MadModder

The Shop => Finishing => Topic started by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 12:48:02 AM

Title: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 12:48:02 AM

I have a need to finish smaller parts. I've been looking around for info on this type of process, and have found bits and pieces of information, lots of different "mixtures", and time of process.

I'm going to log my go at some of these different ways, products, time frames, to see what kind of results I can get.

I'm going to start off with these different tumblers for different stages of the process.
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/s7_212867_999_01.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/35-p-with-red-barrel.jpg)

The different mediums to play around with
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/s7_210575_999_01.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/s7_210576_999_02.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/004-29.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/005-26.jpg)

Some of the different Mixing products
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/007-15.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/s7_216555_999_02.jpg)

And of course, how longs it gonna take in each process
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/006-20.jpg)

If anyone has a "secret recipe", let me know. I would like to try it. :smart:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 01:29:12 AM
Kenneth,

Thanks for posting. I want to try some Wet tumbling on some different kinds of metals is why I opp for the rotary as well as the vibratory tumbler, and maybe would work for some larger pieces that wouldn't fit in the vibatory.

If nothing else........My real job is running a rock crushing plant, so I always could bring home some rocks, and throw in to polish. The kiddos would get a kick out of that.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 01:34:36 AM
BTW.........Nice CLock Man! :headbang:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Bogstandard on February 03, 2011, 02:19:16 AM
Matt,

Having followed your thinking and process for a while now, great pics you sent me BTW, and understand that maybe fairly soon you could get yourself into a situation where you won't have time enough to do everything yourself. Tumbling products can be a very time consuming exercise.

A few years ago, I was looking at setting up a small tumbling process in a factory I was trying to get the processes straightened up in. Eventually, we only installed one vibratory unit, that could be left running almost permanently day and night, it is a very slow process. The rest was sent for outside processing.

To cut a long story short. Search out a business that does it for a living, preferably local. They have the expertise to get whatever finish you require on whatever materials you need to use. I found that they were much cheaper than trying to do processes in house, as they are set up with all the machines and mediums you could ever need, especially where a one man band like yourself is concerned, where eventually, when your business takes off, you won't have the time to do everything yourself.

I know it is good to do it yourself at this time, experimenting and enjoying what you are doing, but in the long run, look to take a bit of the pressure off yourself, as later, your time will become a very important commodity that will be in short supply. Look to get processes into position now, rather than later, so when the time does come, you will know exactly where to go, and can be set up very quickly.


John
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 02:41:31 AM
Thanks Bogs,

I have done that with the "Machining End" Checked around from different local production shops, incase this does take off. I got their prices, and built that into my bundle price that I'm taking to meet with the distubtor of my product. If their interested in my product, I will wash my hands of that whole deal, and let someone else sweat over my totorances. The "one off" stuff, is what I really want to do in my shop. Where I'm working right with the end user, to modify what ever they need for their own speical needs. Basicly this is going to be more for my personal shop, and not set for high production.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: picclock on February 03, 2011, 02:57:15 AM
@1hand

I'll be very interested in the results you obtain from the different methods. Are you going to produce a set of identical parts in different materials then process them by the different methods for comparison ?

types of metal x types of abrasive x vibratory method x [time]

How are you going to interpret the results ? Do you have a machine for measuring roughness or is it an eyeball it and score job.

It's a lot of work, but the results produced will be well worth it. Even if the results are partial, that is not all combinations tried, it would still give give a useful guide and pointers to the best combinations likely to succeed.

Good luck in your endevour, and thanks for sharing with the community.

Best Regards

picclock



 

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 03:27:33 AM
@1hand

I'll be very interested in the results you obtain from the different methods. Are you going to produce a set of identical parts in different materials then process them by the different methods for comparison ?

types of metal x types of abrasive x vibratory method x [time]

How are you going to interpret the results ? Do you have a machine for measuring roughness or is it an eyeball it and score job.

It's a lot of work, but the results produced will be well worth it. Even if the results are partial, that is not all combinations tried, it would still give give a useful guide and pointers to the best combinations likely to succeed.

Good luck in your endevour, and thanks for sharing with the community.

Best Regards

picclock

Thanks for the encouragement! I plan on doing just as you stated, for it will be trial and error. I'm just looking for the visual differances. Mainly I looking for a good base line, for different Metals, "Method, Media, and Time".

Like Bogs said its a timely process. I geussing some could take up to 4 or 5 days to complete, but It will only take a few minutes each day to switch Media or Method, and your free to do what you wish with your time inbetween. :coffee: Instead of where in the hell did that part go, as the buffer wheel ripped it from your hand. :scratch:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Jonny on February 03, 2011, 11:06:03 AM
Wish i could have found this lot out 4 years ago, i had a right ball ache of a job to do. Parts too small to hold and heat builds up quick mop polishing often too late when you feel it.
Over here theres not much info or even places to buy different media to even try. Have a butchers on lapidary mainly for the odd diy rock.

Subbing out very expensive and was going to have made and import a vibratory tumbler from US with interchangeable bowls for different media. Carriage on the media way too expensive for smallish quantities from US, likewise ripped off in UK for having to buy several of each in small quantities.

Meister yours doesnt show much if at all any edges rounding off, is that due to only using the finish rather than go through the grades?
Also does it open up threaded holes?

Hate mop polishing, just had a job go missing on route to CA, took me months to psyche myself up last time but part jewelled it.

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 03, 2011, 11:09:51 AM
I too shall be watching for your results. I use a simple rotary tumbler with steel BB's for de-burring small pieces (AL, Brass)  Does a nice job in smoothing the sharp edges off in a uniform manner. Much better than by hand.

Good luck in your endeavour, as I sit here reaching for my cup of coffee, I wonder just how that would happen without the fingers I take for granted being always attached to the end of my arm.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 11:53:00 AM
I too shall be watching for your results. I use a simple rotary tumbler with steel BB's for de-burring small pieces (AL, Brass)  Does a nice job in smoothing the sharp edges off in a uniform manner. Much better than by hand.

Good luck in your endeavour, as I sit here reaching for my cup of coffee, I wonder just how that would happen without the fingers I take for granted being always attached to the end of my arm.

Robert

Not much of a coffee drinker, but you just make do! :ddb:
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/172-06601B1.jpg)

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 03, 2011, 12:28:04 PM

Not much of a coffee drinker, but you just make do! :ddb:
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/172-06601B1.jpg)

Matt

I can see it now, no officer, I wasnt . . .

Glad I didn't wonder bout the 1 up 1 down and 1 for polish  :coffee:

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 08:28:36 PM
   Notice the spacing on the parts the way they are set in.  The parts will follow a torus shape as they "march" around the bowl and will not rattle against each other leaving good edges.  Instead they follow spaced a little bit just like little soldiers and they all come out with crips edges.


