Bally Power Cuts !

[awemawson]

Being quite rural we are on overhead line supply, and power cuts are not that uncommon.

Yesterday was a nightmare. Power would go off - flicker on a couple of times as the automatic re-closer tried to re-connect, then go off for a period. When it came back on, I'd leave it for quite a long period to be sure we were stable, then go the rounds re-starting PC's, resetting timers etc. Worse bit is the front gate which is electric powered. Had to manually over-ride it, but if the power comes back on the manual over-ride has just dropped a dog clutch, so the motor is turning trying to close the gate.

I have a small generator, as our sewage plant needs power, and ALL water used on the place goes through it - so if power is off for more than a few loo flushes I have to start it to pump out the treated effluent or it over-flows 

We went through this sequence SIX times yesterday - infact after the fifth, it came back on and I started typing this whinge, and it went off again as I typed 

A few things come out of this:

a/ I must replace the three timers for lights and pumps with ones that don't loose their settings when the power goes off

b/ I must consider UPS's for the PC's, though they are distributed over three buildings

c/ I must investigate a bigger automatic change-over generator that will power the lot. (Cottages power is sourced from our house supply)


We have a pair of holiday cottages on site, and when people are on holiday you can't really tell them to cross their legs for extended periods, and oh by the way you are locked in as the gate doesn't work 

[John Rudd]

Well sorry to hear of your misfortune, but it does highlight one fact ......

You got a lot of work ahead of you to aid coping with power outages

Good luck with it all...

[chipenter]

It's not just you we only had one yesterday but Friday there was five , no sooner set the clocks and the microwave than anouther hit round we go again .

[S. Heslop]

Any hope with solar panels/ wind turbines/ water wheels/ other 'off the grid' stuff?

Not so sure about saving the planet, or saving money, but it always looked like fun stuff to play around with.

[awemawson]

I'm kicking myself Simon that a few years ago I didn't go ahead with a large solar array on my barn roof. It has a roughly south facing aspect at about the right pitch. 40 odd foot long by probably 25 or so on the slope. It would have been a good investment as the feed in tariff at the time was high, but I needed the capital for use elsewhere 

[chipenter]

I use 10 what solar panels to help charge the batterys for my 24v South Bend , they have doubled the time between charges .

[awemawson]

I have a 12 watt panel sitting on the lid of my infrequently used 'road drill' air compressor to keep the battery topped up and it works a charm - first one got knocked off by the cat and didn't survive the drop onto concrete. I have to remember to remove it when I start the engine (big diesel) or the vibration will knock the second one off !

Just ordered three time switches:

http://www.discount-electrical.co.uk/product.php/396116051/timeguard-ntt04-white-24hr-7day-compact-digital-socket-box-time-controller-with-1---2hr-boost--1-minute-switching---28-on---off-programs-16a

720 hour battery back up, automatic Summer / Winter time change over and a fairly simple programming sequence

Amazing variation in price between sellers - that one was the cheapest inc VAT and post I could find

[vtsteam]

I feel your pain Andrew -- and that must be rough being responsible for holiday tenants in that situation. I'm sure you'll come up with some improvement.

When I lived on my houseboat twenty years ago, I had a Heart Interface inverter that charged the batteries at dock, and it had an automatic transfer switch that instantly kicked in ships power as soon as the connection was cut. So when there were power outtages around me in the evening, I'd hear a click, and the slight hum of the inverter, and not even a flicker of the lights. Stereo still working. Computer unfazed. Looking out the ports, I could see the neighborhood blacked out. This happened quite a few times in rural Florida where I spent a few years. Nothing like an independent backup power source!

Now I have to start the generator, and that can be a pain in the middle of the night in mid winter.

I've still got the inverter and would love to hook it up to at least one house circuit, but it cuts out now, and I don't have the electronic know how to fix it.

[awemawson]

Steve or some other moderator: this thread is in the wrong box, I must have had a brain f**t - can you move it please !


Well some progress:

Today I replaced three non preserved timers with ones with a 720 hour back up, so that's three less things to re-set after a power cut.

