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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: AdeV on August 09, 2010, 04:34:14 PM

Title: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on August 09, 2010, 04:34:14 PM
I'm still waiting for those pesky taps to dissolve from my aluminium sump, and I can't muster up enough enthusiasm to finish off the spindle sleeve taper thing just now, so - what better than another new project :)

I was going to try to keep you all guessing as to what it was, but there's a total giveaway in one of the photos, so I'll just come clean now. It's yet another quick-change tool post... My 4-way TP drives me mad, it's a complete git to get the tool height correct, and somehow 4 tools just ain't enough.

Anyway, on with the fun. Ages ago, I picked up a roughly cube shaped lump of Mystery Steel (plain carbon steel as far as I can tell). It machines well enough once the thin layer of mill scale & rust was removed:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/001-RemovingTheRust.jpg)

For those who are interested: 0.100" deep cut, approx 10-12mm width of cut, using an 18mm rough cutter. Coolant is regular cutting oil. Anyway, it took a couple of hours, but I ended up with this:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/002-ShinyCube.jpg)

It's not quite cubic: It's about 5"x5"x4" - well, it was... it's about 4.8" x 4.8" x 3.8" now  :D

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/003-Shiny4point7inchCube.jpg)

Next up, a bit of on-material C-o-C work, just to give me the rough positions of things. The centre point of the eccentric cam is punched & the circle scored, just for reference. Next up, pop it back on the mill & use the edge finder to get a datum point (the corner):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/004-UsingTheEdgeFinder.jpg)

Then, use a large-ish centre drill to make the V-shaped hole I'll need for the next step:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/005-CentreDrilling.jpg)

Annoyingly, the centre drill then did what John Stevenson always says they do, and broke it's small flutes off. Grrrr. So, turn the piece upside down, repeat the edge-finder step, turn the centre drill over & pray that this side doesn't break too.... It didn't luckily, so I could move it over to the lathe:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/006-SetupInLathe.jpg)

In the pic above, I've squished the piece into the two parallels (which are up against the back of the chuck - and are obviously removed before switching the lathe on!) using the dead centre in the tailstock. This allows me to really quickly do up the 4 jaws to grip the piece nice & tight, and I can be sure that - within the sort of accuracy I need here, which is pretty slack TBH - the hole is centered. The parallels are there because, when I come to bore the hole out to dimension, I need to be able to get the boring bar all the way to the back (top) of the piece. Since the chuck centre is less than the 3" diameter I'm aiming for, I couldn't have the metal right to the back of the chuck....

Anyway, without further ado, I started drilling. Eventually, I got to the biggest drill I have. Here they all are, in the order I used them:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/007-DrillEm.jpg)

There's a couple of scary-big steps there, but all went well. The drill sizes are: 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 1/2", 21/32", 3/4", 53/64", 7/8", 31/32" and 1". I kept the speed down to 190rpm to avoid throwing that block of metal anywhere... It would do a lot of damage I reckon...

Tomorrow I must re-mount the boring bar (YAWN) and open the hole out the rest of the way.

[edited title for search engines]
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: raynerd on August 09, 2010, 06:39:58 PM
:clap: :dremel: :clap: :dremel: :clap: :dremel: :clap: :dremel: :clap: :dremel:

Nice one AdeV! This is going to be a 100% definate project for me and fairly soon as well. I did start one a while ago but mucked it up on the shaper when cutting the dovetails. This time I`ll do it on the mill. That being said, I`ve no steel big enough to make it and although I like a good project  :proj: I do have others that I`d rather do, so I`m just working out by the the time I`ve purchased the steel block, it may have been worth just buying the QC tool post and making some holders! - but then where is the pride and fun in that :dremel:

I`ll be waiting and watching for your daily progress  :whip: :whip: :whip:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 10, 2010, 04:49:45 AM
Thanks Chris :)

Quote
I`ll be waiting and watching for your daily progress

Hmm, it won't be daily for long.... I swan off on 2 weeks holiday after the weekend, so I may not have it finished by then... will try to, though.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: madjackghengis on August 10, 2010, 07:44:04 AM
I'm still waiting for those pesky taps to dissolve from my aluminium sump, and I can't muster up enough enthusiasm to finish off the spindle sleeve taper thing just now, so - what better than another new project :)

I was going to try to keep you all guessing as to what it was, but there's a total giveaway in one of the photos, so I'll just come clean now. It's yet another quick-change tool post... My 4-way TP drives me mad, it's a complete git to get the tool height correct, and somehow 4 tools just ain't enough.

Anyway, on with the fun. Ages ago, I picked up a roughly cube shaped lump of Mystery Steel (plain carbon steel as far as I can tell). It machines well enough once the thin layer of mill scale & rust was removed:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/001-RemovingTheRust.jpg)

For those who are interested: 0.100" deep cut, approx 10-12mm width of cut, using an 18mm rough cutter. Coolant is regular cutting oil. Anyway, it took a couple of hours, but I ended up with this:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/002-ShinyCube.jpg)

It's not quite cubic: It's about 5"x5"x4" - well, it was... it's about 4.8" x 4.8" x 3.8" now  :D

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/003-Shiny4point7inchCube.jpg)

Next up, a bit of on-material C-o-C work, just to give me the rough positions of things. The centre point of the eccentric cam is punched & the circle scored, just for reference. Next up, pop it back on the mill & use the edge finder to get a datum point (the corner):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/004-UsingTheEdgeFinder.jpg)

Then, use a large-ish centre drill to make the V-shaped hole I'll need for the next step:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/005-CentreDrilling.jpg)

Annoyingly, the centre drill then did what John Stevenson always says they do, and broke it's small flutes off. Grrrr. So, turn the piece upside down, repeat the edge-finder step, turn the centre drill over & pray that this side doesn't break too.... It didn't luckily, so I could move it over to the lathe:

 :bugeye:  AdeV, I always use the smallest center drill I think will work, while rotating the work or drill as fast as possible, with a very light touch, hoping to get a single edge cut, as that establishes an accurate center, and only then move up in center drill size.  I have also found that with magnifying "optivisors" I can re-sharpen the small edges of the center drill pretty accurately, and keep them cutting cleanly.  This is something I've only recently began to do, having too many experiences with broken off center drills.  Keeping the center drill sharp, and letting it essentially single point the center has saved lots of center drills in the past couple years and improved my accuracy of hole location. :poke: mad jack

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/006-SetupInLathe.jpg)

In the pic above, I've squished the piece into the two parallels (which are up against the back of the chuck - and are obviously removed before switching the lathe on!) using the dead centre in the tailstock. This allows me to really quickly do up the 4 jaws to grip the piece nice & tight, and I can be sure that - within the sort of accuracy I need here, which is pretty slack TBH - the hole is centered. The parallels are there because, when I come to bore the hole out to dimension, I need to be able to get the boring bar all the way to the back (top) of the piece. Since the chuck centre is less than the 3" diameter I'm aiming for, I couldn't have the metal right to the back of the chuck....

Anyway, without further ado, I started drilling. Eventually, I got to the biggest drill I have. Here they all are, in the order I used them:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/007-DrillEm.jpg)

There's a couple of scary-big steps there, but all went well. The drill sizes are: 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 1/2", 21/32", 3/4", 53/64", 7/8", 31/32" and 1". I kept the speed down to 190rpm to avoid throwing that block of metal anywhere... It would do a lot of damage I reckon...

Tomorrow I must re-mount the boring bar (YAWN) and open the hole out the rest of the way.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 10, 2010, 10:25:02 AM

 :bugeye:  AdeV, I always use the smallest center drill I think will work, while rotating the work or drill as fast as possible, with a very light touch, hoping to get a single edge cut, as that establishes an accurate center, and only then move up in center drill size.  I have also found that with magnifying "optivisors" I can re-sharpen the small edges of the center drill pretty accurately, and keep them cutting cleanly.  This is something I've only recently began to do, having too many experiences with broken off center drills.  Keeping the center drill sharp, and letting it essentially single point the center has saved lots of center drills in the past couple years and improved my accuracy of hole location. :poke: mad jack


Hi Jack,

That's definitely what I did wrong with the first hole, I only had 550rpm on the spindle. I upped that to 1200 or therabouts for the 2nd hole. Most of the time, I reckon I can just use a stub drill for hole location (in the future), but this is one time when I actually needed a real centre drill...

Thanks for the info on sharpening; this is something I've not yet dared try my hand at... I still have loads to learn before I try sharpening drills & end mills...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 10, 2010, 04:02:28 PM
Just a brief update today, I didn't get anywhere near as far as I wanted to :( Why is it the clock moves fastest between 6pm and 9pm?  :scratch:

Anyway... Due to the unique way my boring bar is shaped (it came with the lathe), I have to send it into holes at quite a steep angle. So I can't bore the hole to full depth (about 3") in one continuous go, I have to take maybe 1/2", then I can get the tool a bit further in, and so on... Because of this, I need to know where to stop when deep in a hole (this would be true if I was taking the full depth in one go also); so an indicator is stuck to the swarf tray on its mag base:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/008-CarriageStop.jpg)

When the indicator reaches zero, disengage feed, or suffer the consequences...

Here's the hole coming along. It's slow, tedious work. I like the mill better...

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/009-Boring.jpg)

More tomorrow...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Brass_Machine on August 11, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
Nice start to your project Ade! I am sure this will be as fantastic as your soon to be completed oil pan.  :headbang:

Eric
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 12, 2010, 04:23:35 PM
Thanks Eric, I don't think it'll be quite as unique somehow, except maybe its size... It's a big boy...

Nothing done yesterday, work interrupted play. I got another 3 hours at it tonight:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/010-StillBoring.jpg)

The big hole is about 1" deep by 2.8" diameter. The inner hole could be anything, I haven't measured it yet. I will have to adjust the tooling setup before I can complete this hole to full depth:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/011-NotMuchRoom.jpg)

As you can see, with the boring bar at full depth in the hole (around 2.2"), there's sod all room left before the tool that's on top of the boring bar hits the work piece, causing all kinds of aggro. It's this sort of stupidity that I'm looking forward to curing with the QCTP...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 13, 2010, 06:29:19 PM
More boring...