That would also mean you would want to stick with same size and shaped parts in the same batch also?
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 03, 2011, 08:58:12 PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3012198/Deburring-Metal-Finishing-Information-Booklet

Easy to read info on the subject, gives comments on the types of tumblers and usage. Seems that the ratio of media to part load has a lot to do with part collisions.  Rotary tumbler gives better edge radius while the vibratory type gives a better finish, least that's what I got from it so far.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 03, 2011, 09:56:49 PM
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3012198/Deburring-Metal-Finishing-Information-Booklet

Easy to read info on the subject, gives comments on the types of tumblers and usage. Seems that the ratio of media to part load has a lot to do with part collisions.  Rotary tumbler gives better edge radius while the vibratory type gives a better finish, least that's what I got from it so far.

Robert

The part on Compounds is interesting.

"I find that the problem is the compound. They’re either not using the right kind (substituting simple green, etc.) or not using the compound correctly"

There goes that Idea :doh:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 03, 2011, 10:50:02 PM


The part on Compounds is interesting.

"I find that the problem is the compound. They’re either not using the right kind (substituting simple green, etc.) or not using the compound correctly"

There goes that Idea :doh:

Matt

 :bang:  I usually read all I can on a subject till information overload occurs, still wondering why Spot is running, oh ya back to subject, then its just grab some stuff and give it a try.

So ya make up some coupons, toss em in the machine and see what happens. As mentioned earlier, taking items to a PRO shop might be the way to go in the end, the hobby aspect demands some trial and error.

I like the walnut shell with green rouge as a final step presented. Finish looks good, its the in-between that is awaiting your documented outcome. I'm still at the steel BB's for debur stage.

Robert


 :bang:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Bogstandard on February 04, 2011, 01:43:25 AM
What you really need Matt is one product that gives the right finish every time.

Maybe this one will do all the jobs you have in mind.


(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/polish.jpg)

 :lol: :lol:


John
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 04, 2011, 05:53:52 PM
Bogs, that a one step polish?

Well I have enough stuff to get started.

These are the scrap pieces for trial #1
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/003-35.jpg)

I'm starting off with a deburring in the Rotary tumbler.

This batch consists of

8 cups of 3/8" Course Ceramic Media
4 cups of water
1 oz of Simple Green
1 oz of Nu Finish
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/004-30.jpg)


All in a 1gal jug
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/005-27.jpg)


And on the rollers
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/006-21.jpg)


I haven't decided how long I'm going to let this first stage go. I'm going to check them in 3hours.
Matt

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 04, 2011, 08:25:12 PM
Ya its really tough to depict to results to you guys with the camara I got. I guess in the end, If you can see the camara in the reflection of the part, it was a success :beer:


Any pointers on taking better pics?
 :worthless:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 04, 2011, 09:09:14 PM
This first test, I want to see how different shape/size parts work together. Some one say building a model engine, would only have 1 or 2 same shape part at a time, but would have a batch of parts of the same material.

Before
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/003-35.jpg)

After 3hours in first mixture.
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/007-16.jpg)
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/008-13.jpg)

I'm happy with the results. Saw burrs are gone, corners are intact, and the have a very nice gun metal finish


Now for the second mixture

I'll use the same amount of media, but a medium ceramic
only 2 cups of water this time
3 oz of the nu finish
1 oz of simple green

I'm think 3 more hours

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 04, 2011, 09:13:29 PM
  I've got a friend who lives up at the top of Camano Isl

Not the Green Island Manor place?  

Think 1Hand is Medford WI


Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 04, 2011, 09:25:43 PM


I'm happy with the results. Saw burrs are gone, corners are intact, and the have a very nice gun metal finish

Matt

Looks nice, edges look evenly radius'd. Tomorrow Ill find a nice sharp edged piece and stick it in the rotary for a bit. Will be just using steel BB's as the debur agent.

Awaiting the package of various grits to arrive so I can occupy some time doing that Important Guy Stuff.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 04, 2011, 09:41:28 PM
Yup, a Chesse Head I Am.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 01:05:09 AM
3 hours in the second mixture, and results are about the same with a smoother finish. Still a dull gun metal color.

My pic wouldn't show the difference, but there is a difference to touch thats noticable.

I exchanged the Medium ceramic to a fine. I now filled the barrel 3/4 full with media. Fuller than with the last too batches. I filled with water til I could just see it in the media. About 4oz of the nu finish, and 2oz of the simple green. This will be the last rotary step in this trial. I will leave this one run for 8hrs while I take a nap.

Next I will take them to the vibratory tumbler, and start out with a red rouge and nut shells for 8hrs.

The last step I'll try in the Vibratory will be with corn media with the green rouge and a dash of liquid brass polish for 10 plus hrs.

I read if you put strips of fabric dryer sheets in with dry media, it helps cut the dust. :scratch:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 05, 2011, 02:38:43 AM
So far so good for ya. Are you happy with the edge detail so far? or does the polish wheel still have its appeal? Wonder if its the soap that imparting the color


I put a rough piece of brass about 1 inch in dia in a rotary tumbler with 1/2 cup steel BB's (Daisy) dry. Piece started with edges that would (did) cut my finger. Let it run for an hour.  Now I have a rough piece of brass with edges smooth as a baby's bottom. No cut de finger. Not enough resolution on the camera to see. Now the same piece is in the rotary with 1/4 pound of 80 grit silicon carbide (came in mail today) and 1/2 cup water. Going to let it run till morning.

Probably why its said to use stainless balls for debur. The cheap steel ones do impart a dark colour to AL, a dull grey, but it does polish off.

After the 80 grit (if any of the piece is left I'll do a 220 then a 500. Nothing else but a curious adventure and what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing messed up.


Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 03:08:51 AM
I'm interested in the grits your using. Is it like a powder? The rotary came with some stuff for rocks thats fine like a powder.

I not worried yet about the color. These 3 first steps are for get the texture right. Its the last 2 that will make her bling I hope.

If I dont turn my buffing wheel on again won't hurt my feelings......or fingers.


I want try this red stuff next. Its geared more towards brass, but the courser media and rouge is the baby step I wanta try before the final rub with the soft stuff.

When using a liqiud polish with the dry media, we are only talking an tsp. to 12 cups of dry media.

We will see what happens 2moro. If its a bust we start over, and adjust.

I figure about 2 or 3 more 12pks I have this polishing down. :beer:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 05, 2011, 11:30:39 AM
I'm interested in the grits your using. Is it like a powder? The rotary came with some stuff for rocks thats fine like a powder.

I figure about 2 or 3 more 12pks I have this polishing down. :beer:

Matt

Yup, the powder grit is geared more for rock, sand paper without the paper. Looked at the piece this morning, the outside circumference has a nice frosted feel to it, nice and even. The faces appear hardly touched, but they were hacksaw cuts so do not really qualify in the example. I did put a good fingernail catcher scratch (0.001 -0.002?) upon the circumference to use as a reference. It is just about gone. Trying to get an idea of how much material is removed vs. time - grit.

