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The Craftmans Shop => PowerSports => Topic started by: vtsteam on May 15, 2014, 05:59:55 PM

Title: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 15, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Well might as well start back in with a bang, or pop, or hiss, whatever a blown gasket sounds like. This was my all time dumbest purchase a couple years ago. I bought it running on two of four cylinders, and didn't even notice!

I have an excuse, but well, I don't think you're going to have much sympathy.  Here goes anyway. I'm a John Deere owner -- a 1951 Model M, which I have worked on and with for a dozen years. It has been vital to our lives here, dug the foundation for the house, hauled logs to the sawmill, plowed snow, scooped the pond, plowed the garden, moved milling machines and everything else... I'm totally familiar with it, know its every mood and sound.

But then I see an ad in Masachusetts Craig's list for a Ford 850, complete with a backhoe and loader (my Model M only has a pathetic rope operated pond scoop. And it's 54 horsepower compared to the green tractor's 18 (not that I'm complaining about that -- that 18 was "real" horsepower) at a price I could afford.

So I traveled an hour to look at it -- the owner started it up and operated the hoe. It looked like hell -- all patches of different color paint and rust, no sheet metal on it (though stored and available with the tractor) and a lot of angle iron patches and cruddy looking farm welds. But it ran, the hoe worked, plus the guy would throw in a bunch of other odds and ends, a snow plow, extra loader, etc. and to top it off, he'd deliver it. So I put a deposit on it and waited eagerly for the arrival.

When it got here a week later, the former owner seemed to have a little trepidation about crossing our stream embankments to get it near my shed. That's no problem for the John Deere, but I figured he must have been worried about the weight of the boom, or something. He did a lot of revving before crossing the 6 inch deep stream and nearly stalled it out. A bit odd, but I thought maybe he was an inexperienced tractor owner (he lived in a split level ranch house with about a quarter acre plot -- why he had a tractor at all, I couldn't guess).

Well the long and short of it was, I eventually discovered only two cylinders were firing -- after he was gone with the money. Took me awhile to realize that, because, and herecomes the BIG EXCUSE:

I was used to the sound of my Model M. It has 2 cylinders and they fire 90 degrees apart. Hence the common name "Johnny Popper" for these tractors. The Ford sounded okay to me when idled at the owner's house. Not too diffeent than the Deere. I of course hadn't brought a gauge with me to check compression, and never even pulled a plug wire while it was running to make sure it slowed. Just blithely assumed he'd mention something as important as half the engine being dead!

Dumb!!!  :bang: :hammer: :loco: :palm:

Winter snows came early, and I ended up just covering over the tractor with a tarp -- worried I had valve problems after checking compression with oil, etc. or other bad news.

Anyway, two years later, here I am, pulled the head and low and behold, a blown head gasket -- that should be an easy fix!!

Well not quite. Checked the head and it's about 12 thou warped in the middle pulling up off the deck where the blow was right between the center cylinders.

So I'm thinking about what to do about it. Which is why I started to look for that fly cutter I though I'd made last year, but probably didn't.

Anyway, open to all suggestions and help on this -- I'm happy casting iron and building little engines from scratch, but worried about screwing up a real one, for some reason.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 15, 2014, 07:24:12 PM
I set the head up on the mill to see if I had enough travel. No, I don't.

Travel is about a half inch short of the length of the head.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 16, 2014, 03:12:31 AM
Steve, if your travel is only 1/2" short, then a generously sized fly cutter will easily cover it all. As I'm sure you know, you need as much mass as reasonably possible in the body of the cutter. I've had good results with a suitably mounted cast iron 'chuck back plate' with the tool bit mounted in a drilling about 1/2" from the edge and secured with a radial allen cap screw.

Has the block suffered in any way? I'd be very tempted to test it with blue and a suitably flat bit of float glass. Quite likely to be somewhat eroded between those two cylinders.

Not familiar with the Ford 850 - may be it didn't get to this side of the pond. I've just sold my 1954 Fordson Power Major, so just have the Ford 4000 (1974) for all the field work. However as I am in the process of fitting a Twose 276 Hedge Flail I needed a cab to protect me from the flying bits. No suitable cabs at sensible prices turned up locally, so I've committed as of yesterday to buying a 1979 Ford 4600 which already has a 'Q Cab' fitted - sheer luxury  :ddb: When I've proved it hasn't got issues (we all know they only show up AFTER the sale !) I'll sell the 4000, in fact there's already someone locally knocking on the door demanding it

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Sid_Vicious on May 16, 2014, 06:14:25 AM
Just googled Ford 850 and found a forum AntiqueTractorsForum.com maybe there can be some help there?
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 08:50:28 AM
Thanks Andrew, Sid. :beer:

Andrew, I've done just fly cutter work on the iron I cast last year, and the steam engine conversion head. But never attempted a full size automotive head. So I don't have a lot of experience with flycutters, other than the few problems I've come across, ie this is coming from machinist ignorance.

So I don't know how you start a large fly cutter that is already overlapping one end of the head. Do you just come down in Z and start cutting in the first quarter of the work? Then the most of the back part will be cutting on the back side of the fly cutter. And the middle of the block will probably show tooling marks from the back and forward side of the cutter. Finally the far end will show tooling marks from the forward side of the cutter. Then do you lift the spindle, or switch off to return to the starting position to take another pass?

So if the fly cutter is 2-1/2" radiuus and the head is 1/2" longer than travel, I would need to start cutting 2-3/4" minimum in from the starting end.

The local old timey machinist in town told me that to cut a head I should have a tiny amount of forward tilt to the spindle, but not too much or it would make a gouge shaped cut. Not sure if I believe forward tilt is good, seems like it would cause problems if I tried to start past the end of a block in this case, since one end would be cut only by the leading portion of the fly cutter and one the trailing edge, and they would be a "tiny amount" different. "But not too much..."

Seems like I'd want it trammed as perpendicular as I can manage, instead? But like I said, I'm coming form ignorance here, please chime in.

Thanks Sid for the forum reference -- I do know about those forums and have even been on them before, but they generally come from a "bring it to a valve shop" perspective or "buy a new one". They generally aren't home shop machinists trying to learn to increase their skills. I kind of figured MM might be the place to ask people for help, since you'd understand why I'd ever want to do this myself without specialized equipment, or by using archaic methods!

I've even considered hand scraping, since I built my lathe that way, but sure wouldn't want to scrape .012" off. If I could get the head milled close enough to scrape to final bearing that would be do-able.

I've also read about the need for special surface roughness required now to accommodate  gaskets in modern tight tolerance engines, where hand scraping came up as a topic on Practical Machinist forum.

But I wonder if that would really be a problem -- this is an early 50's tractor engine, and compression is in the 6 to 1 range. I'm sure I could roughen it, also, if need be.

Andrew, the center where the gasket blow was is definitely lower, but it seems to be a relatively uniform bow out to the ends of the head. I put an indicator in the mill collet and traversed the head and there isn't a sudden dip in the middle. Total bow is about .012" IN 21 inches.

I have also read some about localized heating of the upper(convex)  surface of a head while applying pressures from the ends of a head to remove or reduce a warp. Localized heating seems a little risky with cast iron, and I think they were talking abou a greater degree of warp than I have.

In case you want to see the 850, as purchased where it stood, here it is in all its glory! Notice the pickup truck snow plow with its lift gear way out on the end of the loader arms.... must have been tough maneuvering that way! I thinke he only plowed his 30 foot blacktop driveway with it.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/FordasFound0005sm.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 16, 2014, 09:19:33 AM
Steve,

Personally I would avoid heating and bending. As time passes it will probably relax back and give disappointing results.

I can see the logic in a VERY slight out of tram, so the fly cutter isn't cutting on the heel, but I don't think it's a good idea in this case. You'll get crossed over cuts in the majority of the face but not at the extreme but the difference in material removed will be insignificant in this application.

I'd set the head to be symmetrical on the bed so the 'under travel is the same at both ends, mark up your highest spot using a gauge, fit the fly cutter and bring it over the high spot having wetted down a scrap of cigarette paper of known thickness there. Adjust to wipe the paper off and zero your Z DRO, move the cutter so it is off the edge, apply a few thou down feed and start cutting. Repeat until you've removed the least possible material to clean up your 'low spot'. The ends will not have the crossed cuts - if you really need to they can be cleaned up with emery cloth on a plate glass surface but that is probably gilding the lilly.

Before all this if I were you I'd have a practice run on any old bit of suitably sized scrap.



Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
That method of starting the cut makes sense to me, Andrew.  :thumbup:

I don't have a DRO, but that's not a problem.

And no glass table, but I do have an old cast iron surface plate I won in an auction. Never have used it.

This morning I stopped down at Lester's machine shop (the old timey one with all the overhead belt drives and giant iron machines) and after we talked a bit about what I wanted to do, he sold me a 1" thick by 7-1/2" diameter steel drop for $10.

I think I'll put a 7/8" arbor in it, turn it down a little, and cut a notch for one of my carbide inserts to make a 7" single point fly cutter. Hope my mill drill will handle something that big. I need 6-1/2 inches to clear the head edges in one pass

I'll definitely try first on scrap.