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/012-BoringAway.jpg)


Eventually(!):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/013-Bored.jpg)

That's 2.830" in diameter, and 2.725" deep. It's probably taken 9hrs to hollow it out.... I was planning to go to 3" diameter, but given how long it's taken to get this far, I may stay at 2.83" & simply make the eccentric a little smaller...


Of course, part of the problem may be my bizzare-looking boring bar. I've not seen anything ground like it anywhere else; it came with the lathe, and other than occasionally sharpening it, I've not changed its shape. Any thoughts gratefully welcomed:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/014-BoringBar-1.jpg)

Getting right into the corner of a hole isn't possible with this tool; if you cut straight in, then the bottom right edge cuts; if you angle it over sufficient to avoid that, then the top left part of the tool bangs into the back of the hole before the cutting edge....

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/015-BoringBar-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: andyf on August 13, 2010, 07:13:47 PM
Hi Ade,

It probably started life more this sort of shape, so its shank could be set parallel to the lathe's axis, but repeated sharpening has removed the part outlined in red. I think it's time to raid the piggy bank and treat yourself to a new one.

(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv257/andyf1108/015-BoringBar-2.jpg)

Andy 
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 13, 2010, 08:13:24 PM

It probably started life more this sort of shape, so its shank could be set parallel to the lathe's axis, but repeated sharpening has removed the part outlined in red. I think it's time to raid the piggy bank and treat yourself to a new one.

(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv257/andyf1108/015-BoringBar-2.jpg)


Thanks Andy - that certainly makes more sense than the tool being the shape it is from new... I'll waste no more oilstone on it  :D

Damn, I just put in an order with Chronos.... but OTOH it looks like RDG have some nice boring bars... so... 16mm or 20mm...?
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Ned Ludd on August 13, 2010, 10:14:37 PM
Hi AdeV,
Nine hours boring, that must have been truly boring.  :lol:

I do think you have to revise your methods and quickly.

I was going make a recommendation for a tip, but on looking at current on-line catalogues for Iscar and Sumitomo, the ones I use are not to be found, curse this craze for modernizing everything. Anyway, the ones I would have recommended are truly magnificent. They allow a near chrome like finish, even with very small depth of cut, on all the metals that I use. I shall have to be careful with my remaining stock, as replacing them might prove difficult. :( :(
Ned
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 14, 2010, 03:17:32 AM
Hi AdeV,
Nine hours boring, that must have been truly boring.  :lol:

I do think you have to revise your methods and quickly.


The main reason it's taken so long, other than the general lack of time/day I have at the machines, is the smallness & slowness of the cut I have to take with the boring bar, plus the frequent requirement to stop & clear out chips. For example, I absolutely dare not push it past a 0.020" cut, at quite a slow feed rate (my lathe quotes 160cuts/inch, whatever that works out to in thou per revolution). I started at 190rpm, but was down to 112rpm by the time I was out at the quoted diameter, simply due to the heat being generated by the cutter bit... I can only take so much cutting oil smoke.

At least 45 mins, maybe 1hr, was spent facing the back face of the cut, as best I could, with the bar over at an angle, I can't get right to the corner of a cut as previously mentioned, so the bottom of the hole tended to form a bowl shape. Then you have to factor in some time to re-arrange the tooling in the toolpost (+ I got some extra shims to bring the tool to absolutely smack on centre height, it was a smidge below when I started). So add 1/2 to 1 hour for that... and before you know it, you've got 9 hours invested in the piece. Hence my internal debate about going to the full 3" or not: It's not essential, so I don't think I will. Instead, I'll turn the extra off the S/S bar I have. I have some carbide tipped turning tools, so I should be able to attack the cut quicker than boring out the hole....

Quote

I was going make a recommendation for a tip, but on looking at current on-line catalogues for Iscar and Sumitomo, the ones I use are not to be found, curse this craze for modernizing everything. Anyway, the ones I would have recommended are truly magnificent. They allow a near chrome like finish, even with very small depth of cut, on all the metals that I use. I shall have to be careful with my remaining stock, as replacing them might prove difficult. :( :(


How about a photo? And maybe the tip type?  :)
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: madjackghengis on August 14, 2010, 09:13:19 AM
Hi AdeV, the easy way is to put a torch to your boring bar, remove the small piece of carbide, and replace it with a much larger one, which you can grind to match the picture you show of Andy's suggestion.  The long way is to get a boring bar that takes inserts, as it will cut better, and will have good chip control, something difficult to accomplish with the plain brazed bar.  Good chip control can double or triple your boring speed if the edge is right.  The one I use most has a TPG insert, and gives a good finish, and empties the cavity pretty well when there's room. :thumbup: mad jack
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 14, 2010, 10:08:48 AM
Hi AdeV, the easy way is to put a torch to your boring bar, remove the small piece of carbide, and replace it with a much larger one, which you can grind to match the picture you show of Andy's suggestion.  The long way is to get a boring bar that takes inserts, as it will cut better, and will have good chip control, something difficult to accomplish with the plain brazed bar.  Good chip control can double or triple your boring speed if the edge is right.  The one I use most has a TPG insert, and gives a good finish, and empties the cavity pretty well when there's room. :thumbup: mad jack


Hi Jack - that boring bar is plain HSS! No carbide in sight...

I'm going to order a couple of indexable boring bars - a big one for big holes & a small one for, well, I'm sure you get the idea :) RDG do a fine looking selection all the way up to 20mm...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 14, 2010, 11:08:57 AM
After hmming and hahing for a while, I decided what the heck; clean up the bore & consider it done. So, I set to with the wet & dry, but got bored after a while, and my fingers hurt.... so, I had a brainwave. (http://www.graces-cafe.net/forum/images/smilies/brainwave.gif) (It'll end in tears -ed)

I figure, a tumble polisher tumbles various steel (or whatever) parts together, ideally with a lightly abrasive medium. Well, I didn't have any abrasive medium handy, but I did have a handful of mixed nuts:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/016-MixedNuts.jpg)

I figured, the nuts being harder than the bore, the bore should be the one to take the wear. With enough knowledge to be dangerous, I tape up the holes:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/017-Wrap.jpg)

And sent it for a spin:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/018-Spin.jpg)


After a couple of hours, and with more than a little trepidation, I opened her up for a look:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/019-2hours.jpg)

Not bad! Not perfect, some abrasive stuff would probably help. So, I chucked some extra nuts I'd found in, sealed 'er up & set 'er off again. A couple more hours later:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/020-4hours.jpg)

Not much difference. I think I've reached the limit of what I can do with my nuts. I think I'll move onto the cam next, see how far I get with that...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 14, 2010, 03:20:59 PM
One last photo for today:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/021-OldVsNew.jpg)

As you can see, the new toolpost will stick forwards of the old one a little way, even before I add any tool holders... therefore, I might push the dove tails back 1/2", to give me a bit more breathing space by either dovetail.

Hopefully, I'll have some time in the shed tomorrow, before I swan off for 2 weeks. Don't think I'm going to get it finished before I go away somehow...


Edit: Does anyone have a large (BXA?) toolpost? If so, can you please measure the dovetails (widest & narrowest parts)? I've googled & googled and I can't find a single reference to the _actual_ dimensions of these toolposts... It occurs to me, if I make my dovetails the same size as a commercial item, at least I could buy toolholders instead of having to make them, should I become lazy and rich in my old age...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Divided he ad on August 15, 2010, 07:33:49 PM
Can't believe you used your nuts for that!!   :jaw:   :lol: 


I'd have thought that the centrifugal force would have kept them all to one side?  How fast was it spinning?

Doesn't a tumble polisher move slowly with as stated "abrasive stuff"  doing the work over many hours?


Just wondering.... Never tried it myself.



Looking good though Ade  :thumbup:



I'm no help what so ever on the technical dimensions question though sorry  ::)





Ralph.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: jim on August 16, 2010, 01:32:51 AM
just a thought on this polishing the bore, why not chuck some bits of grinding wheel in with the nuts??
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Bluechip on August 16, 2010, 05:25:28 AM
Can't believe you used your nuts for that!!   :jaw:   :lol: 


I'd have thought that the centrifugal force would have kept them all to one side?  How fast was it spinning?

Doesn't a tumble polisher move slowly with as stated "abrasive stuff"  doing the work over many hours?


Just wondering.... Never tried it myself.



Looking good though Ade  :thumbup:



I'm no help what so ever on the technical dimensions question though sorry  ::)





Ralph.

Bit  :offtopic: but, as I made a couple of tumblers as a lad ..

They do run quite slowly, about  some 60 - 120 RPM is typical for a 4-6" drum.

If you want a cheap abrasive, get some 'Sharp Sand' from the DIY shed/builders merchant. NOT soft yellow/red building sand, that's useless.
Sharp sand is nowhere near as good as Carborundum grit, but it's nowhere near the price either.  ::)
Use it wet with a dash of liquid soap.

'Many hours' Ralph ??

Days or weeks for pebble polishing  :(

Nice shiny nuts though. Mine are rusty. I'm jealous ...  :lol:

Dave BC




Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on August 16, 2010, 02:53:05 PM
OK, a quick update now I'm in "sunny" Spain...

Thanks for the thoughts on the tumble polishing.... I was running at 112rpm for the most part, basically, I just picked a speed where I could hear my nuts rattling around & left it at that. I will try some proper abrasive next time, I didn't have any to hand hence not including any...

I've also turned a lump of 3.5" 303 stainless steel down to roughly the same diameter & depth as the hole. At the moment, I think it's a touch too tight to just slip smoothly in, so I may need to lose another couple of thou. Just out of interest, what sort of dimensional difference does one need to ensure a nice sliding fit that isn't so tight it jams up?
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Brass_Machine on August 16, 2010, 04:17:48 PM
O...I just picked a speed where I could hear my nuts rattling around & left it at that...

Now I have to clean my keyboard. Soda everywhere!   :lol:

Enjoy Spain.

Eric
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Rob.Wilson on August 20, 2010, 06:01:40 PM
O...I just picked a speed where I could hear my nuts rattling around & left it at that...

Now I have to clean my keyboard. Soda everywhere!   :lol:

Enjoy Spain.

Eric
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :doh:


Rob
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 03, 2010, 04:55:41 PM
Onwards!

