Author Topic: compound marine engine  (Read 12189 times)

Offline tom osselton

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compound marine engine
« on: July 05, 2014, 06:17:13 AM »
Well I think I finally have all the tooling I need to start on my dad's engine he was one to design anything and this seems to be one of them he wanted to putt around the inner harbour in Victoria (bc) after putting in 34 years at the dnd dockyard.

 He made his own patterns and had the cylinders cast in Victoria, that is as far as he got. But i do have his drawings and some measurements so here goes!

1-1/2" &  3" cylinders



So far I have cut up some 5" cast iron I bought last year along with some 1" cast plate for the chests dad had.



I have started to clean up the pillars they were cast in playsand and were quite rough, my first cast job since grade 8 (I'm 61 now) that I made last year ... I think the sand was too wet or not packed good enough.



The pillars look like the ones on a triple expansion I saw on utube. because of their slant I will have to start by machining the base and the matching lower face that will give me a reference point to keep the conrod slide at the same distance from the 9/16 piston rod and also for the bushings for the reversing through rod.

One question (probably of many) is where to get some cast iron steam rings hopefully closer to home (Canada) and is cast rings a good choice? I'm picking them because of the expansion rate the pistons will be cast iron too.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:29:18 AM by tom osselton »

Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2014, 10:43:42 AM »
NICE!  :thumbup:

I know I've read in several places about how to turn CI rings from the solid, but maybe you want to buy them to make things simpler. Maybe others know of sources.

If you want to turn them, I could search through my stuff to find the info.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 05:38:27 AM »
Thanks vtsteam for now I will try to source some out but if push comes to shove I'll give making some a shot or maybe i'm barking up the wrong tree and there is a better material for cast iron cylinders as it won't be run on a daily basis, I also should see what kinds of gland material there is out there before making the lower covers.

I did not get too much done today I finished a part for the eureka gear cutter and set up one of the pillars in the mill ready for tomorow my son is coming over to use the lathe so it should be fun he's a second year apprentice so I'll see if he shakes his head.  :D

this is the best way I could think of to set it up:
 A square was held against the base setting the angle while tightening the vise.
 A level was placed on the mill and the risers for the slide they were real close.
 Using two height clamps on the square I set them for the high and low on the ends of the pillar to setup the second one.



I'm hoping this will be able to have some degree of acuracy it squares both ends and keep the slide square I will record the dro readings for the other pillars mainly for height.

This is the only complete drawing dad left us of what it should resemble when finished except for the cast pillars on the front.


Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 11:12:15 AM »
Tom I looked up a few things in the books I have this morning. According to Steve Chastain, steam rings were often cast in the form of a flanged pipe and parted off from it. The flange was used to mount the raw casting on the face plate.

According to Henry Greenlee, both cast iron and steel rings were used with cast iron steam cylinders on other than small models (which used multiple simple grooves without rings, or felt packing). Cast iron being preferred.

He mentions turning the rings 1 to 1.25 % larger in OD than the bore, and cutting the rings "at the thinnest part" diagonally (in profile view) with a "knife-edged file from the inside".

I have read somewhere else -- no longer remember the source -- that rings were sometimes broken in preference to being cut. I don't remember how this was done.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 07:06:35 AM »
I have inquired at Stewart turner and heard back from them today they have the rings but not the overlaping type theirs butt together so I'm not sure about the gap leaking pressure so I'll email him back, anyways I am still looking.

i did get some more done on the pillars with only one little mishap the cutter I was using decided to screw itself lower it's not the sharpest of tools (on the side that was not that visible of course)  :doh: but have done two more with no problems.



I have also started to face off the cylinder heads so there is progress being made although dad's drawings show the top covers going into the chamber almost to the bottom of the steam inlet going deeper than the machined step as the drawing shows.


Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 05:44:54 AM »
I have heard back from stewart turner and they can give me the rings for about $100 dollars so that is the route I will go. The ends butt together and they say it needs .002 thou for expansion and if I stager the rings it should be ok. I could make some as there is a number of video's on utube but would like to see first hand what kind of fit it takes (it's a new experience thing) and I would hate to damage the cylinder with too much pressure.

The pillars are coming along and as said above I am working on the top plate although I can say cast is messy stuff!