Thanks for the help!  :beer:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 06:36:44 PM
I'm having second thoughts about the big chunk of steel for a fly cutter. I just seems to big and heavy to use in my mill/drill.

Gut feel: 3 inches dia, or so, would be the maximum I ought to be using, even with a single point tool.

The head surface is 6-3/8" across, so that would mean at least two passes to cover.

I know it's better to do it in one pass with a big cutter, but if I do the sandpaper on surface plate cleanup afterwards, will it be a problem that it was cut in two passes instead of one?

I could make a 3+ inch fly cutter with the inserts I have.

Or I could use a classic style fly cutter I already have -- the type that take a 1/2" HSS lathe tool blank.

The tool can protrude maybe only a 1/2" to make the 3+ inch pass width. The cutter is 3" dia, pretty solid and has  A 3/4" shank. That would be easiest.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 08:19:31 PM
This was a good source of fly cutter info for me in the past:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCFlyCutter.html

I see he has an updated mention of cutter profile here:

http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2013/01/29/using-a-fly-cutter-to-increase-your-travels/

and even mentions cutting beyond machine travel.

I wish there was abetter description here of the cutter shape. Not quite clear on how it was ground.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 16, 2014, 09:04:08 PM
Steve,

I would be inclined to follow your advice from your old time machine shop. The cuts that your going to make are going to be very light to take out 12thou. Your well balanced large diameter fly cutter would have plenty of inertia to cut and you would eliminate any risk of out of flat due to making two cuts. The shape of the tool is like a lathe tool if it's at right angles to the work piece.

My thoughts, regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 09:21:18 PM
Thanks Matt. Yes that does seem right.

The only thing i'm worried about is the weight of the cutter -- 1  inch (25 mm) plate -- it's about 11 pounds (5 kg). Probably 12 with a shank.

It's just hard to picture swinging that in an R8 collet from my round column mill drill.

I'm not as worried about the diameter of the cut as I am the weight of doing a cutter this way.

Thinking I should have planned to make the more usual bar type rather than a full round disk.

Maybe 1" is overkill. I do have some 1/2" plate.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 16, 2014, 09:48:47 PM
vtsteam, you say the head has a pretty consistent curved bow of 0.012" over its length.
This is a less serious defect than if there was a pronounced dip between the 2 centre combustion chambers and is likely to have a better outcome when skimmed. If your going to fly cut on a machine that is slightly short on table travel then your cutter needs to be set parallel to the machine bed(no tilt).
 
The guy telling you about a slight tilt is right but only on a machine with sufficient travel to allow the lower side of the cutter to clear the workpiece at start and finish of the cut.(the head tilt needed with this setup is a very small amount,say1/4 of a degree or less)

Because of the gradual bow you describe I would suggest checking the head studs or bolts to see if they have been over tightened and stretched.

If they have been stretched you may notice some necking or waisting on the unthreaded portion....OZ.

 
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 16, 2014, 09:51:48 PM
Steve,

I would be inclined to follow your advice from your old time machine shop. The cuts that your going to make are going to be very light to take out 12thou. Your well balanced large diameter fly cutter would have plenty of inertia to cut and you would eliminate any risk of out of flat due to making two cuts. The shape of the tool is like a lathe tool if it's at right angles to the work piece.

My thoughts, regards, Matthew

I agree Mathew,I would also go with the big fly cutter and take light cuts and make sure it is well balanced. :thumbup: ....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 16, 2014, 09:58:21 PM
Thanks Matt. Yes that does seem right.

The only thing i'm worried about is the weight of the cutter -- 1  inch (25 mm) plate -- it's about 11 pounds (5 kg). Probably 12 with a shank.

It's just hard to picture swinging that in an R8 collet from my round column mill drill.

I'm not as worried about the diameter of the cut as I am the weight of doing a cutter this way.

Thinking I should have planned to make the more usual bar type rather than a full round disk.

Maybe 1" is overkill. I do have some 1/2" plate.

1" does seem a bit of a lump but if it is in balance it should be ok.

It really depends on how big in diameter the drive shank is.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 16, 2014, 10:20:08 PM
Thanks Manxmodder -- I will check those bolts, then.

Lester the machinist in town didn't know my bed travel was short, so his advice was well taken.

The curve of the bow according to my indicator seems to happen fairly consistently along the head, maybe increasing a little more rapidly towards either end. So I guess most of the material will be removed there.

Just found in the shop manual that .005" is acceptable bow across the whole head. .003" across any 5" length.

I've run into another small problem. I seem to have lost one of the small rotating caps the go on the exhaust valves. It would be a pretty simple turning job to make a new one using the diagram and description of tolerance in my shop manual, and I have the other 3 as examples, but I imagine they're probably hardened, and I wouldn't know to what degree to temper them. Maybe I can find them available online still.

I tried finding it outside the door of my shop with a metal detector, but fat chance! There's way too much scrap metal there in the ground.

Thank again for your help Manxmodder and Matt!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 17, 2014, 03:12:52 AM
Steve
The less rigid your machine the more advantageous is a heavy lump as a fly cutter body. This is particularly so with intermittent cuts as the mass reduces chatter. As you are cutting cast iron your rpm will be fairly low so it shouldn't be too terrifying so long as it is well balanced.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 10:27:32 AM
Good point, Andrew. I guess the main thing I'm worried abut is that the long arm and frequent interrupted cut with a heavy weight acting downward on the arbor might cause it to shift downward in the R8 collet, which could be a real disaster to both the head and the tool, and maybe the mill spindle. I'm not sure what my maximum arbor size is -- I think I have a 7/8" collet in R8, I'll check. Whatever that is, that will have to be the arbor size. Probably would have been better if I had an R8 blank I could weld directly to the fly cutter disk, so I wouldn't use a collet at all.

Spring up isn't good  in a tool like this for accuracy, but it does give you a little protection over massive solidity. I guess the best to hope for if I use this disk is that the insert would shatter in an accident.

I have had parts shift in the past on the mill table after several passes with an interrupted cut, my own fault, true. I know what can happen even with much smaller tools. It's a real good lesson, but kind of makes you gun shy in looking at future rigs.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 01:05:40 PM
Some photos.
As found:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/FordaWagnerFrame-1.jpeg)


Here's the tractor with the head off. I've been scraping cleaning and painting a little as I go. I also have a new manifold for it shown here.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/HeadOff1.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 01:12:21 PM
Here's the proposed 11 pound fly cutter blank and insert next to a store bought 3" cutter.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/FlyCutterBlank.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 01:28:24 PM
If I'm using carbide on cast iron, does that mean 600 fpm @ ~7" dia or  about 380 RPM?

Can I run slower?
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 17, 2014, 01:58:13 PM
I'd run at about 100 rpm for a first starting point until I were sure things were safe and balanced, and maybe wind up the revs a bit if that went ok. HSS wound be fine for cast iron and much simpler to mount as well as tolerating intermittent cuts better.

I'd find a broken centre drill or end mill of about 6 or 8 mm diameter, drill a hole and pop it in secured with a radial hex socket screw bearing on a ground flat from the outer edge. Grind a cutting edge and off you go.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 02:18:13 PM
Thanks Andrew. HSS would look like 50 rpm, which I can't do -- I think 110 is the lowest speed on the mill drill..

Thoughts on the shank:

I placed a 7/8 end mill I made earlier on the blank to see what a shank would look like. Just looks weak to me, and undersized for the purpose. There's a 7/8" R-8 collet nearby.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter1.jpg)

So I rummaged around my tools and found the R8 four tool flycutter that usually ships with these Chinese mills. I've never used it and often read that they don't work well. But I was more interested in the R-8 shank that comes with it -- they are removable, so I took it apart:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter2.jpg)


So I'm thinking of boring  the blank 1.063"  to take the R8 shank stub end, and actually welding it in place. I can plug weld the end, and also weld around the flange on the top side. Then the R8 shank fly cutter can't shift, as a 7/8" collet mount plain shank could. The draw bolt locks it in place and all dimensions are a lot better -- plus there's a flange to transfer the stresses better. This will be a permanent tool, and probably see more use than the 4 cutter one did anyway.


(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter3.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 17, 2014, 03:04:05 PM
Years ago (actually 1979 !!!) my first mill was a 'Mill Drill' with a 3 MT spindle and came with one of those cutters. It actually didn't do too badly, but how many of the tips were actually cutting was open to debate. Excellent for hogging out.

Can you not just bore a hole for it rather than weld it? Welding seems rather - well - permanent  :clap:

For a one off job though I'd weld a shank in the size of your biggest collet and get on with it - easy to over think and over engineer these things - I should know - I'm as guilty as the rest  :ddb:

Also ok 50 rpm is optimum for hss at that radius, but with light cuts you'll get away with your 110 rpm if you don't push the feed too fast

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 17, 2014, 04:57:54 PM
7/8 is much stronger than you think, think about small car drive shafts, around that size,you haven't got that much power going through to your fly cutter! I agree with Andrew about the HSS cutter, slower than carbide and much easier to mount!