Give it another 5-6 hours and switch it over to the 220 grit. I know the object is to remove as little material as possible to achieve the best possible finish but like sighting in the 44 mag gotta have a wide range to start with. Spent 20 years listening to the "We've always done it this way" without any explanation as to why, most cases no one actually knew, also spent a few weekends working and grumbling as the "why" had turned into "OH! Thats WHY." Darn tool room never did stock those cans of Edge Margin or that mysterious part stretcher tool.

Rotary tumbler also seems to be sensitive to the amount of media contained. Too much and the parts don't get trapped reducing the slide time. Seems should be just enough so the media and part is carried up the side leaving just enough ramp for the parts to fall, slide down against.

Coffee, that's what I need. UPS slow boat to bring the vibratory tumbler one of these days.

Robert

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 11:40:22 AM
I'm interested in the grits your using. Is it like a powder? The rotary came with some stuff for rocks thats fine like a powder.

I figure about 2 or 3 more 12pks I have this polishing down. :beer:

Matt

Yup, the powder grit is geared more for rock, sand paper without the paper. Looked at the piece this morning, the outside circumference has a nice frosted feel to it, nice and even. The faces appear hardly touched, but they were hacksaw cuts so do not really qualify in the example. I did put a good fingernail catcher scratch (0.001 -0.002?) upon the circumference to use as a reference. It is just about gone. Trying to get an idea of how much material is removed vs. time - grit.

Give it another 5-6 hours and switch it over to the 220 grit. I know the object is to remove as little material as possible to achieve the best possible finish but like sighting in the 44 mag gotta have a wide range to start with. Spent 20 years listening to the "We've always done it this way" without any explanation as to why, most cases no one actually knew, also spent a few weekends working and grumbling as the "why" had turned into "OH! Thats WHY." Darn tool room never did stock those cans of Edge Margin or that mysterious part stretcher tool.

Rotary tumbler also seems to be sensitive to the amount of media contained. Too much and the parts don't get trapped reducing the slide time. Seems should be just enough so the media and part is carried up the side leaving just enough ramp for the parts to fall, slide down against.

Coffee, that's what I need. UPS slow boat to bring the vibratory tumbler one of these days.

Robert



I look at the rotary as the deburr and rough polish. I think its going to easier to get repeatable results in the vibratory for the end finish.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 05, 2011, 11:54:14 AM

I look at the rotary as the deburr and rough polish. I think its going to easier to get repeatable results in the vibratory for the end finish.


Your right, it does quick work on the edge debur. Agree on your conclusion to the vibratory results. I putt around so should any one ask as to why I do something a certain way I can say in a voice backed by failure, "I tried the other methods" Let me tell ya what happen, kids then would go off a-running "Quick! get out of here, Dads gonna tell another story" :) Most times an hour or so talk about why, gave better results than them getting grounded, but that's another story.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 12:06:08 PM
  :scratch:             I'm thinking this thing would mix up a hell of drink, if nothing else.  :headbang:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Russel on February 05, 2011, 01:02:20 PM
[...]
Any pointers on taking better pics?
 [...]

Just the basics...

It looks like you are using a Nikon coolpix S220. I recommend using close-up 'scene mode', using a small tripod (http://www.amazon.com/Carson-Optical-HandiPod-Compact-Folding/dp/B0010D12PS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1296928738&sr=8-5), and using the self timer to prevent motion blur.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 01:33:46 PM

 [...][/quote]

Just the basics...

It looks like you are using a Nikon coolpix S220.
[/quote]

How in the...............Man your good. I'm going to town for a movie with the fam, I'll look for a cheapy tri pod.

Thanks I'll try that out.


Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 05, 2011, 02:13:21 PM
Yours can focus down to 4 inches as says the manual

Macro mode is used for taking pictures of objects as close as 10 cm (4 in.). Note
that the flash may be unable to light entire subject at distances of less than 60 cm
(2 ft.).

Your photo info comes up under file properties

Image Type: jpeg (The JPEG image format)
Width: 640 pixels
Height: 480 pixels
Camera Brand: NIKON
Camera Model: COOLPIX S220
Date Taken: 2011:02:04 16:06:44
Exposure Time: 1/58 sec.
ISO Speed Rating: 379
Flash Fired: Flash did not fire, auto mode.
Metering Mode: Pattern
Exposure Program: Normal program
Focal Length: 6.3 mm
Software: COOLPIX S220V1.0
Description:               

 far better than my POS at 8 inches

Macro mode, delay timer and a tri-pod will put ya in the infield.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 02:19:58 PM
I thought I had it in macro mode???? the little flower is on the screen.

Will need a walk through when I get back.


Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 05, 2011, 03:11:50 PM
I have  been experimenting with a vibratory tumbler also. I have been using a product called ' Microbrite' that I got from the Eastwood Co. Also got some liquid soap that you are supposed to use with it. This is a 'burnishing' media and is comprised of 3mm ceramic balls. From another website I was told that ceramic media needs to be 'broken in' for 12 hours or more before it is effective. I have only run a small batch for a few hours but I would say it is indeed  burnishing the aluminum. I will get some pics up when the project is complete.

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/EastwoodMicrobrightPorcelainBalls2.jpg)

I also want to try rotary tumbling. I have a barrel and some stainless steel media on its way from Rio Gande. They have a huge selection of tumblers and media. A website called "steelmedia.com" suggests that the best  combination for polishing aluminum is:

40% 2mm balls
40% 3mm balls
40% 3mm ballcones




Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 05, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
Well, I hit 'post' instead of 'preview'   The company name is Rio Grande, not Rio Gande.

Also, I found this interesting 3 part video on You Tube. The information given seems to be in German, but my online translator isn't giving me all the info. It appears he is using 6mm balls at 72 r.p.m.

"Im Video ist eine Trommelpolieranlage, gefüllt mit 6,0 mm Edelstahlkugeln, zu sehen. Angetrieben wird die Anlage mit einem DC-Servomotor und einem Getriebe 1:71. Als Medium kommt Wasser und ein leicht saurer Polierzusatz in die Trommel.
Dauer des Vorganges ca. 6 Stunden, Drehzahl der Trommel ca. 70 U/Min. Poliert wurde hier Aluminium AlMgSi0,5, es sind vor dem Poliervorgang keinerlei Vorarbeiten mehr nötig. Ergibt schöne verrundete Kanten und eine Oberfläche wie verchromt (natürlich mit der für diese Bearbeitungmethode typischen Orangenhaut).
Es folgen noch zwei weitere Videos mit dem Ergebnis. "

&NR=1


&NR=1




&NR=1
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 05, 2011, 11:16:03 PM
That rotary is cool that you can see whats going on inside.

I'm not getting near the results he did, Mine still a dull gray. I might have to get some balls  :bugeye:


Snub, keep us posted on your results.

Matt


Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 12:02:00 AM
That rotary is cool that you can see whats going on inside.

