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The Craftmans Shop => New from Old => Topic started by: awemawson on May 19, 2018, 07:14:19 AM

Title: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 19, 2018, 07:14:19 AM
Well I've been and gone and done it again  :bugeye:

This Beaver TC 20 CNC lathe was too much to resist - after all it's paint scheme matches my Beaver PartsMaster CNC Mill  :lol:

Ex Portsmouth University, the sellers father bought it, had it briefly running, but then unfortunately died - that was five years ago and the machine has sat unused and un-powered for that period. The cosmetics of the outside are excellent, but inside the swarf guards have light rust - it's obviously been turning machinable wax, as there is still some swarf in it, and that would be without coolant, so the guards haven't been kept oily by coolant hence the rust.

The control is a Siemens Sinumerik 820T - having been left powered off the back up battery (last changed 2008!) is obviously dead as a door nail and all the parameters and plc data have been lost.

I went to inspect on Thursday, and although I got 3 phase power on to the machine I could get nothing what so ever out of the controller - no screen display, no leds nowt  :scratch: Might be dead simple, might be a nightmare

A bit smaller than the Traub this is an estimated 3 tons and has a 2.75 x 1.98 metre footprint - just need to get it shifted the 80 miles home and I can start playing  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 19, 2018, 07:22:47 AM
The fellow who is selling has lost all the documentation and also the tool setting probe which is very sad, the Siemens stuff is all available on the web for download but Beaver went out of business in the early 1990's so the machine specific stuff is thin on the ground.

Fortunately there is a floppy disk in a door pocket that claims to have the machine and plc parameters on it - I do hope so - it may just be blank  :bugeye:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Joules on May 19, 2018, 07:26:44 AM
You have a problem Andrew, what with this knowledge of skipping porn stars and an addiction to Beaver, you really should seek help.

       :lol:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: seadog on May 19, 2018, 07:52:36 AM
I await the next awemawson epic. Showing on a forum near you, soon!  :clap:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 23, 2018, 12:55:40 AM
Well a tiny bit of progress, I've located a Renishaw tool setting probe. You'll recall the seller of the lathe lost his  :bang:

The one I've found is off a Beaver CNC lathe and was left behind when the lathe was sold. Vendor can't remember the model number, "but the Chuck was 300 mm". Now the TC 20 has a 250 mm Chuck and as far as I can find out Beaver never made a CNC lathe with a 300 mm Chuck

Chuck size is important as the probe reaches round and past it to touch the selected tool in the turret. The problem is that these probes are assembled from a huge variety of element lengths to suit a particular machine - hopefully if this isn't spot on I can move the programmed measuring point to suit it - I'm hoping he'd forgotten the size of his chuck - I never mentioned Beaver, he named the lathe so hopefully . . . :med:

Darren, my Tractor Shed builder has volunteered to shift the machine the 80 miles to my place, but we are waiting on the seller to fix the steering ram on his forklift so he can load it
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 23, 2018, 08:54:35 AM
Well today is officially a GOOD DAY  :thumbup:

The touch probe seller has been in touch (no pun intended!) and confirmed that it was off a TC-20 lathe, and not only that he still has manuals for the Sinumerik controller - so how good is that  :clap:

. . . . negotiations are in progress . . . .  :ddb:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 23, 2018, 10:20:26 AM
Do you believe in co-incidences ?

Turns out that the probe I've found is coming from Gosport - now the lathe was originally at Portsmouth University 13 miles away by road, but by Gosport ferry across  Portsmouth Harbour probably less than a mile  :bugeye:

Now from my research Beaver were making about 45 TC-20 per year from 1987 to 1992 - or approximately 225 as a total world population - surely there has to be a very high chance that this is the original probe.

. . . how cool would that be . . . suitable question fired off to probe seller regarding his affinity to the Engineering Dept at Portsmouth University  :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Brass_Machine on May 23, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
So Andrew....

Nice find! But, are you gearing up to run a production line?

Eric
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 23, 2018, 01:29:01 PM
Eric,

As you know well, it's the journey that I enjoy rather than the end result   :clap:

I just love taking some neglected unloved bit of machinery and putting it right, if only some young slip of a gal  would do the same with me  and put  a smile on my face :lol:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Brass_Machine on May 23, 2018, 02:06:36 PM
Awesome!
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 24, 2018, 10:29:24 AM
I knew it was too much of a co-incidence. The chap flogging the Renishaw Probe used to operate this machine at Portsmouth University :clap: :clap:

Not only that - he still has manuals and training materials - negotiations ongoing . . . .
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Pete. on May 24, 2018, 12:23:02 PM
Man that's what I call fall over in Doris' sty and coming up smelling of roses :D
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: hermetic on May 24, 2018, 01:03:07 PM
Have we done the Balding Beaver joke yet Andrew?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 24, 2018, 03:46:31 PM
Just come off the phone from a long chat with the Renishaw Probe seller - he still works at the Uni . . . .

. . . . the manuals are mine and being posted tomorrow. He was last machining PTFE on it, and that was 2010 - the swarf from it is still in the machine  :clap:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2018, 10:57:16 AM
Still not managed to get the machine transported - seller hasn't mended his forklift yet, and no one can tell me what the machine weighs  :bang:

BUT - the probe has arrived along with the bundle of software manuals, as has a second hand 'Peli Case' that I bought to house it. The tip of the probe would originally have had a protective cover, which has gone missing so I 3D printed one this morning, and at the moment the Cetus 3D printer is making me a cap to protect the electrical connector, but that has another three hours to run.

. . . just need the 'pick and pluck' foam block that I have on order for the Peli case and it will be safe.


 . . . oh and the lathe would be quite handy too  :lol:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2018, 01:14:35 PM
And the good news keeps rolling in  :ddb:

The nice chap who sold me the probe has been looking though his files and has emailed me with what appears to be a complete set of back up parameters from this machine for the  820T controller, the PLC, and all the various off set corrections and pitch corrections. He has even included one or two examples of programs.