Regards, Matthew.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 17, 2014, 10:55:24 PM
Thanks for the sound suggestions gents! I'm sticking to the R8 arbor, but will look tomorrow to see if I can't preserve the mounting method. As I remember it there are a retaining bolt in the end and two keys that slot into the older fly cutting head to keep it from rotating on the arbor. If it isn't too big a task, I'll do the same with the new fly-cutter blank. Otherwise I'll weld it.

If welded and I ever do want to use the older cutter as a hogging tool, I only have to make another arbor. Simple, since it doesn't have to be R8, it could be, ahem, 7/8" rod right?  :poke:

Matt mounting the insert is just as easy as mounting a HSS tool -- just mill a vertical slot in the periphery and drill and tap a retaining hole for the screw -- I've done it before -- see the first of the three pics above and look on the right side to see an end mill/fly cutter I made the same way, using the same insert. It was used to clean up my iron sand castings last summer and worked a treat!

But, guys, not to ignore your good and helpful advice, I'll also make a mount in this fly cutter for a HSS tool, so I can do either. There's about 20 inches of periphery and plenty of room to make additional tool holders. It will always be used as a single point cutter, but with a choice of tools. Best of both worlds?

Now back to my dumber antics, the first step, no matter what, was to mount the blank on the lathe to clean it up and get a pilot hole started. You'd think I could manage that easily, having added shelving, rearranged tools, built benches and cleaned and organized my shop last fall.

But no. I can't find things any more! Where was that stupid shim I needed for my non standard 4 jaw chuck mount to prevent it from hitting the Craftsman gear shift knob? Nowhere I could remember. I know where it used to be -- right next to the 4 jaw on the board I put across the end of the ways. But that's all gone now the lathe is moved to the other end of the shop.

I haven't done any machine work since I rearranged everything 4 months ago. Everything is too damn organized and out of sight! What was I thinking?

Well that shim was a makeshift solution anyway. I really should turn down the back of the 4 jaw chuck and leave a boss to get clearance at the periphery to accomodate the gear shift knob. So that's what I did this afternoon instead of make the fly cutter to cut the head to replace the head gasket to fix the engine to use the tractor to run the backhoe to dig out my pond where it filled in from the flood from that hurricane Irene. Phew!

And I did. The 4 jaw now mounts properly, and it has the fly cutter blank clamped up for turning tomorrow.


Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 18, 2014, 02:31:52 AM
It's a common theme. Tools to make tools to make tools  :lol:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 19, 2014, 04:58:15 PM
For sure around here, Andrew!

With the blank cleaned up in the lathe, I bored it to fit the R8 shank. Unfortunately I found it was too thin (at 1") to fasten using the system on the older flycutter -- it needed a deep recess to countersink the head of the end fastener and there wouldn't be enough metal left so I went ahead and plug welded the R8 shank to the blank.

Then to make sure the flycutter was running true I mounted it in the mill, and mounted one of my lathe's quick change tool posts in my milling vise and trued the periphery, as if it were a lathe turned vertical.


(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter4.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 19, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
Then I flipped the QCTP upright to face the fly cutter bottom surface:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter5.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 19, 2014, 05:04:39 PM
Your having a nice time! Looking forward to the results!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 19, 2014, 05:08:13 PM
And this is where I left it this evening, ready to cut the tool slots.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter6.jpg)[/URL]
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 20, 2014, 05:03:19 PM
Looking good Steve,it doesn't look out of proportion to the taper shank and the inertia when running will help with the finish on the head skim.
Look forward to seeing it in action.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:06:59 PM
Wow Oz, your post came in just as I was opening up a reply to post some of today's photos!  Well, here goes:

I slotted the rim to take one of my inserts, and then used a tansfer punch to mark the hole location for a retaining screw, drilled and tapped that 8-32:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter7.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:13:26 PM
Here's the fly cutter mounted and ready for a test run:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter8.jpg)[/URL]
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:19:28 PM
To test it out and give it an interrupted cut on a tough subject to chew, I decided to face this raw CI sand casting I made last summer:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter9.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:25:25 PM
I started on the back first to get it roughly parallel to the face:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter10.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:34:33 PM
I found I could comfortably cut 5 thousandths at 120 RPM without much strain. Just a light "ting, ting ting..." Sounded like Christmas bells in the shop.

You can see the hardened casting scale as the darker area surrounding the rough sand surface. The insert had no trouble cutting through both.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter11.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 20, 2014, 05:37:49 PM
Looking very promising Steve  :thumbup:

Were you not tempted to take the head to the local engine re conditioner who would have a slide over grinder  :ddb:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
Haha, no Andrew I wasn't!  A lot more satisfying making a tool and using it. One more weapon in the arsenal!

Once I had the back flattened, I flipped the casting over and took the skin off the front.

Andrew what I did wish for, however, was a motorized mill slide! Man that was slow going to get that depth of casting scale off -- I probably did 20 passes total by hand standing there (too dumb or lazy to stop and go get a stool!) And at that slow RPM with a single cutter, I wasn't a ball of fire with the feed.

Good to be sitting down and typing this now.  :coffee:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter12.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 20, 2014, 06:08:06 PM
You seem like a happy camper!!

Regards, Matthew.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 06:20:05 PM
I am Matt!  :)

I guess tomorrow's the big day, with the tractor head.

Interesting discoveries today:

I ran the test casting back and forth to check whether it cut the same at the back and the front of the fly cutter. It didn't. So I figured tram was off. After a cut it would ting on the front and it was silent on the back.

So I traversed the casting back with the motor running and lowered the head until I heard a ting at the back. The difference in height was 1-1/2 thousandths.

Now the interesting part is that in the past with a conventional fly cutter, it hit at front and back. The reason it doesn't any more is because the new fly cutter is so stiff. The conventional fly cutter probably had a tiny amount of spring back, and also never quite cut to actual depth. This new one does.

I figured to correct that small a tram error, I'd need less than 1 thou shim. On a hunch I just tightened the bolts on one side of the mill,  just a crack. That did it and the tings were now equal on both sides.  :ddb:

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Chuck in E. TN on May 20, 2014, 06:46:19 PM
Nice job on the big fly cutter, Steve. Why not put 2 or 4 inserts on it?
Chuck
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 20, 2014, 06:59:20 PM
Hi Chuck, very hard to get those exactly the same depth without some kind of adjustment design. It could be done, but far more trouble for me than what it would be worth in cutting speed.

I only have to take 12 thou off that head, and I was doing 5 thou a pass today, so it should be pretty quick to do the re-surfacing.

The sand castings were different. In future I'd probably first face those with a smaller home made end mill I have, also using an insert. I could dig deep with that, then finish up with the big one. It's really a tool for doing finishing cuts -- and is pretty satisfactory for that, considering the price!!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 20, 2014, 07:54:16 PM
I think you're going to find lots of uses for your new fly cutter!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 21, 2014, 02:35:10 AM
Steve
Rig a temporary power feed using a battery drill. Simple two part adaptor. Bar in chuck with cross drilling and peg. Suitable female on feed shaft. Did this on my lathe top slide for stubby taper turning.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: PekkaNF on May 21, 2014, 04:17:04 AM
"Just in case" sort of idea/advice: Cylinder head may be difficult on mount on the mill table, specially if you need to move it middle of the setup (lucily you can do it on one go here). Therefore I have turned and tapped some buttons that will clear the head cluttery and will provide a repeatable/level mounting surface after the buttons are milled level with clinder gasket plane, pretty much the same way you did that casting few post back. I have used it on few adapters and one cylinder head. The cylinder head needed three buttons and two bars, but then it was really simple to level and clamp it. This probably does not apply in your cylinder head project....you tend to plan ahead.

PekkaNF
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 04:11:30 PM
Thanks Andrew, good idea. I do have a windscreen wiper motor and speed controller, which I've intended for a couple years to make a motor drive. Maybe this summer.  :coffee:

Pekka, that sounds great. And proper! I just wanted to get it done today, and I had purchased some 2" x 3" x 3/16" wall rectangular tube the other day as bearers for the head re-surfacing.

There was no obvious way to hold down the head as it extended the full table width, AND up to the end of the T slots in length. I thought about welding up some brackets to extend over the casting ridges, then doubled back under. But that didn't appeal to me.....

So, uhhhhh, I just uhhhhh, super glued those bearers directly to the table using about 8 "dots" (spot welds) all around for each bearer. Let that cure for a half hour. Then I surfaced the tops of those bearers with the new fly cutter, which made them parallel with the table -- and proved out to my satisfaction that the rig would hold against the interrupted cut, etc. Especially with the much heavier cast iron head on top of the bearers. If things were going to break loose, it would happen at the bearer stage when there was little inertia and weight to prevent movement.

So then after surfacing those lightly, I just placed the head on top and glued that baby down! Here's what it looked like ready to start to cut:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter13.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 04:17:29 PM
And here we are making a second pass over the head:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/Flycutter14.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 21, 2014, 04:21:23 PM
You're getting a good finish there Steve  :thumbup:

I presume that you'll warm things up to release the superglue ?
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 04:23:09 PM
And finally (after 5 passes) it were done!

