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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: NickG on February 02, 2010, 06:41:25 AM

Title: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 02, 2010, 06:41:25 AM
Hi all,

I've had a bit of a break from the workshop after the trials and tribulations of getting my Jan Ridders Internal Valve Flame Licker running. I decided towards the end of that project to make a 'Poppin' flame licker which is a more conventional design> I decided on that incase I was utterly disappointed and couldn't get the other one working, but now I intend to go through with it, mainly as I am intrigued to see how different they are to make and how differently their running characteristics are. It will also introduce some new machining / modelling techniques that I haven't used before. So I bought enough materials to do two when I had my pessemistic head on, basically so I could make anything twice to get it to work if need be!  :lol: Now, the plan is to learn from previous experience and carefully make two of everything so I end up with 2 engines! I was going to try to keep this shorter and sweeter than my other build logs as I tend to ramble a bit and it takes twice as long to finish a project! Not sure whether I can do that though - lets find out!

Last night I made a start with the cylinder - no pics at the moment but it's still in the lathe so I'll get a couple of snap shots tonight. If I get things right, it shouldn't take twice as long to make two engines as I should save a bit here and there on set up times. So I'm planning on completing these in a month - knowing me and my past predictions, that could easily stretch to two!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: spuddevans on February 02, 2010, 06:54:33 AM
Sounds good Nick  :thumbup:

( waits on edge of seat for promised pics to appear  :coffee: )


Tim
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 02, 2010, 08:57:12 AM
I know -  :worthless:

I wish I could get pics as good as yours Tim but I don't think they ever will be!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on February 02, 2010, 11:31:48 AM
mine is still on the back burner :(

got some home work to get done and i'll get it done :lol:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 03, 2010, 05:17:50 AM
Made a bit more progress last night.

This was how far I had got with the cylinder. Simple really - face end, centre drill, support with revolving centre, turn to diameter, turn grooves with parting tool (I didn't grind a special tool to width, just recalculated the number of grooves and widths I could do with my tool), drill and bore out 5 thou undersize to leave for reaming with adjustable reamer.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0221-11-44_0001.jpg)

Next I needed to polish it a bit and part it off. Then I thought while I had the right diameter I would part off the two cylinder covers. I had already drilled 1/4" through to that part of the bar before hand so all I had to do was countersink each one first then part off:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0221-47-03_0002.jpg)

I then got the 2nd cylinder to the same stage as the first so this is where I am up to:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0223-29-40_0003.jpg)

I still need to face the cylinders, ream for a nice finish in the bore and drill and tap holes on each end and for oil cup. For the cylinder covers I need to drill clearance holes for screws that fasten them on and lap both sides, one to seal with the valve nicely and the other with the end of the cylinder.

So far so good but don't think I'll make any progress tonight, Leeds vs Tottenham game is on  (4th round FA cup replay)!

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 03, 2010, 08:58:46 AM
Yer`ve got off to a good start Nick!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: spuddevans on February 03, 2010, 10:44:54 AM
Looking good there :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on February 03, 2010, 11:53:22 AM
Hi Nick

Looking good  :thumbup: what plans are you following ? or are you working to your own.

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 03, 2010, 01:16:02 PM
Stew, I am following plans for 'poppin' which was serialised in Live Steam magazine in the 80's. It looks a pretty well thought out design.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on February 05, 2010, 03:39:58 PM
Nice to see you on another flamer build, Nick.  Good progress already!

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 07, 2010, 05:08:27 AM
Thanks David, Tim, Stew and Dean,

I 've been struck down with Man Flu  :lol: I musn't have had a bad cold for about 2 years so forgot how bad it was! Anyway, still made a small amount of progress -

First I put the cylinders back in the 3 jaw with some protective thin aluminium around them and faced to length before using the adjusable reamer, I had adjusted it just about spot on, made it slightly larger than I had measured it and reamed right through at about 45rpm with cutting oil - this has produced a good smooth finish and very parallel and accurately sized bores - they have actually come out at 0.625" as intended, am quite astonished!

I then made a bit of a jig from nylon which had a 5/8" spigot and a smaller 1/4" one to hold the cylinder covers concentric. Gripped that in the milling vice and let the cylinder rest against the top of the vice jaws - probably not the best practice but I marked a cross on the cylinder covers with a centre square and a set square by eye. I then found the centre of my spigot in the milling machine and wound it out to the 0.422" or whatever radius it was then put a dab of loctite on the cyl covers to hold them on whilst spotting through with a centre drill, turning it around and drilling on each of the 4 scribed lines. This has produced a decent and repeatable result, I think the 2 covers will both fit on any of the 4 cylinder ends so I may have got lucky. If not, it wouldn't have mattered, they would have just been matched. I nearly messed up drilling the bolt holes on the other end of the cylinder - they have to be in the same place at both ends which only just occured to me before drilling. This is because there has to be a gap at the bottom for the valve to pass through! I opened the holes up to 8ba tapping size on the normal drill since

I didn't take any pictures of the jig yet but it's still in the milling machine as i still need to tap the holes so will get some pics tonight. I lapped both sides of each cylinder cover too.

I was a little bored of the cylinders by this time so on Fri night I decided to do something else – thought I’d try the oil cups. When I looked at the drawings the small numbers scared me but I thought they have to be done sometime so I’ll try and stick to it.

So chucked some brass hex in the 3 jaw and turned the outer body dia and smaller neck dia that’s threaded to go into the cylinder. This brass was rock hard – much harder to turn than stainless, I should maybe have used that.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0521-33-21_0001.jpg)

 I then had to drill a 0.020” hole – no way I was trying that so I used my smallest number drill instead, no. 60 0.040” ! Twice the size but still the smallest hole I’ve drilled and small enough in my opinion! So the hole was drilled at the lathes max speed 720rpm, it coped surprisingly well, I had to drill about ¼” or so deep so just took it steady and didn’t break the drill to my surprise.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0521-43-53_0004.jpg)

I then cut the 8ba thread using one of my xmas pressies:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0521-48-04_0002.jpg)

Sawed it off, turned around in the chuck, drilled out with number 13 or something which broke into the tiny hole, then faced to length.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0522-03-23_0003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0522-05-27_0005.jpg)

Quite happy with the result but I then had to repeat the whole process for the other one which is starting to bore me having to do everything twice but I’ve got to remember I’ll have 2 engines then!

Next job is to tap all the holes in the cylinders and do the pistons and yokes before I start on the frames.

Nick
 
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 07, 2010, 05:19:19 AM
PS can't seem to get the camera to focus in on this small things which is quite annoying as it's supposed to be one of the best compact digital types. Maybe it's the light.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: kellswaterri on February 07, 2010, 11:02:23 AM
Hi Nick, I see the reamer worked for you all right, but if I have read your post correctly...''hand reamer, adjustable'' in lathe...decidely dodgy  :bugeye: but it did the job and you are coming on well with the build.
All the best for now,
                           John.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Powder Keg on February 07, 2010, 11:10:43 AM
Looking pretty nice there Nick!!!

On the camera... There should be a Icon somewhere on it saying tat it is focused. On mine there is a red square in the center that turns green when it is focused. Make sure you have plenty of light and turn off the flash on the camera. I have an extra light mounted over my mill, lathe, and work bench. This helps alot!!! Also, I've found that I try to get too close to my subject. I found that if I back up just a couple inches I have better results.

Thanks,
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sorveltaja on February 07, 2010, 01:55:50 PM
PS can't seem to get the camera to focus in on this small things which is quite annoying as it's supposed to be one of the best compact digital types. Maybe it's the light.

Nick, does your camera have a macro-function? it usually helps when taking closer shots. More important is an even ambient lighting, that isn't much of a problem at the summer, but at the winter it would be a good practise to use white background.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on February 07, 2010, 07:01:53 PM
Nice looking oil cup, Nick.  One more to go?  Double the fun!

Two things for your focus problem. 
1)  Push the button on the back of the camera that has an icon that looks like a tulip, or that says "macro".

2)  If it won't focus on a small item, put your finger or something like a small rule next to the item until it says it's focused.

3)  Don't use the flash unless you have too.  It blows out small bits, and makes them look out of focus, even when they're not.

4)  Check the shot after you take it to see if you got what you want.

Okay, that's four things.  Toldja, double the fun.

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 08, 2010, 07:58:23 AM
John,

I think a lot of people use hand reamers in the lathe, why is it dodgy? Do you mean there is a safety issue? If so I won't be doing it again. I ran the lathe speed very low and held the reamer with a tap wrench fed in with a reolving centre to let it float. I've seen this method used a lot in magazine articles in model engineer and such like.

Wes / S / Dean, thanks for the advice. Mine does the same when focused with the green box. I did have macro engaged, it's got an intelligent auto function that basically sorts everything out for you, or is supposed to! It did engage macro but I also had the flash on, I have a light over the lathe.

I tried a few times but not without the flash so I probably need more light and no flash. Will try the something else to focus on trick too. I may need to go away from the fully automatic mode.

Here it is:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/LUMIX+Digital+Cameras/Super+Zoom/DMC-TZ6/Overview/2032514/index.html

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 09, 2010, 07:06:41 PM
Quick update, not a great deal of progress but worth mentioning.

I started by taking a couple of snaps of the simple jig I made to drill the holes as promised. It's not really the best jig, all it does is fix the radius and concenter the cover and cylinder. The rest had to be done by eye on markings on the cylinder cover just by gluing the cover on and rotating the cylinder. Seems to have been effective though and worked well.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0921-33-20_0002.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0921-32-48_0001.jpg)

I then wondered which part to make next and pontificated on a number of methods. I had some brass large enough and enough to do 2 flywheels, also had a bit of steel to do another 2. Then I found some brass 1/2" plate which I could have used. Or, some 2" steel which would make them 1/8" under size.

Anyway, whilst on the netti, I came to the decision to use the 2" steel as I would have little or no OD turning do do if I could drill centrally, just a bit of a polish up. I decided I wouldn't pussy foot about and would try to part off the blanks from the stock. So I went out full of enthusiasm, set the parting tool to the minimum overhang that would do the job, selected a suitable speed - very slow, back gear engaged, about 70 odd rpm, slowest cross feed to keep it nice and constant and even got ready with some suds in a syringe.

Then disaster almost struck - before I could react, this happened:  :doh:  :(

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0922-01-16_0003.jpg)

I’ve moved the saddle a bit in that photo, the blade dug in shattered, and sounded like it hit all 4 walls, floor and ceiling but luckily missed me.
This was my thought process immediately after switching power off:

1.   Oh ****, ******* ********.
2.   I’m ok.
3.   That could have been worse.
4.   Actually I might have mangled the chuck and caused damage to the machine.
5.   I think I might give up this hobby.
6.   Take a step back and calm down a bit.

Seriously, it scared me. I’ve never parted off anything that’s steel as the feeling I get and noise have always put me off. This time I went for it as I thought I was being soft in the past, I thought I was doing it correctly but obviously not.

When I did calm down there seemed a tight spot on the chuck jaws, something has probably got bent. I took the jaws out, cleaned and reinstalled and it works, but there is a slight tight spot at some point so I must have done some sort of damage. It still grips and seems concentric though so hopefully I’ve got away with it.

Here is the damage to the metal:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0922-06-13_0005.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0922-07-13_0006.jpg)

There are a few major safety points that should go without saying:

1.   Always wear eye protection – make sure you have eye protection you can see out of and are comfortable wearing and make sure you always wear it. I could easily be lying in a hospital bed wondering if I’d ever see again rather than writing this.
2.   If in doubt, stop, I had a doubt in my mind I would be able to part this off but was trying to save time. I should have reached for the hacksaw at that point.
3.   If you have a chuck guard you should probably use it. That piece of steel very nearly came out of the chuck – at the speed it was rotating it wouldn’t have been flung and I’m not saying the guard would have stopped it but it could only have helped matters. I’ll be using mine more in future that’s for sure.

I didn’t think there’d be an issue with me gripping on the threads of that bar, but with hindsight it may have been part of the problem. They were probably the weak point, deforming and allowing the stock to move.  :hammer: I did consider turning a parallel section to grip on but then I thought, it’ll grip tight on the threads and they will probably let the chuck jaws dig in a bit and get better grip.

So, I’ve calmed down a bit and the following hour and a half was spend with the hacksaw for punishment – aching now! :lol::
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-0923-30-33_0004.jpg)

I did face the stock between each hack saw cut so at least  1 side of each blank is faced. Got a nice finish using the suds too, very good.

I could have not mentioned this mishap but I think it’s worth sharing these near misses just to give people a prod and make them think about things twice.

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on February 09, 2010, 11:06:18 PM
A nasty bit of trouble there, Nick.  Sorry to see it happen to anyone, and especially such a nice guy.

I hope you will take my comments as just a few remarks from a fellow machinist impersonator, with a fair number of this type of job behind him.  (Even when I got paid for doing it, I felt like an impersonator!);

The piece was sticking out of the chuck quite a long way.  Parting off puts more side pressure on the spindle/work/work holding device than almost anything else, other than knurling, and maybe running a profile tool into the work.
 
Not knowing the size of your lathe, but getting a sense of scale seeing that you are cutting 2" dia steel, this may have been too much for the lathe in the first place, but there are some things that would have helped prevent such a violent outcome.

First, since the pieces would have a bore in them anyway, it would have been a good idea to put a center in the unsupported end.  You shouldn't part off completely with a center in the tail of the piece, but you can do about 80 percent of the job that way, and finish with a saw.  The reason not to do it all the way through is the piece will pinch at the end of the cut, causing a similar problem to what you have here.

Second, having the parting blade stick far enough out of the tool holder to make the complete cut is trouble.  They wobble like a noodle, and if you had an inch and a half sticking out, it didn't have much of a chance.

Finally, just too much sticking out of the chuck.  That far out, and the effective runout of the spindle is magnified.  The work deflects a few thou, and again, the tool gets pinched, and pop!

This is one place for sure that you need plenty of lube, too. 

Parting off is kind of a tough operation, especially when you're just getting to know the procedure.  Don't let it scare you off, though.  It's a normal shop op.  Find some smaller diameter pieces to practice on.  Put them in the chuck with only enough sticking out to get the tool to the cut off point.  I would think some size that will pass through your spindle would be a good practice size, and try some leaded steel if you have it.   Lots of lube and a very steady feed will do it.