I'm not getting near the results he did, Mine still a dull gray. I might have to get some balls  :bugeye:

Matt

Ill get a shot tomorrow of a piece that is going from that dull grey to more of a shine.

Had tried copper coated BB's and that leaves a dull black finish on AL, The steel ones leave a dull grey finish. Those stainless balls are doing the burnish job giving that nice shiny look.

Your media choices should be stable so as not to transfer material, perhaps the color is coming from the additives. So a batch run with just media and water?

Still running a piece in the 220 grit and water. Will check it in the AM.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 12:10:46 AM
That rotary is cool that you can see whats going on inside.

I'm not getting near the results he did, Mine still a dull gray. I might have to get some balls  :bugeye:

Matt

Ill get a shot tomorrow of a piece that is going from that dull grey to more of a shine.

Had tried copper coated BB's and that leaves a dull black finish on AL, The steel ones leave a dull grey finish. Those stainless balls are doing the burnish job giving that nice shiny look.

Your media choices should be stable so as not to transfer material, perhaps the color is coming from the additives. So a batch run with just media and water?

Still running a piece in the 220 grit and water. Will check it in the AM.

Robert

Ya, next round no additives. :thumbup:

POS cam w/POS tri pod:
(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/001-49.jpg)

(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/002-40.jpg)

Any better???
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 12:49:42 AM
Much better shots, I'm gonna have to grab the kids camera to get shots like that.

Pulled a piece out of the 220 grit. Grit is messy and may get put into the round file.

Shows the dull grey color left from the steel ball debur operation being removed (this piece didnt go thru the 80 grit stage)  Grit is messy, the 220 does the finger stick, think the 500 will be just to easy to have travel into the house, chips are bad enough, Bride will skin me for sure if the grit spots start showing up :)

Did I say that Grit is messy stuff?

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 12:25:43 PM
http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/SearchPage.aspx?page=GRID&free_text=media

You name it they got it
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 01:06:15 PM
Works for me, another order coming up after I wipe the drool off me chin

Did I mention Grit was messy?

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 02:40:37 PM
What you thinking foozer..................SS balls, or Mix? What size?


Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 03:12:01 PM
Im thinking SS balls (dry) probably in the 1/8 inch range just for a debur operation. Really like how the BB's clean the edges up. Nice even radius. Grab a tube of daisys (real cheap) and toss a sharp edged piece in.  The SS balls should hold up for repeat usage.

For finish I'm leaning towards walnut shell and Simichrome. No reason other than when this thread first started I thunk to myself, sounds interesting, next day I had to go check out a rental that the tenants moved out of and there it was, a 20 pound bag of walnut shell cage litter. OK that works. The in between steps? Im watching you :)  Did I mention grit is messy!

The in-between stage is one of them dependant upon the finish being presented. Want to remove as little material as possible and still get rid of any tool marks.

Still watching how the 220 grit is doing against the scratch mark I put in the piece. When the piece is all frosted over Ill switch to the 500 grit just for shits and giggles. I am not going to use Grit for future use, Did I mention grit is messy? but some equivalent product has yet to be looked at. Like most things, Ill put the choices up on the wall and throw a dart to see one is best.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 03:36:38 PM
The shell and cob media in my splined test pieces is a mess. I'm going to get some burnishing compound they have, is nice to only buy a few oz., instead of a 5gal pail through mc carr.

Is burnishing and polishing the same thing??

I am happy with the ceramic media results. I like the way it deburrs the pieces. Still not getting the shine from the dry media that that guy's video with the SS balls. I don't know yet, but think the dry media may be the way to go when the brass trials start.

I wonder what kinda of "volume" a pound or ten pounds of the stainless steel media is?

10 lbs of ceramic is about 1 gal
6 to 7lbs of shell/cob is bout 1 gal
???lbs of SS is about 1gal

 
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 04:27:31 PM
1 cup of BB's, steel, is just about 2 pounds, there 4.5 mm or so the container says. I dislike metric just cant visualise it.

I think burnish is a straight metal to metal contact and polishing has some fine abrasive additive. If left long enough the dry  SS should give a nice shiny. Plan of attack so far is just to use the balls for smoothing off the sharp edges and switch over to the finish process.

Been a couple of suggestions made so far as to use of a final, similar products designed to carry a polish compound. Trick is to settle on one that will do the job in a reasonable time frame (subjective of course), holds up to repeated use, and that wont break the bank in the process. Can't have Prime Rib on a burger budget and maintain this nice round figure. Crap now I'm hungry again.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
Do you think there will be a noticable difference between steel media and stainless media?

Because there $ is sure noticeable.

Do you think running a cheap plastic media to take up some volume with the steel/stainless media would work?
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 04:50:52 PM
Ya I just looked at SS media. I can get a lot of BB's for what is wanted for SS. Later today I'll have a good part that will need a debur. This piece is a keeper and I'm going to use just straight Daisy steel BB's. Will grab the kids camera and get the before-after shots.

Game day and the Bucket of KFC has my name written all over it, not abig  football fan but the commercials are a hoot.

When you start designing Inspector Gadget forearm add-on's, like the pop-up flash-light to locate the keyhole, built in cell phone holder . . . too many cartoons in my day :)

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 06:51:18 PM
Who got the 16lbs for $51???
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 09:31:58 PM
I'm going to try SS pins and SS balls when they get here :clap:

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 10:01:05 PM
I'm going to try SS pins and SS balls when they get here :clap:


UPS seems slow when waiting

Got a piece Inch or so long, Inch or so in dia with nice sharp edges and a fairly decent finish (for me) in the tumbler now. Will check it in an hour (watching Puppy Bowl with the Bride, things ya gotta do to keep harmony)

Robert

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 10:04:05 PM
This game is going to get me a heartattack!!! :zap:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 10:18:17 PM
Try to be excited with Chickens as Cheerleaders, Hamsters in the blimp and Cats doing the half time show.

Yes Dear this is very entertaining

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 11:05:42 PM
About an hour of tumbling with good old Steel BB's. Taken the sharpness off the edges with no other noticeable material removal. Ill give it another hour or so and take a peek.

All I'm looking for right now is a repeatable, easy debur operation.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 06, 2011, 11:51:48 PM
About an hour of tumbling with good old Steel BB's. Taken the sharpness off the edges with no other noticeable material removal. Ill give it another hour or so and take a peek.

All I'm looking for right now is a repeatable, easy debur operation.

Robert

Looks good. I forgot, are you using a rotary, or vibratory?

I have jar of my sons BBs here, but there the copper coated ones. Wonder what would happen if............ :scratch:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 06, 2011, 11:58:18 PM
Rotary tumbler, from what I have read this type works better at debur while the vibratory does better at finish.

Oh  current run is with 1/2 cup of the copper coated BB's dry. Part if left in overnight will get a dull black color to it. Might just leave it in overnight, the BB's wont remove any material so . . .   famous last words? Maybe Ill go down and check it

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 07, 2011, 12:01:38 AM
Is your barrel/tube/tub round or hex shaped?

