Smile, Be Happy, Have Fun and Rock Until you Drop
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2009, 02:50:55 AM »
That was excellent David:-

Great Job,

Great Video,

Great Tomato Plants
 
:clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Unfortunately I'll miss it at Lincoln we hit the plastic hard last week in Edinburgh and the bills just landed 

                                                                                                                                                  :jaw:


So enjoy the rabbit pie at Browns

and I'll look forward to meeting you at Arrogate


Stew



A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2009, 03:24:14 AM »
Thanks for that Stew.

This engine just keeps on developing.......  :wave:


A pity we`ll not meet at Lincoln, it should be a great get together.

Some of the "all weekend" members have set off, already!

Hope to see you at Harrogate.  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

  • Guest
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2009, 03:43:26 AM »
Very nice indeed David, it ticks over like a swiss watch.

You've just got to wait now to see how the pistons stand up to real extended running. I shouldn't think you will have any trouble.

John

Offline Darren

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • N/Wales
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2009, 04:29:45 AM »
You're not wrong there David...

That is sweet, those pistons will last a lifetime or two I guess.... :clap:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Bernd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
  • 1915 C Cab
    • Kingstone Model Works
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2009, 08:42:03 AM »
Sweet running and sounding engine at tick over there David.  :thumbup:

Full throttle sounds like a race car. I wouldn't have thought it would run that fast. Pretty vibration free too from what I saw.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline SPiN Racing

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Stainless Oscillating Pistons?
« Reply #66 on: May 06, 2009, 10:20:20 PM »
Wow very very cool engine.
The sound ot the three humming away is really a nice tone at full song.  :headbang:
SPiN Racing