Very glad there was no bloodshed associated with this, and I hope it doesn't put you off this type of operation. 
It's meant to be done, but it does have to be sized to the size, weight and power of your lathe.
Glad you got the job done, and thanks for showing us some more progress.  I'll bet your poor arm is just drooping!


Your camera;
"it's got an intelligent auto function..." 
It will most likely do what ever it wants at that setting.  Put that thing into submission.  The folks who program these functions think they know what you want.  They are often wrong.

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Darren on February 10, 2010, 01:30:31 AM
Nick, if I remember rightly you have a Harison 6" (12" swing) lathe?

This should have coped with parting this piece, except you would have needed to use a tailstock center as that part looks to be 6" long? The treaded end in the chuck prob made it unstable.

This is 2" diameter and very tough steel

(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/1024/Milling%20Tool%20Holder/IMG_3850.jpg)
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on February 10, 2010, 03:21:34 AM
Hi Nick

Bin there done that got the grey hairs, look on it as a learning exercise, no blood spilt which is a good thing.

Deans advice was spot on  :thumbup:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 10, 2010, 03:59:54 AM
Ooohhhh....... Nick!  :bugeye:

All part of the "fun" that is home machining!   :wave:

No one damaged..... That`s the main thing! :thumbup:


Like wot Stew said, Dean`s spot on.....

I would have machined away the threads under the jaws, for a better grip . (Or held the bar t`other way round).

Very small centre drill hole, with centre in place to support, but no real pressure applied.

1" bar...... 250rpm
2" bar...... 120rpm
3" bar........ 70rpm

Part in to a depth of 1/2" or so, only. Then saw through the reduced diameter.

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 10, 2010, 06:49:20 AM
Thanks for the advice Dean and all.

Just for info, the lathe is a Harrison L5 - 4.5" x 24" or something. Very robustly built, although not as robust as Darren's, with 2 hp ph1 motor.

I've parted cast iron, gun metal and aluminium with no problems but this was steel to spec in attachment. It seems to machine nicely but fairly tough. There is about 3 1/2" protruding from the outer edge of the jaws.

I was going to hold it with the centre - I don't know why I didn't, just thought it would all be rigid enough. I'd say the parting blade was stuck out just over an inch. So in future I should make the initial cut with just a small bit sticking out then extend it, then it will be supported by the cut walls of the stock I guess the further you get in?

I will have to try some different smaller diameters of steel. I was going to make the thin cam disc from cast iron as I know I can part that but my try it from steel as an exercise. Not sure how much parting blade is left in there now!

I feel like I've had a good work out cutting the blanks by hand.

Should have mentioned before, I did do the 2nd oil cup - there are just 1 per engine, perched on top of cylinder.

Thanks for the advice, am coming back around to the idea of parting!

Nick


Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: andyf on February 10, 2010, 07:38:44 AM
I too have had problems with a "blade in a holder" parting tool. I reckon some of my difficulty might come from not getting the cutting edge dead square with the sides of the blade when I sharpen it, so the blade, being thin and thus having a bit of flex, gets steered increasingly off course, trying to flex more and more as it goes further in. The larger the diameter of the stock, the more the overhang of the blade, giving it more opportunity to flex. Then again, my problems may just stem from ham-fistedness and lack of experience.

I need to experiment to see if setting the blade short for minimum flex, going in say 1/4", and then pulling some more blade out of the holder will enable the sides of the 1/4" deep groove to keep the blade on course. At present, I'm using a parting tool ground on the end of a square HSS blank for greater rigidity, but I can only get just over 1/4" in with it before the saw has to come into play. But even that shallow groove gets me well on the way - in terms of cross-sectional area, a 2" dia, 1" radius bar is 3.14 sq inches. With a 1/4" groove round it, there's 3/4" of radius = 1.76 sq inches left to saw through, so 44% of the job has been done by the parting tool.

Andy
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Darren on February 10, 2010, 08:00:17 AM
I too had problems with HSS parting blades cutting steel. OK for brass and such though.

Then I bought an insert parting tool, different world. Now I part off under power and it can be quite a rapid speed too.
This one had left and right cutting edges so quite versatile as well.


(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/Dovetails/IMG_3543.jpg)
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: slowcoach on February 10, 2010, 08:26:12 AM

1.   Oh ****, ******* ********.
2.   I'm ok.
3.   That could have been worse.
4.   Actually I might have mangled the chuck and caused damage to the machine.
5.   I think I might give up this hobby.
6.   Take a step back and calm down a bit




I've been there Nick. Completely sh*t*ng myself and then giving myself a good b*ll*cking  :)

Rob  :thumbup:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 10, 2010, 09:32:40 AM
Andy, good points made there.

That looks a handy tool Darren.

Rob, yes, that's what happened!  :)

Starting to feel slightly better that I can have another go and attack it in a different way this time  :smart:

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on February 12, 2010, 08:46:45 AM
PS can't seem to get the camera to focus in on this small things which is quite annoying as it's supposed to be one of the best compact digital types. Maybe it's the light.
Hi Nick,  looks like you got a good start on those TWO engines, and you'll probably end up with two working models when you're done.  I had a problem with taking any kind of machine pictures with my digital camera, and someone suggested finding the manual focus control.  Once I did that, my pictures started coming out good, I usually take two or three from different angles, as the glare of light seems to pop up with no sense of responsibility at all.  I'm starting to work on a "poppin' engine" using my first discarded cylinder from my radial, it'll have a one inch bore, since I was already drilled out to that when I screwed up the base flange, but you and a couple others have been kind enough to send the plans, and I do need to do something small while this other takes huge amounts of time.  Your using the adjustable reamer is good news, as I need to ream out about a thousanths of taper from my cylinders before then can be honed, and I wasn't sure an ajustable reamer would leave a clean enough cut.  Great job so far  mad jack :headbang:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 12, 2010, 12:44:48 PM
I'll have to try that madjack.  Would be interesting to see your version of poppin, you're right, sometimes you need a break and a quick win whilst in the middle of a large project. Adjustable reamer seemed to work spot on for the cast iron.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on February 12, 2010, 01:29:21 PM
Nick, what a week you've had!

sorry to read about your parting mishap.

keep up the good work :thumbup:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on February 15, 2010, 11:26:47 AM
Hi Nick,  I've often chucked on threads with the exact notion you mentioned, but have used the opportunity to use greater clamping force on account of having less clamping area for the force to spread over.  This actually insets the chuck jaws into self-made pockets, and if you don't get them drawn out, they are more secure and will carry more torque.  With such overhang though, it is best to use a tailstock center while using the cutoff tool, and if possible, drill the center hole first, so the blade will run into air, and not an increasingly straight cut.  When I get close to the end of the cut, I back out the tailstock center just a hair, enough so it still turns with the work, but will slip a bit when pressure of the tool is backed off.  It can also make a big difference with steel if you use a bench grinder and grind a slight hollow in the top of the cutoff blade, so there are a couple of degrees of positive back rake in the tool.  I always sharpen my high speed tools with a grinder and finish the job with a diamond lap, lapping each surface that gets contact.  It can make all the difference in the world.
     I'm glad to see you making good progress, and watching close so my build will be easier.  For this I thank you.  Mad Jack :beer:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 17, 2010, 06:27:49 AM
Madjack,

Thanks for the advice. I had already done as you had mentioned on the parting blade but the rest I will have to put down to experience!

Unfortunately I've picked up some vomiting bug on monday and today is the first day I've started feeling ok. Only kept down 2 slices of toast and 1/2 bag of crisps in the last 48 hours, touch wood it's going to stay down and I'll be able to get back in the garage tomorrow (thurs) night.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on February 17, 2010, 01:38:42 PM
Madjack,

Thanks for the advice. I had already done as you had mentioned on the parting blade but the rest I will have to put down to experience!

Unfortunately I've picked up some vomiting bug on monday and today is the first day I've started feeling ok. Only kept down 2 slices of toast and 1/2 bag of crisps in the last 48 hours, touch wood it's going to stay down and I'll be able to get back in the garage tomorrow (thurs) night.

Nick
hope you are felling better :thumbup:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on February 19, 2010, 05:58:51 PM
Thanks, Jim

I'd say I'm back to 95% now, not sure what the 95% is of but nevertheless, feeling a lot better.

I’ve finally got my self back into the garage for a couple of hours and made a little progress. Things seem to keep getting in the way of this project.

I started by facing all the flywheel blanks to about 10 thou over thickness to leave a little to skim at the end.
Seeing as though I have a few of each part to do I am trying to do a sort of mini production line on this job, completing operations rather than the part. So I left the lathe saddle where it was and faced across each blank. They came out within a few thou of each other so I scribbled the sizes on so I knew how much to take off on the next operations.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-1921-15-35_0001.jpg)

I then centre drilled one of the blanks and drilled out to 5/16” hole ready to turn the recess. I thought I’d be able to do this with my standard carbide tool that I now seem to be able to use for most jobs! After struggling on for about 10 mins I got a 20 thou deep recess that my 1 year old son could have chewed out better with his few teeth! The tool just didn’t have the right clearances, I don’t know why I thought I’d get away with it, it was just rubbing far too much everywhere.

So I decided to take a step back and think about it for a few seconds, then grind an HSS tool just for the job. This sketch shows the angles I ground it to:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/FlywheelTool.jpg)

This now worked an absolute tread, was very pleased with myself! Don’t know why but it was satisfying to watch it cut, I could cut 30 thou at a time with no chatter or anything. So I quickly turned the recesses on a couple of the flywheels, then got a bit tired and bored and came in. It took little time to do though so not worried about that now.
Here is a pic showing 2 flywheels, 1 has a larger recess in 1 side to clear the cam and roller.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-1922-54-18_0002.jpg)

It is only now that I realise how light these flywheels are and probably one of the reasons poppin runs so fast. There are 4 9/16” lightening holes called for on the drawings but I’m going to go for 6 smaller holes as I can use the 3 jaws of the chuck to divide those. I will probably turn up a mandrel to mount on in the milling machine and drill in the same way I did the cylinder holes. Should be really quick to spot them all with centre drill then open up that way.

I won’t be getting much more done on this in the coming days – family do tomorrow,  might get a bit done sun night but then away with work until thurs night when I should hopefully pick it back up.
Might go for the crankshafts for a change after these flywheels are sorted.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on February 19, 2010, 06:58:39 PM
Glad to see you back in the shop!
Sometimes tool clearances just give me fits.  I do most of my own tool grinding, and now and then, I just have get a piece of paper,
draw a circle and a center spot on it, and put my tool blank up against it to check it out.

Looks like you had a similar idea and got the job done it good fashion.  That's a fair amount of metal removal for
one sitting, unless you have a large machine. 
Good job, Nick.

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on February 20, 2010, 11:13:11 AM
Hi Nick sorry to hear you've bin a bit croak. I was wondering why you hadn't posted.

Good work with the fly wheels.  :thumbup:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 03, 2010, 07:10:17 PM
Hi guys,

The lathe is a fair size and more rigid than most Dean, it's a Harrison L5 9 x 24" but the capacity doesn't tell the full story, it's bigger than it sounds! It's been a good purchase, I wish my milling machine was of the same ilk but you win some you lose some!

Well I've had a couple of short sessions in the workshop since my last post. For some reason I just can't get motivated / finding it hard to find the time, then when I do I'm in by 22:00 where as before sometimes I was in the shop until 2am - that's probably not good I know, but still got more done that way!

Anyway, onto the build:

The first job was to get all of the flywheels to the same stage with the recesses turned out, remembering to do 2 flywheels with the larger dia. recess on one side to clear the cam disc.

I then blued the flywheels and marked them up for the lightening holes by using the jaws of the 3 jaw chuck to index the 6 holes.

The idea then was to set about making an arbor to hold the flywheel on – this way I could set the milling machine to the right place then simply fasten each flywheel to the arbor in turn and index around lining up by eye with the markings, tighten nut, then drill. There would still be a bit of manual adjustment but only 1 adjustment for each hole.

Threading arbour in lathe with tailstock die holder:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-2521-54-49_0001.jpg)

Here is the arbour:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-2522-19-56_0002.jpg)

So I plonked it in the milling vice, centred the quill and wound it out to the rad that the lightening holes lie on and started drilling:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-2522-55-13_0004.jpg)

I soon realized that this method was still taking a while – I had to drill 24 holes, 6 on each of 4 flywheels but opened up gradually too. As soon as I started opening the holes up it became less easy to find the centre of the hole by eye.

Luckily, I had a brainwave – I say luckily because by chance I had made the arbor from hexaganol bar – my indexing method was sat there looking me right in the face and I couldn’t see it!

So with a vice depth stop in place (thanks Tim!), all I had to do was clamp the flywheel onto the arbor, slacken the vice and index around onto the 6 flats of the hex bar! This made if very quick to do.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-2523-22-37_0001.jpg)

Here are the flywheel s at similar stages:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-02-2600-41-52_0005.jpg)

Once I got to the larger size I was having massive problems with getting the drill to cut – It did a little then just refused, with or without cutting oil, tried regrinding etc but it was making a right mess chewing through the steel on the first flywheel  I did. So I used a slot drill instead, this worked much better, quicker and cleaner.

Once all the holes were drilled I put the arbor back in the lathe and turned a parallel register on the other end. Turned it around and turned a new location diameter for the flywheels  (see last pic) I then left the arbor in the chuck and clamped each flywheel on in turn to true up the OD. This should make them run true.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0323-00-01_0006.jpg)

Here are the two pairs of flywheels, I’ve left the centres as they came from the lathe so I can paint.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0323-10-17_0007.jpg)

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on March 04, 2010, 01:33:47 AM
It's going well, Nick.
I can't remember which forum I'm watching you on, from one day to the next.  Some here, some the other place.
Anyway, still watching your build!

: )

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 04, 2010, 03:26:46 AM
It's going well, Nick.
I can't remember which forum I'm watching you on, from one day to the next.  Some here, some the other place.
Anyway, still watching your build!

: )

Dean

Yeah.... I`m watching in stereo too! ::)

It`s all looking good Nick.

Love the hexagon indexer....... Well done...  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 04, 2010, 03:31:40 AM
Hi Dean & David,

Thanks, I'll be starting something new tonight, glad those flywheels are out of the way!

I've lost track myself - I think I might have replied to peoples posts from here on the other forum!

I think in future I won't be able to go into this detail on my projects, It'll just be a quick description of what I'm doing then a brief write up of how it went, any issues I had and some photo's  / video of the finished thing.