Unseen by you ('cos I didn't take any photos of it, oops), I had turned a length of 3.5" s/s bar down to the correct diameter (nearly - I was a couple of thou over) for the toolpost. On returning from my 'oliday, I ordered a fab new boring bar to replace the knackered one I've been using, and got on with finalising the diameter & drilling the centre hole as far as I could.

Yesterday, the spiffing new boring bar turned up; but it needed quite a shim to fit in the existing toolholder.... it was a whopping 0.410" low (measuring from tip to dead centre)! So, I made a 0.405" "shim" from some scrap 1/2" steel - which, it turns out, is exactly the right height  :thumbup:

Here's the new toy:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/022-NewBoringBar.jpg)

I took a couple of trial cuts through the drilled hole, got some chatter on the first pass, but second & subsequent passes were as smooth as you like. Spot the happy bunny :)

So, after cleaning up the drilled bore a bit, I decided to clean up the shoulder:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/023-CamSpindleNearlyDone.jpg)

You can see the chatter marks (LHS shoulder, nearest the chuck); that's because, not having any tools which will cut to a shoulder just now, I used the boring bar. To make it work, I had to have the cutter behind the work piece, and run the lathe in reverse. Other than the slight chatter, it worked like a champ.

The strange looking "shoulders" on the bottom (RHS) are to cope with the fact my old boring bar couldn't cut a clean bore to a shoulder, so there's a bit of excess material left in the main toolpost body. Those cuts clear that, so it goes and sits right at the bottom.

Next jobs: Open the centre bore out a little further, then off-set the piece & cut the cam (I may need to grind a tool up for that, as it will be between two shoulders...), then finally turn it round & relieve the top, cut a nice taper on the "handle" section, drill & tap for the handle...

I should probably do some proper measuring soon... Nah, what the heck. Keep on cuttin'!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 04, 2010, 03:11:19 PM
So, today I wanted to finish off the cam lock bit. First job was to tidy up the main bore & open it out to 1.5".

This done, the next job was to off-set the work to cut the actual cam part. This achieved, I also scrounged up some weird turning tool from the bottom of a drawer somewhere. I think it's a left-handed tool to cut to a shoulder, but ignorance is bliss so I gave it a quick whizz on the carbide grinder wheel, just to sharpen it up, lobbed it in the toolpost (fortunately, no faffing required, it went straight in at the right height), and got busy with the cutting:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/024-CuttingOffsetCam.jpg)

Yes, I know the tool looks like it's mounted on its side. I took me ages to work out which way up it went...

One thing about this tool, it cuts a very nice surface on 303 Stainless. The entire piece was now turned around, re-centered, a few touches removed from the main diameter just to get it to run true; then I cut a 20 degree taper. This is where the handle will go, and matches the taper on my current toolpost. After a bit of faffing (including re-setting the piece, as it moved a smidge when the taper was being cut, somehow), everything was ship-shape. A quick file to take the burrs off, and a quick whizz with some oiled-up wet & dry paper made no impact on the machining marks. So I pretended it is a "brush finish" & left it at that...

Next job, drill & tap the hole for the handle. First up, I needed to somehow mount it in the milling machine, at an angle of 20 degrees, straight & true... After some headscratching, some messing about with the sine bar & gauge blocks, and discovering that the only way I could fit it into a V-block & clamp  would be if I drilled the wrong side of the piece for the handle.... I suddenly got some inspiration. Having just bought a digital angle gauge, why not simply clamp it between V-blocks in the vice, and manually tip it up until the correct angle appeared. A bit like this:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/025-SetupForHandle.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/025a-SetupForHandle-2.jpg)

Simples.... used an end mill to make a small flat, centre drill (at max RPMs) to make a wee guide for the twist drills, drilled 4mm, 6mm, 7.5mm, 8mm & 8.5mm ready for an M10 tap.

Now.... as anyone who has read any of my stuff before will know, tapping is not something I enjoy. I'm still dissolving two taps I broke off... and that was in Aluminium; now I'm tapping in stainless steel! I've also found tapping to be an energy intensive operation, and bloody slow.


So... while I was on holiday, I noticed an auto-reversing TapMatic on eBay. Actually, there were several (of various makes), all going for around the £100 mark; one was on Buy-it-now-or-best-offer, so a cheeky offer of £75 was, to my surprise, accepted promptly  :headbang: I also bought some spiral point taps, which I believe are better for power use than regular hand taps.

Anyhoo, pop the tapping head on the mill - it uses up all my headroom, I could only just fit everything on!  :bugeye:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/026-DrilledTapped.jpg)

So, here's how to tap in Stainless: Line everything up. Set speed to 115rpm. Hold quill handle with right hand, use left hand to release quill lock (oh for a working quill spring...). Hold torque lever with left hand. With other left hand, switch mill on, then apply a load of cutting oil. Pull quill handle down until tap engages & starts tapping. Keep gentle downward force on until tap comes out of the other end of the hole; then pull quill up. Tap reverses & drives itself out of the hole. From first pulling the handle down to the tap fully withdrawing - 10 seconds (approx). MILLIONS of times easier than farting around with the tap, tap handles, trying to make it all run true. Yada yada. I am SO going to love this tapping head, even if it is too deep for the mill. I can always use it on the pillar drill instead.

Anyway, that's more or less where I left it. The cam piece is now finished, I have the main holding sleeve & bolt to make, the pistons to make, the body to finish off, and the base to make. Blimmin' eck!

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/027-CamFinished.jpg)
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: jim on September 04, 2010, 04:05:39 PM
another excellent write up!

i really am impressed with your work. ignorance is bliss, but also gets the job done!!


as we say at work, if it gets the job done its ok!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 04, 2010, 06:06:04 PM
another excellent write up!

i really am impressed with your work. ignorance is bliss, but also gets the job done!!


as we say at work, if it gets the job done its ok!

Thanks Jim, it's nice to know that my muddling along is appreciated  :wave:

I have to say, my ongoing improvements are almost entirely down to the help & encouragement I receive on this site, so, in short:  :nrocks: :mmr:

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Trion on September 05, 2010, 03:56:53 AM
Your QCTP is beginning to look very good! :clap:

Regarding your issue when setting the shaft up in the v-blocks. Would it not be possible to set a DI / DTI to the tapered surface, run the X-axis back and forth and adjust the part until you got no dial movement? Just asking because I don't have such a fancy digital angle gauge.. yet ::)
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: madjackghengis on September 05, 2010, 09:05:17 AM
Hi Ade, I keep a starret level on my mill table, it has two bubbles at right angles, and is pretty accurate matching up bubbles pretty close with my machine level, and I often use a level to get a piece in the vise close enough for regular kind of work, like putting a handle on a tool post.  As to dimensions of a large tool block, I suggest you find one you feel is the right size, lay a couple of dowel pins in the female dovetail, use an appropriate sized adjustable parallel to tighten up the dowel pins (they need to be about two thirds the depth of the dovetail slot for accuracy), and measure off the parallel, and use the same pins and parallel when you make your slots.  I'd suggest making a "master slot" blank, and use it for testing all your future tool holders, to keep from creeping larger or smaller, incrementally.  By the way, you can braze a piece of high speed steel onto a bar of steel, and then grind it to a good shape and dimension for boring, and get a good boring tool, capable of good sized cuts, with little problems with chatter as long as your relief and clearance angles are good, and it sharpens up, right on the machine with a touch up stone, if you stone it every time you use it.  I'm busy ignoring having "only" half a dozen tool holders, and changing out tools left and right.  Maybe when I get my 12 inch shaper up and running, I'll make a gang of tool holders. :poke: :nrocks:  Keep up the good work, Ade, mad jack
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 05, 2010, 12:02:41 PM
Your QCTP is beginning to look very good! :clap:

Regarding your issue when setting the shaft up in the v-blocks. Would it not be possible to set a DI / DTI to the tapered surface, run the X-axis back and forth and adjust the part until you got no dial movement? Just asking because I don't have such a fancy digital angle gauge.. yet ::)

Trion, thanks! If my lowly QCTP looks even slightly as good as your Sajo mill (once you've finished it), then I truly will be a happy bunny. As for using a DTI - yes, that would work just fine. It would probably take quite a while to get it spot on, although TBH I think you can get away with a whole chunk of inaccuracy because it's threaded, and slop in the threads will take up any error.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 05, 2010, 12:16:14 PM
Hi Ade, I keep a starret level on my mill table, it has two bubbles at right angles, and is pretty accurate matching up bubbles pretty close with my machine level, and I often use a level to get a piece in the vise close enough for regular kind of work, like putting a handle on a tool post.  

Another cool idea, I like it  :clap: It wouldn't work on my mill, unfortunately, as mine's at least 1/2 a bubble off level... Looks like I'll be shimming it some time soon...

Quote
As to dimensions of a large tool block, I suggest you find one you feel is the right size, lay a couple of dowel pins in the female dovetail, use an appropriate sized adjustable parallel to tighten up the dowel pins (they need to be about two thirds the depth of the dovetail slot for accuracy), and measure off the parallel, and use the same pins and parallel when you make your slots.  I'd suggest making a "master slot" blank, and use it for testing all your future tool holders, to keep from creeping larger or smaller, incrementally.

It's the finding one that's the issue... Anyway, I've given up trying to match an existing one, and am going with my own dovetail size (2" root x 0.5" depth), In fact, I'm about to go out & cut the first one...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 05, 2010, 04:59:37 PM
Tonight's write up will be a little brief, as it's late o'clock, I'm starving hungry, and swarf isn't edible unfortunately.  :doh:

Today, I worked some more on the main body. First job was to cut one of the long sides down to the top of the dovetail:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/028-RemoveStock.jpg)

18mm roughing cutter, pushing it until it produced nasty burny blue chips. Then, since the mill wasn't complaining, I carried on. I only got burnt once worth a mention...

Once the holder was milled to exactly 4.010".... erm, OK, approx 4", I turned it 90o in the vice, and used the edge finder to locate a corner. Next job, rough cut away the material either side of the dovetail:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/029-RoughOutDovetails.jpg)

Same cutter, same colour chips. Lots of smoke. Mmmmm, smoke. The shallow groove was a reference cut to make sure the dovetail is the right width, and that I'm cutting in the right place. I was.... so the non-dovetail portion was taken down another 0.500".