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 07, 2011, 01:24:20 AM
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one experimenting with this stuff. There seems to be no right or wrong, but what works for you with the material you are using.

My stuff from Rio Grande arrived yesterday. Haven't had time to use it, but would like to show you what I got.

First is the barrel for the rotary tumbler. I was planning on building my own but found this small 'replacement barrel' for $30.00 If all works out I will build a larger one. The hexagonal barrels apparently give the best results.

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts001.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts002.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts028.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts030.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts024.jpg)

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 07, 2011, 01:30:57 AM
Snub,

Wow thats a nice looking tumbler!!! You build it yourself?

I have just a round barrel. I going to try getting results from that first.

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 07, 2011, 01:35:57 AM
Is your barrel/tube/tub round or hex shaped?

Matt

Round, with indents to carry up the material. So far am happy with it as to debur. The kids old rock tumbler. Vibratory is on order.

Like the Hex unit just posted by Snub, simple, good capacity for small pieces. Nice DIY project.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 07, 2011, 01:38:52 AM
Don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I can only post so much and it all goes for crap so I will continue here.

The Super Sunsheen Burnishing Liquid. Lots of info on the label:

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts006.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts005.jpg)

This is the 'mix' from Rio Grande:

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts016.jpg)

The 3/32 and 5/32 ellipses. They are round but have a flat spot on each end. That is done on purpose, I imagine:

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts018.jpg)

(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/mithslew/Machine%20Shop/MachineShopRotaryTumbler-SSMedia-MyVibTumbler-FancyNuts010.jpg)
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 07, 2011, 01:49:09 AM
Like it. Agree it seems to be what works for the person yet shared info does narrow down the choices. Like that barrel, Can see having a couple, three units each dedicated to a step process.

Post your trials, more the better

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 07, 2011, 01:57:38 AM
More add ons:

If the shot is not stainless steel it will rust immediately in water, making a mess of your work. You can use it but you have to clean it often. It's just better to go with stainless.

The little barrel I bought has a capacity of 3 pounds of shot.

Regarding this small barrel, Rio Grande says:

Add 3# metal shot.
Add your workpieces 4 parts media to 1 part workpiece by volume.
Add compound solution to the barrel until solution is 1/2" above the level of the media.
Tumble.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: picclock on February 07, 2011, 06:53:20 AM
Hi Snub

That hexagonal tumbler looks good. What stops the tumbler sides from abrading and becoming opaque ?. I have a 4x6" drum which is rubber lined presumably to prevent this problem.


Very impressive results on the parts. How long did you tumble and at what speed ?

Thanks for sharing

picclock
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 07, 2011, 10:05:48 AM
This is great guys keep it coming. :ddb:



I did some more searching last night on burnishing compounds. Lot of guys using Dawn dish soap. Some say no difference, some say there is a better shine using a regular burnishing compound. I ordered the 5/32" SS shot and some of the the dry compound to try.


920 Powder Compound   
 
 
Item Number: 339008
Use for sterling silver, gold, brass, copper, zinc and aluminum. • Helps inhibit rust on carbon steel shot. • Mix three ounces of powder with one gallon of water. • Compatible media: carbon or stainless steel and porcelain

I found some cheaper SS Pins on ebay also. 1/8" x 1"

Matt



Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 07, 2011, 10:29:45 AM

While we are on tumbling and surface finishes...  One of the best things you can do is start with a good finish so that all of the processing steps that follow only improve on a good thing.  Yeah, probably didn't need to state that for this group here, it kind of falls into the 'well ... duh' bin.  Anywho, thought I'd share, one of those great steps for aluminium that I almost never remember until I'm actually at the machine is to pick up a piece of scotch brite. 


Scotch brite does works well, quick swipe or four and a lot of the minor tool marks are gone. And yes it needs to be stressed that the end product is only as good as what is started with. A piece with tool marks to start will be a piece with nice and shiny tool marks at end.

So far at least for me

Shot: Preferably Stainless, works well to debur. This operation of course can be done with a file, sandpaper, yet for small pieces its hard to keep it from becoming too rounded over. Couple hours in a dry tumble with shot and the edges are crisp and clean yet you'd have to work hard to cut something with it.

Grit: Forget it, although it will remove minor tool marks and leave a semi finish (500 grit) it is just to darn messy for repeatable. Its bad enough to have that chip trail following me around, no need to compound it with black grit.

Media and Part load: Follow the chosen media's manufactures suggestion, at least start with it. Banking on their testing history which developed the process.

Media tool mark removal: unknown for me at this time

Media Finish:  Limited only by the depth of ones pocket. I for one am going the walnut shell with compound mix. From what I have seen it should do the job for my usage.

Robert

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 07, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
This is great guys keep it coming. :ddb:

I did some more searching last night on burnishing compounds. Lot of guys using Dawn dish soap. Some say no difference, some say there is a better shine using a regular burnishing compound. I ordered the 5/32" SS shot and some of the the dry compound to try.


Have done some hand burnishing, the pushing the clad back over minor AP skin scratches, miserable process. Just used Vaseline as a lubricant. Idea was to smooth the metal without removing any. So the soap, ya I can see it. Pure AL is so soft that a dry rub creates enough heat to mar the surface. The lub should allow the material to smooth without an actual metal to metal contact.

Me thinks I'm over-thinking  it when it should be a Yup That works

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 07, 2011, 04:06:28 PM
Hi Snub

That hexagonal tumbler looks good. What stops the tumbler sides from abrading and becoming opaque ?.

picclock

I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I imagine it won't take long before the sides become hard to see through. The middle part of the ends should remain clear.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 07, 2011, 09:59:34 PM
Well I can report upon one thing not to do. Using Grit, something that when this experiment is over, will not be using again. Brain Fart, why not just add some good old WD40 into the dry grit mix, what can it hurt. Took a while to notice that the "Thump, Thump" noise was gone. Opened the tumbler and the grit WD40 mix had turned into something akin to baby POO!

Took a while to clean it up,  Did I mention that grit was messy!!!

Grit 1
Me  0

Grit Trashcan 0
Me                  1

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 07, 2011, 10:41:02 PM
Mad scientists we are. :smart: Save the grit for rocks, I got it.

I feel a success coming shortly from somebody. :clap:

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 07, 2011, 11:34:04 PM
Tracking shows my Rio order will be here friday. The next run of parts Is going to be the real deal. I need to get my wrist parts done, to meet with a potential distributor. :whip:

Next round will be the 1" stub shafts with the splines and tapped set screw holes. I going to start off with a mix of medium and fine ceramic for deburring in the rotary, then the 1/8" Needles SS in the rotary to start the polish, and finish up in the vibratory with the 5/32 SS shot. :bow:

I'm going to run my 5 extra parts first to fine tune any problems, and cross our fingers for the production batch. :palm:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 08, 2011, 12:06:54 AM
Mad scientists we are. :smart: Save the grit for rocks, I got it.