I'm finding that trying to take photos whilst machining takes time and is quite disruptive, sometimes throws you off course. Then you've got to resize them, up load them and write up an article - this takes a lot of time and there are other distractions when you get onto the computer as well. So I think I'll be using some of that time to actually make stuff in future!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on March 04, 2010, 03:32:29 AM
It's going well, Nick.
I can't remember which forum I'm watching you on, from one day to the next.  Some here, some the other place.
Anyway, still watching your build!

: )

Dean

Yeah.... I`m watching in stereo too! ::)

It`s all looking good Nick. Well done...  :thumbup:

David D

Me to

Nice work Nick  :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 04, 2010, 03:43:21 AM
I'm finding that trying to take photos whilst machining takes time and is quite disruptive, sometimes throws you off course. Then you've got to resize them, up load them and write up an article - this takes a lot of time and there are other distractions when you get onto the computer as well. So I think I'll be using some of that time to actually make stuff in future!

Nick

This, to me is all part & parcel of the hobby...... Retired so, I guess I`ve got more time than you Nick! (http://www.gashing.com/smile/indifferent/indifferent0007.gif) (http://www.squidoo.com/scuba-diving-guide)



When I manage to shake myself free from the winter doldrums......  (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0010.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-sad-smileys.php)

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: spuddevans on March 04, 2010, 06:15:57 AM
Looking good there Nick  :thumbup: :thumbup: Good thinking on using the hex as an indexing aid, and I see that you have got the Mk2 version of my depth stop, the horizontal one :lol:

It's true that it does interrupt the machining process to take pics, I sometimes get a little carried away and forget to document the different stages of a build. But what I do find good about stopping to take pics, it does help you to just take a regular step back which can help to get a clear perspective of where you are going ( or in my case, where I am going wrong :lol: )

But on the other hand, if you are working on something that has a lot of intricate steps that takes full concentration, maybe it is better to be uninterrupted.

Anyway, back on topic, glad to see your good progress on this.


Tim
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Darren on March 04, 2010, 06:20:10 AM
 Nice indexing Nick ... faster than an indexing table no doubt.   :ddb:

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Darren on March 04, 2010, 06:21:29 AM




When I manage to shake myself free from the winter doldrums......  (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0010.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-sad-smileys.php)

David D

You're not alone there David, I feel the season is just before us .....  :)
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 04, 2010, 07:19:48 AM
Thanks guys, glad it's not just me!  :lol:

I really need to make a depth stop, I had no idea how useful they'd be, but the Tim Mk 2 works just fine for now so I think it may get deployed more in the future!

You might be right about the taking the step back being good Tim. This project is taking me ages, but (touch wood) I haven't made a costly mistake yet (shouldn't have said that  :lol:  :doh:), it's just frustrating that the box of bits looks nothing like an engine yet, let alone two!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: AdeV on March 04, 2010, 07:55:37 AM
Lots of good work on this one Nick, I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.... I certainly don't feel ready to tackle an engine yet (at least, not a whole one!  :lol:)

Just going back over a few posts to your parting off troubles - I did something very similar with a piece of tube (3" dia, maybe 1/16" wall thickness), get a few thou into the cut then "KLUNK". I'm fairly sure I've mortally wounded my 3-jaw chuck, it's quite stiff in several places now.... but the 4-jaw is easier to fix the run-out, I'm finding, so I'll just stick with that one I think.

I find I take most of my photos between operations, rather than during (the occasional under-power shot being the exception). I never really thought about how much time it was taking, or whether it was distracting; I know most readers here are voracious photo consumers (myself included), so partially I aim to please on that score; but also I find them useful for me too, so I can go back & review what I've already done.

The writeup is another kettle of fish. Each of the longer BMW Sump write-ups takes me about an hour to do, all told. I may need to reduce that a bit, but TBH I find the writing about it almost as much fun as the actual doing (more so, if I'm not comfortable with the doing).

Anyway, enough thread hi-jacking. Just to say I'm loving your work, and hope you find the time to keep the excellent and thorough documentary going. They're really useful to newbies like me - even, no, especially the "warts and all" photos. :thumbup:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: spuddevans on March 04, 2010, 09:04:24 AM
This project is taking me ages,

Dont lose heart, this is more about the journey than the destination. If all we were interested in was just the end result we'd just go out and buy the completed model. But by taking however long as the project needs, and our own personal circumstances allow, we get the satisfaction from beating poor defensless bits of metal crafting and sculpting raw stock into working parts of a project.

So what's the rush, you know you are just going to start on another project as soon as you finish this one, so just enjoy the journey with the rest of us :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on March 04, 2010, 09:37:43 AM
Hi Nick,  it's good to see you posting, I take it to mean you've got past the bug you were under the weather with.  For myself, reading other's posts is good when I'm doing something on my own project which involves lots of repetition, such as making cylinder blanks for a radial engine.  I haven't stopped working on it, but serial pictures of the ten or eleven cylinders being machined as I get opportunity between jobs would be boring to look at, so I took a couple of pictures in the beginning, and will take a picture of all of the little soldiers standing in a row, when they're lapped out and ready for fitting pistons.  In the mean time, I have got off land line internet, got on satallite internet, and actually viewed someone's engine running, seeing a u-tube video for my first time ever.
     I am almost done with the many cylinders, and in the mean time, I'm enjoying watching this thread, as I intend for the "poppin" to be my next project, and want it to go perfect, smooth, and without a bump first time out.  I don't suppose that's asking too much in one sitting is it?  mad jack :headbang:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Rob.Wilson on March 04, 2010, 04:24:21 PM
Lookin good Nick  :clap:
Great read and photo build , keep it coming.

Cheers Rob  :beer:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 05, 2010, 03:35:25 AM
Thanks again for the support guys.

Madjack, I admire your patience and skill building your engine.

The warm bed and dvd was again too tempting last night but I intend to make the most of the weekend. I finish at midday on fridays so shouldn't be as tired in the evening.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 07, 2010, 05:31:51 PM
A little more progress - not as much as I would of liked, but a little.

I got the crankshafts just about done.

I thought I'd be clever and try making a 'D' bit out of a bit of the silver steel that would become the crankshaft - that way I could accurately size the holes in the crank webs etc and flywheel bosses.

Here it is:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-10-04_0002.jpg)

Later found out that didn't work though, think I must have milled just too much off as the D part went into the hole I had drilled too easily. So I used a number drill instead.

Milling a square end on the bar:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-26-34_0003.jpg)

Milling down to correct thickness:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0623-16-53_0005.jpg)

Setup for milling webs to length - this didn't work so had to do 1 at a time and mill across the vice at same height setting in end:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-43-30_0004.jpg)

Setup for drilling holes:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0623-34-20_0006.jpg)

Pair of cranks with loctite curing before I cut out centre section of main shaft:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0722-16-28_0007.jpg)



Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Dean W on March 08, 2010, 12:09:14 AM
Those cranks are looking really good, Nick.
 
Suit yourself about the write up length, and number of pics.  We all like to see and read what each other is doing, but if it's getting in the way of the guy doing the work, well, you don't want it to turn into a chore.
I take a lot of pics hoping to share, but to tell the truth, I would do it anyway, even if no one else was looking.  For me, pics are a good reference, especially if I've forgotten how I did some tricky setup in the past.

Probably best to just keep our projects enjoyable in what ever manner works for us.

Thanks again for all your pictures and narrative.

Dean
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 08, 2010, 04:42:41 AM
Thanks Dean,

I didn't really have much to report on these to be honest, it was simple milling and drilling with the exception of some of my work holding methods being dodgy and not working.

I agree, the forum is brilliant and everything is good reference material to go into a large database - i've found peoples posts from years ago useful. Like you say, it can't turn into a chore though - then it's not worth doing. If I do find anything useful I come across like the hex indexing thing I will write a bit more about it. I tend to try to keep things as simple as possible to suit my limited skills!  :lol:

I don't think I'll be trying to make 2-offs of anything in future either, that has definitely made it less enjoyable for me! I think when I've finished this project I need a good clean up of the shop, a review of what I have and what tooling etc. I might like to help me in the future. I may be able to pick some stuff up at the Model Engineering show that's coming up in May in the UK.

I've still got quite a long list of projects which I intend to follow through - things I really want to make and have always wanted to, for example just to say yep, I've done that - I can make an internal combustion engine from scratch! These forums have definitely helped me in my quest, since I started looking / posting on these I've had the advice and support to help me make a working stirling engine and a working flame gulper which I may not have been able to do otherwise.

again, thanks for the support, interest and advice guys.

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 08, 2010, 04:44:26 AM
PS, I forgot to mention - I will try making a D bit again at some point, I just need to pay more attention to the amount milled off. I just touched on and used the quill dro but that obviously wasn't accurate enough and took too much off or something.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on March 08, 2010, 08:44:59 AM
This project is taking me ages,

Dont lose heart, this is more about the journey than the destination. If all we were interested in was just the end result we'd just go out and buy the completed model. But by taking however long as the project needs, and our own personal circumstances allow, we get the satisfaction from beating poor defensless bits of metal crafting and sculpting raw stock into working parts of a project.

So what's the rush, you know you are just going to start on another project as soon as you finish this one, so just enjoy the journey with the rest of us :thumbup:


Tim

very true!
my own poppin has been on hold for 2 months, its going to b another month before i get chance to carry on with it!
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 08, 2010, 10:35:29 AM
Jim, I know the feeling, it's frustrating. I was hoping to get this done by the end of March but I don't want to end up rushing and spoiling them though so will have to take my time I think. I keep jumping around to different parts to keep interest too. There doesn't seem to be any particular order you have to make things in for this engine which is good.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 09, 2010, 06:24:29 PM
Started on the frames tonight, or standard as the designer calls it. I bought a length of 1" x 2" aluminium for this. The idea is supposed to be to machine the profile on the end of the bar sticking out of the vice, but my vice doesn't grip when at it's maximum opening - I remembered having problems with my cylinder for the last flame gulper.

So I had to flycut the material down a bit first:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0921-16-20_0001.jpg)
 First time I’d really flycut anything and it went well, or at least I thought it had but when I measured it, the bar was about 20 thou different end to end. The milling machine is cutting on a taper  – which means either the vice is not made properly, or the milling machine is not made properly – I’m guessing the milling machine. When I got my machine 2 of us bought the same one to get a discount, I know the other guy had a problem with his table being tapered. Will have to check mine now.

I could now remove the jaws from the vice to get a bit better grip (faulty vice) and grip to mill end square:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0921-56-31_0002.jpg)

Next I milled the bit off the end leaving a radius, this took a while, I was taking cuts of around 3/32 – 1/8”:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0922-18-11_0003.jpg)

I then decided to mark the thing up as it was a pain trying to use the graduated dials – and I know they are not that accurate, really need some sort of DRO setup:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0922-49-16_0004.jpg)

I then started milling the other section out to leave the 2 rads, but this is as far as I got:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0923-19-48_0006.jpg)

When I went to mill along, the metal moved in the vice again – no damage done but just no grip.
Whipped the end plate off the vice and found this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0923-18-27_0005.jpg)

The casting has cracked at some point leaving only half a nut for the screw to screw into – hence at wide openings if you try to get a decent tightness, there is enough play in the bearing to let the screw ride up on the threads and jump out of mesh. Don’t think this will be particularly easy to fix but will have to have a look. I don’t think it’s something that’s just happened as the broken bit is nowhere to be seen. Probably always been like this, I’ve just been getting away with it for small openings as the nut is engaged closer to the bearing, hence there isn’t enough play to let it ride up and jump out of mesh with the screw.

So probably on the look out for a new vice now as not too hopeful of being able to repair this one – shame as it is, or at least was a good vice – Elliot.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on March 10, 2010, 02:32:57 AM
Nice work Nick

You could repair the vice by completely drilling out the damaged thread and fitting a screwed bush, my home made vice is made this way with a brass bush, I'll post you a pic later.

The taper you're getting could be down to the vice as well, as you tighten up the moving jaw could be flexing up.

Try running a clock down the table then grip a bar you know is parallel in the vice and run a clock down that as well.

Hope this helps

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on March 10, 2010, 02:37:48 AM
thats bad, but, it could have been worse!

another project to fix the vice!
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 10, 2010, 05:28:19 AM
Thanks Stew, I will try clocking table and vice. You're right it might be pushing up as when I rest something on parallels and tighten up the parallel sometimes becomes looser - exactly what you said.

I don't know how I would attach the bush at the moment, I may have to mill a flat and make a square brass block with thread in it that bolts down to the vice? Will have to get it properly to bits to see.

That's the only problem Jim  - I don't want to be spending time repairing things but if it saves £60 and a good vice it might have to be done. That £60 could go towards a rotary table or QCTP!

Will strip down vice tonight so I can see what it's like then decide whether or not to attempt a repair!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on March 10, 2010, 05:50:17 AM
Her we go Nick my vice pics showing the brass nut

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3426.jpg)

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3427.jpg)

The end nearest the moving jaw has a flange on it to take the thrust.

Your next problem is the thread size if its not a standard size you can get a tap for you'll have to screw cut it.

Hope this helps

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on March 10, 2010, 12:22:15 PM
A little more progress - not as much as I would of liked, but a little.

I got the crankshafts just about done.

I thought I'd be clever and try making a 'D' bit out of a bit of the silver steel that would become the crankshaft - that way I could accurately size the holes in the crank webs etc and flywheel bosses.

Here it is:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-10-04_0002.jpg)

Later found out that didn't work though, think I must have milled just too much off as the D part went into the hole I had drilled too easily. So I used a number drill instead.

Milling a square end on the bar:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-26-34_0003.jpg)

Milling down to correct thickness:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0623-16-53_0005.jpg)

Setup for milling webs to length - this didn't work so had to do 1 at a time and mill across the vice at same height setting in end:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0622-43-30_0004.jpg)

Setup for drilling holes:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0623-34-20_0006.jpg)

Pair of cranks with loctite curing before I cut out centre section of main shaft:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2010-03-0722-16-28_0007.jpg)




Hi Nick, just a thought, if you want to mill your multiple pieces at one time, and have it work out, try putting a piece of paper between the movable jaw and the pieces, and then set them up square.  The paper will compress, and equalize the pressure on the four bars, and they will not move.  Even rather rough bars can be machined at the same time if you use a heavy brown paper rather than light notebook paper, as I would with pieces all cut out of one bar that is fairly smooth in finish.  For what its worth, mad jack :beer:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 10, 2010, 01:37:07 PM
Stew,

Thanks for that - I think I will have to screw cut as I think it's a square ish thread. I was going to investigate further tonight but the wife has just informed me it's stay in, film night tonight!  :doh: think that was my idea so I can't disagree!