 


I have recieved a bundle of joy from ebay!
Its made by Weldon 1-1/4 bore, spring loaded rock-in,  overall length 16" I got it for $213.00 so another project!  :doh:





I've also done a little 3d printing some mill table locks and a holder for my poor boy's coolant filter I'm trying. I'm using a aquarium pump that can only raise the fluid about 1-2 feet.




Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2014, 09:51:59 AM »
What's the long device? I think I saw something like that once -- for sharpening milling cutters?
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 10:26:46 AM »
Yes it is for sharpening mill bits it has air bearings and I will have to pick up some weldon collets and make a slide for it and a means to rock it. So I'm hoping to save some coin with it I just bought two carbide 1/2"  one roughing the other regular $76.00 I'll have to do a video of my little shop.

It is like Stew's http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9613.0.html

Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 08:04:32 AM »
Iv'e done a bit more on the cylinder covers but still have to machine the lip on them thats why they are sitting high. I have to pick up some studs and will probably do that tomorow. I haven't checked out gland material yet so I will wait till I get some before starting the lower covers because it's size is unknown in the meantime I will get going on the steam chests. One thing I'm glad I have is a magnetic broom it works great with cast iron!



I covered the ways with cardboard seeing as it did not have to travel any great distance I just fit it and duct taped the joints.


Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 06:32:38 AM »
We had to replace a stripped locking bolt on the compound slide my son turned it but we didnít have  a holder for the die they were stolen a few years ago but the idiot(s) didnít take the dies go figure, so I picked up these two at the local used tool shop the smaller one was just under 1-1\2Ē so I had to bore it out a little (and yes they are split dies).





I have machined the steam chests to size and my son and I faced them on the shaper this is the first project we have used it on and were quite happy with the outcome it could have been a little smoother surface if we used a wider tool I think but wonít take long to lap.






And here are the chests ready to be marked and drilled that is 9/16 drillrod for the pistons on the right and I have found what I belive is some gland material.






So now I can look forward to drilling and tapping Iím thinking 8 on the 4-ĹĒ cap and 6 on the 2-ĹĒ cap with some 5/16Ē studs, for the chests Iíll use ľĒ studs.

Iím getting closer to needing some brass parts so I finished making my tongs and we will give casting brass a go.



Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 08:55:56 AM »
A lot of firsts for you here, Tom., must be really exciting to be doing this project. Especially together with your son!  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline doubleboost

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 02:12:21 PM »
That well be a very nice engine
I would keep away from casting brass it can be nasty stuff (zink fumes) :jaw:
Bronze is a much better metal to melt
John

Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2014, 06:32:54 PM »
I havenít posted in a bit I've been getting my bike ready for sale.



 Yes it is always nice to have my son helping mind you we have always had a good relationship more like friends.
Well I have been drilling and tapping holes (24 more to tap on the steam chests) using the drill press to keep the tap square. I have gone around looking for ľĒ studs for the steam chests but they either had to be ordered in or came in batches of 100 for $178.00 so I made my own on the lathe using fine/coarse dies which did not take that long.



I have also made a fan shroud for my mill after having 2 motors go the way of the Dodo  :Doh: pushing air into the cover. They both melted the rear brush into the cap making removal impossible unless you shear the tangs off as seen in the pic so I cut out two round shims for this motor to fit between the two that should solve this problem.





Adrian came over Sunday and we gave brass a try turned out to be a bit of a shite show but still was a test to see if my furnace would melt it I was wondering if my blower would push enough air.
 Iím using sandbox sand so it isnít the best we had trouble with the mold coming out clean as the patterns were made in haste I think that the sand was actually adhering to the paint but we used them anyways. We melted scrap plumbing and soon had a a6 crucible filled (sorry no picís) and went to skim it, well my skimmer was to big for the crucible lesson learned plan ahead but it poured nice although I will have to make a pouring tong instead of using the lifting tongs. All in all it went not that bad I just would have liked the molds to be better. (we only used Ĺ of the flask so no riserís were used)  :beer:





Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 07:10:39 AM »
I've got a bit further the drilling and tapping is finally done!