Also I took delivery of an APC Smart 750 UPS and started integrating it with my HP DC6700 pc and Windows 7. Got it to the stage that they talk via usb, and if the UPS is unplugged it supports the PC for a few minutes then shuts it down. Then I remembered a feature this pc has exhibited for some time - it turns itself back on  Tried and failed before to solve it.

Several things in a modern PC can kick it off - the network card for instance can start the PC if it sees activity. However everything was disabled and battened down. I re-set the bios to factory defaults - even changed the power supply for one from a PC I know doesn't do this. No avail.

A bit of googling found a chap with the same issue, solved by pressing a reset cmos button next to the cmos battery on this same model - blast no button 

So I reasoned - remove the cmos battery, short out the battery holder contacts to discharge any on board capacitors and it should do the same as the button. Sure did  I restored the factory cmos defaults and the system now happily stays shut down when it's been told to - phew !!!

Well - almost phew. Now part way through restarting first time, it shuts down again  Second re-start is ok. Need to do more investigation, but AVG has just started auto update and we are going out, so I'll save this investigation for later.

[NormanV]

It should be a doddle for you after your CNC mill epic!

[awemawson]

Thanks Spud for moving the topic - I must have been having hissy putting it where I did!

OK it seems at the moment the UPS throws a wobbly almost exactly 2 1/2 minutes after it gets power back. Leave it to get past it's seizure before rebooting the pc and everything is fine. Must be a setting somewhere as it's too repeatable to be a fault in the normal sense of the word.
 

[spuddevans]

Thanks Spud for moving the topic - I must have been having hissy putting it where I did!

No problem

OK it seems at the moment the UPS throws a wobbly almost exactly 2 1/2 minutes after it gets power back. Leave it to get past it's seizure before rebooting the pc and everything is fine. Must be a setting somewhere as it's too repeatable to be a fault in the normal sense of the word.

It's funny you say that, but when I first switch on my CNC PC, it will interrupt and reset the CNC drivers. I think it interrupts the "Heartbeat" signal sent out the parallel port, but it does it without putting Mach3 into "reset" mode, so I think it is something in the hardware level. The reason for mentioning it is that it occurs about the same timing as you describe (although I have never timed it)

I've just learned to put the PC on as soon as I get into the workshop, then by the time I want to use the Mill it will be past the point where this occurs.

Perhaps there may be a common cause to both yours and my problems, perhaps some "self test" that either the PC hardware or the operating system makes shortly after booting that messes with your UPS (and my CNC driver)


Tim

[Pete W.]

Hi there, Andrew,

Thank you for your account of that session of computer diagnosis and repair/reconfiguration, a useful contribution to the 'Group' knowledge!       
All duly noted.

We have a saying in this household: 'computers are fun, FUN, FUN'!  Usually voiced while simulating tearing of hair!          

If you think the power outages (aka CUTS) are bad now, just wait until 'they' get to phase two of smart meter introduction! 

[awemawson]

So a bit more progress -  I videoed the UPS lights as it went through its wobbly stage for the benefit of the vendor, who is equally puzzled. I have installed a second identical UPS on my workshop PC with as far as I can tell an identical configuration, as it throws the same hissy fit 

This tells me it's either a setup / configuration issue or a feature. It's not a show stopper, as all I have to do is not re-start the PC for several minutes after a power outage, and usually this would be the case anyway

Here is an EXTREMELY boring video:

[pete3000]

looks like its a config. the manual is here http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z8LC7/ASTE-6Z8LC7_R0_EN.pdf
 the 2nd paragraph under shutdown mode.... the display scroll if the ups is ordered to shutdown by the PC to preserve UPS batt capacity.

We normally run our UPS's the other way round, i.e shutdown once ups has only 10-20% batt remaining. Which keeps systems up as long as poss for short outages. this is done from powerchute software.

Of course the usual caveat is that you can't then have output from UPS to turn the systems back on until you have 10-20% charge back in the batteries.

We have our computer Bios set to after power failure = power on. (meaning as soon as we have 20% the systems come back up.)

HTH
Pete

[awemawson]

Hi Pete - I'm sure that the PC is not instructing the UPS to power down, as at the point that the hissy fit occurs, the PC is fully down, not running and has no power!