Madjack, thanks for that tip - i've tried to mill like that on a couple of occasions now without success. Hopefully the little paper trick should work - it sounds logical.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on March 11, 2010, 12:04:35 PM
PS, I forgot to mention - I will try making a D bit again at some point, I just need to pay more attention to the amount milled off. I just touched on and used the quill dro but that obviously wasn't accurate enough and took too much off or something.

Nick
Hi Nick, with regard to D bits, they are best made just as you describe, touching off and then using the down feed read out, however stop short of half and leave at least four or five thousandths for hand finishing, on a stone and lapping, and you can mic it out as you are doing the final lap, hopefully on a diamond lap.  I've found a proper D bit gives a more accurate hole size than even a comercial reamer, unless you are absolutely perfect in your handling of the comercial reamer.  No matter where it is, a single cutting edge always is more accurate than multiple cutting edges, it's just a matter of means of handling.  For what it's worth, mad jack :headbang:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 12, 2010, 04:34:12 AM
Will have to try that again madjack, thanks.


Well I started an attempt to repair the vice last night - haven't uploaded the pics yet but I may have bitten off more than I can chew! It's a simple component to repair it, but the thread itself will be the stumbling block.

From what I can tell, it's an 8 TPI acme thread - well it's certainly sort of square bottomed with slightly tapered sides - I guess all I can do is measure the major and minor, pitch and grind a tool to fit the profile - suck it and see.

I could have chosen a better material - the only lump in my scrap box that looked about the right size was a lump I hacked off the back end of a massive old cutting tool. It hacksawed and seems to machine ok but you can sort of tell it's quite hard. Will have to do the thread in many passes I think. I swore I would only have 1 attempt at a repair but it's so simple in theory that I might have another go if the first doesn't work! I've got that cast round gunmetal that may be a more suitable material - easier to work with although the wrong shape to start with.

Anyway, all will become clear when I post the pics.  :worthless: I'm not sure what it originally looked like as that half nut bit does have a bit chipped off it, but it also has a machined surface and what looks like 2 snapped off pins or screws. I wonder what was on top - whatever it was is missing. It's a good vice though so worth at least trying to save - and save £65 at same time.

Nick

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: DMIOM on March 12, 2010, 04:52:51 AM
........I've got that cast round gunmetal that may be a more suitable material - easier to work with although the wrong shape to start with. ......

Since you're already into :proj: diversification mode, why-not re-cast it into the right shape?
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 12, 2010, 05:07:08 AM
Sounds a long way round, haven't got any casting gear just need to mill some flats on it.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: DMIOM on March 12, 2010, 06:55:36 AM
sorry for going off-topic - was meant to be a joke  :wave:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on March 13, 2010, 10:04:00 AM
By the way Nick, that piece of gun metal is probably your best bet for a good, solid vise nut.  It will bear a lot of pressure for years and wear slowly, yet it cuts pretty easily, it's just a matter of setting up a good boring bar and getting a cutter bit good and square with the bored hole.  Vises are expensive, and only get scrapped if there simply is no way to save them.  By the same token, an old shaper or planer vise at the right price needing rebuilding is better than a brand new vise made in some foreign land which uses pictograms, almost always!!  That gun metal should silver solder with hard solder very well, and strong, if you need to put ears on it, of something to attach it to the vise body, that or brazing will work well.  Good luck with the fix, hope to see it working again.  mad jack :headbang:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on March 13, 2010, 10:11:58 AM
Nick

Cant you just replace the screw with a rasping big set screw M12 ish the nut will be easy then.

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 13, 2010, 05:01:22 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. Stew, yes I did think of remaking the screw as well to make the nut easier! M12 is about the largest tap and die I have I think but that is still quite a bit smaller than the 5/8" thread it is at the moment. Would probably sill be plenty strong enough though I would think.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: andyf on March 19, 2010, 02:28:59 PM
Nick, this place sells 5/8" x 10TPI Acme flanged nuts. No prices on their website, though!

Andy
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 19, 2010, 02:32:51 PM
Andy,  :doh: you missed the link out!  :lol: This vice problem has stopped me in my tracks a bit but I don't want to chuck it out for the sake of a tap or a nut or whatever, it's too good.

I've been pretty slack lately too, just can't be bothered to get in the garage to tell you the truth, but I will soon.

nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on March 19, 2010, 03:02:48 PM

I've been pretty slack lately too, just can't be bothered to get in the garage to tell you the truth, but I will soon.

nick

normal service will be resummed at my workshop next weekend!!!
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: andyf on March 19, 2010, 05:24:17 PM
 :doh: :doh:
 http://www.kingston-engineering.co.uk/exstock.htm
Click on >>> Datasheet

Andy
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 20, 2010, 06:20:55 PM
Thanks Andy, could be another option if I can't do it and they would supply just 1.

Looking forward to seeing you finishing yours off Jim.  :thumbup:

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 24, 2010, 07:38:00 AM
Well, made a little progress last night, thanks to all the advice I should be able to have a better stab at screw cutting soon.

I made myself a little tool holder 3/8" diameter from some hard octaganol steel that used to be a chisel I think. It's very stiff, was hardly flexing at all with a 0.020" cut 2" from the chuck. Should be good for boring although I guess there are other factors like getting any resonance through it - will just have to try it before I can comment on that though. Only stupid thing I did though, when I drilled the cross hole I forgot to drill it parallel to a flat  :doh:  :doh:  :doh: what a numpty, I'll have to mill new flats on the gripping end now!

My plan is to use 3/16" silver steel which I can turn a taper on to get the angles accurate, face to length then mill down to half section - much the same way as a D bit. The round section should give me appropriate clearances by default apart from front and top rake which I can grind on then harden it.

The tool bit will be secured with a 5mm cap screw from the end. Will post some pics up at weekend and any trial cuts I make. I may have to change the material for my nut to something softer though as I said before.

This will also do as a little boring bar as I've needed one for a while.

So not much progress but a little. If I can't sort the vice I may be able to get the tool room at work to help out! Then back to the engine.

Nick


Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on March 24, 2010, 09:05:42 AM
Hi Nick,  if you run into chatter problems with your boring the thread, you can take your top slide, turn it parallel to the ways, and you can machine a shallow cut, then with the next cut, move the cutter ahead a bit, say ten or twenty thousandths, and take a cut at the same depth, then move the top slide back for the next cut, just making sure you stop doing this as you approach the total width of the inside thread.  This lets the cutting tool cut on two sides at a time only, and can relieve pressure, and stop chatter.  It works well with a large acme or square thread as long as you keep good track of where the cutter is relative to the cut.  Old large allen wrenches make good cutters for such jobs, with the angle head already there, and good tool steel.  Sometimes you need to case harden the very tip, if you're cutting in hard steel or the like, but otherwise, they are hard enough for most jobs.  Looking forward to seeing you back to your vices, as all men ought to be :beer:Mad Jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on March 24, 2010, 11:09:24 AM
Thanks madjack, I came across the method you described sounds good. Good idea with the allen keys with the crank already there, never thought of that!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 07, 2011, 02:55:48 PM
Well, it's been almost a year but I'm finally going to get back onto this project tonight! Lets see if I can get these working, if they do, my Dad will get one for his Birthday in March instead of ebay getting it to make up for the non-working Tiny Stirling he got for Christmas!

Right better get out there armed with the camera, I think when they get looking more like engines I'll become more motivated!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 07, 2011, 05:46:25 PM
I felt sure this morning that I was going to go into the workshop tonight but after a week at work I was considering having a rest and going in tomorrow - glad I forced myself to get in there. Only made a little bit of progress but better than nothing.

When I left this project I was milling the frame which is from solid alloy bar and my vice broke. A while back when I started the 7 1/4" loco I managed to do a bodge repair to the vice which seems to be holding up (touch wood). I then got about 1/2 way through the loco build and got bored, then got  :proj: and decided to make a tiny stirling - that didn't work, so back onto the two poppin flame lickers I started almost a year ago. 2010 proved not to be a very productive year in the workshop, lets hope 2011 can be!

The frame went back into the vice to mill out the middle leaving the radii, roughed it out first:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0721-42-22_0001.jpg)

Other side and getting through it now, I wasn't really enjoying this and contemplated handsawing most of it out - but that was taking even longer with an abrafile!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0721-59-10_0002.jpg)

Taking the finishing cuts and climb milled with no extra cut on which gave a decent finish:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0722-21-02_0003.jpg)

That's the profile milled out and de-burred:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0722-29-16_0004.jpg)

Now I had to flip it in the vice so it was upright and mill to size before milling the slot for the crankshaft. I had a bit to cut off the top of the bearing supports and a bit off the over all thing so marked that out.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0722-53-07_0006.jpg)

I hacksawed a bit off the top of the bearing supports to save me milling loads off.  :doh: Nearly hacksawed on the wrong line at first, the lower one is for the bearing bore - that could have been a disaster!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0722-58-13_0005.jpg)

Back into the milling machine but upright as I said to mill to height:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0723-05-11_0007.jpg)

This is about where I left it tonight as am a bit tired, I've de-burred it and have it clear in my head what to do next thanks to Jim's build notes. I need to drill and tap the holes for the bearing pinch bolts, mill the slot for the crankshaft. Saw off parent stock, invert in vice and finish the cylinder face. Bore cylinder face and transfer bolt pattern from cylinder cover. Flip in vice and mill slots in bearing supports. Finally flip upside down to drill and tap some mounting holes.

I don't think I'm going to bother with the thin metal base, don't see the point really, it can go straight onto the wood.

Thus far I've made 2 of each component but now I'm deliberating whether to drop onto one engine and progress more quickly to keep me interested. Or just battle on and make another frame. hmm ....

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on January 08, 2011, 01:31:30 AM
looking forward to the next instalment
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 08, 2011, 06:53:22 PM
Cheers Jim, thanks again for those bearings by the way.

Got a bit more done tonight. Wow, this frame is possibly the most complicated component I've made, it's not been difficult (so far -  :lol: tempting fate here) but a lot of work in it and still not finished.

First job was to drill holes for pinch bolts, these are - can't remember size but my equivalent is 10ba, so drilled down with No 54 then opened top out for clearance to No 50. Haven't tapped yet, will do that by hand later:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0821-56-41_0001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0822-00-34_0002.jpg)

Then start milling away the middle to leave the 2 uprights. Here I just got it some where near the right width then took some small finishing cuts after:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0822-25-06_0003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0822-47-16_0005.jpg)

Finished milling - took a while, actually I had a cup of tea in between as I thought I was going to get impatient and mess it up! Also thought I'd leave the machine to cool a bit.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0823-31-31_0006.jpg)

Back in the mill on its side to drill holes for bearings, I centre drilled, drilled through 1, then picked a sturdy ish drill to go through to the other using first as a guide. Then opened up.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0823-50-03_0004.jpg)

That's it drilled to final size - tried the bearings they are a sliding fit so should be perfect for screw just to pinch. Marked out position of valve pivot.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0823-59-51_0007.jpg)

While it was on its side I drilled the hole for the valve pivot.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0900-06-57_0008.jpg)

That is about as far as I got, just de-burred it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-0900-15-50_0009.jpg)

Still a bit of work here!


Don't know, maybe it sounds more than it is but I'd say at least another night on it. I need to think of how I can bore it to 11/16" Don't think I've got a drill that big, have a 5/8" end mill. Might have a look at drawings to see if it's necessary to go the same size as the cylinder bore.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 08, 2011, 11:11:42 PM
Hi Nick, if you don't have a boring head, you can use a straight boring bar in a collet with a HS cutter sticking out, ground to appropriate angles, and adjust the tool out with a dial indicator or even just a stop and feeler gauge to get that bore.  That frame is looking good, ought to get the second one out while you're feeling good about the first one looking so nice :poke: glad to see you back on the "poppin", I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing it running, in tandem I hope. mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 09, 2011, 04:26:47 AM
Madjack,

Thanks for the tip - I honestly don't know why I didn't think of that. I was thinking of all sorts of stuff, making a custom boring bar with an offset drilled with packing (as I now know how to do that!) I didn't see the wood for the trees! I think I have a boring bar like that, just depends whether it's small enough, if not, I could use the one I made to fix the vice by chopping it off probably.

Not sure about making the 2nd frame, it's taking ages! I know you're right though, if I drop onto 1 I'll end up with 1 engine and a nice box of bits that'll never get a frame to go with!

Might take your advice then!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: arnoldb on January 09, 2011, 04:02:40 PM
Nick, good going  :clap:

And very good close-up photos by the way; I struggled to comprehend the size you're working at, until you showed the drill for the 10BA - tapping drill size for me is 1.4mm and clearance 1.8mm, so that gave a bit of scale.  You commented in my thread about machining marks - well, you are on the exact same level, or even better, with me from what I can see - nothing a bit of effort with files and emery won't clean up.
One thing I did notice is your drilled holes - a smooth surface with a kind of "screw-thread" marking across it.  That always puzzled me on my own work, until I realised I got that when I drilled through, and "quickly" removed the drill from the job.  Try a test next time; when you bring the drill bit back out of the hole, do it as slowly as you fed it in ;) - but be prepared for a slightly over-sized hole.

Build that second base as well  :thumbup: - I'm sure you won't be sorry.

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 09, 2011, 04:25:01 PM
Hi Arnold, thanks for the kind words and advice. I'll try that with the drill, I have a feeling you're right, I probably withdraw the drill too quickly. I should have mentioned something about scale, keep forgetting to include the coins in the pics. I was quite surprised when I realised I'd need to tap the pinch bolts 10ba. Never threaded anything this small before and it's deep in aluminium so I'll have to be careful. I got some ba bolts for Xmas but 8 was the smallest, never thought I'd need 10. I've found a couple of counter sunk head screws which will do if they are 10ba. So some bits are quite small on this engine but the bore is actually quite big at 11/16". No progress tonight but some good news for me ... I've got 1 of the broken cars back. I found a similar forum to this for Renault Clio Sports and a local enthusiast took the car away, took my engine out and put his in for an unbelievable price! He's doing a conversion on his. Chuffed to bits!
Back onto this tomorrow, think I will do another frame and I've reconsidered about the base plate that goes under them, got an idea in mind for those.
Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 09, 2011, 06:10:05 PM
Nick

I think I've some 10ba you can have bought them because they were so small I though they were cute.
  :D

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 10, 2011, 07:25:30 AM
Quote
I think I've some 10ba you can have bought them because they were so small I though they were cute.