Then, load my newfangled 1.25" dovetail cutter (a snip at £20 from Chronos - hardly worth keeping sharp at that price), and get cutting. This is a miserable operation on my mill; I've got some wear in the dog clutch in the top, so it clatters like a bugger at slow RPMs, unless I use my fingers to keep a bit of resistance on the quill. I think what's happening is, as a flute clears a chip, the cutter sort of springs round, until the next flute engaged which slows it down, then the dog clutch catches up with a BANG; repeat 200 times per minute and it gets quite boring quite quickly... Yet another "must fix it" job...

ANYWAY, I did manage to take one photo; this is the second to last cut & is much easier on the cutter than the previous cuts, hence having a spare hand to run the camera:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/030-CutDovetails.jpg)

Once the dovetails were cut to size, I used a deburring tool to mill a small 45o chamfer on the top edge, then a brief whizz round with the file just to deburr & soften the edges slightly.

Last job tonight, I don't bl**dy believe it, YET MORE SLOTTING!

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/031-SlottingAgain.jpg)

Using the 1/4" cutter (as I happen to have a 1/4" radiusing tool which will radius the pistons just right). The cutter moaned if I tried to take anything more than 0.100" at any more than a glacial feed rate. This got old very quickly, so I slapped in a 6mm roughing cutter & chopped the piece out in one fell swoop. Yeah, it smoked at me, but it got the job done. Then, back in with the 1/4" mill to tidy up the edges. A bit more faffing with the file, and here's the result:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/032-FirstPositionDone.jpg)

Starting to actually look like something now....

I have a lot of machine marks to clean up. Not looking forward to that job...

Tomorrow, I will try to finish the other dovetail, then I just have a bit of work to do on the underside of the body and I can move on to some other parts...

Question: I've made the cam out of 303 stainless steel: What material would you, gentle reader, recommend for the pistons? I'm wondering if it's worth avoiding S/S to avoid galling, and I'm thinking maybe brass or phospher bronze might be an option?
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: madjackghengis on September 06, 2010, 07:52:36 AM
Hi Ade, were I me, which I am, I'd use a piece of aluminum bronze if I had one laying around, stainless does gall easily, particularly 303, and the aluminum bronze is about as hard a bronze as you get, and would probably give the best bearing surface for the eccentric.  It's probably going to be turned a few dozen times at least, I'd say.  Worth taking account for some friction.  I expect once you've got a few tool holders, you'll be as well off as if you bought them, and from then on, all the ones you make, will be as if you'd bought the original post, so you didn't lose much of anything in not finding dimensions.  I looked through my catalogs, and books, and didn't find any reference with dimensions of the dovetail in any of them.  As long as it's big enough, it'll get you through the day.  I think that spline issue would about drive me crazy, my tractor was doing that a few years ago, ended up having to make a new clutch for the PTO so it'd stay engaged and cut.  One of these days I'm going to buy a few roughing cutters, I keep reading about people using them, and they sound like a good piece of gear.  Looking good so far  :beer: :bugeye: mad jack
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 06, 2010, 12:12:41 PM
Hi Ade, were I me, which I am, I'd use a piece of aluminum bronze if I had one laying around, stainless does gall easily, particularly 303, and the aluminum bronze is about as hard a bronze as you get, and would probably give the best bearing surface for the eccentric.  It's probably going to be turned a few dozen times at least, I'd say.  Worth taking account for some friction. 

Well, I didn't have any lying about (I only have a lump of brass, but that's earmarked for a different project), luckily my metal merchant had some kicking around. It's not cheap though - £40+vat for a 4" length of 2.25" bar! Still, that gives me loads to make the pistons with, & some left over for future projects.

As for the pistons, the more I look at it, the less I like the rectangular shape, I think I'd prefer a squarer piston, to give better side-to-side support. I also need to figure out how to make the pistons stay inside the unit; I'm thinking a small flange on the back, and an appropriately recessed area inside the bore (I have to cut a recess, otherwise I'd never get the cam sleeve in...


Quote
I expect once you've got a few tool holders, you'll be as well off as if you bought them, and from then on, all the ones you make, will be as if you'd bought the original post, so you didn't lose much of anything in not finding dimensions.  I looked through my catalogs, and books, and didn't find any reference with dimensions of the dovetail in any of them.  As long as it's big enough, it'll get you through the day. 

I think you're right; I still need to make the holders; not sure if I just bite the bullet & buy some steel to make a stack of them, or whether to make 1 from ali first... choices choices... I'd better finish the main toolpost first, lots to do on that yet.


Quote
I think that spline issue would about drive me crazy, my tractor was doing that a few years ago, ended up having to make a new clutch for the PTO so it'd stay engaged and cut.  One of these days I'm going to buy a few roughing cutters, I keep reading about people using them, and they sound like a good piece of gear.  Looking good so far  :beer: :bugeye: mad jack

You're right, the clattering just sounds so wrong, so bad, that I really ought to do something about it. I can usually avoid it by setting my cuts up carefully, and by equally careful speed/feed rates. If I keep the cut aggressive, it tends not to clatter...

I can highly recommend the roughing cutters, they're great for rapid removal. The surface finish from the side of the cutter is dreadful, but then it IS a roughing cutter. The end cut can be pretty smooth, certainly little worse than my best endmills.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 07, 2010, 05:24:16 PM
I've not abandoned this project... but it took 2 days to cut the 2nd dovetail: Day 1 to bulk-remove material to dimension, Day 2 to rough the dovetails, cut them properly, then cut the hole for the piston. There's no action shots, because they look the same as before. When roughing the material off, I had to stop every 0.200" to let the block cool from "FMTH" to merely toasty...

So, here's the result:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/032-SecondPositionDone.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/033-SecondPositionDone-2.jpg)

As you can see, I've gone for the bigger square piston rather than the tall thin one. I obviously still need to open out the original hole, I ran out of time tonight. I've also had a little go at draw filing on the first dovetail, hence the slightly odd appearance of the marks. A bit more time & it should look loverly.


Finally tonight, a little light relief.....

How does one transfer oil from the big can to the little can, without spilling any, when you've not got a handy assistant to hold the funnel?

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/034-Oil-1.jpg)

Answer tomorrow...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: DMIOM on September 07, 2010, 07:36:15 PM
.....How does one transfer oil from the big can to the little can, without spilling any, when you've not got a handy assistant to hold the funnel? ......

One possibility - have a look in the corner of the workshop and find a large billet of aluminium that happens to have a tapered interior, and several oil-drain holes in it; dangle the said billet overhanging the edge of the mill table, fill the sump with oil and catch the run-off in the small can?  

Dave  :coffee:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: andyf on September 07, 2010, 08:08:44 PM
.....How does one transfer oil from the big can to the little can, without spilling any, when you've not got a handy assistant to hold the funnel? ......

 :scratch: :scratch:
I bet you've found a foot or two of plastic tube to use as a siphon.

Andy
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Colh on September 07, 2010, 11:06:01 PM
Hi Ade

I had exactly the same problem - 20 litre drum near full with cutting oil needed to be put into a small oil can.

Went to the local auto parts shop and bought a cheap diff/gear box oil pump - like a big syringe with a plasic hose.

Have been following your thread as a QCTP is the next project on my list. 

Where did you get the plans or are you making it up as you go?

Have to work out the best dimensions to fit my lathe - Hercus 260 (Australian version of a Southbend/Boxford) with 11/16in or 18mm from top slide to centre height.

Will post photos of my workshop soon.

regards  Col
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 08, 2010, 05:59:32 AM
Hi Col, welcome aboard the cube  :borg: Assimilation is guaranteed... but you get to make your own hardware  :dremel:

My QCTP is loosely based on this one: http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/qctp/qctp-e.htm, but I'm pretty much winging it with the dimensions - I aimed to have a similar block size to my existing 4-position toolpost. I always wanted 2 dovetails, so I can mount boring bars & turning tools without turning the toolpost. There are no drawings, as I've not yet done any...

My centre height from the top of the cross slide is 1.750" (about 44.5mm), the toolpost is about 3.5" high currently, although I have an extra 1/2" base to add to that yet; I've noticed that when I add the base, the centre point will be below the bottom of the toolpost piston; so I may try to take a bit more off the base block yet to compensate for that.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Rob.Wilson on September 08, 2010, 05:03:03 PM
Cracking Job Adev  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Been watching with interest  as i need to make a QCTP for my Cub lathe  :dremel:


Keep it up  :thumbup:


Rob 
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 08, 2010, 07:52:39 PM
Cheers Rob - much appreciated... I need encouragement after today... it was one of those "2 steps forward, 1 step back" days in the workshop  :(

First job was to enlarge the first piston hole to be the same size as the other one (1.400" square). This went OK-ish... oddly, the same setup as I used yesterday (6mm roughing cutter, followed by 1/4" end mill) didn't work; the roughing cutter over-cut. I've no idea why, the only possible explanation I can think of is; the 1/4" collet I was using yesterday has stripped its threads, so I was using a different collet. Maybe the old one had some runout or something. Anyway, the result is, the 1/4" end mill didn't do anything useful to the finish, so I'll have to be a bit careful with that piston.


Anyway, on with the show... I've been pondering for some time how I would retain the pistons within the body of the QCTP. The only solution I've seen is a fellow madmodder's (sorry, I forget who) idea of drilling up through the base & screwing in a pin which sticks into the body of the piston, thus retaining it. Whilst I can see how that works, It doesn't seem very elegant to me. So, I figured I wanted something a bit neater. Then.... inspiration! I have a "Quillmaster" for my Bridgeport, which allows me to mill inside of things. So, a bit of fiddling later (including shortening a 3/16" end mill so the whole kaboodle will fit inside the main bore):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/036-Quillmaster.jpg)

And then, having lined everything up & dialled it in using the "bump" method (bump the cutter into the work, call that near as damnit 0.000" + 1/2 cutter width), and got ready to take the first cut.... a thought occurred. Anyone who knows me will probably slap their forehead & groan at this point, because it's bound to get more complicated... Today is no exception  :D

I decided that, this would make a very ugly flange. It would be nearly 1/2" deep at the edges, yet only a few thou at the centre. This offends my sense of symmetry - the flange should be the same thickness all the way around. And.... it can be! All I need to do is mount the block on my dividing head, and I can cut the flange on a curve! The only problem is, the dividing head has a fairly small 3-jaw chuck on it, and I really don't want to disturb it. The chuck is too small to grip the outside edges of the block (and besides, they'd be off-centre), and is too big to grab the inside edges of the small hole in the bottom; and I can't use the big hole 'cos I need that to get the Quillmaster in....