I feel a success coming shortly from somebody. :clap:



Rocks YUP, now the Brides on me, Oh you can polish rocks, pulls out a bag of raw something or other supposed to be perty stones that females get all ga ga over, bats her eyes and Boy, now I'm in trouble.

Did I mention grit is messy.

Be watching your progress on your next run.  SS balls for finish? I'm still brain stuck on trying walnut shell with compound for the final. better check that tracking number and see what slow boat the new tumbler is on.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 08, 2011, 12:29:32 AM
The fine cob/walnut media fills them splines in this particular part like crazy. I could hardly pick the shi stuff out with a screwdriver. These parts don't need to be mirrors, just a smooth deburred semi shine.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 08, 2011, 01:09:40 AM
The fine cob/walnut media fills them splines in this particular part like crazy. I could hardly pick the shi stuff out with a screwdriver. These parts don't need to be mirrors, just a smooth deburred semi shine.

Matt

Got ya, now I remember you mentioned that before, good now ill remember it as a limitation.

Learning all the time

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 08, 2011, 02:40:23 AM
I'm wondering if anyone has used  'popping' corn as a media for burnishing or polishing. It's cheap as dirt, like $2 a pound. I bought some but haven't had a chance to try it. It is hard but I don't know if it will soften when mixed with polishing compound. Maybe ...rice?  Also cheap. Marbles? Crushed glass...very cheap!
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 08, 2011, 03:36:38 AM
I'm wondering if anyone has used  'popping' corn as a media for burnishing or polishing. It's cheap as dirt, like $2 a pound. I bought some but haven't had a chance to try it. It is hard but I don't know if it will soften when mixed with polishing compound. Maybe ...rice?  Also cheap. Marbles? Crushed glass...very cheap!

Have come across talks like that in looking over goggle results. Feeling I got from it all was that yes it'll work at the expense of time and or media changes as the softer ones wear out. I chose the walnut shell as a final for two reasons. Seemed to pop up in a majority of the discussions, the first choice as the type already containing a type of compound and second the litter type available at pet stores which works best with an additive. 

I can let the dry shells tumble for a week or get the already prepared shells and have it done in a 12 hours. At the end of the day when I am done dinking around Ill be using the already prepared media. For me, experience with "What Not to Do's" helps me to focus in on establishing a set procedure that requires minimal thinking.

As 1hand as pointed out, the configuration of the pieces play a part in media choice, too soft and clogging may occur, too large and areas may never be touched.

So we are doing trial and error, goofing round with different methods. Solid evidence has been presented as to a type with finish results. Do I just jump on that wagon and go for the ride? I know that I'm going to in the end, but I just gotta run that jalopy into the ground so I can truly appreciate the Cadillac.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: AdeV on February 08, 2011, 05:22:50 AM
Opened the tumbler and the grit WD40 mix had turned into something akin to baby POO!

On the bright side, I bet it smelled a whole lot better than baby poo....
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 09, 2011, 09:38:02 AM
Looks good Ken!!
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 09, 2011, 10:21:38 AM
Thats cooking with gas!

Oh Shiny Things!!


Robert

Green, not Red, rouge  Poor Harold . . .
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 10, 2011, 01:41:28 AM
Still no joy, awaiting for the tumbler, however the bottle of powder coat came in, a cast iron color.

That will be a whole nuther experience as if I'm not nuts enough.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 10, 2011, 10:22:51 AM
Still no joy, awaiting for the tumbler, however the bottle of powder coat came in, a cast iron color.

That will be a whole nuther experience as if I'm not nuts enough.

Robert


Powder coat..................toaster oven?/

I getting set up for Parkerizing at sometime, but it needs to warm up here. It has to be above freezing before it can get shipped.


Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 10, 2011, 10:51:03 AM
Toaster Oven, thats the ticket. Looking over the fishing jig method where the part is heated then dipped into a puffy powder source air pot.

Karnack sees a BIG mess coming up :)  Just thought (and therein begins the trouble) that on small pieces it might be doable. It needs to warm up around here a bit tho, 25f is just a bit to chilly for my taste.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 10, 2011, 10:59:39 AM
Still -10F at 10am here.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 10, 2011, 03:00:56 PM
That temp there wont be much reading done in the outhouse   :ddb:


Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 11, 2011, 03:15:06 PM
Recieved some odds and ends today. Got 5lbs of steel shot 5/32. I mixed that some ceramic media and run that dryin the rotary for about 2 hrs .

I pulled open the cover and found the all splined pieces of AL where indeed deburred, and covered in a black sticky film.

I also recieved the 5/32" SS shot and burnishing compound from Rio. Its very sad day when you dump $200 worth of SS in a vibratory tumbler and it doesn't fill it half full. :scratch:

Stuff so heavy that enough SS shot to cover the parts will not vibe enough to move parts at all. So it looks like this step will continue in the rotary. The burnishing compound mix with water, has the same slippery feel of soapy water.

I still haven't got the SS pins yet, but will report back with the SS shot results after some time in the rotary. :coffee:

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 11, 2011, 03:47:31 PM
Stone Axe and Flint Knives

Hmm piece too large to debur in rotary, plus its occupied trying to polish up another piece, what to do, what to do?  Even makes me chuckle a bit. Round and round she goes, in a few hours I'll know.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 11, 2011, 07:10:07 PM
What kind of lathe is that Robert?

You give it to much credit with the tag "Lathe"
its an old Craftsman aa109. Real good for spending an hour to set up for a ten minute work, crossing fingers all the time that it stays where you set it. Well not quite that bad. If you really watch the DI's and creep up on the target number, usually can hit it.

But then if it didnt drive me wacko, it would be no fun. Really should get a more robust machine, just too many flipping other projects that all call for $$$. Like those solar panels in the background hollering to be set back up (grid tie adventure) The putt putt car that I just did a cam change on and with giant brain fart used synthetic oil on a flat tappet setup, Ya it went flat on # 5 intake and of course the real smart one move off of the 20 acres into a 6000 sq footer, Less yard work but . . .   if you want to ever see a BB bouncing in a tin can  I'M it :)

So if the Elbow engine I'm slowly working on actually runs then the 109 can be called a lathe. Gotta love it

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 12:27:02 AM
7 hours of the SS shot and parts look terrible. Scratched up and a dull to dark gray. Edges seem to be taking a shine or is whats left of the orginal shine.

The scratches might be coming from parts hitting, so I've now cut the batch of parts in half to run again. I rinsed the shot and replaced the water with fresh, and added a small amount of compound. I will let it turn for 10 hrs and check.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 12:52:45 AM
Thats curious, parts changing color. Guess then on my end its not strictly cause I used cheap BB's that caused the color change.