Haha! Thanks Stew that's be great - only need 4, don't think I'll be using that size any more. Can't remember if there are any on Mabel that small?!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 10, 2011, 09:00:14 AM
Hi Nick, by the by, most of my small screws are salvage from old tape decks, CD players, hard drives and other parts from computers, and they are metric, mostly, but I get some salvage which is American thread on occasion.  I do buy when I have to, and usually by the box, as it's far cheaper that way, and there's always another small project.  With regard to your drills, I tend to use the mill brake, and stop the spindle to pull out tiny drilled holes, and avoid that odd thread look, but generally only with holes I need dead on size and don't have a reamer for.  I try to use either fillister head screws or allen screws as much as possible, as they put the pressure as straight down as possible, with counter sunk heads finding center off the counter sink, and occasionally the head will pull the piece it is in, off kilter because the counter sink is put in separate from the hole, and can pull to the side if allowed.
  It's good to see this set of engines coming together, I hope you've got a good bore and good pistons, so they start up fairly easily, and run well.  It seems that is the primary issue with the "poppin", as the valve gear seems pretty clear from interfering with the running, unlike the Blazer and some others.  It really seems to be very effective and I need to build one sooner or later.  Too many around to avoid that responsibility it seems.  Nice pictures of the frame, hope to see some of the boring for the cylinder soon.  :poke: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 10, 2011, 09:41:44 AM
Cheers Madjack. I do have a set of metric taps and dies now so I can keep my options more open in future rather than stick down the ba route. I wasn't concerned about the rough finish on that particular hole as it will help grip the bearings. Might need a couple of marks putting in anyway to aid grip but will take yours and arnolds advice in future. I did notice it still taking material off the top hole as i was cutting / withdrawing from the bottom one so the top is probably marginally larger. I didn't have a 5/16 or 8mm reamer though.

Good point about counter sunk screws, I was only going to use those as I found a couple but I forgot to countersink anyway so i'll be better off with hex heads. I think they look more authentic on these old type engines.

I used lessons learnt on my Ridders flame licker and reamed the bores with plenty of oil at a slow speed so I'm fairly confident the bore is good enough. On that I just turned the piston and left it straight from the lathe (it gives a very good finish on a slow speed and feed for cast iron) to retain parallelism. Microscopic grooves are probably good at retaining oil too. However, I might try graphite pistons with the stuff that Ade kindly donated for my tiny stirling. I know somebody on HMEM used a graphite one to good effect.

Ha, that's what I thought - I had just finished my Ridders flame licker and thought those would be out of my system, but I was intrigued too much to attempt this more conventional type to compare the performance of the two!

I know I've just restarted this thread so it may have been forgotten where I was up to - check back at older posts for cylinders and other bits, I'd nearly forgotten myself!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 10, 2011, 07:35:11 PM
Been quite a long night and still a bit to go as this will take a while to write up!

Continuing with the frame for poppin..

First job was to saw the job from the parent stock.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1021-19-47_0001.jpg)

10 minutes with the hacksaw - I did such a good job I thought I'd just touch it up with a file instead of milling.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1021-29-45_0002.jpg)

Just checking you're awake... I thought I'd try to get it  a bit flatter than that so put it in the milling machine and decided to flycut it rather than take loads of passes with a small cutter. Luckily the flycutter was still set up from when I skimmed the block originally.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1021-38-53_0003.jpg)

Then it came back out to get marked up for all the holes. (large one for conrod to pass through, cylinder bolting holes and hole for valve rod) I decided that as the width of the standard was 1" and the cyl. cover 1" it was fairly easy for me to just position the cover and mark the holes through.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-23-23_0006.jpg)

Spotting the holes.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-30-35_0007.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-35-19_0008.jpg)

Then starting to open the large one up:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-43-10_0009.jpg)

Drills getting bigger and scarier!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-47-20_0010.jpg)

I decided to finish with the closes thing I had to 11/16", a 5/8" slot drill.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-51-49_0011.jpg)

This worked really well and gave a good finish.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-53-10_0012.jpg)

I was going to stop there as I would guess 5/8" would be big enough for the con rod not to foul. But then I thought, no, I better stick to the drawing as couldn't be bothered calculating stuff! So I found an old boring bar:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1022-56-26_0013.jpg)

it happened to already have a tool in it. I just had to grind a bit away from the wrong end so it didn't interfere with me trying to measure it to get 11/16". I got as near as damn it to what would give 11/16", put it in the collet chuck and started boring!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1023-13-27_0014.jpg)

At this point I was pretty scared as it appeared to be wobbling about like a good 'un! No idea why it would do that but I think it was to do with the shape of the tool - it was a sort of v shape but with hindsight I think I should have had a virtually straight leading edge just with some rake angle and a slight clearance. The up shot of this was that it gave a rubbish finish. I think it was partly my haste using the tool that was already there and wanting to stop the operation as I thought I was going to ruin my component.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1023-29-02_0015.jpg)

I quit with this while I was ahead (well, while nothing was broken!) with the hole at this point. I'll need to practice this boring lark on some scrap and might re-visit it if I get good results I think, or at least I'll get it right for the next frame.

Next, another scary operation. Milling the slot through the bearing holes to enable the crank to pass through. I thought I'd try out my new slitting saw arbor and one of the saws I cunningly kept from my horizontal milling machine. The concentricity of the arbor or saw must be cr@p as you could visibly see the run out (about a mm or so!). I decided as it wasn't moving up or down it should still be ok and turned it by hand a few times with it touching the workpiece trying to get it into what I thought was the best position. I made sure I wasn't climb milling and that when I'd wound it all the way through it'd cut the slot in one pass.

As I neared the workpiece the tinging noise nearly made me have kittens, I thought it was just going to bend  the uprights but I thought with a decent speed (about 400 rpm?) and a slow feed it should be ok. I nearly made a massive booboo though. The slitting saw was 0.1" wide and the slot was to be 0.16". So I started off with the bottom edge 0.080" below the centreline of the bearing holes. Then I'd move it up 0.060 to do the second pass and widen the slot to desired width. If I'd have done that, it would probably have bent the top. Glad I remembered and started at the top first then widened at the bottom where it still had more structural integrity. Sorry, this is getting a bit waffley, anyway, it worked ...

I thought I'd tap the holes next. Another problem here, the 10ba tap is nowhere near long enough to go through the clearance hole and into the portion that should be threaded. It gave me 4 or 5 threads in there max before the shank started to foul - have no clue what to do here. I'll have to read the instructions to see if I've missed a trick.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1100-11-35_0018.jpg)

The last thing to do was to drill the 1/4" hole for the valve rod that meets the cross hole for the valve shaft:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1100-07-41_0017.jpg)

That went well. I cleaned the thing up a little and here is the finished standard or frame:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1100-28-12_0019.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1100-28-21_0020.jpg)

Actually it's not finished - I forgot to drill any mounting holes in the bottom but was too late to start, don't want to ruin anything due to being too tired!

I really don't want to make another one of these right now. I think I want a change of scenery so to speak so might crack on and make some other parts and come back to the 2nd frame!

Nick











Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 10, 2011, 07:39:09 PM
Oh, forgot to put this one in, a shot after flycutting:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1021-58-17_0004.jpg)

 and I couldn't resist this mock up, this was earlier on before I'd (nearly) finished the frame!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1021-59-36_0005.jpg)
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 11, 2011, 03:17:23 AM
Looking good Nick, I liked the way you bored the stand to take the cylinder.

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 11, 2011, 05:08:56 AM
Stew,

Thanks but I think I rushed into boring the stand too much. I should maybe have made a custom boring bar. That one was too long and the v type tool that was already in it was no good - I think the angle started pushing, bending the bar rather than cutting cleanly. I fed it with the drill feed too which was too fast, maybe I should have fed it down with the spindle just nipped. Maybe the tool wasn't quite sharp enough either. Whatever I did, didn't seem to work very well at all. I don't think I need a boring head for the amount of times I do this, although guess then I could quickly and accurately bore to a good finish.

Does anybody have any other tips for boring like I did?

Thanks

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 11, 2011, 09:59:23 AM
Hi Nick, you're looking good there, getting along well.  The boring bar issue is almost always about the cutting tool.  Boring is inherently about doing something you need with the worst possible conditions of tools in that you have the longest tool holder, supported on one end only, and you're working inside, so you need extra "front" clearance on the bottom end of the cutter, to clear the circumference sector between the cutting edge, and the heel of the tool.  If the tool has a "shear" cutting edge, from a fair top clearance angle, appropriate front clearance, and like you said, going at the work pretty close to square on, with a nice radius, minimum size, fine finish, and the bottom of the cutter radiused for the clearance you need, and of course, the cutting edge back relief such that the edge is cutting "on plane" with the centerline of the spindle, you can expect a good clean bore.  The usual bit that's missed is the heel of the cutter, with it dragging through the already cut part.  Making sure your cutter has a smaller radius from top, cutting edge, to bottom, trailing, than the hole being bored will ensure this doesn't happen, unless your cutting edge is above the "plane" of the spindle centerline.  I use a fly cutter holder, with a tool ground to meet all the angle requirements to fit in my boring head, for boring Harley engine cases larger for big bore cylinders, and have tool bits just for that specific job.  A through cut, such as you've taken, can use the same form of tool bit a between centers boring bar uses, with the same parameters, angles and nose radiuses adjusted for the metal being bored.  I hope this helps a bit.  With regard to cutting the slots for the crank, you can cut such a wide slot by cutting most of the way through and leaving fifty or sixty thousandths in the back of the cut, taking both cuts, to get your width, and then do the final cuts from top and then the bottom, so you have support to the end.  You can even cut the last out by hand, and even up the slots with a hand file.  :bugeye: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 11, 2011, 10:55:54 AM
Thanks madjack, I will follow this reply next time I bore something in the miller to get the tool correct.

I've just been looking at the poppin plans and it'd been so long since I did the cylinder I forgot, it's actually 5/8" bore! So I probably could have left the bore in the standard 5/8". I doubt the con rod comes within 1/32" of the bore in the standard so see no reason why it would need to be larger than 5/8".  :bang:

Just been compiling a list of what I need to do to complete an engine - it's bad enough for 1 engine, let alone two! I definitely want to finish both at some point though as if one goes to my Dad for his birthday in March, I want the other for my collection of engines. I think I have 7 nights work left so that means if I manage to get workshop time every night, one should be ready for next Tuesday - quoting timelines always puts the kibosh on things though!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: arnoldb on January 11, 2011, 11:28:27 AM
 :thumbup: Good progress Nick  :D

Before I built the boring head in my avatar, I had to do boring with bars similar to yours.  It takes a fine feed and not too great depth of cut; you can't hog it.  And a very sharp cutting tip helps as well, with suitable clearance on all sides.  It takes a bit of patience - and gets a bit ..erm.. boring  :palm:

 :beer:, Arnold
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 11, 2011, 06:34:11 PM
Ha, nice one Arnold  :lol:. Come to think of it, I had a 5/8" hole and I tried to take it out to 11/16" in one cut - that's 31 thou so quite a bit I guess, esp with the wrong, blunt tool and too much sticking out of chuck. Your boring head looks great by the way.

Didn't get much done tonight, was basically messing around but nevertheless did a few jobs that needed doing.

I cut the shaft away from middle of crank, drilled and tapped the holes in the base, tapped the holes in cylinder to mount and for cover, drilled and tapped the hole for the oiler, cut some bolts to length and assembled some bits.

Here are a couple of pics of the assembly. It's only now that I get a feeling for the size. I love the look of the engine but the more I look at it the more I realise it's not particularly well made. I just really hope it's going to work! Will just have to make sure I get all the critical bits right again.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1200-00-19_0001.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1200-00-43_0002.jpg)

Quiz night at the pub with mates tomorrow so there won't be any progress until thurs night now, hopefully i can crack on and get some bits made now some of those fiddley jobs are out of the way.

Nick

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 12, 2011, 08:46:32 AM
Hi Nick, I took another look and I don't see where it's "not well made", it all looks pretty well finished, square, smooth where it's supposed to be, all in all, I think it looks well made, at least from here.  With regard to that kind of boring, I usually set up the tool bit loose in the bar, put the bar down till the bit's inside the bore, push it with a scribe or something to touch off, then withdraw the bar, and nudge the bit to put on just enough to be sure I'm getting a cut.  Then, after the cut's finished, I know where I am exactly by measuring, and can divvy up the remainder in however many cuts I think are needed.
    All in all, I think the engine is looking right nice, and should turn out to be a good runner, once you've got er finished.  Just looking at the photos of your frame make me want to dive in and build a poppin, you really did a nice job on it, and the finish looks good, and no one's looking at the bore of the frame, and if they do, you can always go back and touch it up, it's just looks, not functionally important.  Just sitting somewhere, the poppin's a good looking engine all in its self. :beer: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: AdeV on January 12, 2011, 10:12:38 AM
I have to agree with Jack - I think it looks great! And some of the solutions you've found to cutting various parts of that base were quite inspired.

I can't wait to see the next installment, forget drinking & mates, get your ar*e back in that workshop!  :poke:  :D

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on January 12, 2011, 11:39:39 AM
really looking good now!

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 12, 2011, 01:11:50 PM
I read "not particularly well made", earlier on. When no one else had posted.

I had to wait to see if anyone else could see what I couldn't.....  :scratch:

They can't! There's nowt wrong wi' that, Nick!  :thumbup:

Carry on. Yer doing just fine!  :D

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 12, 2011, 06:16:08 PM
Thanks for the encouragement guys, it's just I thought I was doing a really good job on it before I came back to it but when I've come to assemble the bits I've made I realise they aren't as good as I thought! I hope I can get it working and I'll be happy but I still have a long way to go and a lot to learn.

I must admit the engine is a nice design and that frame is an interesting machining job - not too difficult just quite time consuming but it makes a better job of it being out of the solid rather than 3 or 4 seperate bits.

 :lol: Ade, funnily enough I've made quite a radical new years resolution - because I don't get out much these days I found it increasingly more difficult to have afew pints without waking up with a bad head, so I decided I'd stop drinking! Not had an alcoholic drink since 30th December and know I'll feel better for it in the morning. Still going to pub just to get out and do something but there are a couple of us ordering orange squash much to the barmaids amusement! My mate just had too much over christmas I think - I am just thinking what's the point in having a couple of pints if it makes me feel like that - it doesn't really do a lot for me! So I could have safely gone into the garage tonight but was a bit too late!