However I suspect that as the UPS is programmed to reboot as soon as power is returned, this feature is actually happening 2 minutes after power is back on - perhaps APC's interpretation of immediate varies from mine !

My requirement is to shut the PCs down gracefully rather than to keep them running through a power cut, so I think that it is probably best to leave the config as it is, and work round the issue by not bringing the PCs back on line for several minutes after power is restored, which is no great hardship.

[chipenter]

At least you have a PC still running Monday we had a power cut , and the PC wouldnt start after the power came back on , power supply fried also took out the hard drive and floppy , only half my data backed up  but now I have a one tereabit drive I have no way of backing that up iff it's full , agro I could have done without .

[awemawson]

Well at long last I have been able to source a generator that meets my specification in price and 'solidness' !

It's based on a 3 cylinder Lister ST03 diesel engine driving an alternator rated at 12.5 kVA as a base load. Many of the modern import generators are useless for long running, and although this hopefully will only ever occasionally run for a day or so it should do it reliably.

It has been a stand by set in Council offices and probably has only run for regular test runs, showing 100 hours on the meter.

Our absolute top load limited by the 100 amp company fuses is 25 kW so 12.5 will amply cover virtually anything running, including our 'cottage guests' using their hobs, ovens, kettles etc !!!

[awemawson]

I think that the engine dates from the mid to late 1980's - it may or may not have been new when Puma incorporated into a generating set - it's obviously been re-painted looking at the engine plate.

Not physically seen it yet - just been arranging for it's collection by a pallet company. The good thing is that it comes with a brand new auto change-over starter panel

[awemawson]

It's fairly doubtful that I'll have it installed and up and running this winter. I need to construct some sort of weatherproof housing for it close enough to our main power connection, and also fabricate a fuel tank. The design of the housing is a bit limited as it will be in a pretty visible place. I suppose that I could locate the main change over relay close to the company meter in a wall housing, and drive it remotely, so I could tuck the generator out of sight. That at least reduces the run of heavy duty cable (25 or maybe 35 mm csa) to one pair as it is stupidly expensive 

[AdeV]

That's a very nice looking genset, colour me jealous... I still haven't sorted out my CS-based backup unit yet (one day, one day)...

BTW, if you're interested, I think I have that same model UPS, the plastic front panel is damaged and the batteries are toast. If you like, I'll send it to you FOC (sans batteries obviously, they're useless).

I upgraded to a massive APC unit I got at a bargain price - brand new, but it got dropped on delivery & smashed all the plastic front panel up. The vendor didn't dare power it up - I just plugged it in & got on with it, it's a 3000AH unit, so I can boil my kettle with it for over an hour!

[AdeV]

PS: Engine is 1982 - add 50 to the first 2 digits to get the year; next set of digits are the engine no, then the type (ST3), rotation (C is probably clockwise, vs A for anticlock BUT... it could be C=counterclockwise and blank = clockwise... the dating page doesn't elaborate). The trailing 03 is the build number. Again, what this is is not specified...

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

[mattinker]

rotation (C is probably clockwise, vs A for anticlock BUT... it could be C=counterclockwise and blank = clockwise... the dating page doesn't elaborate).

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

I may be wrong, but I thought that Lister was British, anticlockwise is a US term, so I would imagine that it is anti-clock and clockwise!

Regards, Matthew./

[awemawson]

Ade - a very kind offer thanks

Matt , when I used to work on large American disk drives they used 'CW - clockwise' and 'CCW - counter clockwise' but Google tells me that Lister, who are / were British, used Z as the anti clockwise indicator.

[mattinker]

rotation (C is probably clockwise, vs A for anticlock BUT... it could be C=counterclockwise and blank = clockwise... the dating page doesn't elaborate).

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/EngineDating/Dating6.htm

I may be wrong, but I thought that Lister was British, anticlockwise is a US term, so I would imagine that it is anti-clock and clockwise!

Regards, Matthew./

My slip, I wrote it the wrong way, counter clockwise being the US term! Lister use "Z" strangr!

Regards, Matthew