Funnily enough today I was looking through his programming course notes hand out that he had sent with the probe, and noticed that in the very first example they give they had printed an error - simple positioning to turn a stepped profile - it had the set up bits like metric measurement, absolute positioning etc then went straight into a list of co-ordinates without issuing a G00 or G01 move command, so it could never have worked. I hope they found that on the course   :clap:

At last I've found a weight for the machine - 6.25 tons  :bugeye: and at vast expense have commissioned a professional machine moving company to collect and deliver using their enormous hi-ab equipped lorry - only problem now is that the seller is proving elusive and not answering phones or texts.

Meanwhile I've been offered another Beaver TC-20, slightly younger but in far worse condition cosmetically for less than it's costing to MOVE mine ! Shame to miss it, as obviously it would be an excellent spares 'Christmas Tree', but again I'd have to move it. Tempting as I have room for it and it has a full set of documentation. I'll try and liberate the documentation at least, or just maybe buy it and strip it on site though the removable chunks are pretty sizable on their own .

. . . any volunteers for a day out in Birmingham helping me pulling a machine apart in a controlled fashion !

It's not quite identical being fitted with a different tool turret and machine control panel but the Sinumerik controller is fundamentally the same. Picture to show it's not as nice as mine  :ddb:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: chipenter on May 30, 2018, 01:53:43 PM
Was that on ebay last week ? if so they wanted 100 loading fee , I am not surprised it nod not sell .
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 30, 2018, 02:58:30 PM
Yes Jeff, and it's been re-listed. He is paying huge warehouse fees and is getting desperate poor chap.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: AdeV on May 30, 2018, 05:00:57 PM
A word to the wise....

...be extremely cautious with that seller.

I bought my first Interact 1 Mk2 machine from him. It was described as being in "good working order", having a TNC151 controller, and - since the photos on eBay showed it outdoors - I specifically asked if it was stored indoors, to which I received an affirmative.

When my man went to pick it up, it was still outside, and soaking wet (it's Birmingham, it rains almost as much there as in Manchester).

The tools, when I got them, were all full of water.

The controller was a TNC150, not the promised TNC151 (ok, I can maybe understand that mistake).

Once I'd given the machine a week in a warm place to dry out, it "mostly" worked. The motor cooling fan was seized (from the rain, probably) and the coolant pump didn't work.

Fortunately, I managed to acquire the machine I still use to this day, for less money, later on; and shifted the less good machine on for what I paid for it (to a chap who was happy to take it at the price even with the faults described).

It's highly unlikely it's costing Bilal anything in warehousing; chances are it's still at it's original owner's place, and he's screaming to get it out of the bl**dy way...
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on May 31, 2018, 12:58:44 PM
I speak as I find, and to be fair the chap has been very helpful to me - he made a special visit to the warehouse to photograph the documentation for me, and try and find a weight for the machine. If it doesn't sell on eBay this time round I've no problem getting back in touch with him, but obviously I will keep your caution in mind Ade.

There's good and bad in all of us I suspect  :med:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 04:46:43 AM
Well after several false starts and delays I got the call 08:30 this morning to say it's loaded to the wagon and on it's way  :clap:

Now this has sent me into a flurry, as previously it was going to be tomorrow and I've committed to transporting an elderly friend to and from the dentist for a check up bang on when it's expected  :bang: Oh well I expect it'll sort itself out  :scratch:

Have some pictures of my lathe swinging from a large hook !
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 10:19:18 AM
So rather surprisingly we were able to get Geoff through the dentist slightly ahead of time, and I got a text from a friend just as he was finishing, to say that a big lorry was pulling into the farm and did I need a hand !

So we got back to the farm in time to see the lathe swinging again on the hook - a very professional chap on the (remote) control knew just what to do - extending the Hi-Ab as far as the load limiter would allow got it poked so that the Tailstock end was just able to be put on skates, then he shifted the lifting point to the Headstock end and was able to gently ease it into place.

Then a bit of work with some rather nice toe jacks got it off the skates and back on it's levelling feet. All a bit tight but 'workable' (I hope) - it's slightly smaller than the Traub so how the heck I got that in I don't know  :scratch:

It's been a  bit of an emotional roller coaster getting so far and I feel exhausted, but when I've fed the pigs I'll go back to the workshop and try and get a feel for what I've taken on this time  :bugeye:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 10:24:12 AM
The firm I used had all the right equipment and the driver certainly knew his Hi-Ab. Superb lorry, nice Toe Jacks,, good skates and a massive hook on the hi-ab that probably weighs more than that Denford Mirac that I mended !

Of course it would never have moved if Geoff hadn't given a push at the crucial time  :lol:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: j1312v on June 12, 2018, 11:25:07 AM
 :jaw: Nice Project Matt!!!

I that the ex-uni lathe or the one in the Midlands?

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Ex Portsmouth University

. . . who's Matt  :scratch:


State of play at the moment is that I have it wired to 415 three phase. With an earth connected it's tripping a 100mA RCD - (when I hooked it up on site it had no earth) - symptoms remain as previously, no life or LEDs on the controller.

I'll try and pull the controller out this evening and see what's happening - the way it's mounted is a bit silly as there is no easy way to it's rear other than unscrewing it, and the back up battery is mounted on the rear of the controller. This battery has to be changed with the power on, so not sure how that is supposed to happen - may find out later!
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: hermetic on June 12, 2018, 02:09:47 PM
Look out for capacitor filter arrays that are centre tapped to ground, but if it has been stood in a damp shed for a few months, it may just be moisture, good luck with it Andrew. A new saga begins!
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 02:28:35 PM
I'm rather hoping that the earth leakage is tied in with the controller not showing life - maybe it's internal PSU. Going over to have a gander shortly when my supper has settled  :thumbup:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 04:29:35 PM
So back to it, objective being to get to the back of the controller. It's in a pretty well totally sealed box apart from the Operators Panel (below) and a filtered vent hole to the right.