Nick




Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 13, 2011, 06:33:59 PM
Got done what I planned tonight. Made the flywheel bosses, nuts and washer. Started off really slowly, didn't have material to hand, had to find right sized drills, swapping tools around etc! I did start taking pics of machining operations but then realised they were all straight forward, nothing people haven't seen 1 million times before so stopped to get on with it.

Here are the finished components:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1323-55-27_0001.jpg)

and assembled onto the engine:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1400-08-14_0002.jpg)

The crank is very free running, those two flywheels combined are actually quite heavy. 1 of the flywheels is spot on but the other has a very slight wobble for some reason!  :doh: Nothing too bad though.

Still lots of parts to make yet, wish I'd never started making two of them! I think I've said before I won't make 2 of anything again!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 14, 2011, 10:10:50 AM
Hi Nick, you look like you're moving right along, and the work looks good.  The picture of those two flywheels on the shaft for a five eighths in bore is what inspired my own flywheel of rather large proportions, but having seen several "poppin's" which ran very well as such, I have confidence in them and my own.  While you lament having started two, I'm lamenting not having started five or six Duclos flame suckers, after seeing Arnold's success with a cast iron cylinder, and having them as presents.  It may be a bit of a pain now, but finishing two at a time will be welcomed at the end, particularly if you're like me and have to make two of most parts anyway, just to get one "just right".  You get those pistons right for those cylinders, and good vacuum on them, and you will be glad to have two good runners at the same time.  I have to turn around and start my little Duclos all the time to re-motivate me, when the one I'm working on isn't cooperating very much.  You're right close to getting things running, and when they do, you will be happy you perservered.  You're making me wish I'd jumped to the "poppin" rather than starting off with a random idea as I'm ready to run, but not, and now having to troubleshoot.  You'll be done before you know it  :poke: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 14, 2011, 12:11:07 PM
Jack, you're right, I think with a relatively short and small power stroke they need a decent flywheel. I think it's quite important to have the weight in the right place too as we have done, i.e. decent moment of inertia but keeping the mass down. My Jan Ridders flame licker has quite a large flywheel - an old casting I had lying around, and although it's a much less compact engine, the cylinder isn't that much bigger than poppin - only 19mm bore (think it's supposed to be 18 but I overshot) and remember a lot of the length in that cylinder is taken up by the internal valve.

With regards to doing the two at a time I thought it was going pretty well and it wasn't too tedious but when I've picked it back up, I can't think of anything worse than repeating things for some reason, even when it's fresh in my mind and the set up / material is there. It would make sense but I was not enjoying it!

I was pulling my hair out with the Jan Ridders version trouble shooting and it was only through people's help and advice on these forums that I got there in the end. I knew people had trouble with the internal valve design and was so intrigued by poppin seeing so many sucessful versions of that, it was then that I had to try it to see what the difference was. There are quite few parts to poppin, probably the most complex thing I've made so far.

Keep plugging logically away and am confident you'll get there with yours but I know what you mean, it is a frustrating time. Poppin will also be about the only thing I've followed somebody elses design entirely on (well almost entirely!) so I wanted to see if I was capable of doing that!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: arnoldb on January 14, 2011, 12:42:49 PM
 :thumbup: Looking more and more like an engine Nick - keep at it!

Regards, Arnold
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 14, 2011, 12:52:03 PM
As Arnold said Nick looking like a real engine  :headbang: thats what so nice about flame lickers they do look the part.

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 17, 2011, 09:27:22 AM
I decided I'd be a good husband and stay in with the wife on Friday night - actually I was knackered but she doesn't need to know that!  :lol:

Started making the valve rod. This was just a bit of 1/16" stainless rod with a thread on each end. The thread, unfortunately had to be 10ba (bit small for my liking). 1/16" is too small for my lathe chuck to grip so I had a cunning plan, or at least I thought I did... hold it in the pin chuck:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1516-04-59_0003.jpg)

but this didn't really get a good enough grip. The collet was just too big so it slipped. So put the drill chuck in the headstock:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1516-21-28_0004.jpg)

Worked this time. My new Soba 10ba die from the set I got for christmas didn't seem to be working very well though so used an old presto one and that worked!

Using 10ba also meant that I didn't have any nuts. I found one then had to drill another out that was even smaller!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1515-53-58_0001.jpg)

Tapped in vice as couldn't feel what was happening in lathe:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1515-57-16_0002.jpg)

The next thing to make was the valve rocker shaft. This was from 1/8" silver steel. First had to turn ends down for 8ba:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1516-51-28_0005.jpg)

Then cut the threads:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1516-54-54_0006.jpg)

Then had to think of a novel way to clamp in the vice level - this is the heath robinson way I came up with, rested on a parallel and used a bit of packing in the jaw to grip. Here I am centre drilling:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-05-35_0007.jpg)

Seemed to work reasonably well, drilled out to tapping size and started tapping:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-08-03_0008.jpg)

I was just thinking, this tapping lark in the milling machine is ok as long as use a low speed and oil and keep winding in and out... then ping!!!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-08-33_0009.jpg)

I don't really know what I was thinking, 10ba in silver steel under power? Really?! I started it off with the taper ok so I should have taken it out at that point to finish by hand but no, I had counted my chickens so to speak!

Luckily I managed to punch the tap out with a bit I ground off the end of the tapping drill. I thought I had a pic but can't find it. I had actually drilled it a size smaller to attempt to get a tighter fit so that won't of helped, but it helped save it. It had only tapped a couple of threads so I opened it up to the proper size and tapped again, I hasten to add in the vice this time!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-27-07_0011.jpg)

This was before de-burring:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-31-25_0012.jpg)

Assembled with rod and nuts:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-32-50_0014.jpg)

I then made the spring as was running out of time, that was nice and easy:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1517-44-45_0015.jpg)

There's the assembly with the spring:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1518-12-12_0016.jpg)

Forgot to mention that this was during the day on Saturday afternoon, I was allowed into the workshop for staying in the night before! The intention was to go back in later that night after watching a bit of silly sat night TV but I was too tired and only managed a bit. Did the valve shaft bushes.

Drilling the rod. Think it's phosphur bronze but not sure, it came off a set of old scientific scales I think. It's sort of coppery and seems soft to turn? Anyway, it's the same stuff I used for my bushes on the ridders flame gulper.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1522-34-20_0017.jpg)

Reaming 1/8" with my other christmas pressie:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1522-39-35_0018.jpg)

Turning down to size. I wanted a light press fit, if too heavy it would crush due to thin wall and my 1/8" dia would be no more!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1522-44-49_0020.jpg)

Finally parting off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1522-59-19_0021.jpg)

I thought the parting off was going badly as it kept leaving a pip (even though it was dead on centre) but luckily the pip just crumbled away and it was ok after a couple of twists by had with a countersink:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1523-03-27_0023.jpg)

Then I tried the shaft in it and it was too tight! Then I remembered what Bogs told me about hand reamers having a longer tapered section, but I had reamed it blind so put it back in the lathe and reamed right through:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1523-05-28_0024.jpg)

Another thing I noticed was that despite me being careful and using the graduated dial on top slide to make sure I parted off the right amount, it was coming out over size. I wasn't too concerned about this but when I started looking at the drawing, it was critical, the shoulder had to be 0.025" so that the shaft would protrude slightly at each end so I had to skim this down. Here is the finished bush:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1523-12-19_0025.jpg)

Once I'd done the same for the other one, I'd had enough and quit while I was ahead. I just pressed the bushes in with a dab of loctite.

On Sunday I was allowed in the workshop during the day again ... what's going on?  :scratch: !

So I set about making the cam(s). These are 1" diameter and 0.047" thick. I decided the best way would be to turn a bar to 1", drill, ream and part off. I had a little short length of cast iron I thought would be good as I know it's easy to part!

Facing off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-02-27_0026.jpg)

Turning to size:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-06-54_0027.jpg)

Centre drilling:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-14-37_0028.jpg)

opening up:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-17-49_0029.jpg)

by the way, what do you leave on there to ream? Some people say make the reamer work, some people say just a smidgin ... I drilled 7.5mm for the 5/15" reamer I think and it seemed about right?

Reaming:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-20-08_0030.jpg)

Then i set my parting tool up, looking from this angle I quickly realised you don't need to have much sticking out:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-24-05_0031.jpg)

Parting off, used the centre as I wasn't gripping on much so remembered the advice from last time:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-28-55_0032.jpg)

Here are the two blanks. One turned out 0.049" and the other 0.045" - oh well, think it'll do though!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1614-49-13_0034.jpg)

The radii on the bottom of the cam was 0.300" so I set about making 2 filing buttons of 0.600" diameter with a 5/16" hole through the same. I took photos but just realised the entire operation was exactly the same as the cams, just from steel and a bit thicker! The only thing new was that it was the first time I've sucessfully parted steel  :ddb:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1615-13-08_0040.jpg)

I should have mentioned that I luckily remembered about the arbor I'd made for the flywheels which was the right diameter to hold it. With a bit of foresight, the od of this could have been made the same thereby incorporating filing buttons, but I had made mine from hex bar to index for the flywheel holes.

Here are the blanks mounted on the arbor with filing buttons and marked:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1615-21-47_0042.jpg)

I thought, that looks wrong some how, and another look at the drawing confirmed that it was. The 110 degrees duration is shown in a funny way, so I interpreted what it meant and re-marked. You probably can't see it very well.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1615-25-51_0045.jpg)

I thought I had a couple more photos but I can't find them. Anyway, I just hacksawed most of it away with junior hacksaw and filed the rest. The filing buttons didn't really work as they were just steel and not hardened but were there as a visual guide I suppose! I fear I may have taken a bit too much off so not sure whether the valve will be open long enough. Will see.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1615-40-52_0033.jpg)

Sorry, it's a long post this ... need to update more frequently in future in bite sized chunks!

Next was the roller, pin and arm in that order.

The roller was from a bit of stainless steel:

Facing:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-04-07_0041.jpg)

Turning to size:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-08-22_0043.jpg)

Drilling:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-11-32_0044.jpg)

I decided I'd have to grind a drill flat to square out the counter bore for the pin as didn't have a slot drill or end mill small enough:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-17-18_0047.jpg)

Drilled with right sized drill first:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-20-17_0046.jpg)

Then flat drill before parting off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-30-00_0048.jpg)

I tried to be clever when parting to give it the 1/64" step which sort of worked but I did my calcs wrong and it ended up too long anyway. Hadn't read drawing properly and added 1/64" to overall length. To that had to come off. Needed to ream it through anyway though:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-42-11_0049.jpg)

Here are a couple of pics of the finished roller:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-44-41_0050.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1616-44-49_0051.jpg)

Parting the stainless was worse than the mild steel - tended to chatter a bit, prob had speed or feed wrong.

Onto the pin, simple turning job but had to be the right dimensions again.

Facing:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1621-41-26_0052.jpg)

Turning bearing surface:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1621-47-12_0053.jpg)

Turning pin:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1622-08-47_0054.jpg)

Parting:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1622-14-15_0056.jpg)

Finished:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1622-21-00_0057.jpg)

Assembled into roller:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1622-21-51_0060.jpg)

Now the arm, which would complete the whole valve assembly. I was going to use some 1/4" square bar, drill the holes and try to split it giving me 2 components but I decided that was destined to fail and I was making hard work of this. So I routed around and found some rusty steel sheet just the right thickness. Had a bit of straightening to do then cut a bit off.

Squared up in milling machine:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1622-45-52_0055.jpg)

Here it is:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-05-54_0058.jpg)

Marked it up:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-09-56_0059.jpg)

Cut off and squared it up again:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-15-35_0061.jpg)

Then had to re-mark it:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-31-16_0063.jpg)

Drilled holes:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-43-17_0064.jpg)

Then, by eye put at an angle in vice to mill angled sides. I didn't just do it willy nilly but thought I'd align the centre of the big hole and the bottom of little hole with the top of the vice jaw which would give the required offset.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1623-51-20_0065.jpg)

After a bit of filing, it worked pretty well:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-11-04_0066.jpg)

Then assembled the pin and roller onto it:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-21-17_0067.jpg)

The idea was to peen over the pin, but without a ball pein hammer or rivet snap I had to use a nail punch, which worked well enough. I was really impressed with the roller, it spins over almost like a ball race but a bit looser. Probably due to the relatively hard metals it's made of.

That's about as far as I've got. Still on track, just the piston, rod & big end, burner and wooden base to complete. I've decided against the metal base (again!). I was going to make a brass one and machine turn it but I decided you can only see 3/16" all around so it's not worth it and it's pointless to boot!

Here are a few snaps of the assembled engine so far. What a fiddly job that was  :lol: shame it's got to come back to bits!  :doh:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-47-26_0068.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-47-50_0070.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-48-52_0069.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-49-11_0071.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1700-49-27_0072.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1708-21-10_0073.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1708-21-28_0074.jpg)

Getting nearer to the elusive finishing line!

Nick




Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: saw on January 17, 2011, 09:34:19 AM
Nice
 :nrocks:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 17, 2011, 10:53:24 AM
"Proper Job!"   :clap:   :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on January 17, 2011, 10:58:35 AM
that looks so much better than mine!!!

can't wait to see it run!
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 17, 2011, 01:28:26 PM
That is turning out to be a great engine. Some nice looking work there!

Eric
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 18, 2011, 03:03:02 PM
Thanks guys,

I got a bit more done last night and today but the last few bits are taking a lot longer than I expected so slightly behind schedule. Going to cinema tonight so won't be making any further progress tonight!

I started work on the piston with the graphite kindly donated by Ade.

I sawed a chunk off and just gripped it in the 3 jaw - would have been better in the 4 jaw but as long as it held, the cutting forces are very low so I was able to turn myself a new datum to work from.