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Flycutter15.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 04:27:33 PM
Nope Andrew, as they used to say on the Bonomo Turkish Taffy commercials, "Just smack it and crack it!"

A few good taps on the side of those bearers released them from both the table and the head.

I don't particularly like CA glue for most things, not even model planes, but its brittleness does have an advantage here. If you hit it from the right direction with a sharp blow it's wimpy stuff.

But if force is coming from a proper direction (and absorbed by the mass of the head and its inertia) it will hold.

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 21, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
I'm so pleased to see this work!

Regards, Matthew.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 21, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
 :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Excellent result Steve - now blow and flush all that ci powder out of the oil  & water ways
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 21, 2014, 05:30:14 PM
Very nicely done, and shown Steve!  :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 07:10:36 PM
Thank you kindly MM friends!

I have to admit I'm not merely glad to have finished a project this time, I'm greatly relieved to have!!!  :zap: 

Now if the tractor will only run after I get it back together!

For sure Andrew, careful cleaning all around before trying to reassemble parts.

Oops almost forgot, I'm still also missing that little rotator cap that goes on top of one of the exhaust valves. Not quite home free yet......
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 21, 2014, 10:39:20 PM
I've been thinking about this this all evening, and because forums are visited by all sorts of people, many beginners, etc. who might take this as a general okay, I just want to add here that using super glue to machine on a mill is definitely NOT usual or the proper way to clamp for machining.

I did it because I felt I understood what the forces on the glue joints would be for this very specific instance, with these specific parts, with their specific orientation, with the cutting direction of the mill head, and with the pressure I would apply by hand and depth of cut, and that I wouldn't exceed them. It was very important to me to be able to listen to the cutter and feel the cut proceed, and I was very careful to adjust my speed continually to what it "felt" like.

Even then there were no guarantees, it was my own personal estimate, and I did try it out on the bearers first as an experiment.

So don't go thinking that just gluing anything down with super glue will work -- it most likely won't, with more or less disastrous results. Super glue is quite shock sensitive, especially along the glue line, and there's a fine line between the forces of an interrupted cut breaking that line, and having it hold for surfacing. The fact that I could easily release the part with some taps of the hammer in the right place should make that clear.

Clamp securely and in accepted milling practice fashion with mechanical clamps, and work safely. I would certainly have used mechanical hold downs on this job if I could have.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 22, 2014, 01:59:29 AM
Steve
Those valve caps should be an over the counter item for peanuts. Loads of engines use then and valve stem diameters fall in a narrow range so the choice should be wide. Fordson Major, Power Major, and Super Major all use them and spares are widely available.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: PekkaNF on May 22, 2014, 02:13:20 AM
I have a question: How much in total you skim off and do you need anew thicker gasket? Once we read on old tractor shop manual and it had a chart and sparepart numbers, tabulated on "deck height" or whatever it was that describes the "loss".

Pekka
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 07:37:15 AM
Hi Pekka, I took off a total of .014". I think that will be okay because on an old tractor there aren't many fixed parts that also attach to the head whose dimensions would no longer work. Also I'll know when it comes time to adjust the valve clearance if there's a problem.

Of course the head was already low in the center by .012" and may have been bent down by the head bolts.

So, anyway, I think there's a good chance that there won't be mechanical interference problems. A little more compression maybe. But I'm hoping the additional two cylinders firing I get out of it will be an improvement, no matter what the problems!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 07:40:16 AM
Andrew I'll try to find those then.

A check on the internet earlier showed only the whole lvalve keeper assy - for about $30 plus $20 shipping. Damned if I'm going to spend $50 for a simple part the size of an unthreaded nut!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 22, 2014, 09:17:24 AM
Is it the hardened little cap that sits on top of the valve? Dead easy to make! A bit of tool steel "reclaimed" annealed from an old chisel or something!  Tempered dark straw at a guess. That way your sure to find the one you lost!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 09:26:17 AM
Hi Mattinker:

That's what I was thinking -- I even have some nice new water hardening 1/2" drill rod (silver steel)

Here are the three exhaust valve caps that I have.

I'm starting to wonder if there actually were 4 on this tractor when I got it. I just noticed that one of the valve pushrod ball ends is dirty and varnished over, while the other 7 are shiny. Was that rod even contacting?

The dimensions of these rotators are:

OD .475" (all)
ID   .350" (all)
Length  .311" (2)  .305" (1)  (length gets adjusted per valve when fitting -- probably all started out .3125")
Cap end thickness ~.040" (all)

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Rotators.jpg)


When fitting, according to the Ford Service Manual the end clearance inside the cap should be .002"-.004" and you shorten the cap to fit the valve.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 22, 2014, 09:31:10 AM
Hi Pekka, I took off a total of .014". I think that will be okay because on an old tractor there aren't many fixed parts that also attach to the head whose dimensions would no longer work. Also I'll know when it comes time to adjust the valve clearance if there's a problem.

Of course the head was already low in the center by .012" and may have been bent down by the head bolts.

So, anyway, I think there's a good chance that there won't be mechanical interference problems. A little more compression maybe. But I'm hoping the additional two cylinders firing I get out of it will be an improvement, no matter what the problems!

Steve,I think Pekka may be reffering to the thicker head gaskets that are prescribed when a diesel cylinder head has been skimmed.

These thicker gaskets are used to ensure the bump clearances and compression remain in spec on diesels where compression height tolerances can be fairly tight.

Yours being petrol and in the region of 6:1 ratio isn't going to be negatively affected by 15 thou reduction and the associated rise in compression ratio.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 22, 2014, 09:36:57 AM
Steve, I was thinking along the same lines a couple of days back about the missing valve cap and wondering if the missing cap was the cause of the engine not running on all cylinders.

Was the head gasket physically damaged when you inspected it?.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 09:42:03 AM
Oz it was blown in the middle between 2 and 3 cylinders. Of course a bad valve could have been in that area, too. Sorry I didn't note what looked like what when I pulled the head and valve gear. The big gasket break was what caught my attention.

I guess if I do end up tryi ng to make another cap, the trick will be the .350" bore and flat face inside. Might have to actually make a rose cutter or something to cut that.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 09:49:20 AM
Had another thought about that dirty pushrod end.....ugh... hope there's nothing wrong with the cam and lifter.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 22, 2014, 10:24:44 AM
When I took the rocker cover off my old 1954 Fordson Power Major years ago to cure an oil leak, at first I thought someone had fitted a wrong push rod as one rocker was at a significantly different angle from the rest. I then noticed that the valve cap was missing. Had to get on cutting the field so it went back 'as was' and I used it for four years like that with no issues. Totally forgot about it until just now.

I'd have told the chap who bought it if I'd remembered  :bang:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
I'm not surprised Andrew -- I read somewhere that the caps were an after sale addition -- recall style, on some of the earlier engines to prolong exhaust valve life. Mine I believe is one of the earliest 800 series tractors -- serial number is only in the 9000's).

I believe the 800 series (mine's an 850, meaning it has a 5 speed transmission instead of a 4) was the beginning of the 172 Cu in engine -- earlier engines were 134 CI. So anyway, I've heard of engines without them, and others where people took them off for some reason.

Anyway, though that all may be true, I think I'll try to get 4 of those rotators back in the engine one way or another.

I have a lead on a local guy who works on tractors, and might have one. The big tractor dealers have all closed in  this area over the last 5 years.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: RussellT on May 22, 2014, 12:17:05 PM
That worked well.  I would never have dared to mill it with superglue clamps.  :clap: :clap: I think I'd have been putting bolts through the valve holes.

Do you have a part number for the missing part?  Is this any help?

http://www.nospartsltd.com/product-p/8eq6550a.htm (http://www.nospartsltd.com/product-p/8eq6550a.htm)

Russell
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 22, 2014, 12:54:23 PM

I guess if I do end up tryi ng to make another cap, the trick will be the .350" bore and flat face inside. Might have to actually make a rose cutter or something to cut that.

Make a miniature boring bar. The flat bottomed hole, use a modified two flute end mill as a boring bar, face off the bottom of the hole from the centre.

Regards, Matthew.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 01:12:51 PM
Russell I got the idea from a description by Tubal Cain in his book "Simple Workshop Devices" where he describes turning washers to thickness on a faceplate, adhering them with Turner's Cement -- in that case resin and beeswax. After turning to thickness, they are released with a rap from a mallet.

I know I've read somewhere else, probably online that super glue has been used for something similar in more recent years.

After milling the test sand casting with the new fly cutter I had a feel for what a 5 thou cut would feel like with this rig. It was a very light tapping of the casting -- not a great deal of force. After wrestling the head onto the mill, it seemed like the weight and inertia of the head alone could almost resist that force --  I thought that if I could just stop it from sliding with a positive stop, or having it lift, it would take care of itself.

Since the head was a lot longer than it was tall, I figured a line of glue tacks along that direction would do both. Kind of like putting a heavy weight on top of a bench and trying to push it lengthwise on grass. You can't, even though grass has negligible strength. The front legs are immobile. The bench will only pivot upwards at the pushing end. It can not slide. It doesn't take much friction to prevent sliding, which is why wheels were invented.

Super glue basically increased the "friction" of the milling table. It is strong in tension, so the glue under the near end only has to resist upwards pivoting forces - and those are low because the glue and bearers are directly under that end. Not much of a lift vector. There was almost no overhang. Plus a very light cut. And the glue at the far end only has to act as friction. Like a trip or a stop. Well it was dotted with glue all along its length, too.

Anyway, I estimated it would work. And as a test I surfaced the bearers -- they have much less mass to absorb the milling forces. And they held. So adding a big heavy mass of cast iron on top of that could only improve "friction", down force at the ends, and standing inertia. I don't think any of the glue spots felt much force at all.

Of course when I took a hammer to the bearers from the side (not down the length, which lines up the glue spots) super glue's poor resistance to shock loads made it release.

Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 01:38:30 PM

I guess if I do end up tryi ng to make another cap, the trick will be the .350" bore and flat face inside. Might have to actually make a rose cutter or something to cut that.

Make a miniature boring bar. The flat bottomed hole, use a modified two flute end mill as a boring bar, face off the bottom of the hole from the centre.

Regards, Matthew.

Maybe just a homemade square ended D-bit would do it, after drilling undersized?

It's raining and will for a couple days, and I've called the traactor guy twice with no answer. Seems like a perfect rainy day project....
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 22, 2014, 02:13:21 PM
Here you go Steve, no special tooling needed at all:

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9466.0.html

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 22, 2014, 02:40:35 PM
[

Maybe just a homemade square ended D-bit would do it, after drilling undersized?

It's raining and will for a couple days, and I've called the traactor guy twice with no answer. Seems like a perfect rainy day project....

Or a drill bit ground straight!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 06:28:32 PM
Great tips! :thumbup:

Too late!  I had already headed out to the shop and started to make an olde tyme slot drill.  :dremel:

Now I want to see if it will work!  :zap:

Turned the endd of some half inch drill rod to .350"

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/SlotDrill1.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 06:30:37 PM
Relieved both sides to leave a .100" thick piece (fake metric) :

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/SlotDrill2.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 06:31:34 PM
Filed relief into the sides and the end:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Lathe/SlotDrill3.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 06:36:40 PM
To bed early gentlemen for tomorrow we temper steel with the blood of the stream for our greatest trial!

(ie. water....)


After that........

probably retreat to one or the other above sensible tips!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 22, 2014, 07:47:49 PM
I spoke with the tractor repair man this evening. He doesn't think he has a cap, but will look around tomorrow. He said he has a complete head, So if something goes awry, I guess that's backup.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 23, 2014, 03:13:55 AM
You are supposed to temper silver steel in the blood of a virgin, but they are increasingly hard to find these days  :ddb:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:37:21 PM
The stream was close by! Anyway it was a simple matter this morning to heat the drill to cherry red and dunk it in a cup of cold water. I decided not to temper it -- I haven't had a problem with chipping or cracking for small low speed tools, which this definitely is, and the extra hardness helps I think.

I set up some half inch drill rod in the lathe using the 4 jaw chuck ( I still don't have a collet chuck) and used a center drill to start a hole in the end. Then chucked up a Q size drill in the Jacobs chuck to get me somewhere near the .350" desired finish dimension and drilled about 0.3" deep.

Then with a little trepidation I chucked the new olde tyme slot drill in the Jacobs, brought it to bear on the drill rod with a little oil and started drilling. I was using my slowest back gear speed. No problem, the darn thing started to drill!

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill4.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
What I liked about this drill was that it faced the end as well as the sides of the hole, acting like a reamer and drill at once.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill5.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:46:17 PM
Measuring the bore. After hardening I had stoned all cutting edges, and the final drill was about a thousandth undersize -- but I figured I might gain that back when drilling the hole -- which worked out well. .350" was the target, and though not a critical dimension for this application, was nice to hit as intended. I'm now a great fan of making cutters like this for odd size bores. A lot faster than boring to size for a project like this. And it's repeatable for the future, in case I lose one of these little caps again. Just chuck it in the Jacobs and go.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill7.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:48:26 PM
After drilling out the bore, I turned down the outside to .475" without removing the rod from the chuck:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill6.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 23, 2014, 02:49:26 PM
Satisfaction ;--)

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:55:14 PM
Then cut it off a little long with a hacksaw. Sorry to say I've had problems parting in my lathe in the past, and I didn't want to take a chance on this part.

Unfortunately also my 4 jaw chuck was at it's limit turning the half inch rod. The jaws won't close much tighter, so I had to switch to the 3 jaw to face the ends. But that wasn't a critical operation.I left the cap about .01" long to allow fitting exactly for proper clearance on the actual valve. I chamfered the top end and finally ran the top and bottom over an oilstone to smooth them down.


(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill10.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 02:58:12 PM
(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill8.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 23, 2014, 03:13:53 PM
Last operation was to harden and this time, temper the cap. Hardening was repeated the same way with the MAPP torch and cup of water.

But for tempering I wanted to go slowly and create an even temper, and it's kind f hard to control with a torch on such a small part. So I decided to try the electric toaster oven in our kitchen (with permission!). I figurd that would be a lot slower heating process, and more even. I set the temperature to 375 F and let it warm for 10 minutes.


When I thought things were up to temp I checked the broiler pan with a non-contact thermometer I got from Harbor Freight. I was shooting for a 399F light straw temper, but unfortunately, as I suspected, the oven was far from accurate (415 F) or consistent. It tended to overshoot quite a bit. So then I just dropped in the part, turned the stove up or down, by hand while checking frequently with the thermometer. That worked well and after ten minutes or so I pulled the cap out and saw a very light straw on the polished end. Done!

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/SlotDrill11.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Sid_Vicious on May 23, 2014, 04:25:35 PM
Looks real good, you solved it nicely.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 24, 2014, 07:53:03 AM
Thanks Matt, Sid!  :beer:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 24, 2014, 08:20:19 AM
 Well done Steve, I love the way you have approached and resolved the warped head and the missing valve cap.

Where there's a will there is a way  :dremel:  :clap:

On the subject of using super glue to mount awkward workpieces such as the method you refer to in Tubal Cain's book,I have previously used this technique to reduce the thickness of crankshaft thrust bearing washers.
The washers being super glued on the bearing face to a piece of faced bar held in the lathe chuck and then skimmed according to dimensional requirements.

On the point of your concerns about the cam and follower condition,you could easily mount a mag based DTI on top of the engine block and check to see how the lift of that cam lobe compares with neighbouring ones.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 07:12:30 PM
Thanks Manxmodder!  :beer: Good to hear you use the glue method for washers. It's a real handy thing to have in the arsenal!

I didn't use a magnetic base DTI to measure the lift, thought that's a great idea! kinda didn't want to know! I just wanted to see that one valve lift (exhaust #1 cylinder) to make sure there wasn't a broken lobe or stuck lifter, but more than that -- well this isn't a restoration, but a working tractor/bckhoe. It will probably see under 100 hours of use a year. But if it runs it will certainly pay its purchase cost back quickly -- machine time around here is about $150/hr. So for now, I just want t get it running.

This morning I cleaned the head and rocker arm assembly in kerosene (paraffin), and chased all the holes in the block and head, preparatory to re-,mounting. Then I scraped the deck and cleaned the cylinders as best I could. I'd squirt a little 30 weight around the pistons, and turn the crank by hand, then wipe the cylinders out again. i did that 5 times, and the oil came out clean.

When everything looked ready I set the head down on the deck and stopped to take a picture -- always a nice turning point to be adding things again, rather than taking them off.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Head1.jpg)

Then I set the new head gasket in place
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 08:27:59 PM
I decided to try the valve rocker assembly before actually torquing the head down in case there was a problem with cam or tappets  in #1. I didn't want to squish the gasket in case I had to remove the head again. I wanted to  turn the engine by hand and watch the valve openings.

I fastened the head down lightly, and bolted the rocker towers in. Number one cylinder valves appeared to work properly when i tried them, as did the rest of the valves. But I noticed that the #1 exhaust valve rocker arm was out of alignment with the new valve rotator cap:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Head2.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 08:32:16 PM
I pushed it over toward the aluminum bracket, and it lined up properly then. There was a spring and a washer that kept it away from that bracket. This didn't seem right. Checking the other end of the rocker shaft, I saw that there were 2 washers on the end with the spring trapped between them -- that seemed to make more sense.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Head3.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 08:38:58 PM
So it became apparent that someone during the life of this tractor had disassembled the rocker shaft, and then replaced the spring and washer in the wrong place. I verified this in the Ford Service manual.

But not only that, this particular rocker arm and pushrod was the pair that had varnish on the ball and socket joint -- they weren't shiny like the others in the assembly. I'm going to guess that this misalignment along with one other factor had caused the loss of that rocker cap long ago. The loss of the cap probably loosened caused a great deal of valve lash, and probably a very short exhaust timing.

That other factor was the fitting of the caps themselves, which was badly out of spec..
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 09:31:44 PM
I removed the rocker arm assembly, pulled the cotter pin and rearranged the spring and washer in their proper locations.