....so I spent the rest of the evening making a mandrel to hold the body in the dividing head.... After much cursing and one (luckily minor) toolcrash:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/037-Mandrel-1.jpg)

I don't have a decent 60o threading tool, so rather than try to cut a threaded stub, instead I drilled it with a handy 0.435" drill & tapped it 1/2" UNC - to match my milling machine mounting kit. The threaded stub is the shortest stud in my kit, screwed in as far as I could get it. The flange bolt also comes with the kit. When it's all put together:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/038-Mandrel-2.jpg)

It then sits nicely in the dividing head:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/039-DividingHead.jpg)

The only issue - visible in the 2nd photo - is that line about 1/2 way down the main diameter. After the tool crash (more of a hard tool bump really), the mandrel was knocked slightly off-centre. After some colourful cursing, I re-dialed it in as best I could, but I couldn't quite get it exactly bob on. So, after finishing the 1" bore (which goes into the QCTP body), I took just enough thousandths to ensure the mandrel would run true in the dividing head. Unfortunately, I couldn't reach the last inch or so, due to the chuck, and guess what - yep, the dividing head jaws are deep enough to grip on the slightly off-centre (larger) diameter. Agh! I'll have to pop it back in the lathe & take another cut to narrow the back diameter just enough that the trued diameter is being gripped. THEN I can use the Quillmaster!


Finally, the answer to the oil question... Dave is remarkably close, really...

Firstly, one cannot just pour oil into the funnel. If you go too slow, the oil all dribbles down the big barrel, and you're there forever.
If you go quick enough not to spill oil down the barrel, then the funnel fills up & tips over, dumping at least a pint of oil on the floor. Don't ask
me how I know this. Similarly, finding a corner is no good, as the funnel will ALWAYS tip out of the corner, even if that seems to be physically
impossible. Lastly, even if you find a way to support the top of the funnel, as long as it's resting on the oil can, it will form a perfect seal
which prevents the funnel from draining in anything less than 3 weeks. Again, don't ask me how I know this.

So, I had a chat with Heath Robinson, and he suggested this:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/035-Oil-2.jpg)

Funnel is held in an old brake disc, supported between the Comedy Bandsaw and the Bin of Paper Towel Death. The oil can is sitting on a can of old paint,
another project in the making, and finally my ER32 collet set, to bring it up to the perfect height. I can now fill the oil can in just a few seconds, with
as good as no spillage whatsoever, result!!!

Naturally, the very next day, the brake disc fell off its perch, scattering everything far & wide as it fell.... Ho hum, such is life...

Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Baldrocker on September 08, 2010, 09:37:51 PM
Hi Adev
I only have a Falcon left front disc brake, will that fit? (Don't be rude)
BR
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 09, 2010, 04:00:07 PM
 :bang:

Damn Quillmaster wouldn't go far enough into the bore before it hit the thread in the arbor; so I would only be able to cut the flange 1/2 way down the sides of the piston - no good! So, I spent a good hour pondering, turning down a nut to 1/2 it's original depth, cutting a shorter piece of threaded stud, and modifying a large washer (needed a bigger hole), the end result of which is...... I got within 3/16ths (the cutter width, approx) of being able to cut the flange on the bottom edge, but no further! Aaargh!

Faced with the prospect of trying to lose another 3/16" off the nut/washer combo (impractical, I fear, there won't be enough nut left to grip properly), I decided enough was enough. So, I did a bunch of draw filing, which is surprisingly hard work - unless I'm doing it wrong, and have now called it a night.

I may yet give up on the Quillmaster & flange route; Instead, I'm thinking of making the piston holes (and the pistons themselves, obviously) tapered, so they'll go in the holes from the inside, but can't pass all the way through. The other option is to find another way to clamp the block onto the dividing head...

Hmmm....  :scratch:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Rob.Wilson on September 09, 2010, 06:54:07 PM
Ade

I now have tool envy  ::)  cool bit of kit you av there (quill master) :dremel:

Rob  
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 10, 2010, 05:49:04 PM
Rob - I got it at quite a reasonable price (I thought) too - only £85 (they seem to go for £150+ on ePay); however, so far all its done is take up space in a cupboard... it's gone back away now, 'cos I'm going to part-taper the pistons instead, MUCH easier than tring to make the quillmaster work. Ah well, I'm sure it'll earn its keep one day, even if it's on eBay...

Only a bit of machine time tonight; I put the block back in the lathe to cut the underside recess (the toolpost will ride on a base, this will allow it to rotate without falling off & causing the baby jesus to cry). The base is a separate section of 1/2" plate which also needs some work...

So, anyway, here it is: Misuse of a boring bar #1 (but hey, it's currently the best facing/turning/cutting tool I have...):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/040-CuttingRelief.jpg)

Gotta love power feed  :dremel:

Then, as the lathe seem to be cutting particularly well tonight, I took the skimmiest of skim cuts off the bottom, partly to get it dead nuts flat relative to the top (I'm not convinced it matters, but what the heck), but mainly to make an impression on those machine marks that the mill left:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/041-SkimBottom.jpg)

I took about 0.006" off in total, in 3 passes (yawn).

Then, over to the filing bench, I spent the next 2 hours draw filing various sides. Even that didn't get rid of ALL of the machine marks, but I'm hoping the metal blacking will cover a lot of sins...

More tomorrow  :wave:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Brass_Machine on September 10, 2010, 08:24:01 PM
Ade,

It's looking good! That is going to be one QCTP you can be very proud of.

Eric
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 11, 2010, 05:34:10 PM
I hope so Eric, it's certainly taking long enough!  :lol:

Speaking of which.... a nice long day in the workshop, albeit with a couple of trips out to break the day up a bit...

First, I thought I'd show you the results of my draw filing efforts... Here's what we started with, at about midday:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/042-DrawFiling-Before.jpg)

Plenty of marks, pits, ridges & so forth. After about 1/2 hour - with the occasional pause to wipe my fevered brow, it's surprisingly sweaty work this draw filing business - with the coarse file, here's where we're up to:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/043-DrawFiling-30mins.jpg)

Almost there, just a few bits at the bottom middle, and some faint lines where the file dug in - then bounced, damnit, all the way down the left hand side of the block. Another ~30 mins of effort, first with the fine file, then with some 120-grit wet&dry (with cutting oil lube):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/044-Drawfiling-1hour.jpg)

As you can see, there's still one mar left, but life is too short, I'd still be filing that out now...

Repeat the above for the top edge, then a quick skim of the dovetails, and it's time to move on...

First, I parted off a chunk of my super-expensive Aluminium Bronze - the piece in the picture represents just under £10's worth of metal (2.25" diameter). This was a bit of a bum-puckering task, the first time I've parted anything off under power. Not realising just how tough this metal is, I just plunged in with my sticky-outiest HSS parting tool. It smoked like mad, but cut cleanly, turning about £1 of metal into swarf...

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/045-Piston.jpg)

Next, onto the mill to convert it into a square. Man this stuff is tough, mild steel is a doddle by comparison. Max depth of cut: 0.025" per pass; lucky I'm not building the body out of this stuff, I'd be there forever! Anyway, once it was cut square and to dimensions, and the top/bottom edges skimmed to flat, it's time to radius the corners:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/046-RadiusingPiston.jpg)

You can see where I got over-confident and ballsed up the first one, I went 0.025" too deep with the cutter. It's 1/4" radius, not 1/2"!  :doh:

Soon:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/047-PistonComplete.jpg)

As usual, I've not got anywhere near as far as I'd hoped (I was hoping to have both pistons finished & to have made a start on the base, but, no such luck). So anyway, here's a couple of glamour shots:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/048-Progress1.jpg)

The piston currently sticks out about 0.113" when it should really be flush; so that's a job for tomorrow. Maximum movement for 1 rotation of the cam is about 0.150", plenty I reckon. What I'd call "normal" movement (i.e. handle fully back to handle where I'd expect it to be) is about 0.050", that should be OK, so long as I can make my toolholders fairly accurately.

And what post would be complete without an arse shot?


(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/049-Progress2.jpg)

 :lol:

Looks good, though, doesn't it? Even if I do say so myself....

Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Rob.Wilson on September 11, 2010, 05:47:11 PM
I would say so to Ade ,,,,,,,,,,, very nice  :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

We all day days were we dont get as much done as we thought we would  :doh: 


Rob  :thumbup:

Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: raynerd on September 11, 2010, 06:34:54 PM
Looking bloody brill!! Well impressed!!  :bow: :ddb:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Trion on September 12, 2010, 02:41:12 AM
Still looking very impressing, I'm looking forward to seeing it mounted on the lathe! :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 12, 2010, 01:43:05 PM
Well, another couple of steps complete, and it's just that little bit nearer to being done   :thumbup:

First job today was to make the second piston. No action photos, I'm afraid, you've seen it all before I'm sure. At least I got all my radii right today  :lol:

Now, before I go any further, I owe an apology to a fellow MadModder - I don't know who unfortunately, because I can't find the post in question  websterz - because a few posts back, I pooh-poohed the idea of using a retaining pin, drilled up from the base of the QCTP which I saw in his thread. Well, I hereby eat humble pie & apologise - because all my grand ideas of tapers and/or flanges went out of the window, and I've ended up with, yes, a pin going into a slot in the bottom of the piston:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/050-PistonRetainer.jpg)

The hole is drilled 3.5mm, and partially tapped M4 for a grub screw. The slot in the bottom of each piston is 3mm (I lunched one of my 3mm cutters too, oops). If you're really sharp-eyed, you might spot the cock-up in this picture... The "grub screw" is just a cheap-ass M4 bolt with the head cut off, and a screwdriver slot cut in with a hacksaw.