 I was a little worried about getting the chests square so I tapped them on the mill by hand. I was thinking the other day about a ring that would fit on the drill chuck using the three adjustment spots to turn the chuck something like this:



It worked quite nice!  :D 
Thats as far as I have got this week I'm going to have to get some good casts done soon here is something I am experimenting with http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9962.0.html

 I can machine the lower caps and do some more work on the pillars so I'm not stumped yet.
I haven't ordered the rings yet as I am going on holidays soon it wouldn't work out with the mail.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2014, 08:07:39 AM »
Hmmm maybe I won't switch the drill press over to a keyless chuck, like I did the mill after all..... :thumbup:

The engine is looking really good, Tom.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline mattinker

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2014, 10:35:24 AM »
I think that the sand was actually adhering to the paint but we used them anyways.

That's what the parting dust is there for!

Regards, Matthew

Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2014, 04:00:31 AM »
Well I am back from holidays and have picked up some new sand that my son told me about (Golden sand ) it is quite fine, it almost feels like velvet in the hand and puts playsand to shame it is supposedly used for mortar work and was told it is more expensive so with a sigh I paid them their 8 bucks for a measly 200 lbs  :) it was then mixed by hand with 12 lbs of bentonite per 100 lbs of sand  no water was needed the sand had enough moisture in it.

I have made up two new cope and dragís and find the new sand rams up real nice but am concerned about porosity so I will make sure it has some vents popped through with a tig rod I have used 1/4" bolts as pegs so if I have to snug the two halves together I can use a nut to do so, the pattern you see was made by my father.



The molds packed really well!


I have never used a well so I tried it on one of the mold's 


It seems that the well sucks more from the risers during cooling mind you it has more metal to cool.


And here they are finally a casting I can grin about I didn't like the first set but it was the best I had so these will replace the old ones. 


One thing I noticed is the vent holes did not fill very much maybe next time I will use a larger rod.

Thats it for now  :beer:

Offline awemawson

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 04:58:56 AM »
Looking very good Tom  :thumbup:

Did you see my tip in NormanV's thread re: his vice, about using a bean can with both ends removed, rammed up with sand, and a hole cut with a tube to extend the height of risers and pouring basins? Works a treat. Form a funnel shape in the one used as a pouring basin.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2014, 11:23:36 AM »
Really pretty castings, Tom!  :clap: :clap: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2014, 03:43:22 PM »
Thanks I am really happy with them I pushed the vent rod through about every 2 inches which I think helped but knowing a good casting was obtained helps boost the confidence looking to future cast's, one thing I will have to look into is a better pair of gloves I'm using welders gloves right now.

 Andrew I did see your post about the use of cans to extend the risers I have some beer cans but  nothing really bigger than that so I guess it will be weiner's and bean's for a couple nights!

Offline doubleboost

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2014, 05:29:58 PM »
Nice clean solid looking castings
John

Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2014, 05:47:00 AM »
I have done a bit more casting with the yellow brass this time it went much better, and I also made a proper pouring holder for the crucible. It seems the second time there isn't as much panic!  :scratch: Although I did picked up a spoon type ladle from the dollar store for the dross it lasted about 4 dip's. :Doh: so I'll have to find a cast iron one or weld something up thats thicker.

I made two castings but carved out the gating fairly wide more than I really needed but I figured each piece needed a passage. The one on the left has two risers one on each end with a central sprue for pouring I think this may have pushed any loose sand towards the risers. The gating and risers weighed more than the castind did! :palm:

 

Here is one getting faced off.


The castings so far have not shown any real signs of blowholes or any other abnormalities.


I'm quite happy with how it turned our and had no problems with the zink fumes but I'm still looking around for a air system and some foundery gloves to take the heat.





Offline krv3000

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 05:31:59 PM »
thats cuming a long nice

Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 07:40:50 PM »
Great work!  :clap: :clap: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2014, 06:21:13 PM »
just a quick update I ordered the piston rings and gland material from Stuart turner, they say it was shipped sept 3 via the post office almost 5  :palm: weeks now! I'm saying this hoping there is a packet in the box! Geordies do know about airplanes and how they are faster than a slow boat to china?  :D

Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2014, 03:15:40 PM »
Well I contacted Stewart Turner monday and they are resending my order so hopefully this time it will get through ok.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2014, 09:00:21 PM »
Wow, that has been a long time! :bang:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: compound marine engine
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2014, 11:32:37 PM »
Well the replacement order came yesterday,  the rings look good but the graphite yarn isn't that thick!  either way I''ll be able to do a fair bit more to the engine!  :D