Now I have a piece rolling in dry BB's, bout 6 or so hours, no color change, dry. Did get the color when ran one with water. Do recall reading to change the fluid when it changes color tho. Piece in the walnut shells is still a going. Starting to brighten up. I have nothing but time so 4-5 days is no great wait.

Now where is that vibratory tumbler,  funny once its here then time is nothing, but waiting for it to arrive GRRR.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 01:30:45 AM
I went from 18 parts to 8, and now don't hear the thumping as much, just the shot rolling. I wasn't sure if changing the water was the thing to do, but if you think you read that was good, I feel better. I hope this works.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 10:14:37 AM
Getting old am I, few minutes of "where the heck did I see that" coupled with the "when you going to learn to write down sources"

Reply #66 in this thread. The photo shots, instructions, change fluid when it turns dark. Now I'm really gonna step on my own tongue but we are cutting metal, generates heat, creates oxides, we don't see em but they be there. Tumblers by the nature of the process remove these oxides which turn the solution dark.

So the thought is, just to watch the fluid and rinse media, change fluid as necessary to keep it clean. As the dirt is removed from the parts and left in solution it'll just be transferred back onto the piece. So the drop of dawn dishsoap applied that has been mentioned must be to encapsulate the crud, reducing its transfer back. Still have to change fluids tho.

Also came across the table again indicates a 5-1 media - part ratio mix for minimal part to part contact. The more delicate the part the greater the ratio.

Patience, to which I personally have none, but I can wait. Coffee and donuts are well suited for those "Wait" times.

Back to beating them pieces to a shine :) just not so many at once

Robert

Edit   photo 2 pieces. One on left from tumbler with dry BB's over night. Purpose was just to debur the edges which it did. Can tell no tool marks removed. Wanted to see just how well the BB process performed under a harsh case. Did fine.

Piece on right is from a dry walnut 2 day tumbler session. Its getting a shine but is obvious that the middle stage is missing. The media with compound to remove the finer tool marks. As this piece has multiple curved surfaces thinking the walnut shells with impregnated grit is in order.

Going for a three stage process then, I'll be back
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 12:19:28 PM
I checked again. 18hrs total. Not as dark, but diffenitly not a shine yet. I can see spots that all minor tool marks are missing and looks to be taking a sheen. I reduced the part load by a 1/3 again, and changed water. Back to the grinded.

I don't know if I stated that these parts are all 7075. I now there is a diffent difference in machining this alloy verus 6061, because of the hardness. This might be a contruibting factor in the finishing stage also??


Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 12:27:47 PM
my pieces are 6061, tween that and 7075 wouldn't sweat it. Using a rotary tumbler if I recall, think days. If using wet method set the alarm for a fluid change check. Guessing that first run will pull most of the crud, second cleaner and third if need be ought to be fairly clean.

Think I'll go turn up a few pieces to use as test coupons, beats doing the dishes.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 12:47:16 PM
They went from also black from the dry deburr to the dark silver so far. The two times I've changed the water,  its is nasty black. Its getting removed slowly. I think I could change it every couple hours and that would speed up the removal of the oxides. Once that is done, I'm thinking your going to have some pretty nice bright looking parts.

I agree with leaving them for longer times with out changing the water is probaly hurting me more than helping.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 01:17:18 PM

I agree with leaving them for longer times with out changing the water is probaly hurting me more than helping.

Matt

Sure its dependant upon material and media, from the cruising I've done a common theme is dirty water, change as needed. Also ran into a negative about simple green as caswells (sp?) Hard to believe a nice clean piece has so much dirt in it :)

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 01:23:37 PM
I'm using only the recommended rio brunishing compound now. I hope the parts look as good as they went in the first time. I like the sheen they had, but they needed the deburr. After the deburr though, is when the work starts to get them back. :hammer:
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 04:21:28 PM
SS pins showed up today. I like the looks of them. Next time I try them for the deburring step, I'm going to start with the SS pins instead of the ceramic. Hopefully will keep the parts cleaner, and just knock off the edge a bit. If that works it should be an easier task to return the parts to the orginal sheen with the SS balls.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 04:35:50 PM
give the pins an hour shot at a time DRY see what ya end up with

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 12, 2011, 04:50:49 PM
Just checked the Shot again, and they are starting to transform. About a 1/3 of the way to the finish line. Total time so far 24 hours.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 12, 2011, 10:25:06 PM
Trying some walnut shells in my vibratory tumbler for the final finish.  I had some 'creamy' car polish that I tried to mix in with the shells, but it wouldn't mix and looked like a cat's litter box. I added some water, mixed it up, let it dry but the results were unimpressing. So, I went to the local auto supply and picked up a 10 oz. bottle of Autosol Metal Liquid Polish. I poured about half the bottle into about 3# of shells and mixed it together by hand. The polish disappeared instanly, I guess soaking into the shells.  I left it overnight then ran some parts in it today. After about 4 hours I pulled the 6061 aluminum parts out and....yes! They were shiny. Not enough to see your reflection in, but a very nice finish. Tomorow I am going to pour the rest of the polish in and let it run some more. I will get some pics when it's done.
I am wondering about the 'treated' walnut shell and corn cob that is sold. Basically I'm wondering how they 'treat' it. The treated shells from Rio are mucho expensive.
Perhaps I'll try a google search.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 12, 2011, 10:55:53 PM
Keep us posted on your results. Ken gets good results with treated shells, have read where shells and simichome polish work and then just plain dry shells. Again, the theme for a final finish is leaning towards walnut shells.


Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snub on February 13, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
^

Well, Rio Grande sells 10# of untreated shells for $14.95. The treated shells are 11# for $73.85. That's a big jump, but there may be a lot of expensive polish and/or processing costs.

I will have a look at the green rouge you mention. Only problem is...I have no idea what 'rouge' is. The only thing that comes to mind is that is/was something that women use for makeup. ?
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 13, 2011, 01:14:33 AM
This is cob media with green rouge. 6lbs and can be bought at any sporting goods dept. in the reloading for $15.

(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/s7_210575_999_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 13, 2011, 01:59:08 AM
This is cob media with green rouge. 6lbs and can be bought at any sporting goods dept. in the reloading for $15.

Well, Rio Grande sells 10# of untreated shells for $14.95.

The treated shells are 11# for $73.85.

Graves Tumble Dry GREEN 5# 23.87  10# then  $47.74
http://www.gravescompany.com/grit.htm

7# bird litter  walnut shell 9.99  petsmart

Robert

Edit   Graves, documented results within this thread, you knew it would come round didnt ya :) or the reloading media. Price reasonable, difference is? heck if I know right now. Tad more looking to see what the flavor is. 
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Swarfing on February 13, 2011, 03:34:58 AM
Another one that i have seen used in a thread elswhere a long time ago was Perlite. You can get this from the garden centre as it is used for drainage in pots. It is a very light material which is also used as a refactory in homemade furnaces. May be worth a shot? here it is about £3-£4 a bag.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 13, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
After about 40 hrs, we are about 65% of the way there. The peice on the left is the orginal, and the one on the right is the one I been tumbling. Though the looks aren't that noticable, the feel is. The tumbled one is silky smooth. I think The way I went about the deburring stage has added to the time in restoring the finish.

(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/001-52.jpg)



(http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww62/mrazink/002-43.jpg)


Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 13, 2011, 12:47:26 PM
Looking good

Debur stage, pre-polish stage and final polish. I see a lot of reference to pre-polish as media with a cutting compound (ie. walnut with rouge) and the final polish as media with a lubricant or rather a compound with no cutting action.

Rotary is a slow and go but its starting to be a looker. Now that's being done with compound and red rouge?  rio burnishing compound ?

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 13, 2011, 12:52:59 PM
Looking good

Debur stage, pre-polish stage and final polish. I see a lot of reference to pre-polish as media with a cutting compound (ie. walnut with rouge) and the final polish as media with a lubricant or rather a compound with no cutting action.

Rotary is a slow and go but its starting to be a looker. Now that's being done with compound and red rouge?  rio burnishing compound ?

Robert

SS shot, water, Rio burnishing compound powder.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 13, 2011, 12:57:11 PM

SS shot, water, Rio burnishing compound powder.

The Flitz? or Super Sunsheen Burnishing Compound
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 13, 2011, 01:17:10 PM

SS shot, water, Rio burnishing compound powder.

The Flitz? or Super Sunsheen Burnishing Compound

The dry #920, I use about a tble spoon per water change.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 13, 2011, 02:23:47 PM
Page 438 of the reo catalog

Corn absorbs moisture, so reasons that it'll turn to mush, Like the walnut shell and simichrome mention. Off to get some

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 14, 2011, 12:14:43 AM
Nothing major

Tried what will be a flywheel rim made from brass in a 2 hour tumble steel shot to debur the edges. Fresh turned brass can be sharp, can now run the fingers over the edges with no cuts at all. Really starting to like this process just for the debur. Even running a piece of sandpaper over sharp edges can look out of proportion, too roundly for the scale and I do remember the time the sharp edge ran right thru the paper into my finger.

Dry shot, tumbler, couple hours, working so far

Robert

Edit  edges pixalated  my chepo camera
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 15, 2011, 10:19:57 AM
Happy happy Joy Joy, Did my good deed for the day. Let the "Magic Smoke" out of the tumbler. Be free oh Magic Smoke! Funny how that happens once in a while  :bang:

So now that I see the innards are nothing special time to look around and see what I can cobble up.

Got a bit carried away looking at the vibratory action, like a cat with a mouse, played with the toy till it quit moving. hate it when that happens.

Edit: purely my fault, probably wasnt a good idea to put some rail road spikes in it to see how it would do

Tumbler 1
Me 0

Can see the windings got just a tad excited letting go of the "Magic Smoke"

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on February 16, 2011, 07:46:43 PM
 :ddb:

12hrs in rotary, wet with pins
24hrs in rotary, wet with shot
24hrs in vibratory, dry with cob and green rogue.

Like a mirror now. Working on second batch, will post pics when done.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on February 16, 2011, 07:58:34 PM
Sounds like a happy camper

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on March 02, 2011, 12:06:44 AM
Got my rump down to HF today and picked up another tumbler, even on sale YA. This time got the you break it we will replace it warranty. Naw, can't pack up the last one I toasted and pass it off to them for a replacement, every time I go to pull a stunt like that the karma comes around and bites me. Example being, just thinking bout it couple days ago and, you know whats worse than getting your car stuck in a ditch full of snow? when its the ditch in your own driveway approach. Then it was break a tap, plus chip a tooth eating Neccos, and I really like Neccos. Thats enough for one day and thought.

Got some pieces in it now with ceramic media for a first pass to knock off the rough edges and minor tool marks.

Hows the second batch 1hand?
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on March 02, 2011, 11:55:07 AM
Ran a few pieces for 12 hours with wet ceramic media. Now it says moderate aggressive removal. OK?  Other than doing a fine job of deburing the edges to which shot does as well, no real evidence of tool mark removal is seen. Another run to town, see what else is around.

Hmm? I think I am detecting a pattern to the shapes I like

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: 1hand on March 03, 2011, 07:09:21 PM
Everything went fine. My pieces all came of the lathe though. All are round with no tooling marks visable to the eye when starting. End finish is a mirror IMHO. Thats doing the SS pins, shot, then the dry. I haven't delt with milling marks yet.

Matt
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on March 04, 2011, 12:23:44 AM
24 hours in walnut shell with a tube of Simichrome added. Just a hojboj of pieces. As stated earlier if the pieces have tool marks you'll end up with polished tool marks.

The crankshaft shows the non tumbled (left) vs the tumbled (right) supports. If I were to try and polish with a wheel the edges would loose there crispness.  When the next batch of abrasive media gets here I'll see how it tackles what I cannot escape, toolmarks.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: DeereGuy on March 25, 2011, 09:33:17 PM
foozer,
Which tumbler did you get from HF....I bought the 18lb vibratory tumbler about 5-6 weeks ago and it seems to be working great.  I am using their ceramic media mixed with the plastic triangular media with water/dawn dish soap.

Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: foozer on March 25, 2011, 09:51:13 PM
foozer,
Which tumbler did you get from HF....I bought the 18lb vibratory tumbler about 5-6 weeks ago and it seems to be working great.  I am using their ceramic media mixed with the plastic triangular media with water/dawn dish soap.


Got the 5 lb model, this time with the warranty in case I burn another up.  Got some of the green triangle thingies from Eastwood as a media to get rid of tool marks. Use wet with drop of Dawn. Leaves a nice matt finish, downside is the god awful aroma it generates interacting with the plastic barrel (stink is an understatement) Use walnut shells with a tube of Simichrome mixed in for final.

Robert
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: snoopdog on April 06, 2011, 04:31:00 PM
I make some hand forged rings from coins. I give them a fast polish on the lathe and toss them in a pill bottle of wet sand and tumble them a 1/2 hour by chucking the bottle in the lathe running slow. After that I buff them and they come out nice.

I will make a thread about my hand made coin rings, I fold them over and try to preserve all the details I can. they make nice gifts. I even use some old MT2 and mt3 dead centers as forming mandrels.
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: Rob.Wilson on April 06, 2011, 04:37:46 PM

I will make a thread about my hand made coin rings, I fold them over and try to preserve all the details I can. they make nice gifts. I even use some old MT2 and mt3 dead centers as forming mandrels.

Sounds very interesting   :thumbup:

Rob
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: j45on on April 17, 2011, 06:25:22 PM
I will make a thread about my hand made coin rings

Please do I would like to see them
Title: Re: Tumbler Trials & Tribulations
Post by: DaveH on April 17, 2011, 07:16:46 PM
And me too

DaveH