I started by removing all the numerous screws retaining the Operators Panel, and noticing that one corner is broken but all bits there for later gluing. Having pulled the panel forward revealing the expected backs of switches, cables etc I noticed a small wet patch of brown liquid that obviously had come from above. There is only the control above and no way water falling on top of the machine could get to here as it is a solid box. Burst Capacitor or Battery I'm thinking at this point.

OK put the panel back and attack the Controller. Removing all it's screws there is no away it will pull out.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: j1312v on June 12, 2018, 04:37:40 PM
Sorry Andrew, because of the "ew" at the end all Matthews and Andrews are the same in my head   :doh: don't know why  :scratch:

Good luck finding that earthed bit on the machine, one think that helps is to disconnect, clean and reconnect... :dremel:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 04:41:13 PM
To get better visibility I removed the filter from the vent and shone a torch in revealing  a niffty bracket along the top of the controller stopping it sliding forward.

It was at this point I dropped the torch inside and no way could I get my fingers to it  :bang:

However feeling about inside as far as I could reach I discovered some Bakelite knurled headed screw knobs holding the surrounding panel in place. They were far too tight for hand unscrewing, and gripping them with pliers took some major contortions but they all came off in the end allowing me to unscrew the panel, get my hand in further to rescue the torch, and also see that the square holes under the controller were obviously intended to support a temporary shelf to pull the controller onto.

I cut some 3/4" square bar to make two supports for a bit  of surplus aluminium plate as a shelf, and reached in and was able to unscrew the retaining bracket
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 12, 2018, 04:47:40 PM
So at last the rear of the Controller is revealed, but so is a lot more corrosion, and absolutely no sign of the back up battery  :scratch:

I'm sure the horrors MUST have been caused by a leaking battery, but I cannot at the moment see it, OR it's holder - very strange.

But that's enough for today - I'm wacked
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vtsteam on June 12, 2018, 11:58:51 PM
Nothing by halves, Andrew! The brown juice, not so nice.  :(  I'm sure you'll have this thing spinning, though.  :dremel:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 05:58:19 AM
Progress report:

This mornings objective - get the controller out of the machine and find where the battery is / was.

I went round arbitrarily labelling cables and their associated sockets so that I stand some chance of getting it back as it was , then it was a case of unscrewing socket retainers pulling cables off and withdrawing the controller. Some of the badly corroded fixings on cable shell sheared off not surprisingly.

(many of these pictures are for record purposes so perhaps a bit boring - sorry :scratch:)
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 06:02:25 AM
So with the controller on the bench I attempted to remove all the cards from the card cage - again in places the corrosion defeated screwdrivers and some screws had to be drilled out.

But finally all cards were removed from the card cage - quite a bit of electronics here  :bugeye:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 06:15:21 AM
Now Card-B would appear to be the root cause of all this corrosion.

It holds a plug in sub-module with the culprit battery backing up four 32k x 8 bit static rams. The battery has swollen, presumably burst, and dribbled it's contents down this card. Also on this card is the interface to the Probe, the MPG module and the I/O module

It is possible that this card and sub-module are recoverable, but it would be highly desirable to replace them . Apart from the 48 pin big i/c which I assume to be a custom LSI, all the other i/c's are standard LSTTL from the 7400 range
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 06:28:32 AM
I think my next task must be to see if the controller Power Supply works with all the cards out - and if it doesn't then fix it.

There is another plug in battery compartment suspended above the  CRT - not yet been able to withdraw it, and also there is another logic crate labelled up "MPG Module" and "I/O Module"  which interfaces to Card B via an umbilical cord with that very corroded plug.

 . . .oh joy  . . . off to google these cards . . .   :coffee:

"Card B" = 570 212 9202.10

Sub Module with the RAM & Battery = 570 342 9101.00
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Spurry on June 13, 2018, 08:41:08 AM
That's an incredible amount of damage from what looks like a puny little battery.
I wonder how long it took to get to that state...
Pete
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 10:15:54 AM
Well Pete, the sticker says that the battery was changed  18/09/08 so best part of ten years ago . . but which battery are they referring to . . the other one mounted in a sliding drawer over the CRT unplugged reads  3.65 but drops to 0.15 volts when plugged in according to it's monitor points, but they don't seem to go directly to the battery - four wires leading away from the tray into the depths of the controller. To get that (good until 2007!) battery to drop to 0.15 volts I have to load it with 2.2 ohms so obviously those wires are going somewhere else !

Progress report - that badly corroded Card-B - I've manage to source one in Germany for a modest 50 including postage, but not the little sub module yet. I can find very similar ones that have some components missing from the board. I suspect that as the controller evolved they went away from battery back up and went to NV Ram, altering that little board to suit

I have powered up the Power Supply and the 5 volt line at least is working - it provides +5 volts and and +/- 15 volts but I can't find a convenient point to monitor the +/- 15. I took a chance and plugged all the cards back other than Card-B and the PSU held up , there was static on the monitor screen and the one LED on the cards illuminated
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: nrml on June 13, 2018, 10:39:55 AM
Pardon my ignorance. Are these cards made by Siemens for a number of different applications or are they custom built for the manufacturer and model?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 11:12:58 AM
Siemens made a range of industrial CNC controls under the Sinumerik name - dependant on the machine tool makers requirements a standard controller crate would be stuffed with more or less goodies.

Basically they are microprocessor driven computers with many custom algorithms for motion control, and I/O (input / output) to suit the application. So that horrid card that I'm calling 'Card-B' has on it battery backed RAM memory for machine parameters, an interface for the probe, and a bus highway driver to a remote set of I/O mainly hidden under the controller in the MPG and I/O crate (Shown in the picture above 'More Electronics') This seems to have got off lightly with just one corner affected. I will have to pull it out and clean it up, but I >THINK< it's recoverable :scratch:

The white deposits remind me of dry rot fungus  :bugeye:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: NormanV on June 13, 2018, 11:20:53 AM
"Basically they are microprocessor driven computers with many custom algorithms for motion control, and I/O (input / output) to suit the application. So that horrid card that I'm calling 'Card-B' has on it battery backed RAM memory for machine parameters, an interface for the probe, and a bus highway driver to a remote set of I/O mainly hidden under the controller in the MPG and I/O crate"

Is that English? I have no idea what you are talking about.
I was brought up making cardboard boxes, they're a lot easier for me to understand than electronics, but I am still enjoying the story. :beer:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: AdeV on June 13, 2018, 02:52:22 PM
Is that English? I have no idea what you are talking about.

hehe, tech speak is a bit of a language all to itself...

I understand most of it, not sure what an MPG is (that was always Miles Per Gallon to me...), but I'm sure there's a perfectly rational alternative  :scratch:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 03:03:33 PM
Manual Pulse Generator. A twiddle knob with an encoder on the back to allow manual driving of the axis when not under CNC control

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: NormanV on June 13, 2018, 03:23:40 PM
Manual Pulse Generator. A twiddle knob with an encoder on the back to allow manual driving of the axis when not under CNC control
Oh, that's ok then.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: nrml on June 13, 2018, 03:24:12 PM
With the boards appearing to use through hole components, wouldn't it be relatively straightforward (but tedious) job to replace the individual components that are damaged and salvage it if an identical replacement sub unit can't be found?

I presume the battery on the replacement board will be remotely mounted for safety and easier access.   
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 03:38:22 PM
Yes quite feasible. The problem comes if the electrolyte from the battery has destroyed any of the copper traces.

I suspect if I were brave, a good wash in hot water might dissolve a lot of it, and where rust has been washed down a card, a light brushing of citric acid to remove the Fe2O3, but I'm not sure what effect it would have on the tinning on the ic's legs. It also rather depends what's been washed under a chip. Some of the devices are surface mount so no gap but stuff will have crept into the tiny space that must be there.

I've just made an offer to a chap in Germany for one of the battery backed memory cards - problem is it is mounted on a 'Card-B' (my notation) and he is asking rather a lot. My offer is for the sub-card. Fingers crossed - you never know he may accept.

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: nrml on June 13, 2018, 03:42:54 PM
How about ultrasonic cleaning with distilled water?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 03:55:45 PM
They might end up going through the domestic dishwasher  :lol:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Pete. on June 13, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
Washing it might work, the trouble is you don't know how long for.

A few weeks ago a guy at work spilt a whole large cup of coffee onto his gaming laptop. He took it to a repair shop and they pronounced it non-repairable, all it had was a single red flashing led when you tried to power it. They couldn't even get it started to allow him to recover files plus the keyboard was integrated into the chassis so that was non-removable too and obviously full of dried-up sticky coffee.
I carefully pulled off all the keys and popped all the plastic moulding pins to get the coffee out of the keyboard, but the board still would not start. In desperation I washed it (the motherboard) in the kitchen sink by squeezing out a sponge wetted with very hot water and scrubbing the whole board off with the damp sponge, then I left it under a heat lamp to dry. After that it fired right up, and it is still running weeks later, though it does tend to get hotter than it did before.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 13, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
Years ago we took on the support of all Eastern Electricity Board's white goods distribution system - loads of terminals in shops and offices.

We used to put their faulty keyboards through the dishwasher, taking them out after the rinse but before the dry cycle. They then went into the equivalent of an airing cupboard for a few days. The vast majority worked after this treatment  :thumbup:

(I learnt this trick during recruitment interviews - I'd placed a 'staff wanted' advert in the paper in the town where the previous maintainer was based, and of course attracted several of their employees. More than one of them revealed this trick, which we shamelessly copied  :clap: )

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: seadog on June 13, 2018, 04:50:30 PM
I used to do the same with DEC VT220 keyboards. That, and repairing the silver track on mylar which, due to a design 'fault' used to rub through. RS silver loaded paint was an excellent product.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: PK on June 13, 2018, 06:29:59 PM
I suspect if I were brave, a good wash in hot water might dissolve a lot of it, and where rust has been washed down a card, a light brushing of citric acid to remove the Fe2O3, but I'm not sure what effect it would have on the tinning on the ic's legs. It also rather depends what's been washed under a chip. Some of the devices are surface mount so no gap but stuff will have crept into the tiny space that must be there.
Isopropyl alcohol is the go to solvent for 'first go' cleaning of things in the electronics business. Toothbrushes and ultrasonic cleaners work about as well as each other. Anything that's going to chemically react with corroded metal is going to react with the tinned leads.

Glad to hear you found a replacement board.  If you get REALLY stuck, it is possible to re manufacture a board, we've done it before for a customer who just couldn't sort the problem out any other way.  If it's only a two layer board then that's a bit easier as you can trace the layout with a scanner after floating the parts off in a solder bath.  Anyhow, hopefully you won't need to go that far.

PK
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 14, 2018, 03:58:40 AM
We have company for lunch today so no real play time having done the animals, but I did manage to draw up a sheet metal 'Shelf' in Autocad to replace that bit of aluminium that I'd previously balanced on the bars.

Drawn in Autocad, saved as a .DXF, imported to SheetCAM, ported to MACH3 and cut out of 2 mm Zintec steel on the CNC Plasma Table  then bent on the Edwards Box & Pan folder- the Plasma table certainly makes this sort of thing so much easier.