Faced the end:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1720-53-33_0001.jpg)

Then turned a length any old diameter to grip on:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1720-55-42_0002.jpg)

Flipped it around, faced:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1721-02-45_0003.jpg)

Then started turning down to size:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1721-06-25_0004.jpg)

Now taking the tiniest finishing cuts, something like 1/4 of a thou but easy to do with this material:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1721-15-23_0006.jpg)

Across into the milling machine to mill the slot for the con-rod. When I was turning the datum, it dawned on me to stop short and it would give me something to rest on and keep square in the milling vice. I just cut to the full depth using a 1/8" end mill. I widened the slot slightly though by a few thou as I'm using 1/8" silver steel for the con rod.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1721-31-21_0007.jpg)

Flipped on its side to drill hole for gudgeon pin. I've drilled it for a push fit in there so it stays in place and the con rod will have the clearance hole. I wasn't sure whether the graphite would wear, probably not but anyway, that's what I've done.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1721-57-45_0008.jpg)

Back into the lathe to part off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-07-50_0009.jpg)

Because it's quite brittle it snapped with about a 3/16" pip so I had to put it back into the chuck to face off with some aluminium to protect it:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-11-31_0010.jpg)

There's the finished piston with the gudgeon pin:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-13-30_0011.jpg)

Next was the conrod big end. This is made up from a couple of bits of brass fastened together then drilled so it can split and be fastened to the crank. The problem was, I didn't have any 3/16" square brass, so I would have to turn some 3/8" down (smallest my 4 jaw can cope with) and then mill the square down to 3/16". This is what took much longer than it should have given the right material.

Facing the 3/8" brass:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-27-47_0012.jpg)

Drilling for the 1/8" rod:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-36-23_0013.jpg)

Turning down to size:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1722-45-20_0016.jpg)

Over to the mill to whittle down to 3/16"

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-16-29_0018.jpg)

And the other side:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-25-52_0019.jpg)

Centre drilling for pin:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-53-46_0020.jpg)

and drilling through:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-55-53_0021.jpg)

Sawing off the parent stock:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-59-24_0022.jpg)

facing to length:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1723-59-24_0022.jpg)

It was supposed to have a 1/16" rivet in it but as I said before, I didn't have a rivet snap so I just filed it off flush, made a bit of a mess but it's ok I guess:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1800-34-11_0024.jpg)

The other part of the big end has a slot milled into it and fits snugly over the last bit like a clasp (think that's the word!) So this is 3/16" wide to fit between the crank webs and 5/15" deep.

Squaring up the brass:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-20-54_0025.jpg)

Milling down to 5/16":

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-23-05_0026.jpg)

and 3/16" in the other plane:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-32-20_0027.jpg)

Squaring the other end so I can stand upright to mill the slot:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-40-03_0028.jpg)

Marked up and ready to mill and drill:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-50-26_0029.jpg)

Drilling for the pinch bolt - notice my mistake here, I'd already centre drilled it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1815-53-54_0030.jpg)

Milling the slot - I nearly made a booboo here, I used the graduations on the handwheel to get the width - which didn't work but luckily I had a small cut on and I noticed soon enough. So I just went to my markings my eye then measured each side and the bit it slots over and took appropriate amounts off.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-03-50_0031.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-15-32_0032.jpg)

This is what I probably should have done before, don't know why I didn't drill it in one sitting. I had to re-position and pick up the original hole:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-24-55_0033.jpg)

Opening up the top prong for 8ba clearance:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-27-49_0034.jpg)

and tapping the bottom prong:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-29-53_0035.jpg)

At this point I thought I'd finished, but I still need to drill the holes for the crank journal and gudgeon pin and cut the rod to length - just minor points!! I was worried before about getting those two holes parallel but of course because I haven't done either it will be easy, just do it at the same setting.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-1816-37-33_0036.jpg)

After that, the engine is technically complete, I just need a base and a burner - which begs the question, do I try it by lashing it together before I have made those, hold the camera with my teeth, burner in one hand and other hand to flip the flywheel!  :lol:

Nick





Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: winklmj on January 18, 2011, 03:09:48 PM
Looks great. Can't wait to see it running.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: saw on January 18, 2011, 04:27:52 PM
Yes I like..  :ddb:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 19, 2011, 02:18:54 AM

After that, the engine is technically complete, I just need a base and a burner - which begs the question, do I try it by lashing it together before I have made those, hold the camera with my teeth, burner in one hand and other hand to flip the flywheel!  :lol:

Nick

What a daft question Nick!  :bugeye:     Of course you do!  ::)

A small tripod might help, by steadying the camera.......  :thumbup:

 :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:

 :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Bogstandard on January 19, 2011, 02:51:28 AM
This is looking really well now Nick, and I am sure you will have it running in no time.

Do what I did when I made my vid for the swing up threading tool, stick the camera onto a mag base, it only took a few minutes to make up a plate to get the two married together.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg25332#msg25332


John
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 19, 2011, 03:11:00 AM
This is looking really well now Nick, and I am sure you will have it running in no time.

Do what I did when I made my vid for the swing up threading tool, stick the camera onto a mag base, it only took a few minutes to make up a plate to get the two married together.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2323.msg25332#msg25332


John


Yep thats what I did having seen Johns works a treat great for taking stills as well removes camera shake.

Engine looking good Nick  :headbang: now lets see you whip it :whip: into life.

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 19, 2011, 06:23:15 AM
Thanks lads, forgot to mention I have to saw it from the stock adn face to length too! I didn't notice that optical illusion on the last photo before, it looks like there's a raised hump but actually it's just the pattern made by the end mill when I was trying to touch on! Or is that just my eyes?!

Great idea for the camera John, will definitely get onto that. I made a tripod for a uni project once (I say I, it was supposed to be a group project but I was the only one interested it getting my hands dirty!) have no idea where it is now, I remember robbing bits of metal off it at some point though!

It will be more useful in the workshop to mount it on the mag base though.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: AdeV on January 19, 2011, 10:47:01 AM
Nick, that's starting to look like a bought one ;)

Nice work, glad the graphite machined OK. Just a thought, is it light enough for this application? It looks like the piston is still quite a solid lump, I wonder if you don't need to machine a bit more out of it to feather-weight it a bit?

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 19, 2011, 11:21:39 AM
Hi Ade, thanks and thanks again for the graphite.

Not sure, you're right it does look quite solid, I was wondering about that as it is the only deviation I've made from the plans. The cast iron piston I made like that for the Jan Ridders flame gulper didn't work! But I thought a really thin wall with the graphite piston would be unnecessary as it's a lot lighter - that was my thinking anyway. Just had a quick look on tinternet and found the following:

Graphite is approx 2.09 - 2.23g/cm^3

Cast iron is approx  6.8 - 7.8g/cm^3

So cast iron is pretty much 3 x the density, I could model the two to check the weight but remember with the cast iron piston you've also got the yoke and screw so hopefully I should be ok for weight. I'm not sure whether I've got the fit loose enough but it seems to slide easily, drops through most of bore under it's own weight but seems a good seal so fingers crossed! I think it will quickly wear to where it needs to be.

The bit I'm more worried about than anything else is the big end. It doesn't have a ball race as per how Jim modified his, just a plain brass bearing. Think it will be the highest source of friction on mine. The roller rubbing on flywheel or flywheel on uprights could be another issue but I can mess around with washers etc to minimise anything like that.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: arnoldb on January 19, 2011, 12:08:27 PM
Well, you're cracking right along now Nick  :thumbup:

I'll openly admit I'm way too chicken to try and run those small taps under power!

 :beer:, Arnold
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 19, 2011, 02:28:15 PM
Thanks arnold, I won't be again! Maybe just starting with the taper tap to make sure it goes in straight but even that can be done by hand by turning the chuck.
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 20, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Well, got some more done tonight but some things just seem to take a lot longer than you'd think!

First job was to put the conrod assembly in the vice and drill the hole in the big end for the crank journal.

I picked up the middle pretty much by eye and centre drilled lightly as didn't want to force the two bits apart. (I don't think it would have though as the vice had quite a tight grip squeezing it all together)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2021-46-16_0001.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2021-47-33_0002.jpg)

I opened it up to suit the journal. I didn't have a 5/32" reamer so just used a number drill the next size bigger which happened to be no.21. You need a nice loose fit anyway, don't want excessive friction.

Then I cut the big end strap from parent stock:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2021-55-15_0003.jpg)

and tried to face it to length in the lathe. Luckily I took a very light cut as it moved:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2021-59-21_0004.jpg)

So back across to mill to length instead!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2022-07-30_0005.jpg)

Another picture seems to have gone missing but I basically set it up as follows, you can just see a bit of 5/32" rod in the pic which I put through the bearing and made it square with the table so I knew I was drilling the hole for the gudgeon pin parallel to the big end. Centre drilled

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2022-31-01_0007.jpg)

and drilled through. Again, next number drill size above the pin.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2022-32-11_0008.jpg)

Here's the finished rod. You can see in a couple of pics that it's not spot on but once assembled you won't be able to see and I don't think it'll affect anything, it's neglibible.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2022-36-32_0009.jpg)

So that was the last real component for the engine. Still got the burner and base to do but I decided to assemble the engine so it'll be ready to try a run tomorrow if I get the burner and base done.

I stripped the engine down into little bits, here they are:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2023-01-24_0010.jpg)

Lapped the end of the cylinder and both sides of the cover again. I want to give it the best chance when I try to run it and there is no gasket so these surfaces have to be flat to seal well.

Assembled the engine back together with things placed more precisely. I found the build up of tolerances on the cylinder bolt holes, holes on the standard, piston and rod have meant the rod is slightly ofset to the left when looking down the bore at the piston. So I've put a washer in on the right side of the crank which keeps it just in the right place.

The assembly was very fiddly indeed! :bang:, I wouldn't recommend this engine for a beginner because of things like I mentioned, the build up of tolerances - there isn't much room for manoeuvre, everything is planned down to a tee, all the clearances are built in so you have to make everything to as near to drawing as possible.

Here are a few snaps of the engine assembled, ready for the base and burner tomorrow:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2023-50-57_0012.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2023-50-45_0011.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2023-51-08_0013.jpg)

Looking quite good now I think, should look good when on its base. The question is, do I stick to my red flywheel scheme?! I deliberately left the centres of the flywheels rough so I could paint them.

Flicked it over a few times to get a feel for any tight spots, & whether everything seemed to work. It sounds promising, I can hear some suction and in fact it sounds just like Rick's from HMEM! Time to call it a night now, can't wait until tomorrow ...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkViVZm4WQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkViVZm4WQ)

Yeah right!!!  :lol: ... I've had you going long enough - I admit, I couldn't resist trying it to see if it would run!

Here are a few attempts. I missed the first one, I put the camera on but then didn't have enough hands so it just ended up pointing at the wall! I should have made the fixture for putting it on the mag base as Bogs suggested - will still do that soon.

I should point out that these are warts and all videos and unfortunately I've realised I waffle just as much in real life as I do in these posts. I seem to be mumbling quite a bit and probably not even making sense so apologies for that but anyway, you'll get the picture!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkMiXoXjBYI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkMiXoXjBYI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlhpRWZ5OyM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlhpRWZ5OyM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4TQvSpKZMA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4TQvSpKZMA)


 :D :) :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:



Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Bogstandard on January 21, 2011, 02:36:22 AM
Nick,

I bet you woke up still with a big grin on your face (if you managed to sleep that is).

That is a great result and proof that your machining techniques and problem solving are improving all the time.

Now just settle down, no rushing, do your little fiddles and tweaks without any bodging, and you will be able to enjoy your hard work for a long time to come.

Fantastic work


John
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: jim on January 21, 2011, 02:54:18 AM
its really great to see it run!!

thanks for sharing that!!!
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 21, 2011, 02:58:11 AM
Great result Nick

Do your fine tunning and make the burner and a bit of bling and you've an engine to be proud of  :thumbup:

Stew
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 21, 2011, 03:43:06 AM
Yay!  :D  :ddb:  :ddb:

That's a great result Nick!  :clap: :clap:

A bit more fiddlin an twiddlin, and it will be a happy, reliable engine.  :thumbup:

Thank you, for letting us share your "moments"........

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 21, 2011, 03:51:21 AM
Thanks John,

I did have the big grin, it was a bit of a rush this morning though, didn't get to bed until 2am because I was waiting for the video to upload to utube - the last one took about 40 mins. So didn't get much sleep, I reckon about 2-3 hours. Thought i'd be in big trouble as my son woke up as I went upstairs but I got away with it for some reason!

Yep, I need to try to make a good job on the burner and base now rather than rushing it. I need to sort the valve out and the arm. Might put a dab of loctite on the valve rod (it should never need to come out) and a spring washer to stop the valve nut from vibrating, or it might work just nipped up a bit more.

Thanks Jim, it was yours on here that originally inspired me and thanks for the bearings. Thanks to Ade for the graphite too - seems to have worked a treat (so far!).

Thanks Stew and David. I'm amazed how insensitive it is to flame size, position, valve timing and overlap & spring tension. The author mentions it in his build instructions that at some timing settings it will run in either direction! I don't think my cam turned out right and that was the first position I put the cam in and it ran straight away. It's possible that changing the above things will give it better running characteristics though so may have to change something but am loathed to yet until I have a proper burner. I don't want it running away at full speed though so I think to get it running slowly the valve should shut later, lighter spring tension and least overlap. The other strange thing is that it runs straight from cold!

Thanks again for the support and advice along the way chaps. This one is supposed to be for my dad's birthday but I definitely want to get the other one done for my collection. I think I'm going to finish this one over the weekend, then have a short break from the workshop (except for making a gear linkage thing for a friend's Lotus Elise Honda conversion), then finish the other poppin.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: arnoldb on January 21, 2011, 11:42:50 AM
Well done Nick!  :clap: :clap: - Congratulations  :beer: :beer:

 :scratch: What's next - the other Poppin ?  :lol:

 :beer:, Arnold
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: AdeV on January 21, 2011, 12:54:42 PM
Cracking build, Nick - and a runner! Woo!