I didn't have any 3.Xmm material, the smallest stock dia I've got is about 5/8". Rather than waste 95% of that, I ended up using a section of the handle of a deep fat fryer basket (the basket will appear later). My chuck won't handle anything smaller than about 5/8", so I put the ER32 collet chuck in the 4J & dialled it in to within a thou or two. Popped the stainless (?) bar in, with about an inch & a half stuck out, and proceeded to make some cuts. This is all new to me, I've never lathed anything this small before.... so I bent the first one trying too big a cut (& then trying to rescue it, didn't work); I was more circumspect after that:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/051-PistonRetainerRod.jpg)

And so.... it was time for the moment of truth.... with all machining operations on the main body now complete, it was time to try to black it. Earlier this week, I handed 85 of our queen's heads over to Caswell Europe, who in turn sent me a bunch of chemicals:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/052-Blacking-Prep.jpg)

They didn't send any coffee though, I had to make that myself.  :lol:

And....




...that's it for now! I've run out of time & have to go out.... the rest of this update will be along later this evening. Sorry about that!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: raynerd on September 12, 2010, 02:45:02 PM
Wow - 85 squid is a good bit of brass...look forward to seeing the results. It looks amazing so far!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 12, 2010, 05:35:20 PM
And back... sorry about leaving y'all in the lurch there, but, duty dinner called  ::)

Chris - I thought long & hard about the stuff I bought; price wise, it is the most chemicals I could get for less than £100. It should last me for months, and that's even if I gratuitously blacken stuff I make. The solution is good for 4m2 apparently; I don't know how much I used today, but if it's 0.1m2 I'd be amazed.

So, having poured/diluted the chemicals - as applicable - into the 4 plastic buckets, and having pre-washed the block in fairy liquid as recommended (in the absence of a hot degreasing solution), it was time for the 4-tank-shuffle... First, degreaser:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/052-Blacking-Step1.jpg)

Then conditioner, then the cold-ox stuff itself:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/053-Blacking-Step3.jpg)

As you can see, it started to blacken immediately. Telling when it was done proved difficult; in fact, I over did it a bit & it started making "soot"; the trouble was, the soot rubbed off & it looked grey underneath... Visions of failure swam before my eyes.... leaving it in a bit longer just made it worse, so in the end I gave up & followed the rest of the instructions, rinsing the soot off under the tap. Then, into the sealer oil:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/054-Blacking-Done.jpg)

Handy thing, that basket... it came from one of the deep fat fryers I bought to make machinable wax (remember that stuff?)... I left it 1 hour that way up, then turned it over & left it another hour and it STILL wasn't dry (the instructions said 45 mins to 1hr - that must be for small stuff), so I cleaned it up with a paper towel...

So, how does it look? Well, I put it all together, and...:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/055-PistonIn.jpg)

Eee, just like a bought one  :D

In normal use, the piston should stick out this far (RH piston):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/056-PistonOut.jpg)

If I make a shabby tool holder, it will come out this far:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/057-PistonWayOut.jpg)

Let's face it, that's just an excuse for more pictures. So..... got the base to make, and the central pin that holds it all down & locks it in position. And then some toolholders, and it'll be ready.... Onto the home stretch now, I feel :)
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Powder Keg on September 12, 2010, 05:40:18 PM
Looks great!!! I've been thinking about their nickle plating setups.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Bernd on September 12, 2010, 09:03:29 PM
That looks to nice to be covered in swarf or even to put on the lathe and get scratched.  :D

Bernd
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 13, 2010, 05:44:16 PM
Work had me working late tonight, so shop time was curtailed  :( I made a start on the base, however....

Since my vice doesn't seem to be well dialled in, I got rid & worked straight on the table today. First up, line the base up as best as possible (it's already been hacksawed to size):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/058-Base-DialIn.jpg)

Then trim the two accessible edges; jiggle the clamps about a bit (i.e. add an extra clamp, move the other two around, one at a time):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/059-Base-CutSquare.jpg)

It's now square to within a thousandth. Take that, cheap chinese vice!

I then had to disassemble the top of the lathe to get the old toolpost off, to find out what spacing the mounting points are... 3" for the record. So, drilled & tapped two holes in the base to mount it. I also centre-drilled the middle of the base, as it will need a threaded hole cutting in it (size TBA), not to mention relieving (on both sides! - the underside because there's a ring sticking up where the old toolbase sat, and on the topside I need to leave a circular upstanding piece for the new toolpost to ride on...

Anyway, just for laughs, I decided to take a "preview" shot, of it sitting on the lathe:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/060-Preview.jpg)

Hmm, it looks a bit high.... Ah, that's because it is:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/061-ABitHigh.jpg)

Centre height is about 0.450" below the bottom of the piston  :( I plan to relieve the base a bit, so that will claw me back about 0.200" of height, and I could (in theory) skim about 0.400" off the bottom of the block; but for now I think I'll just leave it & see how it pans out. If I have to do something about the height, I may also make an entire new cross-slide, as mine is badly worn...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 14, 2010, 05:17:01 PM
A touch more progress today...

First - after putting the lathe back together... - mount the base plate in the chuck, centering on the hole I made yesterday, pin the piece onto some parallels for straightness, then drill to 8.5mm, before power-tapping M10 at 60rpm:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/062-PowerTapping.jpg)

These HSS spiral point taps really do work very well...

Now, cut a relief for the circular thingy that will be left on the cross-slide (the current toolpost uses it as a guide, but the hole in my t/p is too big for it). This was a proper arse-puckering procedure... last time I did this I wrecked a parting off tool, destroyed the piece I was cutting, and quite possibly damaged the chuck too... so, lots of very slow feeding, take it down to 0.100"; then another 1/2 width cut just to make sure. The following photo is posed - no way was I going to take a photo while it was all spinning:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/063-UndersideRelief.jpg)

Then, turn the piece over & mount on some bigger parallels. I originally took the parallels out after I set it all up, but the first interrupted cuts pushed the piece very slightly off-line, so I had to leave the parallels in & squish it all tight with the live centre - I bet that did its bearings the power of good... not:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/064-TopsideRelief.jpg)

The idea here is to cut away about 0.100" again, leaving the central section for the toolpost to ride on. It took a while, I had to keep the speed & feed rates right down, it was interrupted cuts almost all of the way. Anyway, after 0.100" was done, I did a touch of filing on the lathe, and some more off the lathe. It's not finished yet, so no more photos.


There's another problem too: Look at the last photo in the previous post, and you'll notice a touch of discolouration on the black top. Today, it was worse:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/065-Problem.jpg)

Aargh! RUST! Damnit!

That block has sat, naked, in the workshop for weeks on end, with nary a smidgeon of rust on it. 2 days after I blacken it, it looks like THAT! Curses!

I can only assume I didn't let it sit in the water-displacing oil for long enough, and/or a bit too much water soaked into the steel (yeah, you might think it was waterproof, but it's not: Just play an oxy-acetylene flame over some steel & watch the water dive out of it). So, I baked it at 90 degrees in the toaster oven for a couple of hours, then soaked it in WD40. If it still looks OK in a couple of days I'll call it done; if not, it's out with the sandpaper, and I'll have to re-black it. Grumble.

Next task: The central pin which clamps the toolpost down to the base & also acts as a retainer for the offset-cam. So, I cut some stock off my 2" bar of EN1A-Pb (leaded steel), and curse it if it wasn't too short. Grumble grumble mutter grumble. So I cut a longer piece off, I'll make that bit tomorrow now.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: raynerd on September 14, 2010, 06:52:50 PM
Looking mighty cool AdeV - nice one!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Brass_Machine on September 15, 2010, 12:41:06 PM

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/055-PistonIn.jpg)

Eee, just like a bought one  :D


Ade, That came out fantastic. Now... could you do a write up on the finishing (blackening) process??

Eric
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 15, 2010, 01:45:10 PM
Hi Eric - I did cover the process briefly in the post you quoted that picture from; but sure, I could put together a proper "full explanation" type post together if you like.

I may have to re-black the toolpost anyway... after the rust incident, I baked it for a while then slapped lots of WD40 on it; that seems to have done the trick (for now), but some of my other experiments involved fine wet&dry, so I've actually scraped some of the black off one side.... We shall see.

Anyway, it's time to hit the workshop for a couple of hours, be nice to get this one finished off...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Divided he ad on September 15, 2010, 04:43:04 PM
Looking mighty good Ade  :thumbup:


Aluminium bronze!!! Tough stuff indeed  :jaw: I've got a few lengths of 1'2" hex that Bogs got for me from the scrappy (not as expensive as yours) only made a torch from it so far, looks great when polished up but machining it wasn't fun!


I like your experiments into the blackening. Never had the resources or the room for such.... One day  ::)  Hope it all works out after handing over the hard earned for it?




One of these days I'll get over there again to visit and see all this stuff first hand eh?



Hope today went well?







Ralph.
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: DeereGuy on September 15, 2010, 07:13:34 PM
Nice work!
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 15, 2010, 08:07:11 PM
Thanks Ralph & Bob - much appreciated. Ralph, I could use you popping over, I haven't the patience to polish it properly!  :lol:

Anyway, tonight, I did a bit more. I needed to work on the central pin, that locks the tool holder to the base, whilst still allowing the cam portion to rotate. It also acts as a retainer to prevent the cam from being lifted out, should you be perverse enough to try such a thing... Anyway, I chucked up a 6" piece of 2" leaded steel, and got busy with the rough cuts:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/066-CentrePin-OuterDia.jpg)

The retaining ring diameter was 1.75"; having reached that, I cut the main section (1.5"), then the bottom section (1"):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/067-CentrePinTurned.jpg)

The retaining ring is, as you can see, cut right up to the chuck. Annoyingly, and stupidly, I hadn't left myself a long enough section on the end to reach all the way through the toolpost & into the base. So a bit of lateral(ish) thinking required... I drilled & tapped the base for some M10 stud:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/068-PowerTappingM10.jpg)

Then, using two bolts tightened against each other, I wound the stud in as far as it would go. Before I finish this off completely, I'll probably take the stud out again & loctite it back in, just to be sure it stays there forever. But tonight was all about making sure everything would fit together OK.

So - having inserted the stud, I moved the piece away from the chuck by 1/2", and parted it off, finishing off with a hacksaw. And so, finally..... all the major parts are finished, hooray!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/069-MajorParts.jpg)

And when it's all put together:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/070-Assembled.jpg)

 :beer:

Obviously, we're not quite there yet - I still have to do something with the top of the post. I had thought, drill & tap it for M10 or M12, and loctite in a cap screw, which could then be used to tighten or loosen it. Or I could make another handle thing, rather like the original plans suggested. I've yet to decide... However, what I will try and do, is finish the top off with some brass, just to give it some contrast with the stainless steel. As to how it performs; well, once I'd done a bit of file work, I can now clamp it right down hard on the base, and still turn the cam lock with only a little binding (I reckon some valve lapping paste & elbow grease will cure that).

Oh go on then, if you insist, one more photo.... An "exploded diagram":

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/071-Exploded.jpg)


Some final thoughts (for tonight): It would seem that my "rescue" of the rusting situation has worked. Basically, I stuck it in a toaster oven at 90o for a while, then whipped it out & drenched it in WD40. And that's pretty much it; the rust has disappeared, and the black surface remains - except where I'd rubbed it off with sandpaper  :doh:

I will probably blacken it again at some point, but I'll see how it holds up in use before I do.

The next job, then, is to make a holder, so I can try it out...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: AdeV on September 16, 2010, 04:23:47 PM
Onwards!

More or less from the moment I parted off the centre pin, I wasn't happy. Feelings of unhappiness persisted through the night & into the morning... e.g. how was I going to tighten it down? Visions of drilling/tapping for a cap bolt swum around. Nah, ugly. Same with welding a bolt to the top, ugly. I can't cut hex holes, haven't got the technology.

Luckily, our next door neighbour here at the shed is a tame racing driver welder (Top Gear fans may make their own Stig jokes up now). So I cleaned the ends of the pin & the stump, and added a "fillet" (the chamfer on both parts):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/072-PinPlus.jpg)

Then my tame welder simply glued them back together:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/073-PinReborn.jpg)

Next, some quality time on the lathe, slowly trimming, tapering, parting off the excess, drilling & tapping for M10, and - some time later:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/074-IsItDoneYet.jpg)

That's better! If you imagine the lathe ways coming towards you, perpendicular to the visible piston, that's where the top handle will be in relation to the tool block. It's a doddle to just back it off 1/2 turn, swivel the toolpost to whatever angle you need it, then scraunch it back down again, job done  :thumbup: The only issue is, when it's really ground down hard, the cam binds up. I think it's because of the various centering/wobble issues I've had while turning, mean that the bottom of the central pin is actually a smidge off centre; and when wound down, it's being pushed into the cam spindle, locking it up too. It's not pushing down at the top, of that I am certain. All I need, then, is to find some valve grinding paste (Can I find any? Can I buggery. Halfrauds don't seem to sell it any more either.) & lap the cam in to the pin (or vice versa, it really doesn't matter which one takes the wear) so it turns a bit more freely. I don't mind if it's a bit stiff to turn, that should help prevent any liklihood of the thing undoing itself in the middle of a vital cut...
Title: Re: Another new project...
Post by: Bluechip on September 16, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
Chemico Grinding & Lapping paste ..... got some from here last year .. then found the local car bits shop sold it ... bugger   :doh:

http://www.frost.co.uk/chemico-lapping-and-grinding-paste.asp

EDIT  It seems yer need to click the pic. Didn't buy 72 tins ... just the one ..

Dave BC
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 17, 2010, 05:33:57 PM
It's finished!*

*for certain values of "finished"

Bit of a marathon session today; the first task was to figure out why the cam spindle was locking up when the central pin is tightened down. I figured it was probably due to the lack of concentricity (is that even a word?) between parts, and probably as the screw thread was tightening up, it was pulling the bottom of the pin out of centre. On that hunch, I whipped a few more thou off the bore of the cam unit (that being the easiest part to hold in the chuck while still cutting the bits I needed to cut). It took a couple of goes, but now the cam operates perfectly in "the zone" in which it's needed.

So, next job, a slight modification to t'underside... X marks the spot, approximately:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/075-XMarksTheSpot.jpg)

Milled 1/4" to within a smidge of the top of the base. Milled with a 6mm ball-end mill (the only type I have) just a smidge (that's an official SI unit, you know) into the base as well, then finally drilled 7mm & tapped M8 for a few turns:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/076-MilledDrilledTapped.jpg)


No prizes for guessing what happens next:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/077-BallBearingStop.jpg)

Yep, there's a ball bearing stuck in there, with the tiniest fragment of a spring, all held in with an M8 bolt (in turn reinforced with Loctite), which was then cut off & filed flat. And that there is my "zero" position; the theory is, when the QCTP is set straight along the ways, the ball will drop into the dimple, so I don't need to think about it to return it to straight, it just goes straight in.

In practice, I think the 6mm ball end mill was a bit too close to the 1/4" ball; so it locates OK, but there's quite a large amount of lateral movement with the ball in the hole. Shame, but never mind, it gets pretty close. If it annoys me too much, I'll just do it again somewhere else (and make a much smaller indent in the bottom of the tool holder.


So, finally, we get to the end of this project; here's the QCTP successfully mounted on the lathe, no fettling required.:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/078-TheMoneyShot.jpg)

I'm pretty chuffed, even if I do say so myself. I have managed to wear/scratch the black surface off in a few places, just with general mishandling and - of course - the rust incident... so I may black it up again in the near future. And, of course, I have the proper handles to make, but they'll just be some 1/2" bar with an M10 thread on the end. The balls will have to wait until I've made a ball turner... but, of course, I now have a dandy base on which to mount any new stuff, like a ball turner. It only takes 10 seconds to whip the QCTP off, another 15 minutes to locate the bl**dy ball turner (or whatever tool is going on instead) from the deepest recesses of the workshop which have never been seen by human eyes (how does stuff end up there?), and another 10 seconds to pop it on & fix it down. MUCH better than all that messing with hold-down bolts, shims, etc. Goodbye 4-way toolpost, you won't be missed (not much, anyway).


I'd like to thank everyone who's commented on this project along the way. :nrocks:  Your comments have been inspiring, and have kept me at it more than once. Thanks in particular Lew for introducing me to a metal even more expensive than having a wife (weight-for-weight), although it did make a fine pair of pistons (the metal, the metal....).

Hopefully, once Bogs has straightened my chuck jaws, I'll be able to make a staight one next time  :lol:

























But.... wait...... what's this?






















Down in the deepest darkest recesses of the workshop......


(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/079-AToolholderIsCalved.jpg)

A toolholder is calved!

Yes, of COURSE this isn't the end of this project! There will be no actual end, 'cos I'll be making toolholders for the rest of my life. I'll do a bit of a photo writeup of the 1st one (the one that's even now being weaned in the basement), after that, no more...

Until tomorrow, then....  :D
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Ned Ludd on September 17, 2010, 09:20:39 PM
Nice job there and soo much cheaper than buying lots of toolholders.

Re. your 6mm ball, the dimple should be made by the next size smaller ball ended mill. For 6mm ball a 5mm mill is used, this allows the ball to sit on the periphery of the dimple and not fill it completely. If it fills it you just don't get a clean and positive location (too much of a cam action). I found this out the hard way after making a batch of indexable drilling jigs for woodturners.
Oh well, you live and learn (hopefully)
Ned
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: ibuildstuff4u on September 17, 2010, 10:59:30 PM
Easy fix,  all you need is bigger balls!

Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Divided he ad on September 18, 2010, 03:29:47 PM
Looking good Ade  :clap:



I'd have thought a smaller dimple too...

My old tool post had a one way affair on it. A spring loaded pin with a smoothed taper on one side (allowing the tool post to be turned to the left) and a flat filed across the back side, so the post could not be turned back to the right once in position.... Not bad but could get annoying if you turned it too far and had to do the full revolution again!
Just another way of doing it.


Tool holders ehh? Hope you're planning to make them in batches?  Could prove tedious?  I'm sure you'll have fun with the first few anyway  :dremel:  :thumbup:





Keep us posted on the rest of the build.... Including the ball turner  :whip:   :)





Ralph.
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Ned Ludd on September 19, 2010, 09:10:52 AM
My dear chap, if I had bigger balls that would make me a Politician on the make. :)
Ned
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: krv3000 on September 20, 2010, 06:44:35 AM
HI thats brill  :)
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: ksor on September 20, 2010, 02:36:16 PM
-->AdeV
Ohhh that's a very nice peace of work you have done here ! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Especialy I like the black finishing of the main block - I have found a description of how to do it on the net and I will try use it on my small vice:

(http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/8/3/9/2839278/4633438.jpg?620)

BUT

I don't want to do all the filing work to remove the "circle-pattern" on the surface - there must be another method to prepare the surface before doing the ecthing !

The surface on my vice is very smooth and very soft and you can NOT feel the "circles", you can only see them - if I start filing or sanding ....  :bang: ohh, I think the surface will be rough and not so smooth and soft as it is now !

On the other side, I think the circles will been visible "under" the black finishing.

How should I prepare the surface then ?
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 20, 2010, 03:50:22 PM
Thanks guys, all praise gratefully received, all hints greedily taken...

Ned - you're right, and as soon as I felt how it worked I was cursing like a good 'un. I'd hoped that using the 6mm ball mill (closest I have to 1/4" - the ball size - and very slightly smaller) would be OK, but as you state, it needs a slightly smaller cut on the tool block so it rests on the rim. Duly noted for next time.

Ralph - my previous toolholder had a one-way mechanism in it (although it could occasionally be defeated, allowing a 90 degree backward turn), an extraordinarily complicated affair full of little springs, pawls, ratchets, levers.... if it had a bit more brass in it it'd almost be a steampunk mechanism... Of course, I only found out about the fancy stuff when I took it apart (trying to figure out how it came off the cross-slide), and the springenwerk went everywhere. Fortunately, I found it all, and - by absolute blind luck - managed to put it all back together again with no bits left over. A miracle!

Bob - thanks fella :)

Ksor - Don't worry about filing the surface. Yes, it looks horrible as you just get started, but as soon as the machine marks start to disappear, the surface takes on a really silky texture. The key things - in my brief experience - are:

 - Use a fine toothed file (not a klunky coarse one)
 - Keep the pressure as even as possible across the file
 - Slow & easy does it
 - Clean the file up every few strokes; I found just wiping it on my "shop coat" did the trick most of the time, but a soft wire brush was occasionally needed to clear a stubborn chip out. Remember - whenever you've got chips stuck in the blade, they drag & make lines in the surface which, inevitably, require another 30 mins of filing to remove...

Once you've done filing, you'll be amazed at how much better the finish is, even than the one you have now. And yes, I've had finishes like yours (which I usually decide is good enough) which you simply can't feel the marks.

Incidentally... I've always stopped after the filing stage (or after 1 stage of wet&dry paper (120 grit); there's nothing to stop you doing exactly the same draw technique using ever higher grits, until about 800 or 1000; then move onto polish, and you'll eventually have a true mirror finish - Ralph (Divided he ad) will point you towards polishing techniques, I'm sure).

The blacking BTW will work just fine with the finish you have there, but you will still be able to see the machining marks. I can still see every little scratch & ding on the toolpost, whether it occurred before or after the blacking...

Ah - to answer your actual question, yes there is one other way to remove the maching marks; a very very very light surface grind on a proper surface grinder, with a fine grit wheel, would leave you again with a silky smooth finish; if you then wanted to go further & get a mirror polish, you're into the polishing mops, brasso, etc.
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 20, 2010, 04:11:56 PM
Right, now on with the show, such as it is...

Apologies for the delay - Sunday morning was spent standing in a muddy field somewhere near Stoke-on-Trent, collecting a rusty water pump which wants some machining work, and also riding a genuine coal-fired steam powered narrow gauge railway - it was their grand official opening. Naturally, it rained continuously. Good old British weather.

The afternoon was mostly spent bothering Bogs, breaking his grit wheels and generally getting under his feet. I think I'm right in saying a good time was had by all :) Well, once the palpitations caused by the broken grit wheel & flying lathe chuck jaw had subsided

The evening was spent "finishing" the toolholder, trying out the newly ground square chuck jaws, and pottering.... And most of tonight was spent fitting a new quill spring to the Bridgeport (the 1st replacement having broken when I got frustrated with a recalcitrant woodruff key & smacked it with a hammer. It didn't like that...) Of course, the Olde Screw Shoppe didn't have any #10-24 screws in stock, but they did have a die, so I made my own.

So.. the toolholder... Well, you saw the lump of steel. I soon had it squared off in the mill, and the dovetail slot roughed out:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/080-RoughDovetails.jpg)

After cutting the dovetails, a quick test fit:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/081-TestDovetails.jpg)

Next up, mill out the toolslot:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/082-CutToolSlot.jpg)

Final operations (no pix of these, sorry): Mill a slot off the top so the bolts I had would reach (only had 25mm bolts...) Drill 4 holes to hold the tool in place, and another hole to work the height adjust. I didn't leave quite enough material to contain the whole thread, so I drilled/tapped it deep & used some stud to hold a home-made "washer" (also drilled & tapped). The result of all this bodgery is as follows:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/083-Finished-1.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/084-Finished-2.jpg)

And here it is on the lathe (had to skim nearly 0.010" off the piston before the tool would drop over it):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/085-Finished-3.jpg)

And - taken yesterday when it had the boring bar mounted in it - taking it's first ever cut!:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/086-Finished-4.jpg)


Subsequent toolholders will be a bit "fatter" (2" rather than 1.5"), and I'll hopefully find a shorter piece of metal, so I don't have to cut an inch off it every time...
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Bogstandard on September 20, 2010, 08:39:23 PM
Ade,

I meant to show you the adjusting bits I made for my tool holders when you called yesterday.

Instead of making a washer to go under the nut, just get a length of bar the same diameter as your 'washer', knurl the outside for a few inches (50 to 75mm), then drill and tap the same thread as you are using. Part them off to about 3mm thick whenever you want a new length adjuster. Once it is screwed onto the thread for exact height, your nut is then used to lock it into position.

Like shown in the last few pics of this post.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg24924#msg24924


John
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 21, 2010, 05:23:59 AM
Ade,

I meant to show you the adjusting bits I made for my tool holders when you called yesterday.

Instead of making a washer to go under the nut, just get a length of bar the same diameter as your 'washer', knurl the outside for a few inches (50 to 75mm), then drill and tap the same thread as you are using. Part them off to about 3mm thick whenever you want a new length adjuster. Once it is screwed onto the thread for exact height, your nut is then used to lock it into position.

Like shown in the last few pics of this post.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg24924#msg24924


Hi John - I'd planned to do something pretty similar to that - I don't have a knurling tool yet, so I was going to use the dividing head on the mill + a ball nose cutter to make a sort of revolver chamber effect. I was going to use brass, but I've only got 6mm, 12mm and 1.75".. so I think I'll just use some of that bar you gave me for now.

The "washer" I made is actually drilled/tapped to thread onto the stud; the reason I didn't turn one was because I didn't have the use of the lathe at the time.... Now I can mount stuff more or less straight, I can do it proper...
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: lordedmond on September 21, 2010, 08:57:09 AM
OT for this thread

AdeV did you ever get that tap out of the dry sump build ?




if so how


Stuart
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 21, 2010, 09:12:03 AM
Hi Stuart,

Nope, they're still (mostly) in there. I seem to have generated an awful lot of rusty foam, and bugger all else....

Look out for more progress on that thread soon (I needed to finish this project off first, if only so I have a project I can actually called "finished"!)

I'm probably going to do something John (Bogs) suggested, and drill round them with a hole cutter, and instead of drilling/tapping I'll just glue pins in. Maybe with a screw in piece at the top just to act as a retainer, although that's probably not strictly necessary, if I make the pin slightly tapered at the top end, and use my Big Plastic Smacking Hammer to fit it...
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: lordedmond on September 21, 2010, 09:36:58 AM
thanks sorry for the OT


Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 21, 2010, 04:57:25 PM
No problem Stuart - I frequently go off-topic myself, usually in the middle of a sentence, or post...

Anyway; tool-holder time. I did say I wasn't going to do a build log of these, but I find I can't help myself... Oh well, at least you get to suffer too...

So, I scored a nice lump of tool-holder-style metal - 3"x2"x1 metre. Which is great, except I needed 3.5"x2"xmetre - damn! 3" doesn't leave enough meat around the root of the dovetail; so Plan A (cut long dovetails down the 3.5" side, then "part off" toolholders to the desired height using the hacksaw, as required; went straight out of the window. Instead, I had to cut the bar into 3.5" lengths, each of which is now 3" high & 2" thick. Hey ho, them's the rubs.

Poor old Manchester the Hacksaw has been working overtime today, although I did treat him to a new blade. Here's a bunch of freshly cut blocks:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/087-ToolHolders-01.jpg)

Each one was then treated to a squaring cut:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/088-ToolHolders-02.jpg)

The surface finish may be lousy, but when stood on a single parallel it pretty much guarantees that the bottom is dead nuts square to the back jaw face; so when I skim the top face, it'll be nicely square & true with the same face. So when I flip it over & properly skim this side, it'll also be square & true. That's the theory, at least...

By closing time tonight, I'd got this far:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/089-ToolHolders-03.jpg)

2 rough, 5 with just the single true-ing cut, 2 with one face finished. There is the tiniest of ridges (can be heard when running a fingernail in one direction across the finish), so just a smidge out of tram. Nothing the file won't cure.
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 23, 2010, 05:54:38 PM
A little progress today - I needed to take one block to completion, so I at least had a turning tool, as well as a boring bar and/or parting tool to play with...

After carefully surfacing one block on both sides, I decided to see just how true it was. The results are not impressive:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/090-SupposedToBeFlat.jpg)

Mind you, those measurements were using a depth gauge onto the surface plate. The dial calipers (both dial & digital) gave a different reading - although they at least agreed with each other. I need a height gauge.... and I need to try to fix that bloody vice.

Anyway - the rest of the ops you've seen: Mill the slot, drill the holes. At least this one is deep enough... and here it is, along with another new (to me) tool, first time I've ever used a steady rest:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/lathe/qctp/091-AllTheToys.jpg)

L8r...
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Bernd on September 23, 2010, 06:48:03 PM
"L8r"  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch: Oh, "Later"  :bang:

Hey Ade, at least your close on those dimensions. I won't think you'd ever notice once the tool holder is done. Quite a pruduction you got going there.  :dremel:

Bernd
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 23, 2010, 07:57:04 PM
"L8r"  :scratch:  :scratch:  :scratch: Oh, "Later"  :bang:

Sorry, couldn't resist m8  :D I'll take the (http://helmies.org.uk/slap.gif)

Hey Ade, at least your close on those dimensions. I won't think you'd ever notice once the tool holder is done. Quite a pruduction you got going there.  :dremel:

Agreed, for toolholders, the dimensions aren't that critical, but I'd like to have the confidence that my vice is capable of holding to within a thou or two at worst; not +/- 8 thou...
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: Bernd on September 23, 2010, 08:28:19 PM
Yeah, that M8 threw me for a while too when I seen Tel use it on HMEM, until I sounded it out. I first thought is was half of a M-16 rifle.  :lol:

Sounds like a new vise is in order here. Make up a few of those aluminum sumps and I'm sure you could get a hansome price. Enough to afford a very nice vice.  :)

Bernd

Hey it's 8:30PM here and your still awake at 1:30AM?
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: AdeV on September 24, 2010, 02:24:05 AM

Sounds like a new vise is in order here. Make up a few of those aluminum sumps and I'm sure you could get a hansome price. Enough to afford a very nice vice.  :)

Bernd

Hey it's 8:30PM here and your still awake at 1:30AM?

Yeah, I find there's not quite enough hours in the day to allow me to do everything I want to do - by the time work has sucked 8 hours of life away, the workshop took nearly 5 yesterday, which barely left time to sleep, let alone post on the forums.... and here I am again at 7.20am, just 6 hours later. Ouch.

Vice-wise, I'm sure this one can be saved; it's just a case of finding a way to get it absolutely dead level across the bottom. It doesn't look like the datum faces are hardened in any way, so I can probably just mill it level - although what it probably really wants is a surface grind.
Title: Re: Another new project... a QCTP (Quick Change Toolpost)
Post by: SemiSkilled on September 24, 2010, 02:44:41 AM
 Hi Ade I don't know if you've seen this,


http://rick.sparber.org/Articles/sj/sj6.pdf


an article on soft jaws for the mill, just food for thought.

L8r m8 :coffee:

Lee.