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The Shop => Tools => Topic started by: PekkaNF on July 06, 2019, 03:09:51 PM

Title: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on July 06, 2019, 03:09:51 PM
=2167

I know that corn or peanut husk is used for bras cases, but I'm not reloading. I need something to make steel parts uniform matt and nice. I don't have a sand blaster...something less dusty and smaller to replace it.

Where to get 2 kg of this sort of abrassive beans?

I can buy 25 bag of the real indrustrial stuff, but it is 10x too much and price is like 200€ + VAT + this +that

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: mcostello on July 06, 2019, 03:59:05 PM
Could You try something natural like rice?
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Will_D on July 06, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
Afaik: Ammunition re-loaders use crushed walnut shells to tumble their cases. These and rice i'm sure wouldn't work on steel.

As you say the real ceramic beans (or whatever) are too expensive as they are bought in bulk.

What about small river pebbles, or glass beads ??

HTH: Will
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: charadam on July 06, 2019, 05:16:16 PM
How about stainless pins. Like this:  https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/169008269/1-pound-of-stainless-steel-tumbling

I've been using 2kg of these for 5 years for brass cleaning, but IMO they should matt your steel nicely.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: John Hill on July 06, 2019, 05:18:11 PM
I assume lapidary supply places would sell smaller quantities of a whole range of abrasives.

Meanwhile your local machine shop may have a bucket full of old, blunt or broken inserts?
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: awemawson on July 06, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
Washed 6 mm pea shingle. Just blag a sample from your local builders merchant. It's sold in ton bags locally but also in 'handy bags' (20 kg) and it's not uncommon for people to want to match what they are buying to what they already have.

https://www.jewson.co.uk/search-results/?keywords=gravel
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: appletree on July 07, 2019, 06:01:59 AM
Possibly too coarse for what you need but works fine and cheap as chips. Get a toughened glass car side window pop it in a plastic bag hit it with a hammer break up the bits that are cracked but not separated. The shards are about 5 to 6mm cubes initially used ia a small machine as pictured above later built a bigger one. The glass is sharp and leaves a suitable finish on most metals I have tried, use wet or dry, lasts a good while

Phil
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on July 07, 2019, 07:06:13 AM
Yes stailess steel pins are used in rotary tumbler to clean cases but I bought a vibratory model, like in opening post.

Lotsa different abrsavises and ceramic/pebels ec. are used in rotarty tumblers to make rocks round, but I think that it would be too hard for metals.

Possibly too coarse for what you need but works fine and cheap as chips. Get a toughened glass car side window pop it in a plastic bag hit it with a hammer break up the bits that are cracked but not separated. The shards are about 5 to 6mm cubes initially used ia a small machine as pictured above later built a bigger one. The glass is sharp and leaves a suitable finish on most metals I have tried, use wet or dry, lasts a good while

Phil

I like the idea of tempered glass shrapnel. Must find a tempered glass. Thak you.

Do you use glass only or do you use some other "pebles" with it?
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: appletree on July 07, 2019, 08:21:42 AM
I use just the glass on its own, sometimes with water and a couple of drips of washing up liquid.
For cleaning moderate size rusty castings I put them in an electric cement mixer with plenty of gravel.

Phil
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: AdeV on July 07, 2019, 01:02:01 PM
Some years ago, I used nuts  :lol:

https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,3453.msg37310.html#msg37310

It didn't really do that much, though, so next time I think I'll try gravel  :scratch:
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Bluechip on July 08, 2019, 09:09:03 AM
All those aeons ago when I did lapidary I used Poultry Grit. Not just ordinary Poultry Grit but FLINT  Poultry Grit.

EG:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Agrivite-Flintgrit-Poultry-1-5kg-Packaging/dp/B003ZG5452/ref=sr_1_20?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&keywords=poultry+grit&linkCode=ur2&qid=1562590878&s=pet-supplies&sr=1-20

Usually obtainable from Farmers Suppliers not just Amazon / ebay etc.

The mixed / oyster-shell stuff is too soft, or though it will possibly polish as per walnut shells.

Fairly cheap ( or cheep  :lol:   )

Dave
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Will_D on July 08, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
Fairly cheap ( or cheep  :lol:   )

+50 on the humor
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tom osselton on July 08, 2019, 11:12:53 PM
And it doesn’t go egg shaped?
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Bluechip on July 09, 2019, 06:37:42 AM


Lay off, you two .....



.....................................................................   :palm:

Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: AdeV on July 09, 2019, 11:44:20 AM
Don't let them ruffle your feathers....

 :scratch: :palm:
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: howsitwork? on July 09, 2019, 03:15:14 PM
crowing about it doesn’t make it right , :doh:
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on July 10, 2019, 08:45:08 AM
Now, when pecking order and correct flint stone size is established, I can tell that the tubler is awaiting on the post office.

I have exhausted official reasonable acquisition channels for proper deburring media for low carbon steels and tool steels.

Looks like there are many options and all of them has some complications and benefits. Luckily I am just looking for a reasonable hobby solution for inferequent use. Seems to simplify a whole lot of stuff. Once I visited a compound bow manufacturer in US and they had a tubler to remove flash out of glassfibre, all looked very simple, but they told that it took some time to arrive with optimal media.

I though the whole thing would be really simple, and maybe it is: There are some machinining companies that use this method for deburring. I am thinkking of paying a visit and buy/beg small amount proper deburring media. Those comppanies have done their homework, should work for me too.

My "Plan B" is to visit my father/brother, they have collectionf of old junk and cars on the farm, possibly one extra securit window somewhere to do a little sience with it and sudden impact.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: chipenter on July 10, 2019, 04:31:33 PM
You can also buy crushed glass for block paving instead of sharp sand , be aware that it is very sharp .
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on July 16, 2019, 05:55:09 AM
Conacted two metal firms that do metal polishing and deburring. Another doesn't do it anymore (apparently a lot of manufacturing has been relocated on low cost countries to lower manufacturing quality) and another does manually. Both knew what was after but could offer only synpathy.

I made few enquiries about crushed glass, for some reason very fine as a blasting media is really easy to get, but real granules are unoptainable, next step is decoration size.

How ever local hardware store had "foam glas" for insulation, I really don't know what that is in English 50 litre bad weights about 20 kg and costs 14 Euros. Since it is actually a usefull medium temp insulation material it probably has more use as a . insulation.

It is pretty friable and floats atop of water. I put some parts for about 40-60 minutes cycle to it, checkking every 10 minutes and a tool steel shank come out really nice. Other parts were interesting. This media knoks off finest burr, and matts the surface if it of decent quality, but really strugles with pitting/rust etc. Good news it that matte-finish ir really shallow, hardly any dimenssional change, dis nothing to internal holes or threads.

Looks consumbale, the media rounded off fast and a 30% of it was reduced to sludge. I washed them to start with. Sludge/dust is easily rinsed off, it is really fine and hard so see how it would have any enviromental hazard.

It would be pretty good if it were a whole lot harder/heavier. Maybe good for plastic or other soft material.

I have a problem with "stone", think there is danger of leaving hard particles behind. But might need to try that one next.

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: assink on July 18, 2019, 05:23:24 AM
Cant you use basalt gravel or something like that? The stuff you would use on drive ways?
We have drainage pipes in our fields, they used "glass ash" that stuff was rock hard and cheap.
I suppose is some sort of crushed slag, dont know if it's available in ur area.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on July 18, 2019, 06:33:11 PM
Yes that could be one choice. I have that in my backyard a litle heap left from paving work. We use a lot of under the concrete tiles outside to level harder cruched rock bed. However I would hate to have any of that left into threads or such.

I ordered a 2x5kg set of differetn abrassive pyramids and for polishing ceramic cylinders + little polishing liquid that has antirust properties. All from Germany from a small comppany that is specialized on this sort of products, they don't normally deal with private customers, shiping was 40 EUR, but they definantely seem to know their stuf.

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on August 18, 2019, 05:47:31 AM
Forgot yo update. Some results here.

First 45 mins and then one hour more tumbling. It does remove burr, but does not change dimenssions any measurable way.
Cut "lip" somewhat smaller and left burr untouched after turning: P8181780c

Same part after one hour of "tumbling": P8181789c

El cheapo small tumbler is ok for mostly small parts I bougt it for. Would be nice, if the bowl would be more donugh shape (it would rotate the parts more and it would be faster to pick them up when they surface). Also would be nice to have quick connect bowls for easy change (different media or material).

One thing I don't know is how much to use this "cutting oil" that bought with it.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on August 18, 2019, 06:18:43 PM
Quite taken by this thread, I saw Stefan’s video when he released it and had been looking at tumblers for a while.  I finally bite the bullet  LOL  and ordered a Lyman Pro 1200.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on August 19, 2019, 05:25:25 AM
Quite taken by this thread, I saw Stefan’s video when he released it and had been looking at tumblers for a while.  I finally bite the bullet  LOL  and ordered a Lyman Pro 1200.

Great. Some peer support :wave: What metal and use you have for it?

I found fairly easy information about case polishing and rock rumbling, but really could not find any HMS level information.

When I used the foam glass, I came to conclusion that it was way too light weight for solid metal objects - looking at tumbler working it would appear that there is a benefit if the parts and aggregate are somewhat of same density.

I bought these:

1: Deburing:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/ceramic-media/triangle/ke-d-46-6-10-10-in-5-kg-bags2

2: Satining:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/ceramic-media/cylinder-angle-cut/ke-zs-22-4-3-10-in-5-kg-bags1

3: liquid for color metals, testing with steel:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/compound/compound-vf-109-in-5-kg-kanister

Where I am at now is deburing of steel. Not really done any good experiments with the cutting/polishing/protective liquid part. I hear it has an effect and I can see that debris does not stick to abrasive media when I use is, but amount, dilution, etc. are a big question mark. I am not sure how subtle the effect is.

Half of the reason for shelling out money, was to see if "satining" could be used in lieu of media blasting. I haven't tried it yet.

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on August 19, 2019, 05:44:33 AM
https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,4342.0.html

The above link might be if interest if you haven’t already seen it.  My area of interest is in fastener polishing, or satining.  Use heatshrink or cable sleeve on the thread as I don’t want those touched.  I might also try some masking for marking items by tumbling.   The number one use will be for tumbling small 3D prints to reduce/remove the layer lines.

No doubt other uses will pop up as we play  :thumbup:

Oh, and thanks for the heads up on matching tumbling media to density of object being tumbled.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on August 19, 2019, 07:44:43 AM
Thank you for the link. I don't know how I missed it. Must read in the evening.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on August 19, 2019, 10:42:56 AM
Take a look at aquarium gravel, I am looking for cheap media to try with such as Brasso and paraffin.  The Aquarium gravel is very regular in size and probably more suited for smaller parts, plus I can get bags of the stuff locally at a pet shop.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on August 19, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
 :D

Not forgetting the ultimate tumbler video from Photonicinduction.

Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on August 21, 2019, 01:55:22 PM
I got my tumbler the other day and started doing some tests.  I wasn't keen on buying some of the tumbling media as it can get a bit pricey.  A friend who's Mum lives in France has vast quantities of walnuts, so it looks like I will be getting a sack of shells to play with at some point...
 :lol:
Hmmmm, crusher is going to be on the ever increasing list of projects.   I went to the local pet shop and picked up two bags of Aquarium gravel, not really knowing how much I would need, one bag would have done twice over.  Hey only wimps read the manual first !!!  I did surprisingly read the packet for the gravel and washed the first 2kg as instructed.  Then couldn't wait for it to dry, thinking it will self lubricate wet.   Tumbling was not a success with twice the amount of wet media it rolled about in clumps.   Open the second bag, dry the drum and try that...   Much better and started thinking about different grades of media and getting some spares bowls so I didn't contaminate the media.  That was when I found out you add upto 2lbs (about 1kg) of dry media.  Soooooooo, weighing out the correct amount I went on my way with a few more tests.  Finally doing some serious work with snap rings I make here.  These are stainless steel, heat treated and sized in a die.  Previously they have gone into the ultrasonic tank for cleaning, but this time into the tumbler.  It did a similar job on removing the scale, however the ring ends had the sharp edges knocked off from shearing the wire, and they work hardened a little better after 2hrs in the tumbler.   This isn't conclusive proof your old fish tank gravel will work wonders, but it was cheap per kg.  I did try tumbling some plastic parts, and they didn't float about as I thought they might, but the fine gravel didn't really have much mass to rub down the PLA.  I think heavier media and possibly sharper media would work better.

With more experience I am sure this will become a valuable tool for the workshop and provide surface finishes, deburr of small metal components I make here.  This model of tumbler runs about 60w, so a few hours tumbling won't really impact my parts electric cost.   Tumbling isn't fast, but it's a lot less hassle than deburring by hand and you can be getting on with other work.   My only caution would be using gravel, lay some paper towel over the tumbler to stop gravel dust getting into the shop/lungs.   I sift the gravel after use and discard the material that falls through the sieve as it does get broken up during use.  Plug any holes or gaps you don't want jamming with media in items for tumbling.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on August 21, 2019, 02:41:12 PM
Interesting test. How did that gravel deburr the ends? Just knocked off the burr or actually round the edge?

I raise thin, but pretty sharp burr when parting off (lathe). Think that lathe burrs are thin but pretty high.

I imagine that those snap rings have relatively large burr.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Joules on September 09, 2019, 09:55:32 AM
Hi Pekka, it knocked the edges off rather than debur, but my shear doesn't really leave a burr on these.  It cleaned the scale off from heat treating.

For anyone after a 3D printed solution I came across this.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3666116
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: appletree on September 11, 2019, 03:11:34 AM
I had a similar tumbler, the lid was solid so dust didn’t come out, as the media was heavy I ncreased the mass off the eccentric weight and yes it did work better. Unfortunately the bearing housings wore out. Be warned!
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tonyfoale on January 10, 2020, 11:08:55 AM
I recently had to make a trip to the US. Usually on my way back to an airport I stop off at a Horror Fright store and top up my luggage allowance.  However, past trips had pretty much exhausted my needs of stuff small enough for luggage and so I bought one of these
https://www.harborfreight.com/5-lb-metal-vibrator-tumbler-67617.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/5-lb-metal-vibrator-tumbler-67617.html)

and https://www.harborfreight.com/540-lb-Medium-Ceramic-Abrasive-Polishing-Tumbler-Media-63673.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/540-lb-Medium-Ceramic-Abrasive-Polishing-Tumbler-Media-63673.html)

and https://www.harborfreight.com/520-lb-Rust-Cutting-Resin-Abrasive-Tumbler-Media-63672.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/520-lb-Rust-Cutting-Resin-Abrasive-Tumbler-Media-63672.html)

I also tried some sharp sand and some glass beads.

I feel that I had wasted my money.  It is useless.  Against the wisdom of the instructions I tried the bought media with water.  That worked a little better but still very poorly.
I will try it with some of the media suggestions from this topic.

PS.  A while back I built a very Q&D rotating tumbler using a 75 rpm motor and gearbox from an old photocopier and that works so much better.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on January 10, 2020, 03:20:22 PM
Great update.

I have been using tumbler and commercial media, laced with polishing liquid. I am happy with results. I typically use it for light deburring and it takes from 1/2 hour to 2 hours of buzz in garage.

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tonyfoale on January 10, 2020, 04:34:08 PM
Pekka,

Can you give some more detail on the media and polishing compound?
Watching your video shows that the media motion is totally different to mine.  It is much more active and the media path is very different.  Tomorrow I will video the motion of mine and post here.  Comparing yours and mine it is very obvious why mine is such a disappointment.

Your video also indicates that the suspension system on yours has a lower resonant frequency than mine.  i.e. it is supported on softer springs but this could be related to the rpm of your motor, do you know what that is, the specification plate does not include that.  I will check mine with a strobe.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on January 10, 2020, 06:03:47 PM
The OP video is not mine, I don't speak German,  Stefan Gotteswinter does!

I bought these:

1: Deburing:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/ceramic-media/triangle/ke-d-46-6-10-10-in-5-kg-bags2

2: Satining:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/ceramic-media/cylinder-angle-cut/ke-zs-22-4-3-10-in-5-kg-bags1

3: liquid for color metals, testing with steel:
https://www.avatec.de/en/verfahrensmittel/compound/compound-vf-109-in-5-kg-kanister

More on #25:
https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,12940.msg155256.html#msg155256

Mine tumbler is cheaper and the movement is a little different. There is that circulation that turns media/parts up to bottom, but the media also "walks" inside the tumbler in clockwise direction.  I noticed that polishing works better when media density is close to part density. I am not sure if this is a general thing or just experience. Also the "cutting oil" seems to help and prevent post polishing rust, but it is hard to put number on it.

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tonyfoale on January 11, 2020, 06:57:56 AM
Pekka,

Thanks for the info.  It sounds like your media motion is similar to mine.  Mine has a bowl with vertical ribs in it, which must hinder the rotating media.  If I can get a Leyman bowl of similar size I would be interested to see if there was a difference.
Sorry about the mix up with whose video it was. 

This morning I added some detergent and water in the same quantities as in Stefan's video and although it has not been running that long yet it does seem to be working better.  That is with the plastic/abrasive media of the same shape and size as in the video.
Mine has a 2 pole motor in it so it spins at just under 3000 rpm @ 50 Hz, although made for the US 60 Hz which would be 3600 rpm.  I expect that with a 4 pole motor and half the rpm the magnitude of the drum motion would be greater but whether that would clean/deburr/polish any better is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: Peter Cordell on January 11, 2020, 07:57:33 AM
Not sure if this is any help

The uk aquarium gravel is most lilky pea shingle that helps keep the white hard water line around the top of your aquarium tank also helps to kill your plants by rasing the water hardness and ph not so good for all the fish

However some peple use german quartz gravel as its inert
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tonyfoale on January 11, 2020, 12:41:47 PM
Here is a link to a 20 second video of mine working (or not working) with two different media loads.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dz77ztunty1qp4k/BadTumbler.mp4?dl=0

Compare to the first 10 seconds of Stefan's video.  It is not hard to see why mine is a disappointment.
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: PekkaNF on January 11, 2020, 02:33:01 PM
Mine is something in between. I noticed that total weight of the "load" is a factor. My brother has a Lyman case tumbler, that circulates mead a little faster with brass cases and corn cob or walnut. I don't know how much these are optimized (or marginal design). Mine is that loud that I put always lid and leave it running on garage floor (no way of running of the table or scuffing something).

Pekka
Title: Re: Burr and matting media for vibratory tumbler to nicefy steel
Post by: tonyfoale on January 17, 2020, 11:01:55 AM
An update on my HF tumbler. 
In original form the out of balance weight is at the bottom of the motor.  I considered this as incompetent design, totally sub-optimal, and thought that it should be raised to fit between the top of the motor and below the bowl.  I removed the motor and weight and offered it up to the bowl upside down.  It looked like with minimal mods it would fit.
The original weight was from round bar and to get working clearance I would have to space the downward more than I wanted so I made a replacement weight from some scrap 1/2" steel plate.  The original was also mounted far out on the motor spindle so I cut the spindle shorter and mounted the new weight as close to the motor as possible. with these mods I only had to space the motor downwards by the width of a washer.  Quite acceptable to me.  All that remained was to drill a hole in the base to reroute the motor cable to the switch and power supply.
The first was with an empty bowl and it was immediately obvious that the bowl was vibrating quite a bit more.  Loaded with about 1.5 kg of the plastic abrasive media the flow pattern of the media was very different and much more active.  My assessment of the original design was proved correct but the really annoying thing is that i added no additional parts and the manufacturing cost would not have changed to make it properly.
I'll post some photos of the mods and video of the agitation in the next few days.