 :nrocks:
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 22, 2011, 09:13:29 AM
Nick, that engine is really going together well, despite having to cut down all the stock to proper size, I thought I'd post in the middle and answer a question or two, with regard to the bushings, if it's a machine reamer, look at the angle on the leading edge where the cut is, go about half way up the angle, between the bottom of the relief and the o.d., and that's the minimum size hole to use, but you are better off with about half that.  Bronze and cast iron allow the most reaming with the least wear, stainless needs the least cutting, so the largest hole that will give a full cut.  If the bushes are made a press fit, ream them again in place, and they will fit perfectly.  As to threaded holes, a sixty percent thread cut with a tap will equal the strength of a grade five screw at 1 and a half diameters thickness, so with a tap hole giving sixty percent thread in an .125 rod for a .062 thread will give thread strength about one and a third the tensile strength of the sixteen in rod.  A 75% thread gives better than 90% strength of a 100% thread, and is about as much thread as you ever need unless working on rockets or something like that.  Stainless steel is the worst metal to work because it is amorphous, meaning the different metals in the alloy don't stay mixed well and evenly, but congregate with themselves, and come no where near the even hardness of a low alloy steel.  It is horrible for flywheels because it always is out of balance, and it never likes to be cut off, although it is very quiet when you give it a good whack with a hatchet, unawares.
   All that said, your progress is amazing, given the obstacles which pop up, and the rules which seem to be imposed, but it almost looks as if you could have built a "poppin" twice scale, and not had to cut all the raw stock in half before making the parts  :lol: all in all, you've done a very nice job getting things on spec, and with nice pictures showing all, I'm enjoying watching this and seeing it come out so well.  I cheated yesterday and looked ahead a bit, saw the poppin run a few strokes and then had to get out to work, so now I have to catch up on the log. :headbang: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 22, 2011, 09:48:15 AM
Hi Nick, my last post was yesterday's, so pretend it showed up before you got the engine running well, I didn't have time to view the long video, but I did today, and it looks great.  I'm still beating my head against my engine, but I think your build has shown up a few flaws in my design.  I need to get the mass of the flywheel right, more at the edge, much less in the middle.  I'm still fighting with excess friction in the valve gear, I think the valve gear design of the poppin is what makes it such a straight forward build, and not so picky about flames and position and such, and I think the poppin has the valve timing just about perfect as well, that last video is very impressive, particularly holding the flame by hand and moving it all about.  Definitely should paint the centers of the wheels red, no doubt about it :lol:  Once you've got the engine screwed down, and have an adjustable flame, you're dad's going to really enjoy that present, I have no doubt.  I was watching your valve and the timing very closely, and will use that insight in getting my engine to a running stage I believe.  This poppin build has been very informative, and helpful in establishing some ideas about ports, timing, and cam profile.  By the way, to make my own cam, I turned a hub for the grub screws, and turned a boss on the other side that was the small diameter, the clamped it in the mill vise, milled down to a smidge away from the boss diameter, then rotated the cam blank in the vise and milled another flat down to the boss, milling away the extra pointy metal left between the cuts, and used a file just to clean up where the two flats intersect, and got the minimum size dead on, and very little filing, with the boss to guide the filing without a button.  It was done in aluminum bronze mostly because that's what the piece of brass I found turned out to be.  I will be milling another flat, to remove another fifteen or twenty degrees off the cam, based on watching your video, and judging how far off my cam timing is based on your good working valve gear, since mine probably needs to work at least just as well.
    Very nice work, very good demonstration of making the material work to your needs, and getting it into its proper place, and a sure long runner, once you get it all fettled up and ready for Dad.  Very helpful in my own working out of bugs, and I truly appreciate that part  :lol: more than you will ever know  :poke:  Thanks much for the lessons, mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Rob.Wilson on January 23, 2011, 04:24:54 AM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Nice one Nick  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:   :thumbup:

Rob   :)
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 23, 2011, 05:07:43 PM
Thanks guys for following, your kind remarks and advice mean a lot, cheers.  :beer:

Jack, keep going, I'm sure you're going the right way. I reckon your current valve set up is better (less friction) but I still think it is actuated the wrong way. The cam should forcibly close the valve when you chose, which is about anywhere between 50 and 10 degrees before bottom dead centre on 'Poppin', and the spring should open it-  but spring pressure should only be light so that the valve can actually stay sucked to the port until the pressures equalise, so the cam follower actually leaves contact with the cam. Of course, if you know the exact figures, you can build this into the cam design which is what you'd need to do if you stick with your current method as your cam forcibly opens the valve, but if you switch it so your arm is effectively on top of the cam, the cam will close the valve, spring tension will open it. I know you might need to change some geometry to do that but it's worth a thought. You could leave your swinging valve mechanism but just have it actuated like poppin.

I gave things a miss on Friday night as I was pretty tired after lots of late nights. I was allowed to go into the garage on Sat during the day to try and get things finished off  :whip:

Time to get some (as Bogs would call it) brown stuff out. This is the point where all my hard work is spoilt by not being able to make things out of wood! I spend about 0.1 seconds searching for the right bit and found this lovely bit of, well, wood.  :scratch:

Hacked it into roughly a rectangular shape:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-05-20_0001-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-06-45_0002-1.jpg)

The saw just wouldn't cut it so to speak so transferred to a proper tool - yep, it's getting milled!

Flycutting to get it square:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-11-45_0004-1.jpg)

Then rotated around to do the end:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-17-41_0005-1.jpg)

At this point I realised that if I went one way with the flycutter it splintered one side, the other way it splintered the other! Problem was, I'd splintered alternate sides when flipped it over!  :bang:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-20-16_0006-1.jpg)

Anyway, i'll live with it!

At this point I drew on some newly found knowledge (kind of) from Bogs' Scott Vacuum Engine post. Working with wood is a bit like castings at first, except it's easy to grip and machine- but nothing is square! I couldn't fit this bit in my vice and didn't want to move the vice so I screwed a batton on underneath to grip it with:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-30-57_0007-1.jpg)

Cleaned up the top - I thought it was a bit thick anyway and this would at least get rid of the splinters on the top surface:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-33-10_0008-1.jpg)

Started my masterpiece, a stepped edge no less!  :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-42-25_0009.jpg)

Starting to take shape doing other sides:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2215-50-23_0010-1.jpg)

It looks a mess but these burrs come off with a few rubs of sandpaper by hand:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-00-51_0011-1.jpg)

Looks not too bad for me!

Marked up for engine mounting holes and drilled:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-12-06_0012-1.jpg)

The beauty of this is, you don't need to clamp, just position by eye and because the cutting force is low and the bit of wood relatively large you can just hang onto it and quickly drill through.

Turned over to counterbore the holes as the 6ba screws aren't long enough to go right through.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-19-33_0013-1.jpg)

That's the base nearly finished. Now onto the burner.

I found a bit of (I think) stainless tube that I got given at work:

Cut to length after facing, then other end was faced:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-31-57_0018-1.jpg)

Then found some brass hex just right size for lid and base:

Facing off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-49-01_0020-1.jpg)

Turning down to size - I overestimated how much needed to come off so had to go again!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2216-53-47_0021.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-00-10_0022-1.jpg)

Parting off for the base, this was to fit inside the tube and be soldered:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-09-27_0014-1.jpg)

Ready to solder in, I would just soft solder this as it shouldn't get hot enough to melt and doesn't need any massive strength, just be leak proof. I use this soft solder paste as flux that I found in my grandad's garage for soft soldering. Seems to work well, only thing is, it gets solder wherever you put the paste. Doesn't need to be too neat this though as underneath:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-23-23_0015-1.jpg)

Heated up and a bid more soft solder fed in:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-25-29_0016-1.jpg)

This didn't work. It's stuck to the brass but hasn't taken to the tube whatsoever. So all this had to be cleaned off.  :scratch:  :bang:

I decided to continue and make the cap while I had a thought how to stick it together:

This just needed a slightly smaller dia than the base for a sliding rather than push fit:

Still in the lather from before so it was faced and skimmed down to size:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-43-26_0023-1.jpg)

Then partly parted off:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-50-49_0024-1.jpg)

At this point I came over a bit funny and heard a voice in my head about artistic license! I would apply a little here, wouldn't recommend this but I just took very light cuts to give a chamfer:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-54-08_0025-1.jpg)

Then parted off but leaving a couple of steps:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2217-57-05_0026-1.jpg)

I sawed through the last bit as things were a bit close to the chuck for my liking so flipped it around and faced:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2218-35-13_0027-1.jpg)

Then just centre drilled and drilled through for an air hole:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2218-39-52_0028-1.jpg)

At this point I decided to put the angled wick tube into the side of the tube to get the correct height rather than into the cap as I had done with my Jan Ridders Flame Licker. So I set about drilling the angled hole. I just gripped in vice with the base half way up for support:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2218-59-45_0030-1.jpg)

I wasn't sure how to set the angle but then remembered I got a digi angle gauge for xmas which I hadn't used yet. Luckily it just fit between the jaws so I knew that for the first time, an angled thing of mine was about right!

Gradually opened up to 1/4" dia to accept some copper tube I had found:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2219-01-52_0031-1.jpg)

I had decided I would silver solder the base and wick tube in now - but that didn't work either. It just wouldn't take to the steel for some reason. I was sure I'd silver soldered stainless before, or at least seen it done?  :doh:

So even more of a mess had to be cleaned off now. I was mulling over what to do and decided that being as I had a good fit on the parts, I would loctite them together. Don't know whether it will work long term or not, I was going to use some epoxy glue like araldite but I didn't have any and didn't want to wait for ages for it to dry.

Can't find a pic of the completed burner but I went on to finish the base. I wanted to put a good fitting recess in it so as the burner would be positioned in the right place and the speed could be varied by rotating it within that recess. It would also stop the burner sliding about with vibration.

I was going to do this in the lathe but my lathe doesn't have a gap bed and couldn't quite swing it. So I thought I'd use the milling machine.

I have no boring head so I used the flycutter to outline the recess / sort of trepan to depth:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2221-45-50_0032-1.jpg)

Then used an end mill to carve out the middle to the same depth. This was tricky, kept forgetting which way my hands were turning if that makes sense!  :lol:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2221-51-55_0033.jpg)

I should have used the biggest end mill I had but never thought at the time.

Here you can see I went over the lines a little in a couple of places but not too bad:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2221-57-30_0034.jpg)

The brown stuff then had some more brown stuff rubbed onto it (teak oil) before the engine and burner were put into place.

Here is the finished engine no.1. I should have mentioned, since this is my dad's present, I decided to just put some emery cloth and oil on the flywheels to stop them going rusty rather than paint them:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2222-18-59_0035.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2222-19-08_0036.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2222-19-19_0037.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/NickG24/Poppin/2011-01-2222-19-30_0038.jpg)

I took a couple of videos last night but the engine kept running away with itself and getting a bit of valve bounce, then the valve would stick. So I had a slight adjustment to do giving it less valve overlap (as per instructions, I just didn't think it mattered before, but guess they are there for a reason!) today and took this video. Apologies if you can hear kids messing around in the background, this was just before a trip to mother in laws  :palm: !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfmtRP4OPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfmtRP4OPc)

As I said, I'll be having a short break from the workshop now, catching up on other peoples projects and getting back in the wife's good books before finishing off poppin no.2! She's feeling a little neglected over the last couple of months with me being in the workshop a lot!  :wack:

p.s. Just noticed that in those photos at the end, it looks like the engine overhangs the wooden base. It doesn't it's been carefully measured to ensure there is a nice border all around it. I've got OCD when it comes to things like that!  :lol:

Also, the pic of the stainless tube, must have been sawing it off before I'd faced the end, think I was sick of showing pics of facing off!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: sbwhart on January 23, 2011, 05:23:52 PM
Great run Nick  :thumbup:
 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 :nrocks: :ddb: :nrocks: :ddb: :nrocks:

Nice job with the brown stuff as well, I can't touch the darn stuff I've developed an allergy to it and just swell up.

Stew

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 23, 2011, 05:44:42 PM
Thanks Stew!  :D  :nrocks:

Oh yeah, I remember you saying that now  :doh: Best left alone anyway. It did get right up my nose after milling it actually, feel like I've got a cold but know it is the dust from that still in there. Will wear a mask next time, can be pretty awful stuff.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 23, 2011, 08:41:57 PM
Hey Nick, that run looks great :headbang: even the brown stuff looks good.  The kids sounded good too, mine are too old, now they're just a pain or a lifesaver, depending on what day it is.  Funny you should say that about the poppin valve gear and using it.  I've almost got it running, leaking too much around the .013 gauge so I'm moving my pivot north and going to try coming down with the valve, but just like the poppin.  I kind of was thinking along the same line as you with the valve opening from the spring, and only having to close against it.  I'm finishing up starting up a fresh '51 stroker panhead bottom, shovel head top custom chopper, doing the final checks and making it fire, and it's not been cooperating much either.  I've got to say, I was truly stoked to see that engine of yours finally running like a top, sounding good.  I'd bet you dad will we quite pleased when he gets it, bet you wish you had that second standard done about now,  :lol: don't you :poke: good going, mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 24, 2011, 05:36:23 AM
Thanks MadJack,

Haha, the kids were a bit of a nightmare yesterday!  :palm: But on the positive side they tired themselves out and slept all night without a peep!

Well done, sounds like you're about there, think I used a 0.005" feeler gauge, the drawing calls for 0.002" but I was thinking it'd be better a bit thicker to avoid creasing. The thinner one probably seals better (getting sucked against the port face) but maybe won't last as long.

Sounds like you ar a man of many projects!

I am very pleased with it too - hope dad likes it, but yeah wish I'd done the other!!! I've already being thinking about trying to turn the bits I have into a vertical to give it a bit of variation  :lol:

Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 24, 2011, 12:18:05 PM
Nick.
Looks beautiful......  :clap:

Runs beautiful......  :clap:

Yer lucky Dad, will be proud of you......   :D

Blummin well done!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 24, 2011, 02:40:49 PM
Thanks very much David. Looking forward to a bit of  a break now but also looking forward to the next project!

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: madjackghengis on January 24, 2011, 09:50:18 PM
 :beer: cheers Nick, that idea about turning the second one into a vertical one sounds pretty good to me, that keeps you from having to machine a second standard.  I think it just adds to interesting. :jaw: mad jack
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 25, 2011, 03:22:11 AM
That was my thinking MadJack, I can keep all dimensions the same so can still use all existing parts I have made but it will give me something different to do rather than repetative. The only thing I'm not sure about is, will it be ok with the flame directly underneath the port - will it heat up too much? Also, will it be too tall and spindly? guess I can space it how I want really though. Will have to do some mock ups on CAD. I can see the advantage of milling the standard from one piece though, everything stays nice and square and inline, so it'll be more of a challenge to do that with separate bits, or will it - because if necessary and I mess up slightly, I can just elongate holes until it finds its own correct position then bolt down. Another advantage is, if that all goes wrong, I can just make the standard and convert back to how it was intended!

Should be interesting.

Nick
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: AdeV on January 25, 2011, 05:51:33 AM
The only thing I'm not sure about is, will it be ok with the flame directly underneath the port - will it heat up too much?

You could always really challenge it & try to run it with the cylinder pointing upwards....
Title: Re: 'Poppin' Flame Licker
Post by: NickG on January 25, 2011, 08:09:45 AM
Ade - believe it or not that was my first thought!  :wack: :palm: