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Gallery, Projects and General => Mod-Ups! => Topic started by: vtsteam on December 08, 2014, 10:29:53 AM

Title: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 08, 2014, 10:29:53 AM
Okay, to start the ball rolling, I'm throwing down the glove to any MadModder foolish enough to take this on. I don't exactly yet know what the prize is going to be, but it's likely to be something truly worthless!  :)

The contest will go through February 13 (before Valentines Day), and polling for the winner, by popular vote will happen on the 15th and 16th (after Valentines day!).

The rules:

Build any kind of engine using any of the following raw materials:

pipe
pipe fittings
tubing (must be round)
a single 6" long by 1/2" dia bolt (or similar metric size)
nails (any size or type)

All materials must be ferrous (steel, iron, stainless)

If you need accessory stuff like spark or glow plugs, coils, (or tubing for compressed air or steam engines) that can be non ferrous where needed. And you can braze or solder.

But the main idea is to make the engine out of these everyday common ferrous materials. With those you can perform any machining, melting, casting or welding operation you want. As long as you started with the contest materials.

No sheet, plate, rod, block to start with (though you can create them from the contest raw materials with a forge if you want).

Fasteners of any kind are okay, if used as fasteners.

It would be great if you could take a picture of what you started with, and definitely you can post pictures of what you finish up with (running videos especially appreciated) here in this thread.

If you want to do a separate detailed build thread as you go along, that also would be very cool. (But not necessary.)

I really want to build along, but I'm disqualifying myself from winning.  But If someone else proposes a different Mod-Up, too, by gum, I'll be there with a sharpened drill bit straight from my Drill Doctor, so look out!


Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on December 08, 2014, 12:59:22 PM
An engine from some pipe fittings and an old bolt :loco: ......Sounds very much like a BSA single to me  :lol:

Anyway,this could be an interesting challenge to watch.....OZ.
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on December 08, 2014, 09:39:33 PM
Anyone gonna jump in on this one? I will make a trophy/plaque for the winner!

Eric
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on December 08, 2014, 11:32:32 PM
Eric,I do hope we have some takers,it's a fun challenge that should bring out the best ingenuity and the absurd traits of a MadModder.....OZ.
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 09, 2014, 07:14:42 AM
Well, I'll certainly build something for the fun of it, and I hope others might think of something that appeals to them to put together and join in. Sometimes it takes awhile to clear off the workbench. Anyway, I'm in.   :dremel:
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 10, 2014, 08:56:23 PM
I can't start this until I get my mini-shop further along, but hope to before Christmas. But guys, if this particular Mod-up doesn't appeal the way it is, I'm open to suggestions to change it to make it more suitable for you.

Or if you want to start another Mod-Up on some totally different topic, please just propose it in a thread. Could be a rotary table, vise, mill, whatever you think others would be interested in joining together and building. I'd probably join it if it was something fun or something I need.
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on December 13, 2014, 07:26:16 PM
I like this idea maybe the winner should have the priviledge of deciding the next challenge? I may even have a go myself if I can find the time with all else I have going on.
Just to clarify though can it be a variety of pipe sizes or do we have to choose one size and stick with that?
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 13, 2014, 08:37:16 PM
Hey shipto, great!  :bow:

No size, number, or type limitation, and that includes pipe fittings -- like elbows, tees, pipe flanges, couplers, caps, plugs, etc. and those are often cast iron -- so a good bearing material. Cast iron pistons, cylinders, etc, are certainly possible with all that to choose from.

Also no limit on what you can do to this stuff -- chop them up, flatten them out, weld, melt, etc. whatever.

Also no limit on what kind of engine: steam, hot air, compressed air, IC, turbine, etc.

It's just a means of showing the range of things we can do.

Glad to have you aboard!!!!  :beer:
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: NormanV on December 17, 2014, 05:51:09 PM
It's too complicated for me, but will you please stop using my name(Valentine) in vain!
Title: Re: Valentine's Day Massacre: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 17, 2014, 09:37:20 PM
Sorry Norman!  :bow:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: awemawson on December 18, 2014, 04:12:58 AM
.... ah .... now I get it .... Valentines Day is when we all descend on Norman's place, have a demonstration of his casting skill then a big Bean Feast .... excellent  :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: NormanV on December 18, 2014, 04:54:52 AM
Sounds good, as long as you bring the drinks!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 18, 2014, 06:33:54 PM
What's a Bean Feast?  :scratch:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: awemawson on December 19, 2014, 02:46:58 AM
A get together with food.

Slang term usually applied tongue in cheek to some grand event such as a wedding reception but obviously originating from something more modest.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 19, 2014, 12:00:47 PM
Ahhh, thanks, Andrew. Didn't know whether it was a real custom.  :beer: A scene from, "Blazing Saddles" came to mind....  :med:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: DavidA on December 20, 2014, 02:56:00 PM
Norman,

...It's too complicated for me, but will you please stop using my name(Valentine) in vain!..

Have you got a sister called Shirley ?

Dave.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 20, 2014, 04:21:37 PM
Maybe to make it a little easier, let's say pipe, AND tubing (must be round, though -- no square structural stuff).

And their connecting fittings.

So everything from brake lines to electrical conduit can be used.

Must still be ferrous though -- iron,steel, stainless.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on December 24, 2014, 05:29:16 PM
Okay, okay, no takers yet. Sheeesh!  :doh: 

Lets add nails to the mix. This should make it easy, right?

You can use nails, any size, any type, as long as they're steel. So now we've got pipe, tubing, a big bolt, and nails.

That just cries out "ENGINE", doesn't it?  :poke:


(first post of the rules updated)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: bertie_bassett on January 01, 2015, 02:03:31 PM
well Ill give it a go, so chuck my name in the hat!

will be my first ever engine though so no promises
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Joules on January 01, 2015, 02:11:22 PM
 Can I just submit this Chinese moped motor, as your parts description is a pretty close fit....
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 01, 2015, 04:52:15 PM
Okay, okay, no takers yet. Sheeesh!  :doh: 

Lets add nails to the mix. This should make it easy, right?

You can use nails, any size, any type, as long as they're steel. So now we've got pipe, tubing, a big bolt, and nails.

That just cries out "ENGINE", doesn't it?  :poke:


(first post of the rules updated)

That just cries out "ENGINE", doesn't it?

Yeah double overhead cam v12 should be a doddle :lol: :lol:......OZ.

EDIT TO ADD: And 4 valves per cylinder,of course :palm:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 01, 2015, 06:00:26 PM
Hey great Bertie!

To the rest of yuh, oh ye of little faith! :)

 :dremel: :ddb:  :dremel:  :ddb:  :dremel:

(Gingery lathe is now up and running......)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 01, 2015, 07:14:29 PM
Well Steve, I am considering the challenge as I was given some steel gas pipe and cast fittings a couple of weeks back....we'll have to see how the free time goes as I have got a few urgent things to deal with at present.....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 01, 2015, 07:50:05 PM
Well Oz first things first, for sure! :beer:

But great if you do find the time. I've been hunting for my bucket of rusty pipe fittings. I know I stored it somewhere!  :scratch:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 04, 2015, 05:59:52 PM
Hey guys,

For those of you jumping in on this... I will make up some kind of trophy and send it to the winner. It will probably take me as long to make it as it will to get the engines built.

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 04, 2015, 06:15:38 PM
Well ya gotta start somewhere..... 1/2" CI pipe union:


(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt1JPG.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 04, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
Bored 3/4" first, then mounted on the conveniently sized 3/4" center spindle of the faceplate. Bolted the dog through the slot, and started turning the end...

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt2JPG.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 04, 2015, 06:24:18 PM
And faced and turned both ends:

Looks a little more like a steam cylinder now.....

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt3.jpg)


Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 05, 2015, 07:03:34 AM
Have you finished it yet? :lol:....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 11:43:00 AM
Haven't even exactly thought of what I'm going to do with it yet, OZ! :scratch: :lol:

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 05, 2015, 02:59:55 PM
Oh,I see it's one of those 'We'll just machine some bits of metal and decide what it's gonna be later on'

If you want a good laugh you want to see the sizes of the cast pipe fittings my mate gave me a couple of weeks back.  They came out of an old commercial laundry business and there is nothing smaller than
1.5 inches dia  :jaw: and a few are  2.5 inch dia.

I think we may be stretching the definition of 'Model engine' if I use them  :lol:  Maybe I could hook it up to the 1 kilowatt Markon alternator that I have kicking round to provide a back up gen set for those power cut eventualities :lol: ......OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 06:27:27 PM
Oh,I see it's one of those 'We'll just machine some bits of metal and decide what it's gonna be later on' ......OZ.

That's what I call planning ahead.
All the planning is ahead of me!  :beer:

Hey, 1.5 inch bore ain't exactly a mill engine. Get crackin' ! :poke:

Uh, happened to discover a 3/8" mark on my cylinder, so I guess it was a 3/8" pipe union, not a 1/2" as I originally said.    Now it's 3/4" bore, though. :dremel:

So today I dug out a (I think) 1" galvanized pipe cap with a hole in it from an earlier experiment with pulse jets. The hole was off center, but I planned to drill it out big enough to get a boring bar in it, and then true it up to center. Unfortunately that didn't go well. I chewed up the end of my 5/8" drill pretty bad before realizing there ws a hard spot in the cast iron.  :doh:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt4.jpg)


Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 06:38:26 PM
Well I don't have any carbide drills, so after thinking about for a bit I figured I might try to see if I could anneal the darn thing in the woodstove in the house. It had a big pile of hot embers in it (it's been super windy last night and today and we're headed down to the negative numbers Fahrenheit for the next week) -- being well stoked. So I buried the fitting in the embers and opened the draft up, and let her cook. I figured it would also deal with the zinc coating -- right up the chimney.

When I pulled it out cherry red, I buried it in some wood ashes in a bucket. A half hour later this is what it looked like cooked. The area where the "C" is was the hard spot -- you can see the crap job I did with the drill!

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt5-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 06:43:17 PM
Slapped it onto the Gingery lathe, and it drilled, and bored, and turned, nice as you please......cut like buddah!  :ddb:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt6.jpg)

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 06:51:22 PM
So I'm kinda thinking along these lines:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt7.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 06:55:37 PM
But then I thought, nah, I want to see the woiks! So I started sawing away with me hacksaw:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt8.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 07:00:03 PM
(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt9.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 07:40:49 PM
(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt10.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 05, 2015, 07:48:32 PM
Here's where I left it this evening:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt11.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 05, 2015, 09:24:48 PM
It is hard to believe the piece you took out of the stove is the same piece holding the cylinder right now.

Great start!

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 06, 2015, 10:30:44 AM
Well Eric, as I always say, rusty is only skin deep!  :dremel:


....was happy to discover you could anneal chilled cast iron, btw. I didn't know that. Could solve a lot of problems.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 10, 2015, 04:29:32 PM
Since there are no other contestants (so far) I've got this one nailed!

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt12.jpg)

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 11, 2015, 12:04:35 PM
Only half an idea but i am thinking about air driven at the moment and like you vtstream I am making it up as I go along. So far I have the beginnings of a piston.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 03:26:55 PM
WooHooo!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap:

 :mmr:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 05:19:03 PM
Thanks shipto!  :beer:

Well, today I decided I needed some flat stock, so:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt13.jpg)

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 05:21:24 PM
Cutting down on the seam:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt14.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 05:23:09 PM
Then crosswise:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt15.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 05:24:54 PM
And then flatten the pieces with a hammer:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt16.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 11, 2015, 05:28:06 PM
Cut them into pieces and file them in the vise to clean them up:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt17.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: sparky961 on January 11, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
Cut them into pieces and file them in the vise to clean them up

If nothing else, you should get a huge prize for creative misuse of plumbing hardware.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 07:44:54 AM
Sparky, I like them because they are probably the most widely available source of massive and sheet steel and cast iron materials there is. Along with nails, you can do pretty much anything with them. And the scrap supply is huge.  :dremel:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 12, 2015, 10:51:05 AM
Steve,the bits you flattened out,are they made from steel gas pipe or scaffolding tube?

I've got both to choose from but from past experience the steel gas pipe seems to made from a much higher grade than the scaffold tube....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 12:12:12 PM
Hi OZ, the stuff I flattened was from a piece of what we call "black iron" pipe (it's steel actually), schedule 40 (the usual weight) and I believe it was 1-1/14" size. It comes in black, and galvanized.

In my experience it's a difficult steel to try to turn -- leaves a rough finish -- at least with my abilities and machines. I tend to get out the old file to smooth it up on the lathe. The cast iron of the plumbing fittings machines, and finishes out a lot better. And annealing it as I did seems to get rid of chilled spots.

Wall thickness measured a bit over 1/8".

I realized at the end of the day, that I'd made my pieces too small by about a quarter inch.   :doh: So I'll repeat again today!

--it really only takes ten minutes to saw an flatten, so not a big deal - :dremel:

ps.I don't know what scaffolding tube is, but I do also have electrical conduit scrap in a variety of sizes, and fence post tube in several sizes. They're thinner. Tube instead of pipe. I have regular and some heavy duty pipe up to 4" diameter.

I've got some other ideas for engines from pipe. Something about that stuff, just makes me want to build things! :dremel: :dremel: :dremel:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 12, 2015, 04:11:13 PM
I've got some other ideas for engines from pipe. Something about that stuff, just makes me want to build things! :dremel: :dremel: :dremel:

Agree with you,there is loads of potential for different configurations using standard pipe fittings,V twin from elbow fitting,flat twin from a tee fitting. I think you may have started something quite interesting here.

Scaffold tube is about 2.5" dia and available in long lengths to build a temporary work platform  structure outside of a building for construction and maintenance works. It comes in different systems,some interlocking clip together,and some clamp together with various universal clamp brackets.

Link to give you some idea of what it looks like: http://www.masoncontractors.org/images/news/20120411060000-4.jpg

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 05:56:59 PM
Well OZ how about a piston?

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt18.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 05:58:33 PM
(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt19.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 05:59:31 PM
(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt20.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 06:00:48 PM
(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt21.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 12, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
That's just roughed to shape. I have to make a real arbor to bring it down to final dimensions.....
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on January 12, 2015, 10:59:46 PM
Well, as it happens I was at the Geelong Vintage Engine day here in Victoria Australia and, Lo and Behold, Pipe Engine came to mind! There was a chap there with his working model Henry Ford's Kitchen Sink engine 1893. Hopefully this link will take you to a you-tube video. The chap told me that in his model the flywheel and crank were about the only bits not pipe / Kitchen Sink based Oh and of course the spark plug. He was running his on various fuels; Petrol, Fly-spray, Surface-spray, and the second day on LPG as the wind was blowing petrol fumes every which way. He had his LPG torch nozzle poked down the carburettor / air intake.



Or this link has a great description with pictures.

http://www.nbutterfield.com/Pages/HenryFordfirstengine.aspx

John B
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 13, 2015, 10:01:59 AM
Great Find John! Really interesting. That's one heck of a long connecting rod!  :bugeye:

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: awemawson on January 13, 2015, 10:44:09 AM
I'm not really an 'engine' person, but that has even me tempted to make one  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 13, 2015, 11:04:25 AM
Go for it Andrew! :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 13, 2015, 11:13:04 AM
I'm not really an 'engine' person, but that has even me tempted to make one  :thumbup:

Here's one from our very own Chuck Fellows
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 13, 2015, 07:18:41 PM
Nice one, OZ. :thumbup:

Today I flattened and sawed out a couple more pieces of pipe. This time a little bigger pipe -- the plate measured about 0.14" n thickness.  I roughed out some circles for the crank.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt22.jpg)





Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 13, 2015, 07:24:26 PM
I drilled the center crank hole first, then pushed both webs onto the nail crank and super-glued all together lightly. Then I mounted the Dremel grinder onto my toolpost and ground the circumference of the webs while holding the nail in the 3 jaw. I figured I couldn't turn it with a lathe tool with breaking all apart. The grinder is a little slower but doesn't apply a lot of pressure

When that was finished, I re-chucked the webs in the 3 jaw, and put my milling attachment on the lathe and bolted a flexible shaft tool to it. I used a DTI to place a crank hole 5/16" above the center, to give me a 5/8" throw.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt23.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 13, 2015, 07:29:27 PM
Then I assembled the crank, crank pins and webs in the vise. I brazed the crank pin to the webs, but didn't weld the crank. Since I don't have a split bearing on this motor, I will have to assemble the crank in place in the engine when the time comes. I cleaned up the webs and pin with a file. This is where I'm at now:


(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt24.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 14, 2015, 04:10:30 PM
wow your really steaming along, I am still trying to decide what to do about feeding shot of air to my piston.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 14, 2015, 05:08:01 PM
Well shipto, I haven't got that figured out either! I've been doing the easy parts.

I'm thinking of an external cam and piston valve. I don't think I can squeeze anything more inside the crankcase as it is.

Another hangup might be whether I've got enough clearance fo the connecting rod to miss the lower part of the cylinder. This is why people actually design engines first on paper before building them. Or screen.

But it is fun this way, for me. Figuring out the problems I make for myself.  :)

I was very tempted today to assemble the crankshaft in  the engine and solder the webs to the shaft. But I resisted in order to start on the con rod to see what is possible for swing. I've already fixed the throw at 5/8" by brazing in the pin. Guess we'll find out what the consequences of that decision is.

It sure helps an understanding of engine design to try to build one first!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 14, 2015, 05:16:33 PM
You can always make a rubber con rod if there ain't enough clearance. See, I'm full of smart solutions today
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 14, 2015, 08:37:20 PM
 :doh: Why didn't I think of that........
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:27:49 PM
Started on the conrod today:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt25.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:29:20 PM
Berfore and after:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt26.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:32:14 PM
Clamped a nail to the chunk of cast iron, after drilling a short hole to position it, and fluxing w/borax:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt27.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:34:59 PM
Brazed with a #2 welding tip I modified to work with oxypropane. Very controllable flame for small stuff like this.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt28.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:37:03 PM
Then I sawed off the excess:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt30.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:39:39 PM
What it looked like:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt31.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:42:26 PM
Turned it upside down in the drill vise, marked out and drilled through w/tapping drill for 4-40 screws.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt32.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:44:16 PM
Then sawed it off to split bearing:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt33.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:46:37 PM
Drilled cap for clearance, countersung, and then tapped one side of the big end. Then replaced the cap, screwed it down and tapped through the other side as a guide:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt34jpg.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:50:00 PM
Drilled for the crank:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt35.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 06:53:34 PM
And assembled it to the crank. It took a little touch up with a file to remove any sticking points and in a short time it was working nicely. Done for the day,  :dremel:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt36.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on January 16, 2015, 08:43:09 PM
Steve

I see that you have just about got this one nailed.  :Doh:  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 16, 2015, 09:19:53 PM
Tacky, Don! :ddb:

  :palm:
:beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 17, 2015, 02:13:16 PM
I too managed a little time in the shed today and made a flywheel. I took some tube and started working it in my circle turner before trimming it down to join the two ends (i really should get my oxygen bottle filled so I can braze its been empty for a while now but anyway) then 3 more bits of tube for the spokes and a bolt and i have a rather bigger than wanted flywheel but the circle turner is meant for flat stock so I was happy it did the job at all.
I could not find a bolt the stated size so I hope it wont be classed as cheating if I use a bit of bar the right size to make up the difference?
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 17, 2015, 02:40:42 PM
Great flywheel!!!! :clap:


I could not find a bolt the stated size so I hope it wont be classed as cheating if I use a bit of bar the right size to make up the difference?

Shipto, no problem, I think that was a dumb rule idea anyway. I didn't even use one at all (so far). The idea was really just to try to use pipe for most things, where possible. I should have left it at that. I figured the bolt would just give some solid stock to turn down or use for pistons rods,etc. But the number and size of bolts shouldn't make a difference and a bit of rod the same size, seems like we ought to look the other way.......after all you could have threaded an end and called it one!

I'll figure out how to take the bolt thing out, if nobody has any objections.

ps. I don't qualify for winning this thing -- the main idea was to try to get people working on a roughly similar challenge using their own creativity and havng fun!  --- and I am!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 17, 2015, 03:13:05 PM
I've given in to the fact that I need to sit down at this point and do a simple drawing to figure out how long my connecting rod needs to be to get the piston up to the top of the cylinder.

And where I need to put the wrist pin in the piston.

And how long the piston should be to clear the crank webs.

No more workshop fun today. Sheesh! :doh:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 17, 2015, 03:15:28 PM
Great start,shipto.

We can accept your bit of bar if you first thread one end and weld a nut on the other end (a fabricated bolt)

Then you can cut the nut and the threaded portion off and we won't call it a bar......OK? :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 17, 2015, 03:31:17 PM
Or just say you did with two fingers crossed behind your back!  :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: bertie_bassett on January 17, 2015, 04:31:59 PM
looks like your all making good progress :)

afraid ill probably have to sit back and just watch though, iv come to the conclusion I need to strip and clean/rebuild the head of my lathe, its struggling to spin up to speed when cold :(

also need to clear workshop so I have some useable bench space.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 06:29:28 PM
Well Bertie, there will be other mod-ups, and first things first! :beer:

After drawing the cylinder and piston out, I could see I'd want more clearance at the top of the cylinder, since I'm thinking about doing this as a uniflow exhaust. So I added a little height to the cylinder (light blue). That means extending it somehow -- or making a head with a recess. Probably do the latter.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt37.png)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 06:40:04 PM
This brought up another problem. The top of the cylinder -- the flange-- was just a little too small to put screws in to fasten a head. So I decided to widen it. I cut a thin ring from some 1" pipe and cut out a small section, and sprung it down to fit over the cylinder.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt38.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 06:41:56 PM
Then I brazed it, and cooled it in wood ashes for a half hour -- don't want to crack it at this stage.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt39.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 18, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
Make the engine components first,and do the blueprints after :lol: :lol: We're a bonkers breed us MadModders :loco:

I harvested some of the iron fittings from the lengths of gas pipe last night.
Some up to 2.5" dia,they were a real sod to unscrew due to the amount of hardened jointing compound and hemp around the threads so I ended up having to heat them up with the propane torch to free them.

I got a couple of straight cast iron nipple connectors,one of which looks a candidate for a cylinder.

Probably have to purchase a couple of end caps for head and piston.

I also need to split and flatten some tube tomorrow.......OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 06:43:58 PM
And finally cleaned it up:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt40.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
Ain't it a hoot, OZ?  :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 18, 2015, 06:54:44 PM
That's looking really good Steve,I'd think  your design is probably going to be replicated a good number of times in the future for a novelty engine project  :thumbup:

I found something else in the scrap pile that also had 'novel engine' written all over it. A hydraulic brake wheel cylinder with a bore of 1.125".

Worth consideration for a future 'bonkers as a box of frogs' engine.......OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 18, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
Oz I've always wanted to try one of those as a power cylinder for a hot air engine! Future mod-up?  :drool:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 19, 2015, 05:49:33 PM
Conrod shortened and brazed  to the leftover piece of cast iron to make small end:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt41.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 19, 2015, 05:55:28 PM
And some sawing, filing and drilling later, I have the rod done. I hope it's the right length! As you can tell, no milling cutter was harmed in the construction of this engine..... :)

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt42.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 21, 2015, 05:12:16 PM
Hi Steve

I was thinking of having a go.  :scratch: :loco: :scratch: :coffee: :scratch:

Am I allowed to use a nut that fits the bolt or do I have to drill and tap the head of the bolt (or screwcut as I don't have a tap the right size)?

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 21, 2015, 05:52:00 PM
Russell, that would be great. Don't worry about the bolt! If it's an engine made from pipe we'd all love to see it being built!  :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 22, 2015, 11:16:40 AM
Hi All

OK.  I've decided to have a go. :dremel:

I've never built an engine and this seems like a good enough excuse to try.  I've got a few other things on at the moment so I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on it, so it will be a simple engine.

Before settling on a design I reviewed the materials available.

I found some half inch bolts

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/bolts.jpg)

and some pipe fittings.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/pfs.jpg)

None of those gave me any immediate inspiration. :scratch:
So instead of spending hours on building an engine I've spent hours thinking about how simple I can make it.  :smart: :loco: I thought about a simple steam (compressed air) engine with a bash valve but in the end I've decided on a wobbler.

I'm going to use one of the short bolts and make up the missing length with some half inch bar.  The only six inch bolt doesn't have a hex head which I think will be useful.

First I made the cylinder.  I scrubbed the surface rust off a bit of scrap half inch bar (an axle off a luggage trolley I think) and faced it.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/scrub.jpg)

I turned it round faced and centre drilled.  Drilled through and reamed.  I was disappointed with the finish but a 3/8 bar pulled out with a satisfying pop so I decided to go with it anyway.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/cylinder.jpg)

I machined a piston.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/piston.jpg)

I think the fit is OK.  It moves freely until I block the end of the cylinder.

Here are the piston and cylinder next to a tin of connecting rods.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/conrods.jpg)

More to follow. :coffee:

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 22, 2015, 01:04:29 PM
Russell yer makin' the cylinder out of the bolt instead of a pipe?!
Well I hadn't anticipated that one!  :lol: 
:coffee:  :coffee:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 22, 2015, 02:52:44 PM
"Here are the piston and cylinder next to a tin of connecting rods"

 I hope they're 'guaranteed to do exactly what it says on the tin'  :lol: :lol:....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 22, 2015, 03:04:00 PM
Russell yer makin' the cylinder out of the bolt instead of a pipe?!
Well I hadn't anticipated that one!  :lol: 
:coffee:  :coffee:

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective :scratch:.
 First he made the pipe outta' the bolt,then made the cylinder outta' the pipe that used to be a bolt,and next he's gonna' make the con rod from a nail that was made from recycled con rods .....See,it's all completely logical ,and no madness involved in it at all  :lol: :lol:.....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 22, 2015, 03:45:30 PM
Russell yer makin' the cylinder out of the bolt instead of a pipe?!
Well I hadn't anticipated that one!  :lol: 
:coffee:  :coffee:

None of the bits of pipe I had smiled at me - or to put it another way I didn't have anything that looked like a piston that size.

I did wonder at one stage whether I could make the whole engine out of the bolt. :loco: :loco:

See,it's all completely logical ,and no madness involved in it at all  :lol: :lol:.....OZ.

You got it.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 22, 2015, 03:54:17 PM
There's no chance, of me being able to take part........  :(

But, I must say I'm loving, following along!  :thumbup:

Well done Lads!  :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 22, 2015, 05:55:29 PM
Personally,I think you should flatten the bolt in a forge and anvil, and then roll it into a pipe and squish that in the vise to make the nail for the con rod, then Bob's yer uncle!

Why do people insist on doing things the hard way? :)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 22, 2015, 08:01:27 PM
I changed my mind and split the case (after figuring out how I could do that), so then I could braze the crank together outside of the engine. Done. I grooved the piston, but haven't drilled for the wrist pin yet.  I did a little clearance work with files and die grinder, but it didn't require much for the big ends to clear the base of the cylinder. And it looks like the piston just makes it to the top of the cylinder at TDC, so I've lucked out in the proportions guessing game. Current state before cleaning up the crankshaft after brazing, and moving on to head and valve:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt43.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 24, 2015, 09:10:54 AM
Ok.

Here's a bit more progress.

After an abortive effort at making the big end from the threaded part of the bolt a second one was made from the unthreaded bar.  The con rod was shaped to fit the bush by hitting it with a hammer and then filing.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/bigend2.jpg)

It was fluxed and a couple of tiny bits of silver solder placed on the nail head with the bush on top.  I heated it with the blowlamp, the silver solder melted, a little nudge with a rod to get it central and it was done.

It was threaded with a die and the piston tapped to fit.  The thickness of the nail will only give about 50% thread engagement but that'll be plenty.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/assemble.jpg)

The cylinder head (part of the bolt) was drilled for a steam passage and tapped for a plug.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/cylinderhead1.jpg)

A plug was made from another part of the bar.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/cylinderhead.jpg)

The stalk will be cut off when it's finally fitted.

The cylinder head was drilled so that I could take a plunge cut with a half inch end mill.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/drill.jpg)

Then a pocket was milled out for the cylinder.  This was a little more complicated than I expected.  The end mill (clearly marked 1/2") wasn't   :bang: so I had to wiggle it around a little.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/mill.jpg)

So the parts were fluxed,

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/fluxed.jpg)

and silver soldered.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/soldered.jpg)

and cleaned.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/cleaned.jpg)

I think the reflection from the flash flatters in the last photo.  It doesn't look that good in real life.

Needless to say various things went wrong along the way.

I was checking the length of the conrod and discovered  that in my calculations for the steam ports I'd missed a factor of two somewhere.  I had to shorten the conrod and redesign it a bit. :doh:

I had to have three attempts at silver soldering the cylinder head to the cylinder, first it wasn't square and then it leaked.  However it's all done now and the piston still fits.

I've used a two inch bolt and that has provided the cylinder head and the cut off head of the bolt.  I used 2" of bar for the cylinder, 3/8" for the piston and 1/4" for the big end and another 3/4" for the plug.  Given the bits used just to hold bits for machining, parting off etc there is no bar left.  I think the head of the bolt will be a hub for the flywheel.

As an aside I've been thinking about flywheels.  There is of course no reason why they have to be round and for a slow speed single acting engine I'm thinking it might actually be an advantage to be out of balance so that gravity can help with the return stroke.

The steam ports are going to be the trickiest part of this.  After my mistake with calculations the ports are very small and difficult to drill but I'm still thinking about that. :scratch:

More to follow.

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: modeldozer on January 24, 2015, 09:20:06 AM
 :clap: :clap:

Abraham
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 24, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
Wow, cool Russell! :clap: :clap:

You're not the only one moving back a step -- I decided the cylinder wall was just too uneven so tried reaming it, which worked, but the result was the piston is really pretty sloppy in itnow. So I have to make another piston.

The cool thing about this project is you learn first hand what order to do things in, and why, and what goes into the design of an engine. And how to solve little construction problems. Even if in principle you think you already know. All the mistakes are better than second hand knowledge. I bet the next one either of us builds from scratch goes together a lot smoother. And imagine the luxury of being able to use regular stock materials!

Though, sometimes I think.....it's overcoming the problems that make it fun. I had a teacher a long time ago, now deceased, who said "The more rules, the merrier." Back then, in the late sixties, I thought that couldn't possibly be true! But now I think I understand what he meant by that better. It's not the rules, but solving challenges within bounds that is the merry part.  :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 24, 2015, 06:18:31 PM
I turned a piece of a very large nail -- a spike, really, but somewhat bent. After turning straight I drilled it .192 to fit my other nails, then bored it and brazed it and a bit of cast iron to the top of the cylinder by way of a valve guide.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt434jpg.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 25, 2015, 07:14:00 AM
Thanks Abraham and Steve.

You're right Steve - it's a bit like those jobs you do where you haven't got the right tools and have to work out how to do it with what you have got.

On to the flywheel.  After thinking about unconventional (not round) designs for a flywheel I've gone all weird and decided to make it round.  I took a large bit of tube (a scrap motor casing) and put it in the lathe.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/partoff.jpg)

I'm using the rear toolpost and the tube just fitted in without taking the top slide off although I had to take the toolholder off.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/partoff2.jpg)

That's it done.  I chamfered the edge while it was in the lathe.

Here's the kit of parts.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/kit.jpg)

You can see the hub has been drilled with pilot holes for the spokes.  They were positioned by scribing lines from corner to corner on each flat of the bolt head.

It was back to the lathe to set out the holes in the rim.  This is my setup for dividing into 6.  I used the lathe tool to scribe marks on the rim.  The spirit level is used at front and back of the lathe.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/divide.jpg)

Here's a trial assembly.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/trial.jpg)

The next job is to fix it together.  I think I'm going to silver solder it but loctite would probably be OK too.

I've also (I think) solved the problem of how to make the steam ports. :smart:

I've a feeling this engine might sound like a bag of nails when (if) it runs. :lol:

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 25, 2015, 08:33:25 AM
Nice flywheel, Russel!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 25, 2015, 12:30:45 PM
Thanks David D.

Here's the rest of the flywheel.

First it was silver soldered and taken back to the lathe - I decided that drilling it after it was assembled was more likely to minimise runout than trying to assemble it accurately.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/centre.jpg)

Then back to the bench to add a crank.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/crank.jpg)

Then cleaned it up and put it with the other parts.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/parts.jpg)

More to follow.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 25, 2015, 01:18:43 PM
That is cool!!! :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 25, 2015, 02:36:35 PM
Too cool dont wanna make mine now  :bugeye:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: sparky961 on January 25, 2015, 09:29:20 PM
How you guys imagine these engine parts out of the original ones baffles me.  My brain just doesn't work like that.

I'm enjoying following along with this great idea.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on January 25, 2015, 10:14:59 PM
A most interesting project / challenge and I have been following with interest since day one. The problems and solutions plus the ingenuity of converting what many would see as junk into working junk.  :doh: :Doh: :update: Oops! Bad John. I mean, hopefully Working Engines  is well worth the wait. Thank you so much for posting.
John B
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 26, 2015, 06:42:56 AM
Thanks everyone.

No one has made anything run yet Shipto.  :poke:

OK, now it's time for a bit of theory.

The wobbler I am making has an unusual feature.  I've never seen it before so please let me know if you have.

The unusual feature is that it uses the thread of the original bolt in the original nut to mount the cylinder, provide the bearing for the oscillation and to provide the sliding surfaces for the valve gear and a seal for the air/steam.

As the cylinder rocks back and forth, the bolt end rotates to and fro in the nut and with suitable holes drilled provides a valve action like this.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/valvelayout.jpg)

This is where my earlier calculation mistake became a problem as when I calculated it correctly I discovered that the ports were only 1.4mm in diameter (less than a 1/16") and I didn't fancy my chances of drilling those without a much larger supply of drill bits.  Note that the area could be increased if necessary by drilling multiple holes.

After a bit of thinking I realised that the holes could be any size I wanted (within reason) as the dimension I'm concerned about is the overlap of the ports, not their diameter.

So here is a revised version showing 3mm diameter ports.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/bigvalvelayout.jpg)

And here is a diagram showing how if I add an extra port and arrange the nut to rotate as well I can make the engine reverse.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/reversevalvelayout2.jpg)

Unfortunately this has the inner ports at an inconvenient and difficult to lay out 118 degrees. :doh:

So what diameter port do I need for a 120 degree angle?  Back to the calculator. :smart:

These calculations show a degree of precision that won't be achievable in practice.  The mating surface is not flat - I'm using the pitch diameter of the bolt for the calculations.  My plan at the moment is to make the ports undersize and creep up on the right size.

I'm also wondering how much to separate the inlet and exhaust along the length of the nut/bolt. :scratch:

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 26, 2015, 11:25:16 AM
That is very cool Russell! I'd call it a rocking valve oscilator with a screw bearing.  :clap:

What I particularly like is your reversing method.  :thumbup: I think the challenge is going to be maintaining steam (or air) tightness around the screw threads, but I bet you work that out -- and anyway as long as it runs, it's an engine! All around clever and interesting!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 26, 2015, 11:49:55 AM
Shipto, don't stop now, man..... your flywheel is cool and you stuck with the challenge of pipe, which is hard to do. We all want to see it running on something!

If it puts this for-fun project in perspetive,  I had a bad day on mine yesterday trying to make a piston. I went to town to buy a few small pipe caps to turn and replace the piston that was too loose after reaming the cylinder. But the new one turned hard -- I got a lot of chatter in the lathe. So I actually worked on the lathe -- tightening the split sleeve bearing, and taking the carriage apart to flatten the gib and bearing edge. It was probably good to do, since the lathe had sat in storage for many years, but I was anxious to turn the piston.

With everything back together, I was still getting a fair amount of chatter, even at slowest speed, and with a carefully sharpened tool. Probably the cast iron caps this time were harder than what I'd used before. The other problem was that my 3 jaw chuck is just not well suited to the lathe -- it's quite thick, and with a backing plate the work is just held too far from the lathe headstock bearing for a 3/4" spindle to play nice with hard materials. This became apparent when I brought the tailstock into play, and turned between centers. Chatter gone.

Thinking I could finish the piston, now, I got it down to a perfect close sliding fit. I turned off the end of the piston, and started putting in oil grooves, when, crunch -- I broke through the side. Not enough wall thickness!

The new pipe caps were cored out much deeper than the old, past the threads. Part ruined, trip to town and 4 hours of fiddling with the lathe and then turning what I thought would be a great part. Oh well!

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt45.jpg)


Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 26, 2015, 12:03:37 PM
Of course that wasn't an end to it -- thinking that maybe this cap had been cored off center, I proceeded to turn another one, and exactly repeat the same crunch. So I guess they are quite consistent, and obviously, so am I to a foolish degree! :)

In fact, I actually have 4 spoiled pistons now:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt46.jpg)

From left to right:

The new style pipe cap (too hard too thin -- but I bought 4 just in case!)
Piston#1 too big, but bored too soon so I couldn't reduce it enough.
Piston #2 too narrow after reaming the cylinder a second time,
Piston #3 The right size but crunched,
Piston #4 Crunched because I didn't trust the first crunch!

And finally, a pipe plug, which might just have enough thickness to work.

To add to the fun we have very cold temps today, and a super storm headed our way for this afternoon and tomrrow. Two storms actually, predicted to converge. We're expecting 20" of snow in 24 hours. So time to make the piston may be limited!  :whip:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 26, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
Hi Steve

I feel your pain.  It is the nature of machining stuff that parts are often ruined when they're nearly finished. :med:

As an aside I've run out of round nails - I'm trying to imagine what they'll say when I go down to the shop with a micrometer - probably something similar to what they say when you start querying the wall thickness of their pipe fittings.

I think the challenge is going to be maintaining steam (or air) tightness around the screw threads

Did I not mention that it's designed to leak and work as an air bearing as well?  :lol:  More seriously that's why I chose a fine thread bolt.

Once I'd had the idea for this engine then I thought it had to be tried, but the closer that gets the more doubts I have about whether it will work.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 26, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
Shipto, don't stop now, man.....
Was only joking I am finding it fun to work around the problems.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 26, 2015, 03:11:47 PM
Hi Steve

I feel your pain.  It is the nature of machining stuff that parts are often ruined when they're nearly finished. :med:

As an aside I've run out of round nails - I'm trying to imagine what they'll say when I go down to the shop with a micrometer - probably something similar to what they say when you start querying the wall thickness of their pipe fittings.

I think the challenge is going to be maintaining steam (or air) tightness around the screw threads
Did I not mention that it's designed to leak and work as an air bearing as well?  :lol:

I like it!!!  :lol: :lol:

You know, might not entirely be a joke -- it might just be a little faster because of it... fun not knowing what will happen in advance..!: :thumbup: :beer:

Shipto,  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:  :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: awemawson on January 26, 2015, 03:48:11 PM
Sorry to hear of your pipe cap problems Steve. Would you not do better to use a (larger) pipe plug of the solid variety? Such as:

https://www.fastenal.com/web/products/details/4203559

Bet you wish the rules let you use a bit of iron bar :ddb:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 26, 2015, 06:06:00 PM
It would have been Andrew, but I didn't know it wouldn't work at the time I bought them. The earlier cap wasn't cored out the same and had enough meat. Different manufacturer, I guess.

It was borne out today -- stopped at another hardware store further out of town while stocking up on kerosene and LP gas for the storm. Bought a couple more 3/8" pipe caps, and indeed they weren't relieved behind the threaded portion.

I also wanted to get rid of chatter, and had an idea on that score. When I got home, I switched the 3 jaw spindle for my milling spindle which has a 5/8" socket and 2 set screws. Then I turned the unthreaded end of a piece of 3/8" (nominal) pipe nipple to 5/8" to fit the socket. This gave a sort of 'collet chuck" and arbor to mount the pipe cap on, with much less overhang and weight than the 3 jaw had.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt47.jpg)

The turning went really well this time -- no chatter and these newer pipe caps were nice soft grey iron -- cut like butter. So that seems to have been the problem before -- bad pipe caps -- for engine building purposes at least! I might go back and by some more of those caps next time I'm in the area. They were only $1.79 each. Cheap for a piston.

The storm has held off so far this evening, so I was able to drill the new piston for a wrist pin. I used  bit of brazing rod for that, and a few minutes ago was turning the crankshaft and watching the piston move up and down. Fun!  :ddb:







Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on January 26, 2015, 07:16:35 PM
Hi, Just my thought on the air leakage along the thread. Would it be worth trying some of the thicker type grease, - Say that white stuff the name of which I cannot recall? Ok, it might just blow out or make the valve stiff but hey! this is an experimental job anyway, right? And, " anything you try is not a failure but just one more thing you know that doesn't work". (I think that is a misquote from the guy responsible for this -  :smart: ) A fun thread.
John B
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 27, 2015, 09:32:05 AM
Hi John  Yes I was thinking grease might help - read on.

Steve I hope you've survived the weather.  US weather even made the TV here yesterday.

I drilled the ports today, they're still a bit undersize but I think it will work best if I open them out with a needle file when the whole engine is assembled, that way I can see how they are opening and closing.

I did make one mistake in drilling the ports which was to assume that the bolt was bottoming out in the nut (which is sealed at one end) and I'd cut the bolt to fit that length.  Unfortunately that left a gap at the bottom of the bolt so the port was too close to the end of the bolt.

I fixed it by redrilling the port further up the bolt which should be OK.  If I'd done it right I would have been able to separate the inlet and exhaust ports by a few more threads.

Anyway with the ports drilled all the moving parts are done and I was impatient to see if it would work.  So I stuck a nail (undersized) in a bit of wood and clamped the nut (bearing/cylinder support/valve mechanism) to the wood.

To start with I had no luck, but then I added a bit of grease to the threads.

Here's what happened.



Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: DMIOM on January 27, 2015, 09:43:17 AM
 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 27, 2015, 12:52:22 PM
Russell, I'm grinning ear to ear!!  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

That has to be the simplest oscilating engine, ever, too! No spring, no bearing per se.

Just wonderful!!  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on January 27, 2015, 01:30:48 PM
Russell

Give the man a cigar.  :ddb: :ddb:
It's nice to see something different like this come together. Now we will be looking for Mk.II.  :D :)

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 27, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
If I remember correctly, water pump grease used to have a fiber structure that prevented leaks as well as lubricated.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 27, 2015, 03:19:11 PM
Thanks Steve, Don, DMIOM

Steve, you may be grinning from ear to ear - how do you think I feel?

 :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks: :D :beer: :thumbup: :) :ddb: :nrocks:

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: millwright on January 27, 2015, 03:27:44 PM
Well done Russel,  :clap: :clap:  :clap:

 Ive been following this one and noticed very few comments from other members, but with 3277 views as i type this its proving to be a very very popular read.   loved the valve idea, saved to memory for possible future use.

John
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: modeldozer on January 27, 2015, 03:47:58 PM
:bow: :bow:   :clap:  :clap:

Abraham
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on January 27, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
WOW!

Russell. If I said that you were a happy camper I might be understateing it.  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

I think maybe someone should call the Sherifs office and get a roundup going for all those emicons.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice job again Russell.

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 27, 2015, 04:23:15 PM
Well done Russellt  :headbang:  :bow:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 27, 2015, 05:24:07 PM
That's a proper, happy/ smiley vid. Well done Russell!  :clap: :clap:

Is that a BGT, in the background?  :scratch:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 27, 2015, 05:40:50 PM
Plodding along far more slowly than Russell here today -- plowed snow (though not nearly as much as anticipated) but the wind and cold temps made it very unpleasant.

This evening I did get 20 minutes in the shop. I flattened more pipe, and hacksawed and roughed it to shape as a start on the head. It will be two layers thick when done -- this one will have a hole a little larger than the bore to give a bit more clearance volume. And I think I'll just groove the top of it for a steam passage to the valve chamber.

The second piece will braze down over the first. It will be narrower to allow space for screws around the edge. That's the plan, now, anyway...... :coffee:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt48.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 27, 2015, 10:16:14 PM
Hi, Just my thought on the air leakage along the thread. Would it be worth trying some of the thicker type grease, - Say that white stuff the name of which I cannot recall? Ok, it might just blow out or make the valve stiff but hey! this is an experimental job anyway, right? And, " anything you try is not a failure but just one more thing you know that doesn't work". (I think that is a misquote from the guy responsible for this -  :smart: ) A fun thread.
John B

"Say that white stuff the name of which I cannot recall"

Do you mean lithium grease,or was it lard? :lol: :lol:.......OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on January 28, 2015, 01:55:40 AM
Nah Manx, Lard was the water proofer on me old boots.
      Yep that was it "Lithium Grease", "told you it was white stuff" so at least I got that bit right.

     Russel, great minds and all that. Cool little job, keep it spinning. Yea  :med:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 28, 2015, 05:40:35 AM
Thanks John, Abraham, Don, David D, John B, Shipto

Next job is to work out what to mount the bits to.

David D - it's a TVR Vixen - currently in bits. I took the body off at New Year so the body is alongside the chassis so I have very little space to work.  There's more pictures on a rather outdated website at http://www.hockerley.freeserve.co.uk/

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 08:43:35 PM
Stripped the galvanizing off of some thinner tube, and flattened a piece:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt49.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 08:53:46 PM
I drilled and filed a hole slightly larger than the cylinder bore in the bottom head piece, then super-glued it down in correct position on the cylinder temporarily.

I then drilled the valve opening from underneath using the valve sleeve as a guide.

Then I ground a steam port between the valve hole and cylinder hole.

Finally I marked and drilled the cover screw holes through the head and into the cylinder flange, using a tap size drill for 4-40 screws. I did all this to make sure everything would line up after I brazed the second layer of the head on. It would otherwse be hard to locate the cylinder bore hole correctly once brazing was finished.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt50.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 09:02:18 PM
I rapped the lower head piece on edge with a hammer to shock-break the super-glue and removed the piece from the cylinder. Then filed off the glue.  Super glue can release cyanide if heated -- as when brazing, so I'm quite careful to remove it whenever I use it as a temporary clamp on metal.

Then I cut the thinner flattened sheet to rough shape with a hacksaw and filed it down until it was just a little smaller than the  bottom head piece. The small step allows easier brazing.

I clamped both clean pieces together:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt51.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 09:07:42 PM
And brazed:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt52.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 09:11:58 PM
The head underneath, before drilling and cleaning up:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt53.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 09:20:57 PM
I drilled back through the lower holes as guides, and through the upper piece with the tap drill.

When all fastening holes were drilled, I flipped the piece right side up and drilled back down the tap size holes with the clearance size drill.

This sequence allowed me to maintain the head in perfect alignment with the pre-drilled tap drill holes in the cylinder, as well as the valve and bore holes.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt54.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 28, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
A test fit of the head -- I had placed the head on top of the cylinder while tapping, to use the clearance holes as guides to keep the tap square. It all went easily:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt55.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 29, 2015, 04:50:51 PM
It's coming on well!  :thumbup: :thumbup:

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 05:56:29 PM
Thanks Russell!  :beer:

Today I chucked a 3/8" pipe plug in the 3 jaw and turned off the square end:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt56.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 05:58:09 PM
Then reversed it in the chuck and turned off the threads:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt57.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 05:59:37 PM
Parted it off short:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt58.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 06:01:18 PM
Drilled it to suit the nail crankshaft:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt59.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 06:06:01 PM
Began filing a cam profile with a coarse file. To give 110 degrees on inlet, I needed the minimum cam thickness to be  0.539" on the 0.713 blank.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt60.jpg)

I got it to withn 2 thou with the coarse file, and then finished with a fine file. Then I drilled and tapped the boss for a 5-40 set screw.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 29, 2015, 06:08:16 PM
And mounted it on the engine:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt61.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on January 29, 2015, 09:22:55 PM
Steve, that is really coming together nicely,I'm very impressed.

Russel,top job you've done there,and as others have said I really like the novel features you've designed into this engine. And it runs! :clap: :clap:....OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 30, 2015, 02:30:53 PM
Thanks Oz.

 :thumbup: :clap: Steve.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:34:31 PM
Thanks Oz! :beer:

Today I cut some short sections of pipe, and nother pipe plug. Ground the corners of the plug before chucking in the lathe:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt62.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:41:05 PM
Plug corners turned off, and slight rduction in thread diameter:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt63.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:42:05 PM
Nested everything together on a firebrick:

(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/vtsr/vtsr/RC/PipeNBolt64.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:43:21 PM
And brazed them together:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt65.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:45:25 PM
Cleaned the whole thing up on the lathe and drilled a center hole to suit the nail crank:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt66.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 30, 2015, 04:47:58 PM
Installed a set screw, and mounted a new flywheel on the engine:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt67.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on January 31, 2015, 12:39:31 PM
I've done a bit more to my wobbler after showing the video of the parts crudely mounted.  I think it's now more or less finished.

I've made a frame to hold the parts using a bit of pipe and some six inch nails.  A blob of weld holds them together.  The axle for the flywheel is another bit of 6 inch nail with a glazing sprig (a small wedge shaped nail used for retaining glass before putty) through a hole in the end to retain the flywheel.  That goes through the pipe and is welded on the back.

The ports were filed square and filed so that the inlet and exhaust opened and closed together at TDC and BDC.  The square edges also make the ports open more effectively.  That made it run much better.

Another chunk of six inch nail drilled on the lathe was used for the inlet pipe and that was silver soldered in place using my last half inch of silver solder.

A bolt was used to retain the bearing/valve/nut and fastened on the back with a nut.

Here's a picture showing how it looks now.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/wobbler.jpg)

I can't make up my mind whether or not to paint it.  What does anyone think?

I'll do another video showing it running in this state in a day or two.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 31, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
 :thumbup: :clap:

ps, I like yours without paint, Russell. but I'm sure it would look good either way.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on January 31, 2015, 03:50:10 PM
I just realised we only have 2 weeks to finish  :bugeye: all VTsteams fault fancy doing this during the cold months  :wack:
Aaaaaanyway I spent a bit of time today on the fly wheel and piston which I decided to remake as I wasnt happy with the first one.
I started off by thinking about the framework that everything will sit on and made a start on that and then fixed the piston end position, I left it very long as I am not exactly sure how I am going to fix it.
A little bit of the bar...erm I mean homemade bolt that I totally made before cutting it down again to make this  :lol: was turned for the piston end  before pressing it onto a short length of chromed tube and then constructed the outer tube. I am much happier with the new piston.
I am going to have to put some hours in after work if I want to have a hope of finishing this in time  :doh: especially since I dont have a complete plan, so pray for warmer weather.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on January 31, 2015, 06:10:11 PM
Progress!!! :thumbup:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on January 31, 2015, 08:43:12 PM
Russell, I am waiting to see this running painted or not. It looks good. One of the members of my local club has recently bought himself a small plating kit so if it were his I am sure he would add some Bling and nickle plate some or all of it. (Fairly new toy for him, so plating is all the go at present.) Great job
John B
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 01, 2015, 12:53:34 PM

 :ddb:
Got some kinda independant movement out of it just need to work out the valve to run it properly.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 01, 2015, 01:29:15 PM
Hey another running engine!!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Seems quite fast, too!. What's the mechanism???  :scratch:

ps. If you have to turn your computer sideways to see it run, does that make it a horizontal?  :)

Congratulations Shipto -- that came along a lot quicker than I thought... :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 01, 2015, 02:01:47 PM
Sorry working on orientation now  :scratch:
The way its running there I am just blowing air into the piston when the piston is at the bottom of the stroke but with luck I hope to be able to rig up a valve that is operated by the cam I have made *see below* mounted on the back there will be a sprung arm which will engage the valve and shut it when the piston reaches top of the stroke allowing the iar in the piston to escape again.
Thats the plan anyway.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 01, 2015, 07:46:22 PM
Oh, okay, I get it now, Shipto . That's pretty interesting!!  So the offset pipe section at top is the cam.  :coffee: :coffee:  looking forward seeing the valve setup.

You're coming along great!!  :beer:

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 02, 2015, 12:26:30 PM
Hi Shipto

That's going well.  I'm very impressed with the improvised valve arrangement to get it running.  :clap: :clap:

Steve, I'm waiting and intrigued to see the final bits of the valve arrangements on that engine.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 02, 2015, 03:35:43 PM
Thanks Steve, John B.

I've asked a few other people too and nearly everyone thinks it's best left unpainted.  My only reservation about that is the possibility of rust as it's all mild steel but I'm happy to leave it unpainted.

This is the final instalment of my Pipe and Bolt engine construction.

I'd tried running it a few times and discovered it tended to jump around a lot if it wasn't fastened down so I tried balancing the flywheel.  I added a weight (an 8mm nut) fastened with double sided tape opposite the crankpin and big end to see what happened.  There was a definite improvement so I kept adding nuts until it started to get worse again.

I decided to use a bit of pipe to make a permanent counterweight so I parted off a length the width of the flywheel to make the weight.

Here is the engine with the temporary weights and the pipe cut ready for flattening.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/weight.jpg)

I weighed the bit of pipe on the kitchen scales and discovered it weighed about 5.5 nuts, so I bashed it flat and cut it to 8/11 of it's length and curved notched and filed it to fit the flywheel. :dremel:

Here it is glued in place.

(http://www.hockerley.50webs.com/wobbler/weight2.jpg)

I tested it again adding an extra nut to see if my filing had taken off too much, but that made it vibrate more so I concluded the weight was about right.

Here is the promised video.



Thanks Steve for setting the challenge and everyone for the encouragement and comments.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 02, 2015, 03:57:47 PM
Fantastic, Russell!! I'm just in the house for a moment -- been battling a major snowstorm since breakfast. You did a really great job, and the reversing and spindle valve with screw thread bearing was very innovative. Not only that, but this was your first engine ever, as I understand it. Great job all around!!  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :clap: :clap: :clap: :beer: :beer
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 02, 2015, 04:18:17 PM
Russell  :bugeye: I love it and if it truely is your first ever engine then even more kudos to you  :beer:
BTW the name here is Dwayne everyone, I dont mind the use of my handle however it seems a little formal.
I did hope to spend an hour in the shed tonight working on the valve but got a call from a friend asking for help  :doh:
I will also need to pretty mine up too if I am to stand a chance of getting votes off Russell  :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Will_D on February 02, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Brilliant Job - Well done Russell  :nrocks:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 02, 2015, 05:24:21 PM
That's an absolute, CRACKER!!!  :bugeye:

Blummin, well done, Russell.....  :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: modeldozer on February 02, 2015, 06:34:13 PM
Well done Russell!  :bow: :bow: :clap: :clap: :drool:

 :beer:
Abraham
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dawesy on February 03, 2015, 05:02:03 AM
Amazing guys.
Astounding what can be made from some scraps and good old fashioned ingenuity.
Top work :)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 03, 2015, 05:08:16 AM
Thanks Steve, Dwayne, Will, David D, Abraham, Dawesy. :thumbup: :beer:

Yes it's true, I've never made an engine before, I've looked at lots, I've taken a few to bits, I've even put some back together, but I've never made one.

I might not have done it this time if I hadn't had the idea about the bearing/valve which I thought would be interesting to try.  It also appealed as most of my projects use recycled parts from other things.

Since I got a lathe I have thought about attempting an IC engine as a sort of test to myself about how much competence I've acquired but other projects and hobbies always seem to get in the way - especially as I would have to do it to my own design.  :loco:

I enjoyed making it, and it turned out much better than my initial expectations, so I'm grateful for the challenge and the encouragement to have a go. :thumbup:

Russell

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 03, 2015, 08:19:32 PM
I'm starting to wonder if I'll be finished by Valentine's day  :scratch:. We just got hit with 16" of new snow in a day and a half, on top of what we just got before, and temps and wind were miserable -- I plowed and shoveled twice -- it was blowing and the high for the day was -12C. This morning we awoke to -24C, and I had to shovel again because the big road plows had blocked the drive entrance and thrown snow 20 feet in.

Anyway, the shop is finally too cold to stand working for more than 5 minutes at a time. But to catch up verbally, at least, I made 3 different valves and 3 valve chambers so far, and drilled the exhaust ports. I've tried running the motor, and have made as much as 3 revolutions before it stops. The main problem has been the valve -- I was getting some leakage past BDC, which stopped her. I think the latest valve/chamber version is a definite improvement.

I also think the intake timing is too short for running on compressed air -- though it might be okay for steam. So I've been gradually delaying the cuttoff by filing the cam. The valve height is really critical too, and might need more trimming -- but that's easy to overdo -- as I have already, twice!

The flywheel is also on the small side -- in keeping with the style of high speed steam engine  this one is reminiscent of -- but maybe too small. So I added another layer of pipe, brazed on, to increase diameter.

I think right now it's borderline wanting to run. I just need to figure out the valve and timing adjustments. I may need to make a new cam with more lift to get a better seal at BDC. And I may need to add a valve spring, then. Right now I'm just using feed pressure to keep the valve against the cam.

Anyway, I hope we get a little more warmth -- so far it's been a longer deep cold period than we've seen for years here. Plugging away on the engine a little at a time, anyway.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 04, 2015, 04:20:45 PM
I was able to make a new valve  today and work on the cam some more. I think It's on the verge of running -- getting strings of several puffs in a row. It might just need some breaking in at this point. Unfortunately I had to quit to get ready for a meeting this evening. Here's the current state of the engine:

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt68.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 04, 2015, 08:22:26 PM
Ran out to the cold shop for a few minutes this evening after the meeting to try it once again. Loosened the head bolts slightly to free the valve as it was sticking some, and it ran!!! After a few minutes I gradually tightened them down while running, and it wore in enough to re-start a couple times. Hope to get video tomorow!!!  :ddb:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 05, 2015, 04:31:55 AM
 :clap: :clap: :ddb:

I knew you'd get it going. Well done.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 05, 2015, 04:19:10 PM
 :clap: :clap: Well done Vt look forward to seeing the video  :coffee:
I too am much more confident as I finally decided how to do the valve and got started on it tonight, forgot to take phone to shed though so pics will have to wait till weekend.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 05, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
Thanks guys, here we go.......!!!!!   :ddb:


[embed=500,375]<!-- This version of the embed code is no longer supported. Learn more: https://vimeo.com/s/tnm --> <object width="500" height="375"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=118850220&force_embed=vimeo.com&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=118850220&force_embed=vimeo.com&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="500" height="375"></embed></object>[/embed]
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 05, 2015, 05:17:34 PM
That's running nicely, Steve.  :thumbup:

Well done!  :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: modeldozer on February 05, 2015, 05:42:08 PM
Very nice Steve.  :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :clap:

 :beer:
Abraham
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: NormanV on February 05, 2015, 06:43:31 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on February 05, 2015, 10:37:07 PM
Russell

That is a very impresive little engine that you have built. It goes to show what you can do if you put your mind to it. Looking forward to the next one.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on February 06, 2015, 12:14:16 AM
Hi Steve

It is nice to see that even though it fought you at most every turn you managed to make it conform to your specifications in the end and provided a running engine.  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Hopefully this  snow will stop and start an orderly  melt so as not to cause any flash floods this spring. I know that you are looking forward togetting thru the snow banks and into your shop. Before we know it casting season will be here again.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 06, 2015, 09:56:27 AM
Thanks Russell, Dwayne, David, Abraham, and Don!  :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

It takes a fair amount of pressure, being a single acting uniflow and the steam passage is probably on the tight side -- haven't checked rpm or got a throttle on it to see how low I can go yet. -- I might have to drill out that passage, down the road. But I'm excited to have it running, and the sound is kinda like a quiet two cycle, pop pop popping away there in the vise. Much fun!

Now the fun part, cleanup and paint! I won't even ask if it should be painted as Russell did -- mine is a patchwork of braze and bits. Just have to find and thaw out whatever I've got for enamel......

Dwayne, I'm realllllly looking forward to seeing your engine running!!  :beer: :beer: :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 06, 2015, 10:05:29 AM
Wow. I have been absent as of late... and seemed to have missed a whole lot!

Russell... That is a nicely done engine!

Steve, very well done indeed!

Shipto... It's coming along. Can't wait to see it finished!

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 06, 2015, 03:37:02 PM
Thanks Eric, Don, Norman.

I like that Steve, it's nice and compact and looks quite practical for powering something like a model boat.

 :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :nrocks:

Well done.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 07, 2015, 12:26:37 PM
I got it painted, and am just finishing up a mount for it now. It definitely looks a lot better painted. Last thing to do will be to try it out on steam, and then we're done.

(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt69.jpg)


(http://vtsteam.com/PipeNBolt/PipeNBolt71.jpg)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: awemawson on February 07, 2015, 12:52:56 PM
Nice job Steve  :thumbup:

- you have the pipe boiler, so you just need to build a boat around them to finish the project  :ddb:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 07, 2015, 01:36:32 PM
I have a running engine  :ddb:
And here it is, there is a pause mid video where I turn the air pressure up a little.

Changed the plan *again* for the valve and moutned it to the side of the flywheel shaft also changed the cam.
just need to strip it down and paint it then I will call it done too I think. May make it self supporting if I have time tomorrow.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 07, 2015, 02:09:21 PM
Fantastic Dwayne!!!!!

I love the valve action! A really cool engne to watch in action Also, man that is a mighty true rim, for a bent pipe flywheel! I'm watching the rim and it's running damn straight. I know If I tried bending one (and welding on spokes, too) it would be out a lot more than that.

Excellent!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RobWilson on February 07, 2015, 02:42:54 PM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: what an excellent thread  :thumbup: , well done lads  :bow: :bow: :bow:

All three engines are winners and deserve a first place  :med:



Rob
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on February 07, 2015, 02:48:18 PM
Dwane

I had to go back and watch the video a second time to see the excelent job that you made of bending that pipe into a round flywheel. I have to agree with Steve that you have done a mighty fine job of it.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: sparky961 on February 07, 2015, 05:22:37 PM
I got it painted, and am just finishing up a mount for it now. It definitely looks a lot better painted. Last thing to do will be to try it out on steam, and then we're done.

To someone who hasn't followed this thread, they'd have no idea this was made of only pipe (and whatnot).  Wow.  Amazing job.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 08, 2015, 05:32:47 AM
Hi Dwayne

Well done.  That runs really well. :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks Rob.

Russell
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 08, 2015, 09:30:41 AM
Thanks kindly Eric, Andrew, Rob, Sparky! :beer: :beer:  :mmr: it's been great fun working with these guys in a group. Makes me want to build bigger and more action packed engines, like the other two -- I've watched their videos again a few times now because those engines are just fun to watch.  :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 08, 2015, 02:32:13 PM
Thank you all for the praise.
Spent the day today making mine stand on its own feet (which required a bit of balancing to stop it throwing itself around) and painting. Only had a limited choice of colours black, white and red oxide so used all 3  :lol:

I will leave it until tomorrow then put it back together and call it done. Just thought I would mention that this is my first ever engine too however I feel it shows in mine unlike Russell who seems to have taken to it like a duck to water.

Steve I have to agree its been great fun following what you and Russell have been doing and its got my creative juices flowing. Even at this late stage I am thinking of other ways I could have done things and I think I will go ahead and make another without the restrictions of this challenge.

Finally thank you for setting the challenge in the first place however I hate to think what the next ones gonna be  :coffee:

Now do we have anyone who has been quietly lurking and making their own?
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: premodern on February 10, 2015, 09:39:49 AM
I am impressed with what can be accomplished with common materials and minimal tools. I sometimes think that we under estimate what can be accomplished using skilled bench work techniques. In ages past, a model engineer often had a workbench, vise, saw, files and if he were fortunate, a pillar drill. I believe that there is great value for beginners to start with only these tools before immediately leaping to the lathe or mill. Well done.

Hans
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 10, 2015, 03:27:26 PM

Thats it I am calling that finished.
I will make a hook for it and hang it from the roof of my workshop where it will most likely gather dust and be thrown away by my kids when I move on to the big workshop in the sky hopefully many years from now  :D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 10, 2015, 06:24:46 PM
 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: Gee I knda hope your kids will play with it/hook something up to it!  :dremel:  I still love the cam, nail and spring valve action. Dwayne I can see how your inlet valve operates, how does your exhaust valve work?
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 11, 2015, 03:27:01 PM
  :Doh: I forgot to retake the picture of the valve, did take one but it was all out of focus. basically the valve in the up position opens the airway to allow it into the cylinder then as it drops to the down position it shuts off the air and a channel allows air inside the piston to vent out.
done a crude closeup the vent channel is tiny but just about visible. The hole in the top is how I did the ?rebate? to sit the rubber "o" ring to seal the airway.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 11, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
Hi Dwayne

I expect your children will put it on ebay as a valuable antique and make their fortunes. :lol:

Nice work. :thumbup: :clap:

Russell

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 11, 2015, 05:19:44 PM
Hi Dwayne

I expect your children will put it on ebay as a valuable antique and make their fortunes. :lol:

Nice work. :thumbup: :clap:

Russell
:lol: I will find some 300 year old moss and secret it into the piston just to confuse the historians.  :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 12, 2015, 08:50:29 PM
Last day, tomorrow the 13th! Anybody out there have a surprise contest engine we don't know about?

Eric, you promised a worthless prize -- have you managed to create/locate one?

Popular polling for the unfortunate winner will take place on the 15th as outlined in the extremely loose rules! Be there or be square!
 :mmr: :mmr: :mmr: :mmr: :mmr: :mmr: :mmr:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 12, 2015, 09:30:52 PM
Not yet, but I will!

It has been waaaaaaay to cold to really get out in the shop. But I promise, the winner will receive a trophy!

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
And the race is on, the polls are open -- who will win Shipto, or RussellT? Will Brass Machine be able to produce a worthless trophy in time? Will anyone vote at all? Two days to find out, and the clock is ticking!!!!!!!!!!

 :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap: :zap:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RobWilson on February 15, 2015, 11:04:28 AM
Where be the tick box for your engine  Steve  :poke:    not saying I may or may not vote for your engine  :med:

Rob 
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 11:11:31 AM
Rob, I am disqualified, having started this whole contraption in motion. However if someone else proposes a mod-up in future (and I sure hope they will) I promise to fight tooth and nail for one of Eric's elegant prizes!  :ddb:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RobWilson on February 15, 2015, 11:26:18 AM
I disagree Steve (in a friendly way) , just because you thought of it ,it should not disqualify you  :med:   get your  Engine on the list  :poke:

Any way you still may get zero votes  :)


Rob
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 11:45:16 AM
No sir, the rules in the first post state that this is not a possibility, and I wrote the rules!

However should you challenge us to, oh say, create a turbine from a tunafish can in one month's time, and put that to a vote, I would not say no to such insolence!  :poke:

Well, depends on what Eric comes up with for a prize.....

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RobWilson on February 15, 2015, 11:51:53 AM
MMM HUMBUG !  :lol: :lol:

OK , I will have a think  :scratch:

Rob
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dsquire on February 15, 2015, 11:59:56 AM
OK boys.

I've got my vote in. This has been a fun one to watch.  :D

It will be interesting to see what can be thought up for the ground rules for the next build.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheers  :beer:

Don

PS: The voteing booth is at the top of the page.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 15, 2015, 01:51:20 PM
voted although I do agree yours should have been available to vote for Steve. It would be different if you tried to submit something you did prior to this but as its obvious you followed the same time period as us not a issue. However I will bow to your rule making as it may prevent arguments in the future
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 02:27:03 PM
Dwayne, I meant to thank you for your exhaust valve details. The really interesting thing about the long passage for both inlet and exhaust is that it works so well.

I've been thinkng about it a lot. If the pressure pulses travel at lets say the speed of sound (sorry about the units) or 1100 ft/sec, and let's say the tube between valve and piston is a foot, then you'd set up a standing wave at about 550 hz or 550 RPM  (that includes time for inlet pulse and release pulse for each revolution).

So the question is, can it exceed that and also run at even harmonics? Is there a "hump" to get over at 1-1/2 wavelength? What is the speed of your engine in RPM? Does it act as if there's a regulator for RPM if the pressure is increased beyond a certain speed --- all kinds of interesting stuff.......


oops, units problems sec vs min, back in a sec (or min.)  to edit this!!!!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 02:43:18 PM
Okay, let me start again  :)

1100 ft/sec over 2 ft passage travel per revolution would yield about 550 hz x 60 rpm/hz = 33,000 RPM

Okay, I'm pretty sure your engine isn't running up to a wavelength!  So, obviously the long passage doesn't seem to pose any restriction (or tuned exhaust style boost) due to harmonics.

It would seem that a separation of valve and cylinder isn't particularly limiting for a steam engine. This is similar to what David Urwick talked about in Model Engineer (quite a ways back) re Stirling engines.

I've been thinking about this in relation to separating the valve and cylinder on uniflow engines  -- since they seem to actually require clearance volume anyway. Moving the inlet valve body away from the head down to the crankshaft would allow reduction of mechanical linkages.

The guy who got this right way back at the turn of the previous century was HH Groves. That guy was an unrecognized genius -- he was buildng steam model airplanes with crankshaft mounted rotary disk valves and uniflow exhaust a hundred years ago. It's like Parsons -- everything coming together in one fell swoop.

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 15, 2015, 03:45:02 PM
I am ashamed to admit that your talking a bit above my head atm so I will explain the way it goes in my head and maybe you can draw some conclusions from my ramblings.
The engine will work from around 5-10psi up to around 50-60psi at which point the valve leaks to such a degree that the air gets past the O ring and the piston gets a constant pressure, This would probably be solved with a better design of valve but time was pressing.

Anyway discounting the above the air is stopped at the valve until the cam starts to lift at which point the airway open to allow the air through the pipework into the bottom of the piston. The disadvantages of this is that the pipe as well as the bottom of the piston all has to be pressurised before any force is applied to the bottom of the piston. Not only that but the ports in the valve are by necessity small I started with 1mm ports but that was not giving enough of a kick to the flywheel to complete it around to the next valve opening so I then opened it up to 1.5mm which ran but only just, in the end it took 2mm to get it running at the stage it is now. I didnt want to risk going bigger to run it faster as the limited movement of the valve may have caused a problem with it not closing properly. So as you may gather the 2mm hole has to supply air to a 5mm pipe and a 10mm piston a bigger port would of course allow the pressure to build much more quickly and the whole thing would go much faster.

The second disadvantage is that when the cam drops all the pressure is released and so all the air in the pipe is wasted having served no purpose.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: DMIOM on February 15, 2015, 04:56:08 PM
I disagree Steve (in a friendly way) , just because you thought of it ,it should not disqualify you  :med:   get your  Engine on the list  ....

.......However should you challenge us to, oh say, create a turbine from a tunafish can in one month's time, and put that to a vote, I would not say no to such insolence!......

I think Rob's already started (http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,10462.msg118872.html#msg118872) (albeit a tin for a large tuna!!)
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
The disadvantages of this is that the pipe as well as the bottom of the piston all has to be pressurised before any force is applied to the bottom of the piston. 

Thanks Dwayne. This is the part I was thinking about, The amount of time it takes to travel must be very short, though, relative to the speed of the engine.

The long tube allows the engine to run a lot better than I would have thought, just looking at it intuitively. What really surprised me was that you used the same valve body for exhaust, which meant the long tube had to serve double duty. And yet the engine still ran at respectable speed.

The clue to why it works so well, I think, is that the pressure pulses from the valve are traveling at the speed of sound down the tube and back.

If you have a foot of tube, and sound travels at about 1100 feet per second, it would mean that piston starts to feel pressure a little less than 1 milisecond after the valve starts to open. That's the interesting part.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: mexican jon on February 15, 2015, 05:06:28 PM
Well I have cast my vote  :clap: But I'm not entirerly happy with it :scratch: In reality both engines deserve to win as the thought and construction process of both engines is unique in it's own rights  :nrocks:

So even though I have voted for 1 engine I personally would like to congratulate RussellT & Shipto as I believe you are both Winners  :mmr:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 15, 2015, 05:37:25 PM
Well I have cast my vote  :clap: But I'm not entirerly happy with it :scratch: In reality both engines deserve to win as the thought and construction process of both engines is unique in it's own rights  :nrocks:

So even though I have voted for 1 engine I personally would like to congratulate RussellT & Shipto as I believe you are both Winners  :mmr:

My thoughts, exactly........

I almost, didn't vote. And, after 24hrs deliberation, my thoughts were no clearer.  :scratch:

I believe, all three should receive equal awards.......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: mexican jon on February 15, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
Well I have cast my vote  :clap: But I'm not entirerly happy with it :scratch: In reality both engines deserve to win as the thought and construction process of both engines is unique in it's own rights  :nrocks:

So even though I have voted for 1 engine I personally would like to congratulate RussellT & Shipto as I believe you are both Winners  :mmr:

My thoughts, exactly........

I almost, didn't vote. And, after 24hrs deliberation, my thoughts were no clearer.  :scratch:

I believe, all three should receive equal awards.......  :thumbup:

David D

 :doh: Sorry I should have mentioned vtsteam as his engine deserves the same praise as the other 2  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: SwarfnStuff on February 15, 2015, 11:53:51 PM
As said by others, I wanna vote for both as both are unique takes on the broad brush stroke challenge. Interesting too, that after I submitted my vote I saw the progress score and with only 13 votes logged I shall wait patiently to see how the votes tally later.  BIG congrats to both of you.  :clap:  :clap: :thumbup: :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: dparker on February 16, 2015, 12:44:57 AM
I followed this thread clear through and was/am very impressed.  I voted only to register that I was interested in all the designs.  My choice was hard but the rotary type of valve intrigued me enough to possibly try to incorporate it into some future model I may make.  My models do not compare to most of the fine machining on this site but I enjoy reading the posts each day---Thank You for the fine site and many hours of entertainment.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 17, 2015, 09:34:26 AM
Polling closes in about an hour, folks, get yer choices in while ye can!

 :mmr:  :beer:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: mattinker on February 17, 2015, 11:39:58 AM
This is a spoilt ballot, I couldn't decide between the entrants! All merit worthy, interesting contributions!

Regards, Matthew.

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 17, 2015, 04:22:46 PM
Congratz Russell I am not at all disapointed to lose out to such a great well made design and to be honest I am surprised to get the votes I did so thanks to all who voted.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 17, 2015, 04:28:57 PM
Ok guys!

I know I am behind on making the trophy, but I will get it made as promised. It just needs to warm up a touch before I can get out into the unheated shop!

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 17, 2015, 05:05:17 PM
Congratulations Russell, the valve was the coolest thing I've seen in small steam engines in a long time -- that's pretty hard to top! And nicely executed and videod -- with the breath demonstration and also the reversing capability. Just all around impressive, A well deserved trophy for that! :clap: :clap: :clap:

And Dwayne, that is a very fine strictly pipe, bolt (and nail) engine, that I've learned a lot from. The large valve tube clearance volume still intrigues me, and I will have more to say about that in future, because I think it's important to performance and construction techniques for some kinds of engines.   :clap: :clap: :clap:

Also the valve mechanism is really fun to watch and listen to. In fact I've gone so far as to put it through an audio analyzer, and so I can tell you that your engine was running in the video at 261 RPM, in case you're curious! Thank you for allowing us all to enjoy your build,..... and I'm still envious of your true bent pipe flywheel. I wish I could bend a circle like that in pipe.  :bow:

Thanks also to readers too for encouraging these two, and I hope Madmodders will think up more group builds and contests for this new Mod-up section. It's your forum for your ideas in how to have fun with joint projects. :beer:

 :mmr:
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: shipto on February 17, 2015, 05:34:50 PM
Also the valve mechanism is really fun to watch and listen to. In fact I've gone so far as to put it through an audio analyzer, and so I can tell you that your engine was running in the video at 261 RPM
Well That saves me a job I was going to tape a magnet to it this weekend and use a coil with my multimeter to figure out the rpm as I dont have a proper tacho, although I may still do it. The video had the engine running with around 20 psi I believe, I would like to see the maximum speed with ports as they are then try to open them up a little and see the difference
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 17, 2015, 05:43:44 PM
...
Thanks also to readers too for encouraging these two, and I hope Madmodders will think up more group builds and contests for this new Mod-up section. It's your forum for your ideas in how to have fun with joint projects. :beer:

 :mmr:

Agreed!

Not just engine builds either. Anything and everything is fair game for these builds. Want to do something with LEDs? Carbon Fiber? Have at it!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on February 17, 2015, 10:30:00 PM
Ok guys!

I know I am behind on making the trophy, but I will get it made as promised. It just needs to warm up a touch before I can get out into the unheated shop!

Eric

You will be making it from some pipe and a bolt,I hope :lol: :lol:...OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: RussellT on February 18, 2015, 05:05:39 AM
 :bugeye:

I feel like I've just won an Oscar and now have to make a gracious acceptance speech. :lol:

I'd like to thank all the contributors to this thread for their encouragement, kind words and most importantly motivating me to have a go.  I am especially pleased with the positive comments from those members who have more experience in these areas than me and whose views I respect.

The only slight disappointment is that more people didn't have a go.  I was a bit worried about posting my progess on an unproven idea in case it didn't work, but I'm glad I did.  I enjoyed the whole build and reporting.

You should all have a go at the next one.  I'm sure you'll enjoy it and learn something from it.

Thanks again. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Russell

Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Manxmodder on February 18, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
Congratulations Russell,you did a fine job on this Mod up challenge. It was your clever valve mechanism that swayed it for me.

Great effort Dwayne, your engine is also a cracker,and as others have said the rolled flywheel was really well executed.

If I had to choose an engine for looks then it would have to be Steve's as it looks very much like a model of an agricultural stationary engine and in that grey and red colour scheme it reminded me of the old Fergusson tractors.
For looks it appeals very agreeably with my taste in engine design......OZ.
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on February 19, 2015, 10:43:21 AM
Oz  :lol: you, uhhhhh, nailed it! I used some left over paint from my Ford 850 tractor project last summer!
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 22, 2015, 11:10:35 PM
Russell

Need you to PM me your mailing addy. I will get a trophy out to you soon. Supposed to start warming up this way in a few weeks (I hope!)

Eric
Title: Re: Pipe and Bolt Engine Mod-Up
Post by: vtsteam on July 11, 2017, 05:28:46 PM
Replaced all photo links broken by PhotoBucket today.