It sits nicely but some how I want to bolt it to the bars, so when they are withdrawn it stays as a single unit, but I want to preserve the undrilled top surface - might need to break out my stud welder and see how accurately I can place studs  - I can see it will be useful for paper work at the monitor when it's original purpose of removing and replacing the controller is done with  :thumbup:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 14, 2018, 11:21:58 AM
Glad to say after a bit of negotiating I've come to a settlement with the German Siemens Sinumerik Card Flogger, and Card-B (my name) and it's daughter memory card are on the way to me - cheeky chappie is charging two set of (expensive) carriage but I bet they arrive in the same box !

It wasn't cheap, but I reckon a better solution than trying to clean up the originals - however I will keep them and perhaps have a go in the future.

Still need to clean up the I/O crate (not got it out yet!) and also try and get the rust off the main controller crate. I may try masking it and using my 'spot sand blaster'
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 14, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
So I got a little time this evening when guests had departed to fix the shelf and bars together. I drilled the bars 6 mm and counter-bored them 1/2" so that nothing sticks downwards under the bar to catch you out, and a hex socket will fit in the recess.

Then mounting the shelf and wiggling it into the centre of its movement latitude I marked though the holes with a Sharpie, and then gave the marks a decent sized centre pop.

Digging out my Stud Welder (*) I did a few test firings to prove my settings then  I located the pip in the M5 x 18 mm studs I was using in the centre pops and fixed four studs. Amazingly they fitted the bars, and being 18 mm they don't protrude below the 3/4" bars.

. . . so objective achieved - an unblemished upper surface and the bars and shelf now together as a unit  :thumbup:

The Stud Welder can go back to bed for another long sleep  :ddb:



* https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,10287.0.html
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 07:24:46 AM
Today's task: Get the Input / Output crate out and find how extensive the damage is.

Access a bit tricky - have to go through where the Manual Control Panel mounts - so that has to be removed first. I twisted the cable ident labels so hopefully I can see them in my pictures and get them back in the correct places  :ddb:

I took many more pictures of the wiring but they are BORING !
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 07:34:06 AM
Now with the panel out of the way I can reach in and unscrew the four mounting screws for an L shaped mounting bracket obviously made by Beaver rather than Siemens - it's the white bit.

Usual thing - three screws no problem, but the fourth was rusted solid. A candidate for drilling as the bit it goes into won't take heavy hammering. Placing a rare earth magnet next to it to catch the swarf I drilled it out, constantly checking drill depth as if this blind hole were extended too far it would go into the tailstock end inners of the machine that will be awash with coolant (hopefully some time!)

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 07:38:34 AM
Then it was a case of disconnection of the cable forms but labelling them up first. All came off nicely except one that had a screen earth on a screw tag that was inaccessible without removing the top cover - time to drill a hole I think  :lol:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 07:44:25 AM
So now I can put the I/O unit on the desk and dismantle it to see how extensive the damage is and identify the card part numbers.

Now actually the physical damage is not too bad to the inner IO card - I'm sure it could be recovered, but finding one on the ubiquitous eBay for only 35 including postage it seems silly not to replace rather than try a repair
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 07:51:04 AM
But the corrosion damage to the metal work was actually worse than I thought. No issue, it can all be  grit blasted and painted and will be fine . .


 . . .EXCEPT . . the fellow on ebay flogging the I/O card had another offering of the sheradised metal panel AND the umbilical cord with connectors both ends, that was so badly corroded at the controller end - so an excellent result (if all the cards work!)

I grit blasted the Beaver made white panel and have re-sprayed it to await the other bits to fix to it.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vtsteam on June 15, 2018, 08:56:03 AM
Excellent progress so far Andrew. Feels good seeing something being properly restored from an internal disaster.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 12:21:54 PM
Thanks Steve.

Until the bits arrive there will be little more progress but this afternoon I've re-glued the corner of the Control Panel that was broken (not me gov!) and started sorting the corrosion on the card cage.

The rusty retainer with a sheared bolt in it I was able to remove by drilling out four pop rivets - then it could be grit blasted, the sheared screw drilled out and the hole re-tapped, and then the lot got a light coat of zinc spray before being re-rivetted. Note how I insert ALL the rivets before setting any to ensure that the location stays OK

The card guide bar, which is alloy, is more of a problem and I think I'll need to source a replacement. There are two sheared off screws in the square nuts that are supposed to slide in the extrusion - but they don't. The plastic of the guides themselves is very brittle and two have broken retainer pegs, and the bar itself is badly corroded.

Do any on you recognise the rack system to help sourcing a bit of extrusion and some guides - there is a logo in the molding of the guides, I recognize it but cannot recall who's  it is - can YOU help ??

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 12:25:02 PM
DOH - it's Siemens  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 12:45:09 PM
On reflection, although I'd prefer to replace the extrusion, as a fall back , and if I can bully the current captive nuts out and down the extrusion, all I need do having cleaned it up, is make a length of tapped flat bar to slide in. 7.5 mm x  3 mm tapped every 20 mm  nine times. There are two unused card slots, so I can steal their guides to replace the ones with broken retainers.


. . . now where is my 7.5 mm x 3 mm flat bar stored  :scratch:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: tom osselton on June 15, 2018, 03:59:53 PM
On reflection, although I'd prefer to replace the extrusion, as a fall back , and if I can bully the current captive nuts out and down the extrusion, all I need do having cleaned it up, is make a length of tapped flat bar to slide in. 7.5 mm x  3 mm tapped every 20 mm  nine times. There are two unused card slots, so I can steal their guides to replace the ones with broken retainers.


. . . now where is my 7.5 mm x 3 mm flat bar stored  :scratch:
you mean this guiderail?
https://www.partsfinder.com/parts/siemens-medical-solutions/1097492
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 05:11:45 PM
Interesting - I've registered and am awaiting a quote ! So how do I find the extrusion that the guides fit ?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 15, 2018, 06:05:48 PM
Had the reply and Parts Source are saying that they can't ship internationally  :bang:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vintageandclassicrepairs on June 15, 2018, 07:34:04 PM
Hi Andrew,
Maybe one of the forum members in the supplying country (is it USA?) would step up and
buy the parts and post them on to you??

John
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: seadog on June 16, 2018, 03:29:31 AM
Andrew, I will be in Seattle for three nights in July, the first to the fourth. Maybe something can be arranged.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 16, 2018, 06:43:41 AM
Seadog that is extremely kind, but I think I'm now sorted as the following paragraphs will show  :thumbup:

I was determined today to try and clean up the bar extrusion and see if I could remove the corroded nuts and make a tapped bar to slide in in  their place. It turns out that the orange plastic bit is one continuous bit rather than one per nut as I had thought. A bit of brutality got it and the nuts out, and I attacked the extrusion with a file followed by a wire wheel.

There is a big chunk dissolved away by the leaking battery, but it's not affecting the functionality and actually it cleaned up pretty well. I hunted around in my scrap brass box and the only suitable thickness that I had was one leg of a bit of angle that was barely long enough -but you use what you have. Being angle made holding it for drilling and tapping easier than had it been already a correct sized strip.

So this got  marked up, centre drilled, tapping drilled and tapped M4 under power

The hole spacing is 20 mm EXCEPT for the one at the far end which is 15 mm - this nearly tripped me up, but luckily I spotted it just at the last moment. Anyway - offer it up for a reality check - yes it looks about right  :thumbup:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 16, 2018, 06:55:22 AM
Then to slit it off the parent angle - I never like using slitting saws, but this went OK, but I made sure it was a very rigid set up. Setting the height of the saw blade I cheated and offered up one of the original square nuts - made life so much easier.

This was followed by a bit of a clean up, then I slid it into the extrusion and re-mounted the extrusion to the card cage.

PCB Guides:  Two were beyond use, their location pins having broken off when they came out, BUT three slots in the cage are not used, so the obvious solution is to steal their guides  :clap:

Popped the required guides into the relevant places, and did a trial insertion of the cards which went well and everything fits nicely.

(I couldn't bring myself to put the card with the leaking battery back !)

So now cosmetically it all looks a lot better than it did - look at the last picture to see how it was
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: seadog on June 16, 2018, 09:20:21 AM
Ok Andrew. Glad you sorted it.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 16, 2018, 01:13:20 PM
So in that frustrating time 'waiting for bits to arrive' I've been poking around familiarising myself with the various cabinets of contactors, relays, and axis drives - it all looks fairly sensibly laid out and even without drawings it doesn't look too bad to find my way around.

I've investigated the possibility of 'Powered Tooling' being mounted in the tool turret, and sure enough the facility is there - the selected tool gets lined up and has a simple 8 segment dog clutch on the rear of the VDI40 mounting spigot, that engages with it's opposite number on the tool drive

Pulling the monitor apart it turns out that it is a colour one - or at least the drive signals entering it are marked as 'H V R G B' and researching the controller, one of the memory cards is only fitted when a colour monitor is fitted. Seller thought it was green phosphor only so this is a bonus. Not that I'm much closer to seeing anything on the screen !

As well as the mechanical Tool Probe, it looks as though at one time it has been equipped with an optically coupled probe, presumably mounted in a tool port on the turret. The clue is that there is an optical sender / receiver mounted on the same plane as the Renishawe Tool Probe socket. No sign of the actual optical probe though.

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 17, 2018, 01:11:54 PM
A little bit more progress today:

I wanted to prove the PSU was OK but only the +5 volt output had test points. I was fairly sure that it also was supposed to put out +15 v and -15 v.  Pulling the PSU apart it's only output connector is a three row  96 pin Eurocard type. I was surprised to find that mains for the 240 volt rack fans is routed via this connector. Inside I found a pair of 15 volt regulators confirming my suspicion, and also a Ferranti Uncommitted Logic Array - in a PSU for goodness sake WHY ?

Soldering a pair of 'wire wrap' square gold plated pins to my test probes I was able go along the crate back board and find the 15 volt lines powered up, so that's looking good.

Then I turned my attention to some of the card retaining screws that had sheared off. They are M4 but have an extended outer part with a hand grip, and a turned down section to retain them in the card. Drilling tapping and Loctiting replaced the sheered threads.

Then it was a case of 'hunt the battery' The one in the back of the monitor was easy - it's an SL2770 and RS Components carry it. However the one on the little RAM card proved more elusive. The original is in far too bad a shape to take reliable measurements from, but eventually I found an image on the web that revealed all - it's an SL886. There are two versions, one with pins and one with pads, and the original and the image I found don't help the diagnosis, so I will wait until the replacement card arrives to see which before I order.

Strangely the data sheet for the SL886 give it's weight as 21 grams, and my ruptured one weighs EXACTLY 21 grams despite all that death and destruction that it has oozed  :scratch:

Apart from posting pleas for help on Practical Machinist and CNC Zone that's about it for today.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: PekkaNF on June 17, 2018, 02:30:29 PM
.....
I wanted to prove the PSU was OK but only the +5 volt output had test points. I was fairly sure that it also was supposed to put out +15 v and -15 v.  Pulling the PSU apart it's only output connector is a three row  96 pin Eurocard type. I was surprised to find that mains for the 240 volt rack fans is routed via this connector. Inside I found a pair of 15 volt regulators confirming my suspicion, and also a Ferranti Uncommitted Logic Array - in a PSU for goodness sake WHY ?
....

If my memory serves right S5 135/150 series simens PLC rack had somewhat similar looking PSU module. I once had trouble with it. I was chasing non responsive CPU-card, when in fact the problem was "power good" sort of signal from PSU module. There were some handshake signals with busscontroller card/cpu/psu, it was not clear without consulting the technical manual, which we luckily had. If I remember right cpu had enough power to do post startup check and then fiqure out not to talk to bus, because status from PSU was not correct. It was all pretty odd to have some "logic" on the PSU, you might think that it just posts "power good" and that's it.

Not sure if this is relevant, but that was my personal encounter.

Pekka
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 17, 2018, 04:39:01 PM
Pekka,

There is a  pair of external terminals on the PSU labelled "Power Supply OK" - they are not connected, but of course may also be routed internally to the backboard of the logic crate. They seem to be a N/O relay contact that closes a second or two after the PSU is powered up. Certainly they change state when the 'Reset' button on the PSU is pressed then revert to the closed state after a second.

Of course I have no idea whether relay open or closed is the good state, but as with no mains they are 'open', the likelihood is that 'closed' is 'OK'
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: PekkaNF on June 17, 2018, 05:33:31 PM
Those PSU external contacts are normally routed to big red light on the control cabinet and to maintanance system to tell maintenace dude to change the filters..or check esternal cooling air system. Think that overheating and some other stuff trips them. There were more signals on the bus. But that was in S5 industrial PLC, just earlier noticed that much of hardware and numbers looks pretty much the same I was used to see - long time ago.

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Pete W. on June 18, 2018, 05:48:39 AM
Andrew,

I've just been catching up on this thread, reading back to page 2 where you write about battery leaks.  I have some battery holders for AA size lithium batteries (as used on old Mac computers).  I also have a few of the batteries as well (unused but they've been on the shelf for a few years).  If they'd be any help to you I happily put some in the Post.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 18, 2018, 07:17:47 AM
Pete that is an extremely kind offer, but these are very high capacity units. The cylindrical one is 8 ampere hours with a 10 year life expectancy so I don't think 1/2 AA would cut it in this instance.

I am going eventually to re-mount the batteries in a more accessible place, but will use the same type as original, and probably install capacitors across the leads where the batteries currently are to guard against stray pick up of noise.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 18, 2018, 03:43:03 PM
This is the coolant tank that slides under the machine and catches coolant from above. A pipe to a self priming pump sucks it back up and squirts it about at a great rate of knots.

Previous owner had left it outside to rust so it needs grit blasting and then spraying. Suggestions please for a suitable oil proof paint that will stand total immersion  for long periods.

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: DICKEYBIRD on June 18, 2018, 06:42:25 PM
TSuggestions please for a suitable oil proof paint that will stand total immersion  for long periods.
POR15 gas tank sealer maybe?  I used some of their rust paint on a rusty Ford floor pan & it did very well.  Dries glass-hard & seems to be very inert.  I would think their gas tank sealer would be even better.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: WeldingRod on June 18, 2018, 08:37:51 PM
Truck bed liner.  Make sure they heat it before applying.  My father in law made a mobile steel pool lined with the stuff 10+ years ago.  Still going strong!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 05:41:02 AM
I realised that getting the coolant tank where it needs to be might be a bit of an issue, as the workshop is a bit cramped now (!) so I made up a bit of wood to act as an analogue of the tank  - much easier and lighter to manipulate - and in fact there is no problem.

But crawling on hands and knees to see if there was enough vertical clearance to put the tank on rollers (there may be) I made a DISCOVERY . There is a further big panel that can be removed at the back of the lathe (it's about 1 metre square) that I had previously missed. Taking it off it revealed that the original top of the coolant tank has been stuffed in there along with the coolant pick up and pump - just as well I found it before anything starts moving as the pipes are laying on the Z ballscrew. BTW the Z servo motor is HUGE !

Being able to get my head in the back of the machine here has let me have a better look at a mystery louvred metal box fixed on the rear of the axis drive amplifier cabinet. It's 15" wide x 9" deep  x 20" tall, has a single umbilical cord of Adaptaflex trunking going into it and absolutely no markings what so ever. I suspect that it houses a transformer or maybe from the shape several transformers  :scratch: Perhaps I'll be able to open it up sometime.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Pete W. on June 19, 2018, 09:28:20 AM
Pete that is an extremely kind offer, but these are very high capacity units. The cylindrical one is 8 ampere hours with a 10 year life expectancy so I don't think 1/2 AA would cut it in this instance.

I am going eventually to re-mount the batteries in a more accessible place, but will use the same type as original, and probably install capacitors across the leads where the batteries currently are to guard against stray pick up of noise.
 

Fair enough.  I've just looked up the capacity of the AA size lithium batteries and it seems to be only 1.2 Amp hours. 
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 11:19:09 AM
The nice man from UPS (Jock) came in after lunch with a parcel from Germany containing the replacement I/O card, Sheradised mounting plate and Umbilical cord that connects the Sinumerik 820T controller to the remote I/O unit. All second hand but looking in excellent condition
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 11:24:03 AM
So with no more ado I marked up the new items with the arbitrary numbers I had put on the old as I removed them, checked the jumper settings on the card and started re-assembling the I/O sub assembly.

It looks slightly better than it did  :ddb:
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 11:29:18 AM
Then when I escaped from some neighbours who had dropped in for tea (excuse - I need to feed the pigs !) I was able to start putting that mad octopus tangle of cables back hopefully where they came from and re-fit the I/O sub-assembly from whence it came.

Apart from bally inaccessible screws it went well. I could then start re-wiring the Control Panel ready for re-fitting
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 11:36:00 AM
Now the corrosive fluid managed to put a drip or two on the 9 pin 'D-Type' plug and socket for the MPG Encoder - I've opened up the cable mounted socket and there was not much there to clean out - mainly just external - I've not opened the Euchner Encoder - I'll leave well alone unless it proves not to work when finally I get everything back together.

I've put the Control Panel back in place, but only with three screws - pushing my luck I suspect to 'assume' all is well in there


. . .that brings me to the end of the first week of working on the Beaver Lathe, and I think quite a lot has been achieved. But a long way to go yet I suspect before it's back up and running.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Pete. on June 19, 2018, 02:55:34 PM
Just goes to show you that something that looks on the outside to be a very nicely kept machine can hide a whole host of problems.

Is all that damage from one little failed battery Andrew or is there another source for the corrosion?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 03:31:10 PM
Just one 8 ampere hour 3.6 volt Lithium Thionyl Chloride  primary battery Pete, but left for best part of ten years to  ooze and rot. :bugeye:

So as I'm going to have to wait a week or so for the Interface card and it's RAM Daughter Board to show up I thought that I might as well set the Coolant Tank up de-rusting with citric acid.

First I gave it a good thumping and scraping to shift as much loose rust as possible. Tipping out the loose made quite a pile. Then I blew it out with an airline, and set it up on 'builders trestles' strategically close to a drain and very carefully levelled it.

Then came bucket after bucket of hot citric acid, filling it until there was a meniscus visible so that hopefully the underside of the top surface will be wetted as well.

At least this has shown that there are no pin holes (YET!)

Covers over it over night to stop any wild life drinking it and dying  :bugeye:

No doubt it's going to take quite some time to have it's beneficial effect, meanwhile I can try and decide on a paint treatment that is affordable (large tank this!) and effective.

POR15 would be nice as would Glyptal but either would bankrupt me. The other suggestion has been marine quality two pack epoxy paint
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: chipenter on June 19, 2018, 04:09:25 PM
Two pack car paint stands up to a lot nowadays and is available everywhere .
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 04:22:24 PM
But doesn't it need extensive air fed masks etc?
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2018, 05:05:47 PM
But doesn't it need extensive air fed masks etc?

It depends on whether you're sensitive to cyanoacrylates... apparently you can cheerfully paint away with 2-pack until one day your lungs pack in... or you can avoid the danger & use air-fed masks, etc., as you say.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: Will_D on June 19, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
You've just re-furbed your hydrovane - so no shortage of air!!

Seriously though:

2 pack car paints sprayed in a sealed spray booth need an air fed mask.

Spray outside, be upwind of the painted object?

I used 2 pack brushed yacht paints (International 2 pack) with no problems. Am sure this could be sprayed without too much problem.

A lot depends on the chemistry of the two pack products!  AFAIK Aralidite does NOT contain a breathing vapors health warning

HTH Will

PS: More pig info/pics please
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 05:23:50 PM
According to the HSE vehicle paint sprayers have 90 times the chance of asthma than non sprayers:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htm


Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vintageandclassicrepairs on June 19, 2018, 05:51:26 PM
Hi Andrew,
Would galvanising the tank be an option?
The last lot of hot dipping I got done was very good value

John
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2018, 06:01:41 PM
It would be an excellent solution but probably pretty expensive, I'll ask around
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: mc on June 19, 2018, 06:24:39 PM
I knew POR prices had gone up, but never realised they're now that expensive.

My thoughts would be to speak to an industrial paint supplier, as they should have knowledge on what will withstand oils/coolants.
A quick google for milling machine paint, just threw up http://www.paragonpaints.co.uk/home.php
Certainly better priced than POR stuff, but probably worth a call.



PS you've obviously got too much spare time to do all these projects!
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vtsteam on June 19, 2018, 09:27:07 PM
Hate to say this amidst the high tech solutions, but here, I'd just brush on some Rust-Oleum. I bulit a 13 foot by 4 foot shared coolant tank for two Fadal CNC mills this winter and added a centrifugal cleaner to remove the glass fines (these mills are used for diamond coring thin film coated glass). The coolant used is full oil, not soluble oil. And yes, I brushed it after fabricating, with less than a quart of Rust-Oleum. About $7, U.S. Been going 6 months so far. Paint is as new.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 20, 2018, 03:04:19 AM
That's very interesting Steve. They offer something here called 'combicolour' that sounds good, but whether it is the same formulation that is sold in the US I don't know, I'll give them a call today.

Whatever I use I'm coming to the conclusion I'll have to cut open the top panel of the tank to get proper access. Then a bit of redesign to refit a top.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 20, 2018, 06:41:07 AM
Well I've gone with the Rust-Oleum Combi-Color (spelt the American way so maybe it IS the same formulation) in a tasteful  'Steel Grey Satin' not that the colour matters a jot as it's hidden under the machine!

Thanks for the suggestion Steve  :thumbup:

The citric acid seems to be doing a good job, after a day or two I'll drain it down and see if any of the old paint is still sticking wants to come off with a scraper.

Meanwhile knowing that most chemical reactions work faster when warm I've set up a radiant propane heater playing on the tank. Be far better were it pointing upwards from underneath, but you use what you have!
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: awemawson on June 20, 2018, 07:20:15 AM
Come on Andrew - we are Mad Modders - MODIFY it  :lol:

A quick removal of the heating head (hold with pliers - still VERY hot) , balance on a 'JCB to Cambridge Ring Roller Adaptor' , light it up again and we'll soon have those fish boiled  :clap:

Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vtsteam on June 20, 2018, 07:27:32 AM
 Hi Andrew, Rust Oleum here in quart brush style cans is only found in gloss. So I'm guessing your satin stuff is different. Rust Oleum as I know it is a oil based enamel. Word was, in the old days that it contained fish oil. Don't know if that was true. But it was advertised as being suitable for covering rusted steel, iron etc. Always did seem to do well on garden furniture and the like. It comes in spray cans as well, but I have found that the paint coat does not last nearly as well if sprayed. My guess is that it is a different formula.

The brand has now diversified into many disimilar paints, including latexes, and all in one finishes, etc. So it becomes confusing. But the original quart cans of the brush oil enamel is still widely available here, and that's what i use for machinery, or anything else metal in tough service.
Title: Re: The Sequel - Oh Blimey I bought a CNC Lathe (Beaver TC 20)
Post by: vtsteam on June 20, 2018, 07:37:34 AM
There are other oil based enamels here, minor brands, which claim to be good for rusty metal. Probably similar. I don't have much experience with them. Mainly because I'm familiar with R/O, and long term results with it. But likely most any good oil based enamel tor metal will do.