With everything looking correct, it was time to fit the valve rotator caps. I assumed the three I had from the tractor originally were all correct -- I just needed to figure out which one went where. Wrong!! :bang:

Well, there was first a pause while I figured out just how I was going to be able to ensure the .002-.004" clearance they each had above the valve stems. I tried a few methods -- including Manxmodder's earlier suggestion of using a magnetic based indicator. But nothing I tried worked well enough to give me a consistent reading.  The main problem was that the valve stem was recessed in the spring and there was nothing to compare its height to. Finally I realized that I could use a small 1/4" drive socket to serve as a spacer on top of the valve retainer. I could set my caliper end on top of that and measure the depth from the top of the socket to the valve stem, then subtract the socket height (.850") to get the height of the stem above the retainer. The depth of the caps needed to be .003" more than this height.

I got consistent readings using the socket and caliper method and started sizing the caps. Well surprise, surprise, they were WAY off!  :(

None of these caps had been fitted properly to the valve stems. They varied from 20 to 50 thou too long. So with a fair amount of work grinding and checking many times with the calipers and finally when getting close, hand stoning them.  I ground them all to .003" clearance for their respective valves.

I think that some prior owner had simply placed aftermarket caps on the valves, without fitting them. This in combination with the misaligned rocker arm may have spelled the loss of that #1 exhaust cap. I wouldn't be surprised if it (or pieces of it) are located in the oil pan.

Or perhaps the owner had simply lost the cap.  I did  wonder for a moment whether the warped head had been the result of the lack of a manual and/or torque wrench by this particular mechanic.

Well, no matter, that job done, it was time to torque down the head. The manual gave 65-70 foot pounds as the figure, and I followed the bolt torquing sequence in 3 stages. The I reattached the rocker arm assembly with the oil lines this time, and torqued it down to 45-50 ft/pounds,per the manual.

I blast cleaned the spark plugs, set the gaps, and screwed them into the head. It was beginning to look like a functioning engine:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Head4.jpg)


Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 26, 2014, 09:45:00 PM
(just broke 2000 posts here today)  :beer: to all!

  :nrocks:  :nrocks:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: RussellT on May 27, 2014, 04:35:02 AM
You can't leave us hanging there just when it's getting exciting. :D

It's looking good.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 27, 2014, 05:03:25 AM
Steve it's looking good  :thumbup:

Presumably the 3 thou clearance to the valve spring retaining collets is just a minimum - I can't see that 10 thou more would make a jot of a difference as the cap just needs not to be resting on the collet, but only contacting the end of the valve stem.

Looking forward to seeing it running  :wave:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 07:43:35 AM
RussellT sorry about that -- it was supper time and I had to cover the tractor up with rain threatening and put away the tools manuals etc. that I had scattered about!

Andrew it's the other way round -- the clearance is to the head of the valve stem. The cap rests on the valve lock/retainer, not the valve stem. When the rocker arm comes down it depresses the spring (through the retainer) in advance of contacting the valve stem head. This presumably frees the valve and allows it to rotate. the delay is short since the spec calls for .002" to .004" total clearance. What I found was .020" - .050". In other words the caps were too long, not too short (probably as received, rather than fitted). This would have added a fair amount to the normal valve lash of .014" - .016".

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Head5.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 27, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Well you learn something every day !

Never come across that set up before, and I've pulled the odd engine apart in my time  :scratch:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 27, 2014, 01:17:55 PM
Well you learn something every day !

Never come across that set up before, and I've pulled the odd engine apart in my time  :scratch:

Me too!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 27, 2014, 03:20:09 PM
Interestingly, googling this for a bit of online research I find that one technique to promote valve rotation is to offset the rocker slightly from the centre of the valve, like your #1 was. Also I find that it's not a technique now recommended especially for diesels.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
Well I've never seen it before either! But figured I'd better follow the manual. Anyway it's done.

Well if we're going to try to start this thing some time soon I needed to go shopping for uhhh..groceries:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Fluids.jpg)

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 07:35:28 PM
So the first real project of the day was to drain the oil. That proved a real bear! I could not get a wrench to turn the oil drain plug.  You know how it is, lying on the dirt under the tractor, trying to stay far enough away that an accidental oil gusher misses your face, trying first an open end wrench -- no size seems to fit, or turn the plug, everything is too large or too small. Then trot up to the house to get a pipe wrench, since this seems like it must have been a square plug at one time, now rounded over. That doesn't work (a first -- it will even turn pipe, how can it not grip this plug?) then vise grips. They clamp, then slip.

Doggone it! How do I get this off. Then I notice chisel marks along the rim of this weird plug. Oh so that's it! Bang it round with a chisel.

So I dig around in the shop and return with a cold chisel and a hammer and start banging. Not easy hammering in that position, and I hit my wrist a good one at one point. Eventually the plug begins to budge but takes three more hits to really come loose.

Once it's out I can see the problem, It's just a soft cast iron plumbing drain plug with a rubber washer, and all of the square corners worn off -- it's huge by today's standards -- 3" across:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Oilcap1.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
Well I don't want to put that back in and have to rely on a chisel to drain the oil in future. I briefly consider milling the sides straight again, but realize the square plug is cast hollow, and there isn't enough meat to mill off the rounded corners.

So I decide to fill in the corners with new weld metal. It's a small piece and I think I can get away with using 7018 rod to build it up, without cracking. So I clean it in MEK first and use the grinder to get to clean metal preparatory to welding:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Oilcap2.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 07:53:54 PM
The welding went successfully, and I ground the sides and corners square again. Sorry I forgot to take a photo. I painted the plug, and an hour later reinstalled it in the oil pan. A 1" open end wrench fit it perfectly.

Because the old oil was such an evil looking mess, I decided to give the engine a rinse with some kerosene. I poured two  quarts in and let it sit a couple hours before draining again. I think that really helped clean the pan better, from the looks of it. Finally I re-tightened the drain plug and added 5 quarts of fresh oil to the crankcase.

I also changed the oil filter and started the manifold onto its studs:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/reassembly1.jpg)[/URL]
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 08:34:47 PM
I attacked the gas tank next. There was about a pint of old sour gasoline still in the tank, and I wanted to get that out  before mounting the tank on the tractor again. Not so easy. A flange around the filler hole blocked it from being poured that way. And the gas cock on the bottom of the tank didn't work well to drain the remaining fuel. There was a screen filter inside the tank and I had to shake the tank to get dribs and drabs out. Finally about a half a cup remained, and I called it done.

While the tank was upside down I noticed that it had been repaired -- there were stains around what looked like some loose filler. Yup, a hole, about 3/16" had been repaired with some kind of filler, that had deteriorated and was loose. I removed it and cleaned the area with moistened sandpaper (very slowly and carefully!) followed with a wipe of MEK and sealed it with a tube of goop I had in the shop that said it was specifically suitable for plugging gasoline tank leaks. Hope it does!

Next, it was time to remove the carburetor from the old manifold and check it. The glass sediment bowl was brown with varnish (not a good sign). I cleaned the sediment out, and painted the bowl with an orange based paint stripper. That cleaned it crystal clear again, Then I opened up the carburetor, expecting bad things. But it was surprisingly clean, and looked like a recently rebuilt carb. The only thing that probably should be replaced is the screen and cork gasket over the sediment bowl, since that looked to have started to deteriorate.

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 27, 2014, 08:53:52 PM
I put the Zenith back together again, and decided to torque the manifold first before mounting the carb. Another simple job that took longer than anticipated. The old manifold had come loose easily with just a socket wrench and extension. But the new one (made in Turkey) seemed to have bigger passages and thicker cruder castings.

As a result, the socket wrench could no longer be used for all the bolts. Some needed a box end wrench, some needed an open end, and there was barely enough room to turn some of the nuts even then. One washer had to be omitted because there just wasn't room for it. I couldn't torque it because I couldn't get a socket on all the bolts. So in the end I just had to estimate.

At about this time my weather/emergency radio started beeping furiously in the shop. I at first thought a piece of equipment was sounding the alarm -- though I actually don't have anything like that! Finally I realized i was the emergency radio. I hit the button and got a message from the emergency management system that a really bad thunderstorm was approaching the county just to the north of us. 60 mph winds, and golf ball sized hail they said! Also it was in slow rotation, and they would issue additional warnings if a tornado started to form.

Time to put away tools and cover the tractor. I had just got the carburetor mounted, and grabbed a photo before chasing down the tarp, which the wind had moved to a nearby bush. Here is the tractor at the end of the day:

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/reassembly2.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: DavidA on May 28, 2014, 06:37:44 AM
VT,

...I poured two  quarts in and let it sit a couple hours before draining again...

This could cause you problems.

I suspect that you may have just softened up the gunge that is laying on the bottom of the crankcase,  and this will come loose when you run the motor with it's new oil.

So you may get your oil filter bunging up in a very short time.

It would have been better to remove the sump and clean it out.

I would suggest,  if you don't want to do that (and who would) that you run the engine for a short while (until the oil is nice and warm) and then drain off the oil.  Replace it and the new filter.

Just my take on the possible problem.

Dave.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 28, 2014, 07:48:00 AM
Hi David, I'm sure (and did hope) that the kero did loosen up gunge on the bottom of the pan. And removed a lot of it along with the remaining old thickened black oil.

After that, the plan was as you mentioned, to run the motor a short time, get it up to temperature and then drain the oil and replace the filter a second time. It's a two stage process. That's why there's two filters shown in my supplies photo.

The ford has a full flow system. All oil is filtered.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: DavidA on May 28, 2014, 09:44:33 AM
Glad to see you anticipated what would happen.

Full flow filters are much better than by-pass filters. Just don't forget to change them.

Dave. :thumbup:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 28, 2014, 10:31:42 AM
It's drizzling out today so I haven't done any work yet on the tractor. Maybe I can get the old muffler and headpipe off of the old manifold working indoors. Bolts are badly rusted and I might have to cut them off.

One nice thing about the Ford's oil pan that I forgot to mention yesterday, is that big 3" plug sits at the bottom of a round sump (depression) in the oil pan, and the sump is the diameter of the plug. So when you remove the plug you basically remove the bottom of the entire sump. And also since the plug is hollow, most buildup of hard sediment is going to be trapped there. And even that has it's own tiny sump, in  the form of the hollow square plug boss that I had so much trouble turning yesterday. When you remove that big drain plug, you can see in it what's in the pan.

Well there was no hard sediment buildup, even in the square hole of the plug. Just old black thickened oil. And that's what I mainly wanted to clear out of the system with the kerosene flush.

In the fifties many tractor engines were routinely cleaned by replacing the oil in the pan with kerosene, and actually starting the engine, running briefly to distribute the kerosene,  shutting down, and then draining the dirty kerosene out.


Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 28, 2014, 01:01:31 PM
No sign of the missing valve cap in there when you drained the old oil?

Interestingly, what you (stateside) call the oil pan, we here in the UK call the sump, so it's seems odd (but understandable) to hear you talk of a sump in the oil pan !

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 28, 2014, 01:39:19 PM
Andrew, I haven't poured out the oil from the collection pan yet, so don't know if anything is in there. It's continuing to rain, and a bit chilly today.

I knew that you all called a sump, what we would call an oil pan, but couldn't figure out how to describe what was there any other way. Here a sump is a low point for collection in any fluid container. I didn't have a name for it otherwise! Recess, maybe? What would you call it your side of the pond? Is there a proper term?

(I figured you guys would get what I meant if I put "depression" in parenthesis.)

The sump's sump also had a sump in the lump on the plug.

Say that three times fast, if you can!  :)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 28, 2014, 02:28:15 PM
I chased the bug around the tree .... say that fast  :ddb:

In general terms a sump over here is also a low point to collect liquids. So in one house that I owned years ago I had a sump in the cellar with a submersible pump to keep the water table low.

Hope your weather clears up soon, I want to see that engine run  :ddb:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 29, 2014, 06:41:53 PM
Andrew, yer gonna git yer wish tonight!  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Soon as I get a video all sorted out and uploaded on this slow connection.

Today I got the muffler and headpipe off the old manifold an put it on the new one, connected up the thermostat housing with a new gasket, reconnected the radiator and a new temperature gauge and a new oil gauge, and then spent a good long while adjusting the valves.

You do this by turning the crankshaft with a wrench and watching the valves -- the manual spells out which two should be open, to adjust a different pair, then turn crank and repeat for another pair, etc. four times. Spec said between .016 and .018 so I used both those feeler gauges for go-no go setting.

Ran into a problem with one adjuster that had some kind of thread locker or something in it, don't know why, these all have lock nuts. Anyway got that cleaned out and cleared up.

Put new grommets on the valve cover studs, new cork gasket in the valve cover. Cranked that down. Then I went and found a new small engine gas tank for testing the motor -- I didn't want to mount the tractor tank quite yet -- it makes access a lot harder and the valves are supposed to be readjusted again hot (and idling!) Looks like I'll need 3 hands for that -- one on a screw driver, one on the lock nut wrench and one holding the feeler gauge while getting burnt on the exhaust manifold  :scratch:

I mounted the small temporary tank with fiberglass strapping tape (the new bailing twine) added a new fuel filter to the line and added about a cup of gas, feeling a bit conservative. Poured water in the radiator to fill, and then tried to think of what else I should do, besides press the starter button.

(http://www.vtsteam.com/Ford/Alltogether.jpg)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 29, 2014, 07:05:19 PM
Andrew, yer gonna git yer wish tonight!  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Soon as I get a video all sorted out and uploaded on this slow connection.

Today I got the muffler and headpipe off the old manifold an put it on the new one, connected up the thermostat housing with a new gasket, reconnected the radiator and a new temperature gauge and a new oil gauge, and then spent a good long while adjusting the valves.

You do this by turning the crankshaft with a wrench and watching the valves -- the manual spells out which two should be open, to adjust a different pair, then turn crank and repeat for another pair, etc. four times. Spec said between .016 and .018 so I used both those feeler gauges for go-no go setting.

Ran into a problem with one adjuster that had some kind of thread locker or something in it, don't know why, these all have lock nuts. Anyway got that cleaned out and cleared up.

Put new grommets on the valve cover studs, new cork gasket in the valve cover. Cranked that down. Then I went and found a new small engine gas tank for testing the motor -- I didn't want to mount the tractor tank quite yet -- it makes access a lot harder and the valves are supposed to be readjusted again hot (and idling!) Looks like I'll need 3 hands for that -- one on a screw driver, one on the lock nut wrench and one holding the feeler gauge while getting burnt on the exhaust manifold  :scratch:

I mounted the small temporary tank with fiberglass strapping tape (the new bailing twine) added a new fuel filter to the line and added about a cup of gas, feeling a bit conservative. Poured water in the radiator to fill, and then tried to think of what else I should do, besides press the starter button.



Waiting with bated breath!!!
Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 29, 2014, 10:24:30 PM
 I didn't want to mount the tractor tank quite yet -- it makes access a lot harder and the valves are supposed to be readjusted again hot (and idling!) Looks like I'll need 3 hands for that -- one on a screw driver, one on the lock nut wrench and one holding the feeler gauge while getting burnt on the exhaust manifold  :scratch:

Steve,I have built and serviced a good number of 4 cylinder pushrod motors and never heard of any procedure that requires pushrod tappets to be adjusted with the engine running,the normal method is the static one you have described where a pair are set whilst another corresponding pair are rocking at peak lift.(this paired sequence differs for engines with firing orders of 1342 and 1243)

 I really can't see how any form of accurate adjustment could possibly be achieved with the engine running.....OZ.  :scratch:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 30, 2014, 12:59:20 AM
Here is the video from today -- I hope I have the link right...



[embed=500,375]<!-- This version of the embed code is no longer supported. Learn more: https://vimeo.com/s/tnm --> <object width="500" height="375"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=96871217&amp;force_embed=1&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=1&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autoplay=0&amp;loop=0" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=96871217&amp;force_embed=1&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=1&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autoplay=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="500" height="375"></embed></object> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/96871217">1954 Ford 850 First Start</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user9419463">vtdiy.</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>[/embed]
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2014, 02:09:30 AM
No link showing for me  :scratch:

edit later: It now shows for me on my laptop - earlier I was looking on my iPhone (in bed drinking coffee !)
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 30, 2014, 02:20:24 AM
The video plays perfectly for me, Andy!  :scratch:


Steve.
Just back from holiday. Catching up, on what I've missed...... I'm sitting here with a big silly grin for you!  :)

Blummin well done!  :clap: :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2014, 03:11:52 AM
Superb Steve - I'm so glad it fixed the missfire - you'd have been well pissed off if it only ran on two cylinders  :wave:

Now take the head off again - skim another 50 thou off and go racing  :lol:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: RussellT on May 30, 2014, 04:57:01 AM
Nice.

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

Well done. :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks:

Russell
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: DavidA on May 30, 2014, 06:27:52 AM
..I really can't see how any form of accurate adjustment could possibly be achieved with the engine running..


This used to be the method for adjusting the tappets on at least one type of Bedford engine way back in the 40-50s.

I never had to do it, but apparently the idea was to slacken off the lock nut then,  with the feeler guage inserted,  turn down the adjusting screw until the 'tapping' stopped. then tighten up the lock nut.
I assume that when you had done them all you stopped the engine and checked the tightness of the nuts.

Possibly that is why some one invented hydraulic adjusters.

Sounds very awkward.  but I am assured it works.

Dave.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: DavidA on May 30, 2014, 06:35:58 AM
No matter how many times I've heard it,  that 'first time' sound of an engine I have re-built never fails to give me a warm glow and a very silly grin.

Nice job.

Dave :thumbup:
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
I have a tappet adjuster similar to this one to set up my Austin Healey 3000: Makes life much easier



Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 30, 2014, 07:27:25 AM
Great Steve!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Manxmodder on May 30, 2014, 08:02:59 AM
..I really can't see how any form of accurate adjustment could possibly be achieved with the engine running..


This used to be the method for adjusting the tappets on at least one type of Bedford engine way back in the 40-50s.

I never had to do it, but apparently the idea was to slacken off the lock nut then,  with the feeler guage inserted,  turn down the adjusting screw until the 'tapping' stopped. then tighten up the lock nut.
I assume that when you had done them all you stopped the engine and checked the tightness of the nuts.

Possibly that is why some one invented hydraulic adjusters.

Sounds very awkward.  but I am assured it works.

Dave.

That method sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.
For a start, how the hell would anyone be able to isolate the noise of the tappet being adjusted when there are 7 others rattling away in close proximity and all the other mechanical background noise associated with a running engine.

The static method is infallible as  the tappet being adjusted is set with the camshaft in a position where the cam follower is corresponding to the base circle of the cam. This being the lowest point on the cam and clear of the quietening ramps on the flanks of the cam lobe,this represents the dwell centre point of zero lift.

I maintain that the most reliable an accurate method of setting clearances is to adjust the tappets with the engine heated up to running temp and then set the clearances with the motor static and turn the crank with a socket on the front pulley.....OZ.
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: 75Plus on May 30, 2014, 10:57:34 AM
Prior to hydraulic lifters a majority if not all over head valve engines on this side of the pond had the valve lash adjusted while the engine was running. Several companies made special tools to allow one handed adjustment while the other hand controlled the feeler gauge. The link shows one of the simplest least expensive tools.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-MAC-OVERHEAD-VALVE-ADJUSTER-CHEVYS-1922-1954-/150924835042?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2323d238e2

Joe
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: hermetic on May 30, 2014, 01:27:30 PM
It is easier with the SPQR tappet adjuster(Awemawson), but I have done it without on many occasions with the engine running, often it was because they would rattle quite loudly unless you set them running. Also used it to quiten a single noisy tappet. Running with the rocker cover off can be messy, but if you place a wooden hammer shaft on each tappet in turn, and press down you can soon find the noisy tappet, then slip in a feeler and adjust. It works, but knocks hell out of the feelers. I think this was the recommended method on engines fitted with rotator caps, and if you look at the pics further back in the post, you can sort of see why. The rotator cup compresses the spring, and the collets, but leaves the valve free to turn. If you tried to set these static, you would read the back pressure from the spring as the tappet being set correctly, but in reality there will still be clearance between the cap and the stem top. If it is done running, you hear the tappet "go quiet" but the feeler is still slipped easily in and out of the moving tappet. Engines of this type always ran noisy unless you set "hot and running"
Phil
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: hermetic on May 30, 2014, 01:43:30 PM

Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on May 30, 2014, 09:57:46 PM
Matt, Oz, Andrew, David D, DavidA, Russel, Phil, Joe, thank you all for the help along the way and well wishes!!!!  :beer: :beer:
 :nrocks:

And also the full explanation of setting valves while running. I was wondering how that worked, and wasn't looking forward to trying to figure it out on my own. Though that wouldn't have stopped me.

But especially the mention of using the tappet sound (how could you use feel?) made more sense to me. I don't fancy messing up my feeler gauge, so maybe I'll hunt up a substitute piece of sheet metal for the required thickness. And I'd already thought about making up a tool to do the one handed adjustment and locknut shuffle. I'll post a pic if I do.

Meanwhile there were a bunch of small problems to work on -- the usual bits and pieces on a vehicle which is old and has sat and has been just recently been reassembled.

I have an oil leak at the left forward valve cover corner. Gasket needs to be reset.

The new oil gauge tube popped free of the fitting in the block when I first started the engine. I noticed a honey colored stream of something jetting 8 feet out the far side of the engine just as I shut down. I put a pipe plug in. So I never got an oil pressure reading. Although there was some practical evidence that I had oil pressure!

I have a coolant leak at the new temperature gauge sender (and I even wrapped it with teflon tape). Needs tightening.

The throttle linkage and choke linkage needs sorting out. I suspect some missing parts -- probably a bracket or 2.

Solenoid is partially melted (cheap modern junk -- came with the tractor -- plastic case, not bakelite, I have another proper replacement). Also I don't think it is hooked up right probably. Might be an incorrect part. Must check for an "S" terminal which feeds coil while cranking. The engine had a tendency to start the moment the starter button was released, which is a symptom of no S feed to the coil.

Coil itself is getting too hot -- probably about to fail. Another ordered.

Wiring is bad, will re-do. Ground strap on batt needs replacing -- the clamp looks like it went through a mower, plus all the adjustment is taken up, still loose.

In today's news -- I moved the tractor forward, gingerly since there is no front bucket or lift arms attached right now -- all the weight of the backhoe is well, on the back.  I could see the front wheels looking light as I moved forward, steering ineffective. We don't like popping wheelies on tractors..nnnnnno....it just makes for a bad day all around. But she did move under her own steam, hey and reverse works too!  :ddb:

Clutch free play and pedal height need adjusting -- a fair amount on the low side, which exacerbates the above wheelie possibilities. :dremel:

Man this baby guzzles gas by comparison with my JD Model M. That little tank gets sucked dry in minutes just idling. But well, it's 3 times the HP, and double the cylinders.

So then it was time to head down to Tractor Supply and grab a couple pals of hydraulic fluid. On sale for $24/5gal I heard from the boys down at the country store. Got a big funnel, too, and a carb bowl screen and gasket. Poured in what I thought was enough, but not too much in the backhoe tank (couldn't find a filler gauge).

This is a PTO mounted pump driven rig, so I dropped the PTO lever and let off the clutch. Fooled around with the valve spools, and finally figured out which was the legs, the dipper, bucket etc. Then I dug a sort of week bucket full of dirt, somewhat haltingly, and dumped it out again, more or less in the same spot, since I actually don't wan to be digging holes here. It worked too !!!!!  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

However, many of the hoses are in uhhh, "tired" condition, so it looks like I'll be replacing the worst of them. Lots of oddball stuff going on with partial pipe and pipe fittings, but all hoses and fittings looking to be 1/2" NPT pipe thread, so should be fairly simple to get replacements, and clean things up some. There are all 100R2AT type hoses. Not sure if I should switch to the more flexible R16 hose -- about the same price.

There are two leaks at present -- one under an auxiliary spool where it attaches to the tank. The other is the hose at the top of the dipper, a 4 footer with one swivel end fitting.

Also there's no filter on the hydraulic system at all, so I'm looking into adding one on the return, if that's possible. I think I've found something online here:

http://store.airflo.com/p167849.html

But I will have to check on  it's suitability further.

Thunderstorm threatened, so I buttoned things up again. Fun playing machinery operator for 20 minutes!!





Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: mattinker on May 31, 2014, 06:56:03 AM
This has been a fun thread, I'm really glad it's working out! I can't help wondering if there wasn't a diesel engine built for this tractor. I had (in Wales) a 1956 Fordson Major when it was only about 20 years old, diesel with an in line injector pump. Very economic to run. I know that there was a six cylinder Ford engine that fitted the Fordson, can't help wondering.

Looking forward to the rest of the story! Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on July 20, 2017, 11:34:58 PM
Thread photos restored after the Photobucket bail-out. One more done!
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: Pete. on July 21, 2017, 02:32:41 AM
It is easier with the SPQR tappet adjuster(Awemawson), but I have done it without on many occasions with the engine running, often it was because they would rattle quite loudly unless you set them running. Also used it to quiten a single noisy tappet. Running with the rocker cover off can be messy, but if you place a wooden hammer shaft on each tappet in turn, and press down you can soon find the noisy tappet, then slip in a feeler and adjust. It works, but knocks hell out of the feelers. I think this was the recommended method on engines fitted with rotator caps, and if you look at the pics further back in the post, you can sort of see why. The rotator cup compresses the spring, and the collets, but leaves the valve free to turn. If you tried to set these static, you would read the back pressure from the spring as the tappet being set correctly, but in reality there will still be clearance between the cap and the stem top. If it is done running, you hear the tappet "go quiet" but the feeler is still slipped easily in and out of the moving tappet. Engines of this type always ran noisy unless you set "hot and running"
Phil

When I was a kid I remember my grandad complaining about having to set the tappets on an engine and about how it would beat up his feeler gauges. I asked him why he did it with the engine running (when he had just shown me the usual way) and he replied "because that's how you fookin' do it" :)

He was a monkeyhanger so no point asking further you had to just accept it and leave it at that :D
Title: Re: 1954 Ford 850 Tractor w/blown Head Gasket (at the very least)
Post by: vtsteam on July 21, 2017, 09:03:50 AM
Pete, I have to admit, in this length of time, I haven't gone back and set the valves properly, while running. This is a good reminder. I also left the Ford gas tank off of the tractor and just used the pathetically small utility engine tank, still jury rigged to the engine... on the occasions when I want to dig. This means topping up the tank about every ten minutes. Dumb!  :palm:

If I set the valves running, in other words, properly, I'd feel I could re-mount the original tank, and add back the sheet metal that came (unattached) when I bought the tractor. That original tank makes it impossible to set the valves. In fact it's impossible to remove the valve cover. But I do need to complete this project. So I will when I can, probably in the next few weeks.

Re-reading what you've done in the past is a really good reminder.  :beer: