MadModder

The Craftmans Shop => New from Old => Topic started by: AdeV on June 03, 2019, 07:13:05 PM

Title: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 03, 2019, 07:13:05 PM
'ello everyone.  :wave:

You may have noticed that, for the last few months, I've not been posting a lot (stop cheering at the back there!). Well, that's mainly because I started a new job last March, and now my commute is 2hrs each way every day, which leaves me with a lot less shop time than I've had previously; pretty much none at all during the week. Weekends I'm often plagued by visitors - which is great, but not conducive to Getting Things Done. I've also been doing a lot of experimenting with making PCBs recently, which until a couple of weeks ago was causing me serious hair-pulling-out tribulations. But that's for another day...

Anyway, I decided that the best way to get more shop time, would be to have a second shop  :lol: This one will be more "normal" sized for a hobbyist setup, and will live in my garage at home. The theory is... I can do stuff at home during the week on the small machines, and anything I need the big guns for I can do at my normal workshop. It should also mean, once my freshly minted wife is allowed into the country (fingers crossed, soon now), I can get away with spending a bit of time in the garage without having to "go out". We'll see... life has this way of not working out like that... but anyway.

So - first thing, what lathe to buy? Key requirements are: Cheap, one-person-luggable-around, single phase, reasonably popular so spares aren't impossible, and cheap. I eventually settled on a low-end Boxford: I can live without a screwcutting gearbox (got it on the big lathe), and whilst the power crossfeed would be nice, that's not the model I've ended up with. No worries.

So - what I lugged home tonight, and wrestled single-handedly out of the back of the car and onto my garage bench - without even putting my back out, although I'm sure it was a close run thing - is a 1950s Boxford "C" with rear drive. There's only one problem.... this lathe is knackered.

An itemised list of the problems I've discovered so far/can remember:

So, this will be the start of a long journey! My intention is to make this machine work again, and to try to restore it to at least the same level of awesome that awemawson regularly shows us with his machines. This will be the first machine I've actually tried to restore (all the others I've just used out-of-the-box), and - as usual for me, I've bitten off FAR more than I can chew. Just how I like it!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 03, 2019, 07:17:58 PM
The first thing I'll be doing, is taking the whole lathe apart. Partly, because it's really too heavy to keep moving around all in one piece; but mainly because I think I will need to fettle every single bit of it....

The good news is - the bed seems to be sound, and if it is twisted, it's not much. I'll bring my machine level home after the weekend to better check it for twist.

A couple of questions:

Does anyone have a manual for one of these lathes, that they'd be willing to scan/share?
Where does the serial number hide on these things? I'd like to get a better idea of when it was made. Reading between the lines at lathes.co.uk, it seems to be somewhere between 1950 and 1959; a serial no. might give me a clue.

Size wise, it seems to be a 4.5" centre height, 18 or 19" capacity between centres.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: SwarfnStuff on June 04, 2019, 01:28:41 AM
Now That is a challenge / project you have in the garage.
    I'm sure it will keep you, "entertained"? for some time. Cannot help with where the numbers hide as the only Boxfords I've seen are two that were old time
CNC machines. Friends changed all the controls over to new stepper / servo drives.

   These two lathes were in tech schools and rarely used as far as I know.
Good luck with the resurrection job.

John B
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 04, 2019, 02:22:25 AM
Sooner you than me. For someone without too much workshop time you seem to have taken on a huge job. The serial number will be on top of the bed at the right hand end, front shear.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 04, 2019, 02:37:59 AM
Now there's a nice challenge for you Ade, I hope you still have that big bag of Citric Acid!

These things often look far worse than they actually are, and taken one bit at a time are manageable

It sounds like you have a time issue if you are Travelling four hours a day, good luck with that one.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: chipenter on June 04, 2019, 02:44:58 AM
Hears one for when you get round to it  http://www.wswells.com/projects/ed_godwin/crossfeed.pdf there is another for the compound , search for Boxfords know your lathe will help .
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: PekkaNF on June 04, 2019, 03:46:19 AM
WOW.

That should keep you (and us) entertained for a while. Do I need to stock up beef jerky and beer for this spectacle to unfold?

... I've also been doing a lot of experimenting with making PCBs recently, which until a couple of weeks ago was causing me serious hair-pulling-out tribulations. But that's for another day...

That souds really interesting. Maybe another thread?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: RussellT on June 04, 2019, 03:57:09 AM
The back gear lever on the side of the headstock will lock the spindle unless you can also move the lever on the front of the headstock.  Later (much later) Boxfords had a single lever for back gear engagement.

Where did you find this gem.  Maybe they have some other bargains! :lol: :lol:

Russell
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Will_D on June 04, 2019, 05:12:47 AM
I hope you didn't actually have to pay for this lathe :bugeye:.

It does look like a major challenge tho'

Looking forward to the restoration logs. Good luck

Will
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: timby on June 04, 2019, 06:15:49 AM

I hope you didn't actually have to pay for this lathe :bugeye:.



Everything has a value, people buy lathes like the Boxford and then sell the components off as spares.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 12:42:31 PM
Thanks for the replies  :thumbup: If I may address a few specific comments/questions:

Q: "For someone without too much workshop time you seem to have taken on a huge job"
A: Yep! I'm usually getting back to the house at around 7pm. Going to my workshop then involves jumping in the car, driving to it, doing whatever & driving home again. The gates get shut at 8pm, so technically I'd only get about 45 mins there. However, once you're in, they'll let you stay as long as you like... so really it's just a "can't be bothered" thing. Having something right there to keep me entertained means I'm more likely to get on with it.

BTW, thanks for the serial number info. I'll go looking for it tonight. Ironically, I have to go to the proper workshop to pick up my imperial spanners/sockets, and some cleaning chemicals.

Q: I hope you still have that big bag of Citric Acid!
A: I sure do! So long as it hasn't turned itself into lemon juice in the damp shed!!  :lol:

Q: Do I need to stock up beef jerky and beer for this spectacle to unfold?
A: Beef jerky is a good choice - long shelf life!! I expect this one to take a while, but on the other hand I want to get into it ASAP. I wanted a lathe for my garage really, not a project!

I'll definitely do a thread about the PCBs soon. There's some good mad-modding to share!

Q: Hears one for when you get round to it
A: Thanks! Great link, I will be studying it well.

Q: The back gear lever on the side of the headstock will lock the spindle unless you can also move the lever on the front of the headstock.
A: Duh! Oh yeah, now I look marginally more closely at the speed label, I see that the two levers are in lock step. Still - good to know I can lock the spindle, handy for removing the chuck! Although one of the modifications in my mind's eye is a spindle brake attached to a foot pedal, so removing the chuck may be a case of spin it full speed in reverse, then stamp on the brake  :zap:

Q: I hope you didn't actually have to pay for this lathe
A: To my eternal shame, I did. I probably paid well over the odds too - this thing is clinging onto the cliff above the scrapyard by the tip of it's little fingernail. However... I won't let her die! Never! Unless she bites me, in which case all bets are off  :whip:


Q: What colour will you paint it?
A: Good question that no-one asked! Boring Boxford grey? I don't think so! Hammerite blue? Nah, a bit twee. I'm thinking metallic British Racing Green, with some Wimbledon White "go faster" stripes....

As you can see, I have my priorities in order already  :)


Back to reality - first jobs when I get home tonight (after I've picked my spanners up), will be to separate the pulleys and motor from the mounting plate, and if I can get that far, get the mounting plate off the foot. Then I can start measuring up & doing some CAD work, as I think I'm going to fabricate a new foot/motor plate assembly. I'll re-use as much as I can, but I think it's mostly scrap.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 04, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
Ade,

It HAS to be shiny Black Gloss with lining in gold, and make sure that those castings are nicely faired before you start painting  :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 04, 2019, 02:41:34 PM
Still - good to know I can lock the spindle, handy for removing the chuck! Although one of the modifications in my mind's eye is a spindle brake attached to a foot pedal, so removing the chuck may be a case of spin it full speed in reverse, then stamp on the brake  :zap:

Using back gear is something to be undertaken with care. It's very easy to break teeth off.

Go for the spindle brake  :lol:  :hammer:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: RussellT on June 04, 2019, 03:27:25 PM
Ade,

It HAS to be shiny Black Gloss with lining in gold, and make sure that those castings are nicely faired before you start painting  :lol:

JPS Lotus? :nrocks: :nrocks:

Russell
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 04:33:08 PM
Ade,

It HAS to be shiny Black Gloss with lining in gold, and make sure that those castings are nicely faired before you start painting  :lol:

JPS Lotus? :nrocks: :nrocks:


Smokey and the Bandit!  :lol:

There's a chap at work who's a genius at drawing really twisted things - skulls an snakes are frequent doodles... - my warped sense of humour has me imagining "boxford" = "box ford" ="box jellyfish driving a Ford"  :scratch: :scratch:  :loco:  :palm: I might get him to do a small drawing along those lines, to "embellish" the machine somehow  :wack:

Update coming soon, just got some electrical stuff to disconnect...
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 06:24:25 PM
Tonight, the adventure continued...

The lathe came apart surprisingly easily, considering how bad it looked. Then again, many of the fasteners were loose already, suggesting either it was thrown back together just to get rid; or maybe it was put back together badly, we'll never know.  Removing the carriage just needed 4 cap-head screws removing, and it lifted straight off. The apron resisted a little bit, the half-nuts wouldn't quite open far enough; loosening the two bolts that holds the two halves in place gave me the extra few thou of wiggle room to get them shifted. I've not taken any photos of those bits yet, as I've not had a proper look at them. More on them another day.

Removing the headstock had me scratching my head a bit... I could see the nuts easily enough, and I could just get a spanner onto the back one, but the one under the bed? How the hell would I reach that?! Turns out I didn't need to, it was already loose.  :scratch:

So, headstock removed, the leadscrew came off easily (it seems to be in reasonable condition; straight, at least. The bronze bearing at the headstock end is perfect; the one down by the tailstock was a bit dry and grubby, but doesn't seem to have much play. With a bit of luck, some light grease will be all they need.

Inside the headstock there's a load of that moly grease, which has clearly been thrown to the outer casing and doesn't seem to be doing very much useful work. The shaft and pulleys have rust, but it looks superficial. Bonus! I found out why I couldn't move the lever on the front - there's some pins in the gear that engage with holes in the pulley (or vice versa), so obviously it has to be lined up before they'll go in. As soon as I spotted that, the back-gear drive snicked right in. Nice!

After a little perfunctory cleaning, I did find the serial number: DEH3656/1105. I'm not sure what the 1105 signifies; the 3656 number would put the build date, at a guess, somewhere in early 1952. Unfortunately, the lathes.co.uk website stops at #2297 in January 1951, has 3 years of "confused numbering" (including 1950!), and resumes at 4346 in January 1953. That does, however, mean this is a very early machine, and therefore worthy of my best efforts I think. Although that's pretty much the end of the good news....
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 06:29:04 PM
The next step was to test for twist. Now... I don't have a single proper level/flat surface in my garage, but I found a bit of concrete floor to sit the bed on which didn't obviously rock. Using the machinists level, we can clearly see that there's a twist right where the headstock sits. My guess is this happened when it was dropped; I'm now reasonably sure that it's fallen over backwards, landing on the pulley drive plate. More on that momentarily.

So... what to do about that? I'm open to ideas. I may try shimming the headstock when I refit it to try to level it with respect to the rest of the bed (which seems to run straight, as best as I can tell). Or maybe just mounting the headstock on it and clamping the bed down to to a good solid flat surface will allow it to straighten out? Any ideas gratefully received.

If I got the photos in the right order (they're out of sequence slightly), then the measurements are from the tailstock to the headstock in approximately 1/5th intervals. +/- half an imperial brick (3/5ths of a metric brick).
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 06:36:12 PM
So, setting aside the big lumpy bits for a moment, I turned my attention to the motor/countershaft plate.  First, remove the pulley. The mangled piece of metal is the "bracket" that sort of clamped the pulleys down at the rear (and also sort of did nothing - very strange). It's hard to do justice to the awfulness of the welding on that "bracket". That part is definitely for the bin.

The motor is a bog standard Hoover 1/3rd horsepower unit. It's fairly dinged and the bearings are rough. I have another similar motor I may substitute; I'm not sure how to go about restoring a motor yet. The original(?) switch is still in place, albeit I'm sure it's been re-wired. The light (now removed) was on a completely separate plug, and looks like it was added later, although it does look very similar to the light on other Boxford lathes.

So.. I took a few pictures of the wrecked motor/pulley plate... you can see where someone's tried to TIG weld it, made a complete horlicks, then resorted to using steel straps.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 04, 2019, 06:44:15 PM
Suddenly.... DISASTER!  :zap: :zap: :zap:

While attempting to separate the countershaft plate from the foot casting, there was a squishy POP noise, and now the foot casting has completely blown up  :Doh:  :(

Seems there's some crazy strong spring in there somewhere pushing the two parts apart. This would normally help tension the motor belt - but in this case, has blown the front off the foot instead. And I still can't figure out how the shaft is supposed to come out... Please see the very last picture, which is a close-up of what appears to be the works (but how?). I'll probably have to cut the shaft; it's bent anyway, and I can't get the two parts apart without releasing it somehow. Either that, or the knurled nut-like thing on the front may be something to do with it? It looks like it's got cut-outs for a pin hook spanner. The shaft MUST come out through the front face (as it can't pass through the collar with the knurling on it), but how does one detach it from whatever's doing the springing inside the plate? I is confuzed!

Anyway, that's enough damage for one night. I'll take a fresh look at it another day - I have a pin spanner somewhere I could use to try to loosen it, but I need to find some way of clamping down what's left of the foot casting without wrecking it any more (even though it's already in a million pieces).
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: tom osselton on June 04, 2019, 11:38:23 PM
Looks like a bolt holding onto a lever
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: PekkaNF on June 05, 2019, 02:03:32 AM
The next step was to test for twist. Now... I don't have a single proper level/flat surface in my garage, but I found a bit of concrete floor to sit the bed on which didn't obviously rock. Using the machinists level, we can clearly see that there's a twist right where the headstock sits. My guess is this happened when it was dropped; I'm now reasonably sure that it's fallen over backwards, landing on the pulley drive plate. More on that momentarily.

So... what to do about that? I'm open to ideas. I may try shimming the headstock when I refit it to try to level it with respect to the rest of the bed (which seems to run straight, as best as I can tell). Or maybe just mounting the headstock on it and clamping the bed down to to a good solid flat surface will allow it to straighten out? Any ideas gratefully received.

If I got the photos in the right order (they're out of sequence slightly), then the measurements are from the tailstock to the headstock in approximately 1/5th intervals. +/- half an imperial brick (3/5ths of a metric brick).

0,6 mm in standard units of twist over the entire length of the bed? That is not too bad. Those cast lathe beds are actually pretty slender and bendy. When mounted into solid sheet metal welded base or such care must be excercised not to introduce greater twist. I would not try to "straighten" it by bending it energetically, because a) it will not respond to it predictable way, b) it will nnot stay put, c) it will take any shape you will bolt it into.

I would leave it to be something noted and verified after mounting and test run.

Pekka
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: RussellT on June 05, 2019, 05:08:15 AM
Your last picture shows the belt tensioning mechanism.  As far as I know there was a lever on the front of the lathe foot which tensioned the belt to allow speed changes.  The part at the left hand side of the picture looks like a slot to achieve that with a quarter turn of the shaft - so somewhere there should be a pin which engages in that slot which might be the cause of the problem.

Have you thought about replacing all that with a conventional countershaft assembly - Boxford did that before they went under drive.

Russell
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 05, 2019, 05:19:11 AM
3656 is the model number. All of the 4 1/2" Southbend clones use that reference. The serial number is 1105 dating it to 1948, a Very early model - http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/page8.html

Now to read the rest of your posts...

My bed had over 1/8" twist. whilst it was stripped down the twist unwoud and the final twist was adjusted by shimming one of the feet as required.

Try contacting Mark Lord, he has a lot of spares and is reasonably priced, especially if you join the Facebook Boxford group - marklord44@Hotmail.co.uk

He may have a replacement foot.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 05, 2019, 07:01:21 AM
Thanks guys, this is proving incredibly useful!

Pekka - OK, I'll leave the casting alone for now; hopefully, once I've sorted out the headstock foot, it'll be sufficiently flat to pull the casting back into shape. I'm not sure what the graduations mean on that spirit level, other than the usual "keep the bubble between the lines = flat". An imperial brick, BTW, is 2" x 4" x 8" approximately. Metric bricks are a bit smaller...

Russell - Aaah, that makes sense. I think the pin has vanished. There must still be a spring somewhere as there's quite a force pushing outwards. Maybe it's in that knurled collar.

Seadog - I'll get in touch with Mark, thanks. If 1105 really is the serial number, then I suspect the headstock is a replacement; as it's got the 4 V-pulleys, which started with serial# 1791 according to the lathes.co.uk site. I suppose it's possible the info plate was replaced at the same time. Do you happen to know if there's likely to be a serial number anywhere on the headstock casting?

I guess the proof of the pudding will be if it has a Whitworth or US thread form. If it's Whitworth, then it's almost certainly a replacement headstock; if US, then it's had the pulley upgrade.

Interesting times! Again, thanks all for the info so far.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 05, 2019, 07:07:40 AM
A thought occurs to me (that's what the burning smell is  :lol:)

From http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/index.html:

Quote
In January 1950 the flat-belt drive was abandoned, with lathe No. 1791 to become the first fitted with 4-step V-belt drive
...
According to Work's literature seen by the writer, at the same time the tumble-reverse mechanism was altered: the inconvenient and slow-to-change bolted-up arrangement being replaced by a simple, quick-action, spring-loaded plunger design (though it's a fair bet that the change was not immediate and some lathes might have had the old parts fitted).

One oddity, mine has the "inconvenient and slow to change bolted up arrangement"... it would seem unlikely they still had any of those left by 1952/3; but as it now appears to be a 1948 model, that suddenly makes more sense - and points to maybe it having had the V-belt conversion after all...

So... should I try to restore it back to 1948 spec for historical curiosity? Or leave it as is? I think the Black & Gold paint scheme is out of the window though, I'll have to buy another wrecker that's not so old before I get to use non-factory colours.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: chipenter on June 05, 2019, 12:07:12 PM
I don' know about Boxford but South Bend used taper pins all over the lathe .
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 05, 2019, 02:22:51 PM
I'm struggling to think where there is a taper pin on my AUD. Possibly the gearbox, I can't think of anywhere else.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: nrml on June 05, 2019, 02:37:00 PM
Now that you have the lathe completely dismantled, can't you get the base of the feet ground to take out most of the twist?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 05, 2019, 05:41:44 PM
Chipenter - no taper pins so far! Everything's held together with grub screws, cap-head bolts or regular nuts/bolts. I'm sure I'll find some when I come to dismantle the slides.

Nrml - I'm thinking, per Pekka's comment, that I might just ignore it for the time being. Once I strap it down to a base (unfortunately I don't have the original base - it was there, but I couldn't transport it) I'll see what happens. With a bit of luck, it'll pull itself back into shape without needing any work.

So, on to tonights shennanigans. Only did a bit tonight, I'm knackered! And getting all sorts of aches and twinges from lumping all these heavy, er, lumps around.

First up, I figured I'd have one last look at the countershaft/motor plate/headstock foot, to see if I couldn't wrangle the buggers free. And what do you know? It just slid right out!! The GT85 penetrating fluid I'm using in lieu of WD40 must have quietly done its work over the last 24 hours.

With the foot now separated from the base plate, I can see that the weird bit is, indeed, a "screw" of sorts. There's supposed to be a protruding lump on the shaft (it's missing) which engages in the slot. Twisting the lever 1/4 turn would thus push the motor plate out about 3/4" (very approx measurements, based entirely on guesswork at this point), which I assume is enough to swap the belt to a different set of pulleys.

Photo 35 shows you just how badly bent that shaft is. I tried to remove it through the foot casting, but it won't go. A rub down with some emery cloth might be enough to get the job done, if not, I'll cut the end off it. However, I'd quite like to extract it whole if I can, so I can take measurements to turn up a replacement. Photo 36 shows the hole where the knob would have gone, which then engages in the slot in the "quick screw" device (visible in the previous pic, and also the last pic in the last update post I wrote). This has to handle the belt tension, so it would need to be fairly strong. Hasn't stopped it escaping though!

So, having got that far, I need some emery, a pin spanner, and more time for the penetrating oil to make it all slippy, to go any further, so I set that aside and tackled the pulley carrier. I didn't take any pictures of disassembly, it all went with dreary ease. Finally I was down to just the bearing holding the pulleys. This bearing is ruined:



However, I should be able to press it off the shaft easily enough, and press on a replacement. The numbers are on the other side, though, so I have to remove it before I will know what to get! That'll be a job for the weekend. Pic 37 shows the offending item, although I could have sworn I'd taken the bearing cover off before I took the picture  :scratch:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 05, 2019, 05:55:24 PM
So finally tonight, I had a bit of a poke around the headstock. Removing the "inconvenient and slow to change bolted up" tumble reverse was a doddle, it slipped out smooth as silk. A little playing around got the back gear running just fine (the lever can be pushed too far, which over-meshes the gears and locks everything up. I suspect there should be a stop somewhere, but it's either broken, or missing, or it's supposed to be the operator's skill that does it... am unsure. The main front bearing is just fine (pics 38, 39).

Further evidence that this really IS one of the very early lathes is on the bearings - the inner race is marked "2788", just like the Lathes.co.uk site said it would be, if it were an early machine. These are, apparently, the more expensive bearings (typical!). Fortunately, it was packed full of old, but still greasy grease, and it's silent and smooth when turning, so I think there's life in the old dog yet. I'd wiped most of the grease away for the picture.

The bearings on the back-gear shaft are another story, they're quite rough. Hopefully they're just fairly ordinary ball bearings. Once I get the shaft out, I'll take a look. I'm not yet sure how to do that...

I couldn't get the back cover off the rear bearing, I think it's stuck on with old paint. I'll have a go at running a knife around the edge of it another day. Pic 39, boring as it is, shows where I got to. I had a go at removing the front lever, but it's stuck on tight. I don't know if it just needs some of the magic penetrating oil, or if there's more to it than just a grub screw.

Looks like I'll need a C pin spanner at the very least to undo the spindle assembly to disassemble further.

Now... if it really is an early machine, and all the evidence except for the pulleys, which should be flat belt pulleys, and the speed chart on the front (which is correct for the 4-speed pulley), that means it's got the exact same spindle as a South Bend (60 degree thread form) instead of the more usual Whitworth (55 degree). So if I ever want more chucks for this thing, I'll have to buy old South Bend stuff from the States. The gift that just keeps on giving  :palm:


A question for you: What's the best way to shift old moly grease? Dissolve in petrol (gasoline) & wash it out? Dissolve in something else? Take it a long way outside, near to someone you don't like, and blast it with high pressure air?  :wack: Best idea wins a cup of tea, which I will drink on your behalf. Or coffee, if you prefer.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Jim Dobson on June 05, 2019, 06:35:11 PM
Nice restoration!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 05, 2019, 06:53:27 PM
There is a spring detent on the rear lever end of the spindle.

Unless it changed, the back gear runs on plain bushes. You need to remove the bolt and washer on the right hand side of the shaft, slacken the (non-existant?) detent (grub screw on the underside of the casting), and then draw the spindle out. There are spacer washers inside between the gear and the casting.

Slacken the front lever screw and tap it with a soft-faced mallet, it should start to move.

If it is a unified thread form you might be able to shave it with a chaser. There's not a great deal to remove. Remember the chuck location is purely from the plain register behind the thread. The thread's only purpose is to hold the chuck on the spindle.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: nrml on June 06, 2019, 08:27:40 AM
I use paraffin to wash out old  grease. It is cheap, doesn't fill the room with nasty fumes as quickly and is less of a fire hazard than solvents.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: chipenter on June 06, 2019, 10:25:45 AM
The South Bend register is 1.509" all the Boxford face plates I bought for mine needed enlarging , so you might have to recut the threads .
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Will_D on June 06, 2019, 04:24:33 PM
Talking of English lathe's quality, check this out:



At 13:20 or so: under water induction hardening of the gear teeth: Awesome!!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 06, 2019, 04:45:15 PM
Just a quick update tonight: It turns out that staying up until 1-2am, then getting up again at 6, and expecting to do a decent day's work in between, is a young man's game...  :Doh: So tonight, I'm retiring to my pit early...

So: Jim - thanks! But reserve judgement until I've finished... It might all still go horribly wrong!

Seadog - again, thanks! I actually found the detent ball, not sure if it was in there all along and just fell out when I removed the handle, or whether it'd fallen out a while back and was embedded in the grease  :scratch: I put the handle back in after taking the shaft out, and it makes a lovely "click" at either end of its travel now - but it seems unlikely the ball has sat in the grease this long without disappearing, so I'm none the wiser. No sign of any spacers on the shaft, unless you mean the big eccentric mounts. There was a good 1/8" to 3/16" of longitudinal  movement in the back gears, so maybe the washer is missing. It'll be easy enough to turn up a little spacer to go in there.  I didn't get the front lever off, I think I'll clean up the insides of the headstock first, so I can see what's going on on the other side.

Finally, I took a quick look at the apron; nothing untoward there, it's pretty simple, with just the half nut and the threading dial and the carriage handle/gear. The half-nut works exactly as expected. If you recall, I was concerned about backlash in the carriage wheel. Turns out, most of what I was feeling was actually the handle moving on its shaft, like it's a "D" shaped shaft with a bunch of wear in it. Then there's also the driver cog, which is quite worn, and has a little movement within the driven cog. So a new cog, and whatever I need to do to rectify that shaft wear, should result in a nice tight carriage handle (what's it called? Somehow that doesn't feel like the right name).

There's only a couple of pics from tonight and they're still on my phone, I'll extract and add them to this post tomorrow. they're not very exciting anyway.

Last comments: I'm going to keep the spindle nose original, I think; unless it's already been done. It came with 3 chucks and a faceplate, which seems like plenty to me. If they work properly that is....

nrml: Paraffin, I'll give that a go, I have some kicking around. I've got a few other solvents and nasties about as well, so something ought to work!

Chipenter: I just measured my spindle register, and it's coming in at exactly 1.4985ish on the verniers. I'll need to mike it to be completely sure, but I'd say it's pretty close to bob on 1.5". Interesting the SB should be 10 thou bigger - maybe you've just got a big nose? :ddb: :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 06, 2019, 06:10:32 PM
No sign of any spacers on the shaft, unless you mean the big eccentric mounts. There was a good 1/8" to 3/16" of longitudinal  movement in the back gears, so maybe the washer is missing.

I'm sure there should be a thrust washer at each end. However, I can't see them in the parts list. There shouldn't be any appreciable float in the back gear.

BTW, if you're not aware of it, this is the link to the Boxford spares pages. Most of the engineering drawings are quite poor quality.

http://www.boxford-software.com/spares/3656menu.html
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: chipenter on June 07, 2019, 01:50:10 AM
No the spindle register is 1,509" spec ,
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 07, 2019, 07:05:48 PM
Thanks for another great link Seadog, much appreciated.  :thumbup: Some of their bits are a bit pricey though - 68 for the carriage handwheel pinion!! I think I'll make one...

Anyway, tonight I decided to tackle the tailstock. This was completely seized, with a dead centre firmly rusted into it. However, after liberal applications of GT85, I managed to get the handwheel off. So that was a good start... The back also came off fairly easily, once the two retaining grub screws were removed, allowing me to squirt a load more GT85 down the back. This was enough (when the handwheel was re-fitted) to break the leaadscrew thread loose. Interestingly, it's not an ACME thread, but just a normal thread. Possibly a Whitworth, but it may also be a UNC. The bronze nut has, unsurprisingly, got considerable wear, so a new one will have to be made. That shouldn't be a problem, once I extract it from the barrel. I don't have the tools here to do that without marring the leadscrew shaft, so that's a job for the real workshop tomorrow. After filling the backside with more penetrating oil, and clamping the rusty dead centre in the vice, a few gentle twists broke it loose. After that, a socket extension bar proved to be the perfect diameter to tap out the tailstock barrel, With the exception of the last 3/4", which is a bit rusty, it slides remarkably well in the bore. So all in all, I'm happy with that. All I need is a base, and I think I'll make one of those. Unlike most Boxford tailstocks, this one is supposed to have a bolt that protrudes into the central cavity, and is tightened/loosened with a spanner; rather than the usual cam operated mechanism. I plan to make a hex-headed bolt for this which will take a lever, so I get the convenience of not needing to find a spanner, but without having to make any modifications to the original part.

Last up, I took a quicky look at the saddle and slides. These actually look to be in reasonable shape, excepting the dreadful cross slide handle, and some rust on the micrometer dials. There's also the to-be-expected backlash and wear in the screws. With a favourable wind, these will just need new bronze nuts, which I should be able to turn up myself.

So... now I've looked at all of the bits of the lathe, and after the disappointment of the headstock foot/countershaft plate, I have to say, the rest of it doesn't actually look too bad! A bit of rust which hopefully a nice gentle acid bath will address; plenty of clean-up, and the mechanical bits should be good to go. Fixing the foot will be the biggest challenge.... Now that I know this lathe is (mostly) a true survivor from the very very early days, I intend to try to repair the castings. That will be my biggest challenge. Fortunately, my lathe has the aluminium feet rather than the cast iron ones, which will make it conducive to TIG welding.

Tomorrow I'll take the whole machine down to the shed and get it in the parts washer, so hopefully I can see how to dismantle the rest of the headstock. I'd also like to get the saddle apart, and thoroughly clean, press the countershaft bearing off and get a replacement ordered, and maybe turn up a spacer to cure the end float on the back gear.

Just a couple of piccies for you tonight... the exploded tailstock, and the saddle after I found the release for the the top slide & managed to get it spinning.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: allanchrister on June 08, 2019, 03:34:25 AM
a Fantastic project and I wished sometimes I lived in the UK and could go searching for resurrection candidates like this. Unfortunately, Im in Pakistan for 80% of my time, on a major Chinese funded and constructed infrastructure project in the wilds of Kashmir/Punjab. Most of you believe that Chinese equipment is dodgy, well, so is their civil engineering...... :bugeye:

BTW, when I was at college training to be a QS, a standard imperial brick was 9x 4- x 3, so you were close and had the right proportions. The French still measure areas of brickwork in roods, I think. I guess someone is going to be Googling this, but not me.....
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: seadog on June 08, 2019, 04:06:58 AM
Don't believe the prices. I needed a nut for my taper turning attachment. It was shown as 14.44although I see they have updated it to 32. Well, it cost me 41, plus VAT, plus 10 admin, plus P&P. (2018 prices)
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 09, 2019, 04:57:38 PM
Thanks Allen - I wasn't specifically after a restoration project, but I seem to have got one anyway  :doh:  Maybe next time I'll spend a few extra pennies and get a working one!

Anyhow... moving on! As expected, on Saturday I was visited by a plague of locusts visitors, which is not to say they weren't welcome, just distracting... but despite this, I managed to get a bit further with the disassembly. The countershaft is proving to be a bear: I can't shift the pulleys on the shaft, despite the lack of a locking screw, or possibly the locking screw is broken, I'm not sure. And I can't get the bearing out because I can't make the setup work on my press. I'll need to make a jig to hold it such that I can push the shaft off the bearing (and thus out of the countershaft bracket); then I can look to pushing the shaft off the pulleys. That'll have to wait until next week, as I absolutely can't do that without the press.

Today (Sunday) I prepared a 200 litre barrel of citric acid (!), I used about 2/3rds of one bag of acid granules, but I've no idea how strong it really is. It tasted kind of lemony fresh  :lol: and very sharp, so I think I've got it right. Various parts are in there soaking now. I'm pretty sure I can leave them in there all week without doing the metal any harm. Citric acid really isn't that strong after all... is it? Anyone with experience, please speak now if I need to head down there tomorrow night to rescue them. The reason I needed so much? No suitable container for the leadscrew... On the bright side, I should be able to de-rust absolutely anything for the rest of time, without making any more. Shame I didn't have the foresight to put the barrel on a pallet, moving it around will be a nightmare!

I also managed to shift (pardon the pun) the gear shift lever off the front of the headstock. Turns out it just needed a spot of brutalising, and it popped right off. Unscrewing the cover this revealed allowed the eccentric and it's shifter block to slide out very easily.

Next up, tackling that pulley adjustment rod/broken casting. Attacking the rod with a file allowed me to finally withdraw it from the back part of the foot, which I put to one side. Removing the grub screw allowed the strange (more on that in a moment) knurled thing on the front with pin spanner holes in it to move, but it was really REALLY stiff. Eventually I just closed my eyes and used the arbour press to push it out. Which it did... it took a flake of the casting with it, and now I can see how it's gone wrong. I'll take some more photos of that tomorrow, if anyone's interested, with a bit of an explanation. Hats off to the Boxford engineers, though, it's a surprisingly elegant solution to the belt-changing problem, and deserved to last longer on the machine's production run than it did. The good news is, other than the thoroughly bent shaft, all the other bits can be saved and re-used.

So finally today, after an unexpectedly early finish was called due to an offer of a pub dinner, I glued the foot casting back together with some superglue. Obviously, that's not so I can use it like this(!), the idea is, by getting it 99% correct, I can now grind away a few areas with a burr, and TIG-weld the casting back together. I'll start by tacking it in a few places, then over a few days, I'll grind out more and more of the tacks and re-build with the TIG. Eventually, I should end up with a piece that looks original, IS mostly original, and should be more or less as strong as the original. A bit of work with the mill should bring it all back to square and flat. Hopefully, by tackling it bit by bit like this, with small welds and plenty of cool-down time, I'll minimise any distortion. Worst case, I'll have to ream through the existing holes to re-square them with respect to each other, to replace the tensioning shaft.

So... as  :worthless:, please find attached a few photos of the jigsaw I put together earlier.

Tomorrow, I'll do some details on the shaft, and some of the other bits and pieces.

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 10, 2019, 04:07:47 PM
Tonight's episode: Shafted!

So... cast (sorry  :hammer:) your mind back a few days, and I showed you this upside-down picture of the headstock foot (before I completely broke it):

(https://madmodder.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12918.0;attach=46731;image)

Observe, if you will... the central shaft, which (you can almost make out) has a 3/4" hex head at the front (right-hand side), goes through a boss, there's a threaded section, then the shaft continues through the back of the foot and into an elongated boss on the pulley/motor plate. The other two shafts, one of which looks bent (but I don't think it is) carry the weight of the motor/pulley. I'm pretty sure that the "Y" piece at the far end (left) bolts to the bed so the foot isn't actually expected to take the entire leverage exerted by a heavy motor; although that's actually the first time I've noticed the hole in it's foot!

So... here's the shaft after a painful extraction from the casting:

(https://madmodder.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12918.0;attach=46826;image)

You'd expect, looking at the above, that this would be a 2-piece shaft... except the OD of the threads is the same as the OD of the shaft... so how on earth did they do it?!

Simples, when you see it:

(https://madmodder.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12918.0;attach=46828;image)

Yep - THREE pieces! The main 1/2" x 10 1/4" shaft, with a threaded section, and a relief on the end. The part that fits in the boss, and then a separate sleeved section carrying the hex head. Please excuse the condition of the threads by the way... the only way I could get the boss section far enough up the shaft to remove the hex end was to put it in the Edgwick and effectively destroy the threads.

Note the two "divots" in the shaft: The far (left) end has broken off, but one assumes it was a large screwed-in affair, with a protruding head. This engages in the "boss" under the motor shaft, and provides the "quick screw" action to tension/un-tension the belts. The entire effort of that thread/unthread - which one imagines could be quite considerable, was carried by the small grub screw passing through the outer sleeve and into a hole in the shaft. No wonder it looks more like a volcano crater than a nicely drilled hole! TO my mind, this is probably the weakest part of the design, and I may try something a little more robust when I rebuild this part.

Finally - the adjuster nut. This is the clever bit (in my opinion!) - it's designed to rotate in the headstock foot (hence the C-spanner pin holes), by "tightening" it (clockwise) one loosens the belts a bit, and "loosening" it conversely tightens the belts. So a nice easy way to take up any variation in belt length if you had to change it, or as it stretched over time. The 2 1/2" thread length also allows access to the hex sleeve grub screw, without having to drill any unsightly access holes. It's all about the aesthetics! I assume that, as it's knurled, it's supposed to be easy to turn.... mine was wedged most thoroughly in the hole though, and required the arbour press to remove it. The reason:

(https://madmodder.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12918.0;attach=46830;image)

The grub screw, which also acts as a retainer to keep the adjuster nut in place, has bashed its way into the backside of the slot it's supposed to run in, so hard that it's gouged half it's own diameter out. Further evidence that this lathe fell over backwards. Possibly over a cliff. The burr raised is what made it impossible to turn, or withdraw; and obviously using the press will have damaged the casting (it pulled a flake off the front, I imagine it's also left a huge gouge in the bore. Nothing a bit of emery won't fix). I did file it down a spot, to see if it would slip back in, but it was still resisting, so I've not forced it.

So - my plan:

First - make a new shaft, which is as easy as pie. I'll put a phosphor bronze insert in at the end to engage with the quick screw tensioner.

Now... here's where I'm undecided. I quite fancy making a new sleeve, and using the die sinker, erode a hexagonal hole into it. THEN drill/tap for a grub screw. That way, the forces on the shaft, when tightening, will be taken by the hex that I'll cut on the end of the shaft, instead of by the poor grub screw alone. Also, it gives me an excellent excuse to finally use the spark eroder for an actual job - justifying the few hundred quid I spent buying it!

Last but not least, I'll weld up the damage to the adjuster nut, and clean it up on t'other lathe. I can either turn the end off a grubscrew to give a smooth running surface, or even cut a small fozzy-bronze block to ride in the slot. It won't stop it getting mangled if the lathe falls off another cliff.... but it might make it easier to take apart afterwards!

I also need to make a new tailstock nut. No pictures of that, 'cos it's literally very ordinary. The only thing that took me slightly by surprise its it runs on a normal 1/2" Whitworth thread, and not an Acme screw. Still, that should make it a tad easier to cut the threads.

Right, I'm off to haunt eBay  :wave:, I need some fozzy bronze  :palm:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 10, 2019, 05:23:43 PM
A little bit of CADdery later, this is what I reckon the shaft & head will look like. Maybe not quite that colour...

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: JD on June 11, 2019, 12:33:27 AM
Ade have a look at G&M tools in West Sussex for boxford spares a phone call may be you best bet, speak to Tim or Digger.
 In my folder John W stuff on Boxford forum is a wiring diag for a model c (later model) may be of use.

John
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: pycoed on June 11, 2019, 06:13:29 AM
I seem to be in a minority of one on this - but hasn't anyone heard of the term "flogging a dead horse"?
I mean this is not a Hotzapffel lathe, it's a bloody Boxford CUD made in the thousands.
Save some undamaged bits & go & buy another working one for <400 & save yourself months of effort?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: JD on June 11, 2019, 08:21:09 AM
Funny thought this forum called MadModder, :proj: MAD being the operative word ?

John
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: nrml on June 11, 2019, 08:43:31 AM
I seem to be in a minority of one on this - but hasn't anyone heard of the term "flogging a dead horse"?
I mean this is not a Hotzapffel lathe, it's a bloody Boxford CUD made in the thousands.
Save some undamaged bits & go & buy another working one for <400 & save yourself months of effort?

AdeV is a better man than me :bow:. If I had that lathe in my garage, it would have been consigned to the scrapyard. Still, it is very entertaining and rewarding to see a machine like this resurrected / rescued from the scrap bin. I am pretty certain that by the time he is finished, it would have cost less in money and labour to buy a small Harrison or Colchester but I think he is in it more for the challenge of the project than the end product.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 11, 2019, 09:52:01 AM
Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do  :thumbup:

In my case it's usually the fun of the chase rather than the quarry that drives me.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 11, 2019, 12:33:14 PM
I seem to be in a minority of one on this - but hasn't anyone heard of the term "flogging a dead horse"?
I mean this is not a Hotzapffel lathe, it's a bloody Boxford CUD made in the thousands.
Save some undamaged bits & go & buy another working one for <400 & save yourself months of effort?

It's a fair comment; but...

 - It may not be a Hotzapffel, but it's not a CUD either: It's one of probably the first 100 Boxfords ever made. For that alone, it's interesting.
 - Second - Dead horse? Far from it... considering all it's suffered, most of it is in very servicable condition. However, as I've now embarked on a nut-and-bolt restoration, that's what I intend to do.
 - Third: If this were my first lathe (and it might well have been my last, if it were), well, I wouldn't have bought it. But I have another lathe, which I can use to make or fettle the bits on this one. This lathe is to give me a second "workshop" at home, so it's not like I'm in a desperate rush to use it.
 - Fourth, and most importantly, I am enjoying this challenge. I'm going to learn new things along the way, practice some skills that I've let get rusty (TIG welding aluminium for example), and come the end of it, I hope to have a superb example of an extremely early Boxford to show for it.

It also helps, as John suggests, to be more than a little bit mad. Which I clearly am...

It also helps that I'm not charging myself labour. Heck, if I charged my own day rate I'd be broke before the week was out :D

And finally, I agree with Andrew - this is as much about the chase, as it is about stuffing and mounting the quarry's head on the wall. Or on the bench, in this case....


I hope to post a little more progress on the disassembly tonight. I'm aiming to get the spindle out, but first I have to collect a new pin spanner, and I'm going to call into the real workshop to check the progress of the citric acid pickling.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 11, 2019, 05:47:01 PM
Just a brief update tonight: Having now taken delivery of a second small pin spanner - I'd bought a small and a medium, but the pin on the medium didn't come close to fitting in the holes - I went to take the spindle lock nut off. And the small pins didn't really fit in the holes either  :palm: Must be metric pin spanners (4mm pin) and imperial holes (0.150" or thereabouts). That's about 3.75mm... Damn! However, I could get just enough purchase to unstick the two nuts from each other, thank goodness. The spindle then popped right out without any drama at all.

Pic 53 shows the various parts, pic 54 the now empty and more-or-less clean headstock.

The front bearing looks perfect, even the cup is clean and so smooth the camera couldn't auto-focus on it (pic 55). The rear bearing, however, is a different story - pic 56 & 57. You can see it's had some kind of a bash - indeed, all the rollers fell out when I tried to clean the grease off it. I was lucky not to lose one down the plughole of the sink  :lol: So I'll need to replace the rear bearing, and since I may as well do the outer cup as well, I need to figure out how to remove that. I believe it's a very light press fit, but I need to go read up on it before I tackle that. Also I need to find out what bearing it is, of course! The lathes.co.uk website suggested a fancy Timken bearing, but this one has no discernible maker's marks on it. I guess Boxford bearings aren't hard to find, and I believe they used the same size for every 4 1/2" lathe from start to finish. Everything else looks pretty OK. The pulleys need a good clean up, and the spindle has some rust internally which is a bit tedious - I might try some of this rust removing liquid you can buy (MC51), which various Youtubers use in their restorations & seems to do a spectacular job.

So that's it for tonight. Pretty much the last bit to take apart is the saddle/slides; then I can start looking at sourcing/making the few replacement bits I need to do, start welding the foot, and that motor/pulley plate. Hopefully the leadscrew, handwheels and various other bits will be done pickling by the weekend, and I can give them a clean up & check for excessive wear.

Thanks for following along - and all comments (even ones questioning my sanity  :headbang:), suggestions and hints/tips gratefully received!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 12, 2019, 01:55:05 AM
I seem to be having trouble posting some info on here, it doesn't seem to want to accept my attachments.

The outer race is removed from inside the casting. There are two small diametrically opposed holes that you can put a pin punch through to remove the outer race . I'll let you have the bearing details later.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 12, 2019, 02:14:57 AM
Hi Seadog,

I found a really helpful post on www.model-engineer.co.uk (https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=111931), which also mentions the pin punch holes, thanks! It also gave me the bearing codes - weirdly the back one is a metric bearing, the front one imperial... which seems odd... but it means I can get an SKF bearing for about a tenner. So that's nice.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 13, 2019, 01:17:16 PM
I had a bit of a rest yesterday, on account I've knackered my knee, but since resting it hasn't made the blindest bit of difference, I may as well press on regardless.  :whip:

Anyway, so I decided to measure up the apron handwheel pinion yesterday, as I'll have to make a new one. Or buy one, but they're silly money, and it's not like I haven't got the machinery to do the job... the only thing I might need to do is buy an appropriate involute cutter (or make a hob... hmmm...  :proj:).

Given that this is a 1948 machine, long before the European Union was invented, and not long after the French discovered the Metric system, I figured this was *bound* to be an imperial gear - doubly so because this is a copy of an American lathe, and they've yet to discover Metric even now... so out comes the calipers. 0.810" ish OD (bear in mind, this has some wear on it), RD is about 0.570" (IIRC - I'm on a train and don't have my notes with me), and has 14 teeth. But.... none of the imperial sizes really come close. At 19.5 DP the OD is too small, and at 20.0DP the RD is too big...

So, with some trepidation, I switched my computer over to French..... and sure enough, it appears to be a 1.25 modulus metric gear!  :scratch:

So, before I rush out and buy a $5 Chinese-made mod 1.25 cutter of the appropriate number - does that seem likely? I can't imagine I have one of those already, given all my involute gear cutters have come from auctions of "random stuff" over the years.

I figured if I measured the spur gear that the pinion drove (which also appears a lot less worn) I'd have my answer, but I remember now it's lurking at the bottom of a barrel of citric acid, hopefully getting shiny, clean and lemon fresh.  :thumbup:

Anyway, that's todays question for any Boxford experts (Seadog  :bow:).
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Pete. on June 13, 2019, 02:25:16 PM
It will be 20DP. There's an adjustment for small tooth count pinions in fact I just recently made a handwheel pinion for someone which was 14DP but worked out 13.something. Let me find the details....
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 13, 2019, 04:33:10 PM
20DP sounds right to me. Pete is spot on.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 13, 2019, 04:57:01 PM
Got to agree with both of you - the big cog it drives (which I rescued from the parts washer, having accidentally left it soaking for 4 days  :bugeye:) comes out at almost exactly 20dp when measured, close enough I can touch it.

So - 20dp it is! I shall look to see if I already have a suitable cutter - if not, RDG sell them  :clap:

Nothing much else to report tonight, my MC51 rust remover arrived, so I tried a couple of rusty bits out in it - wow... that stuff *works*. I'll do some photos of that, possibly on another thread.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Pete. on June 14, 2019, 05:59:14 AM
I can cut you a 20DP pinion if you don't have a cutter mate.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 14, 2019, 04:47:34 PM
Hi Pete,

That is a very kind offer, thank you! If I can't lay my hands on one, I'll turn up the blank & send it over to you, if that's OK.

I may also have a go at making a gear hob, in the style of the old (and now removed) Hobbynut videos on YouTube. I think someone else has done a similar video or series since, if not, and it works, I might do one myself as well. It only produced an approximate involute, but the nice thing was, one hob was good for anything from a rack upwards. It wasn't a true hob... but a sort of multi-tooth form cutter.

Anyway, more of that later, the kettle's just boiled so it's time to go warm up my parts washer liquid & get on with some scrubbing!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: chipenter on June 16, 2019, 09:38:24 AM
I looked at my lathe and the Boxford handwheel pinion is smaller and cross drilled for a taper pin . I would have to sleeve it , it's scuffed ware the handwheel has slipped, one patch of rust but the rest is good yours for a nominal fee .
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 16, 2019, 05:19:22 PM
Thanks for the offer Jeff. At this point, I'm still thinking of making a new one from blank. Although I don't have a 20DP cutter (I've got a 12DP and a 40DP, don't think I'll get away with splitting the difference  :lol:), but I've still got the Edgwick, and Pete's kindly offered to cut the pinion.

As for everything else - bit of a quiet weekend. I've managed to damage my anterior cruciate ligament in my right knee, so walking around is a bit of a faff right now. I assume it's named "cruciate" because when you damage it, it's "ex-cruciate-ing"?  :palm:

Also, I found I was clean out of TIG tungstens suitable for Aluminium welding (I've only got some ancient Thoriated ones left - mmm, radioactivity, tingly on the tongue), and Amazon were a bit tardy with their Sunday delivery, so I only just got the new gas lenses and tungstens that I ordered. Also, controlling the speed of the burr in the die grinder is a right royal pain, trying to spin it at a slow enough rate on the trigger to cut a reasonable amount of metal proving to be impossible whilst also keeping it on target. I used to have a regulator valve, but it's buried somewhere in the stuff I still haven't gone through since moving into the new place.... easier to buy a new one :) Apparently, it's a voltage regulator too  :scratch: I think the Chinese translator's had a glass or five of wine*...

Lastly... somewhat serendipitously, I was watching a video ("Trev's Blog") on the InterToobs the other day, about de-rusting. Wondering what his "magic solution" was.... turns out, weak citric acid! Unlike me, though, he warmed his in a bucket using an aquarium heater, and added a dash of fairy liquid (liquid dish detergent/soap for those not of a British persuasion). Next day, I get a call out of the blue from Dad, his missus has just liberated three large tea urns from her workplace. Two were spoken for, would I like the third? Damn right I would!  :wave:  A perfect heated de-rusting vessel  :thumbup: Obviously, in its current stance, it's not a "switch on and forget" device, as it'll boil the acid, and I'm not sure that's wise - so a bit of  :proj: to come - an Arduino attached to a temperature sensor and a relay should allow me to vary the temperature between ambient and very nearly boiling with consumate ease. Also, once I've finished de-rusting, I can throw a few teabags in there and have lemon tea  :lol:

Next jobs, then: The welding will now have to wait until the weekend, most likely. I need to get some suitable diameter steel - everything I have is either too big or too hard (said the bishop to the actress) or too short (retorted the actress). There's still some parts cleaning to be finished off, I'm waiting on the rear bearing to arrive; I'll pop the cup out in the next day or so. I also need a supply of paint stripper, some paint, and I want to reproduce the old Boxford plate, the speeds/feeds plate, and the the threading chart, but with a twist (I'll keep the originals for posterity). Oh... and I've decided sod it - I'm going with the black & gold paint job. If the next owner after me wants it to look exactly like it left the Boxford factory, in late Spring/early Summer 1948... they can jolly well repaint it themselves  :coffee:

Thanks, by the way, to everyone who's contributed so far with suggestions, helpful information, offers of parts etc. I'm very grateful and humbled.

Oh.... I also got a shiny set of collets + drawbar from fleaBay the other day, so I look forward to fitting that! It's in close to pristine condition, looks like it just needs a dot of lube or two to help the collets slip in and out, but is otherwise pin on! I'll take some photos of that when the lathe is back together.

Meanwhile, here's some piccies of today's Amazon haul, and my new deruster.




--

* Chinese wine... is about 40-60% alcohol, and drunk in much the same manner as Tequila. It's very scary stuff, I might try using some as paint stripper...
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: tom osselton on June 17, 2019, 12:09:49 AM
I've managed to damage my anterior cruciate ligament in my right knee
I did that back in 92 mind you I snapped mine while launching myself off a 6 foot fence! It seems like I forgot how to tuck and roll! It was fixed by way of reconstructive surgery.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 17, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Tonight's instalment isn't really specific to the lathe.... but about derusting in general.

First - here's a link to the video I mentioned about derusting parts. The link will take you straight to the part where he's making his solution: https://youtu.be/fdTqrgq_5ag?t=214 (https://youtu.be/fdTqrgq_5ag?t=214)

If you're not fussed to watch - it's basically 10 grams of citric acid granules (from a well known auction site) per litre of warm water in a bucket, with a dash of washing up liquid to act as a wetting agent. He uses an aquarium heater to maintain temperature - I use a stainless steel tea urn. What the acid will do to that long term, I'm not sure... I'm sure it can't be good.

Anyway... Pictures 1-4 show a rusty chuck which came with the lathe, and picture 5 is a re-cap of what the pulleys looked like inside the headstock (although they seemed less rusty once out in daylight... not sure if that's just an artifact of the camera flash or what.

I used about 6 litres of water (about a gallon and a half in US measures), and therefore 60 grams (2oz) of citric, and just to be contrary, an Imperial Squirt (about half a metric dollop) of washing up liquid. I warmed it to around 40 degrees C (that's about degrees 40 in French measures), and added the pulleys and the chuck. After about an hour I went back to it, re-warmed it to 40 (it was only 5 degrees down from where I started it, which is quite remarkable given the complete lack of insulation on the urn), and left it overnight. In the morning, before going to work, I gave it another dose of warmth and a quick stir... then returned to it when I got home about 12 hours later. So all in, it had about 24 hours +/- in the acid, of which maybe 6 hours were above ambient.

The results are remarkable... pic 5 is what I saw when I opened the lid  :bugeye: , pics 6-8 show the state of the chuck & pulleys after a quick wipe down with a rag. A remarkable transformation for such cheap ingredients! I'll definitely be looking at automating the urn so it maintains around 30-40C. It's also a lot cheaper and quicker than mixing up a massive barrel of freezing cold acid (with water straight from the glacier). Mind you, I still can't fit that leadscrew in it...

The chuck has gone back in for another night, as there's still a few spots of rust on it. Hmm, just need to find/fabricate a chuck key so I can see if it actually works! There's plenty more ancillaries to de-rust, but the cast iron bed I'll use that MC51 on a rag, it also won't fit in the urn!

That's it for now... got to rest this damn knee.



Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 18, 2019, 02:36:07 AM
Ade when I use citric acid for long shafts I use a suitable length of either 110 or 150 mm underground drainage pipe stood upright and a blanking plug on the lower end.

I have a couple of such lengths and I also use them for nickel plating (after a good wash!)
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Will_D on June 18, 2019, 04:30:23 AM
Ade, stainless steel loves an acid.

It helps build up the Chromium Oxide layer which protects the steel.
Often after fabrication, stainless parts/installations are "passivated" by use of acid washes/soaks.

Stainless does not like stong alkaline solutions. We use this to clean home brew equipment and you dont want to leave in for more than 24 hours.

HTH

Will
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 18, 2019, 05:28:58 AM
Andrew - I like it, great idea... I could stand it in the urn turned up to 11 to get it all nice and warm too!

Will - good to know, thanks! I was a bit concerned it might eat the metal eventually... but if it makes it better, wow! Cool  :headbang:

After a quick trip to the quack, it seems my lower leg isn't about to fall off, so with a bit of luck I'll be bouncing around like Tigger* again soon.



* An old, slightly crippled version of Tigger...!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: philf on June 18, 2019, 11:47:36 AM

So - 20dp it is! I shall look to see if I already have a suitable cutter - if not, RDG sell them .....

Ade, don't forget the pressure angle. 14 1/2 or 20 degrees.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Pete. on June 18, 2019, 01:55:10 PM
Boxford is usually 14.5, Denford is 20.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: philf on June 18, 2019, 02:25:43 PM
Ade, stainless steel loves an acid.

It doesn't like hydrochloric!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 18, 2019, 05:58:49 PM
Phil - good catch on the pressure angle. This leads to a conundrum....

Please see pictures Exhibits "A" and "B": Exhibit "A" is the sliding pulley which either engages directly with the pulleys via drive pins; or engages with the backgear shaft. Exhibit "B" is the backgear shaft. For ease of viewing, I've blown up the relevant parts of each picture. Note that the main gear has "14 PA" stamped on it (the "4" looks more like a "+", I guess it was the apprentice's day on the punches). The backgear shaft, on the other hand, has "20PA" stamped into it!

Now - this IS possibly correct, as the large gear on the backgear shaft is, in fact, a pinned press fit, whereas the small gear is cut into the shaft itself. Either that, or one (or both!) of the gears have been replaced at some point, with the wrong item, perhaps a gear off a later Boxford. We shall never know.

Is there any obvious way to check the pressure angles? The teeth all seem to mesh OK, but I don't really know what I'm looking for.

In other news, I popped the back bearing cup out using a small pin punch and a handy lathe part to tap it with (the hammer wouldn't fit!) As anticipated, almost no force needed, just a few gentle nudges on each side in turn and out she popped.  There's no makers mark on the backside, but rather fascinatingly it's had the words SCOTLAND "CARRICK" (in quotes) and a number hand engraved on it. The number is very hard to make out, but after some googling, must be 14274. Looking closely at the front of the bearing again, it also has SCOTLAND and CARRICK (no quotes around it, this time), and a number, but the number's more worn than on the back. Although I can't read it, some googling and searching eBay suggests it must be 14137A, as that pair make up a bearing the exact size of the one I've got (as measured with calipers, so +/- a couple of thou). If anyone can explain, though, why Scotland and Carrick appear to be hand scratched into the bearing, please share!

So... the website I linked to earlier in this thread, with the bearing sizes in it, has led me astray  :palm: The rear bearing I have on order has a cup size some 3mm too big; therefore, tomorrow, I will order the correct bearing. If anyone needs the wrong bearing for a Boxford spindle, drop me a line, it's yours for the cost of postage!  :lol: (and if it happens to be the right one for your lathe - well, bouquets all round  :beer:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2019, 02:48:19 AM
You can visually determine whether the pa is 20 or 14.5 by my crude but effective method:

Roll the gear in Plasticine to create the correct meshing rack. Cut longitudinally with a sharp razor blade and look in profile at the flank of the rack teeth which for an involute gear should be a straight line. This flank angle IS the pressure angle. The difference between 14.5 and 20 degrees can easily be determined with a cheap school plastic protractor.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 03:27:08 AM
That's not that crude, and sounds effective! If you'd called it "modelling clay" it would seem positively professional!

Looks like there's some Plasticine on my shopping list now!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 19, 2019, 03:49:25 AM
It definitely looks to be 14294, doesn't it? I've asked for any info on these gears on one of the Boxford forums. I'll let you know if there's a reply.

BTW, the large gear is called the Bull gear.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 19, 2019, 05:45:09 AM
Pretty much as expected, the backgear is from a later machine. The PA was changed in the '50s so the 14 is a pretty rare animal. Broken teeth are quite common when chucks get jammed. Since there's no way of locking the spindle until we get to the MKII the usual method is to engage backgear as a lock. Bull gears do come up for sale from time to time and the chap I spoke to does have a set available.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 07:33:58 AM
Thanks again for the info - Im wondering now if the pulley set is original or not - as it is in mesh with the small gear, which is 20pa. Its possible that the driven gear on the back gear shaft is the original 14pa, as it is pinned to the stamped shaft. Looks more and more like I need to go buy some plasticine at lunchtime  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 19, 2019, 08:00:03 AM
The large backgear is a press fit, at least it is on my spare. You may have a mix.

14.5 gears have a rounded root whereas 20 is flatter, or is it the other way around? Whichever, you can see the difference between the two from both the root profile and tooth profile.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 01:27:19 PM
Hi Seadog -

Yes, it's a press fit on mine too, with a thin (1/8" maybe) round pin serving as a key to prevent it rotating on the shaft. I know it's a very light press fit as I can move it a little if I push hard on the shaft with my thumbs whilst holding the large gear...

Turns out, it's not as easy to get hold of plasticine in the shops as I expected it to be.... so I've had to order some instead. Along with a protractor (10 off!!!) and an angle ruler which I may or may not find a use for one day. So tonight I'll have to make do with using the Mk1 eyeball, or maybe I'll just rest up tonight. I may need to plan some more purchases for the weekend...
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Fergus OMore on June 19, 2019, 04:54:45 PM
Blu-Tack? I don't like stealing from grand children :bang:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: mattinker on June 19, 2019, 05:15:24 PM
Turns out, it's not as easy to get hold of plasticine in the shops as I expected it to be.... so I've had to order some instead. Along with a protractor (10 off!!!) and an angle ruler which I may or may not find a use for one day. So tonight I'll have to make do with using the Mk1 eyeball, or maybe I'll just rest up tonight. I may need to plan some more purchases for the weekend...
I use plasticine when casting in plaster etc. I usually have three or four kilos in stock! I buy mine from a supplier of casting materials, resins, fibre glass matt etc. Artists suppliers should stock it!

Regards, Matthew
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 19, 2019, 05:16:55 PM
Dig a hole in the garden, surely Liverpool is on clay ?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 06:14:51 PM
Dig a hole in the garden, surely Liverpool is on clay ?

I'm not in Liverpool, I'm in Birkenhead - which is mostly on used engine oil  :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 06:17:36 PM
Artists suppliers should stock it!

Never thought of that - I was looking in toy shops  :palm:

Fortunately, Amazon to the rescue, I've got 1/2kg landing at Lime St. Station tomorrow (in time for me to pick up on my way home after work), for the princely sum of 4. I could have had it for 2.85 if I wasn't so impatient... Had to buy a pack of 10 protractors to get next day delivery on them too  :lol: Anyone want a protractor?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 19, 2019, 06:23:03 PM
14.5 gears have a rounded root whereas 20 is flatter, or is it the other way around? Whichever, you can see the difference between the two from both the root profile and tooth profile.

I can't honestly see any significant difference between the two. It seems unlikely the one actually stamped 14.5PA is lying.... but one never knows. All the gears all seem to mesh with each other just fine... even the ones that aren't supposed to (e.g. the bull gear and the gear on the end of the pulley unit; or the pulley gear on the small end of the backgear shaft.

My backgear shaft has one damaged tooth... so it's tempting to cut a new one to 14.5PA, assuming that matches the bull gear of course.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 19, 2019, 07:22:49 PM
At the end of the day, if you're using the back gear on a regular basis then you're going to wear both gears. If it's only ocassional use then you will probably get away with it.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Pete. on June 20, 2019, 12:56:09 AM
Any gear you can lay flat on paper can be checked for pressure angle. Download Geardxf.exe which will generate a dxf based on your inputs. Generate gear drawings for both pressure angles. Now open the dxf's in a cad program and print them side by side it at 1:1.

Simply put your gear on the drawing and see which one it matches best.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 20, 2019, 03:26:06 PM
Well, the plasticine and protractors arrived  :clap:

After a fair bit of mucking about... I figured the easiest way to check this would be to squidge some clay into a tooth of the bull gear, cut away all the surplus material around it & then very gently extricate it. Using this perfect(ish) tooth form, I then test-fit it in all the other gears. The results are: The pulley gear is 14.5PA to match the bull gear. The backgear shaft has 20PA gears on both ends.

As this is clearly unacceptable  :palm: and assuming original 14.5PA backgears for Boxfords are either unobtainium, or priced accordingly... I shall obtain some cast iron and make a new set.

Looks like the dividing head I bought mumbleteen years ago, which has so far only been used for cutting hex ends on shafts (I can hear it crying from here), will finally get used for a proper dividing head job! I bet I can't find the right plate...  :scratch:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 23, 2019, 07:12:27 PM
Another weekend plagued with visitors means not as much achieved as I'd hoped... but at least I made a start on some of the repairs and new parts.

So... now I'm wishing I hadn't used quite as much superglue on the headstock as I did  :palm: That stuff does NOT react well to being welded through... I managed to get a few tacks to hold, though... before blowing the top out completely  :bang:  So I left that for another weekend, and moved on to the new belt tensioner parts. The shaft should be relatively straightforward, but I wanted to make the front piece (the one that takes the handle) first, then I can make the hex end of the shaft to fit that part.

1st effort got abandoned due to me making some dumb mistakes with my measurements, the second effort was much better. It's made of some mystery steel which hasn't got a nice finish on it, but I'm hoping it'll polish up OK. The turning was straightforward and not worthy of pictures; where it gets interesting is cutting the hex hole.... so finally, I get to use my spark eroder on a real project (well... for certain values of real anyway  :lol:).

First job, after finishing the steel blank, was to turn a piece of copper bar down to the appropriate diameter (pic 71 & 72 - the poor dividing head mentioned earlier, still just cutting hexes!). The slightly smaller diameter on the end is a registration diameter, and just fits in the hole drilled in the steel. This will allow me to line everything up on the spark eroder, which doesn't have graduated handwheels.

Pics 73 & 74 show the copper electrode with the hex cut finished to a high-ish polish (ahem).

Next, the steel blank is clamped into the spark eroder, the electrode tightened into its holder, and the whole lot lined up (pics 75, 76), then the tank is filled and the eroding begins (pic 77 - which is about the best shot I could get. Photographing spark erosion from above the fluid is really tricky! I just remembered, as I write this, that I have a GoPro-like camera with a waterproof housing.... so maybe I'll try for a submerged shot from that next time. Watch this space!)
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 23, 2019, 07:26:21 PM
After a couple of hours, I checked on progress, which was really good - about 0.8" done. At this point, I discovered that the adjusting nut for the electrode was interfering with the clamp screw. One issue with a spark erosion machine... it'll cheerfully eat itself, without giving you any warning signs! Another issue, the electrode also wears, as well as the workpiece; so having to re-arrange everything inside, I also took the opportunity to lop the worn bottom off the electrode. I no longer needed the registration round, as I could use the hex itself. After this, another couple of hours of fizzing and popping, I called it done.

The remains of the electrode (pic 78) show clearly how far in it got; also, if you look at the bottom, you can see it's worked its way back to being round... However, there's still about 800 thou of decent hex left, which is plenty deep enough for my purposes. If push absolutely comes to shove, I can always chop the bottom off it again, and use the as-yet unused bit to push the hex deeper. Pic 79 gives you some idea of how deep into the part it's gone. That's at least 3 diameters...

Pics 80,81 are the money shots  :lol: I reckon broaching is the only way to get a better hex, and I'm pretty sure you can't broach into a blind hole and get all the way to the bottom of it without some really fancy-pants way of getting rid of the chips....

Finally, pic 82, just to show the bleedin' obvious; the electrode fits perfectly in the hole  :bow: There's probably about 3-4 thou clearance all around, which makes sense; it also means I'm not exactly sure how big it is, except that it's a smidge bigger than the drawing calls for... this is why I wanted this part made first; I'll cut the hex into the end of the actual adjustment shaft next, and will sneak up on the final dimension so it's a nice wobble-free sliding fit. At least... that's the plan!  :coffee:

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 24, 2019, 05:57:57 AM
Excellent machines aren't they Ade  :thumbup:

A distinct sense of de ja vu seeing that reminding me of making a big socket grub screw for my folder
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 24, 2019, 06:12:03 AM
Excellent machines aren't they Ade  :thumbup:

They certainly are! Pretty specialist... but for this kind of job, indispensable I'd say!

A distinct sense of de ja vu seeing that reminding me of making a big socket grub screw for my folder

Out of interest, did you under-size the electrode for your grub screw, so the allen key was a good fit? If so.. approximately how much undersize did you need to go?

Cheers!
Ade.

(Hmm... I should get back to work...)
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 24, 2019, 07:57:41 AM
Yes but only a few thou

Detailed here:

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9334.0.html

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: kayzed1 on June 24, 2019, 03:59:34 PM
what size of CI do you need for the gears?
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: WeldingRod on June 24, 2019, 10:06:34 PM
You can broach blind, but you have to keep pulling the tool out as n breaking off the chips with a punch.  That's how I made the cams for my D-1 headstock mod.
I might still have the backward one ;-)
Yep!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190625/907f14646ac7263cb2eee57d15f5bf91.jpg)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 25, 2019, 03:35:26 AM
what size of CI do you need for the gears?

The OD of the large gear is 4", the spur gear is about 1.6" ish (I have the exact measurements, but not here). I was going to buy a couple of slices of 5" CI for the big gear (4.5" doesn't seem to be available), and a 2" bar about 6" long for the spur/shaft. The main thing that's stopped me is I'm not sure how to bore that large a piece with sufficient accuracy... the original looks to be a casting, with both ends machined about 2" in, with the centre left "as cast", with a smaller diameter. I don't know if they cast it as a gear & then tidied the teeth up, or as a blank & fully machined the teeth into it.

The large gear is about 0.580" thick, although I assume that's not a particularly critical dimension.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Pete. on June 25, 2019, 03:04:11 PM
If you're making a 4.5" gear from raw cast bar stock you'll need to start with a  5" bar anyway. The outer crust can be quite thick and you won't want to be cutting teeth in it.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 25, 2019, 05:30:45 PM
If you're making a 4.5" gear from raw cast bar stock you'll need to start with a  5" bar anyway. The outer crust can be quite thick and you won't want to be cutting teeth in it.

Good to know, thanks. I was going to buy 50mm bar for the spur gear (which is as good as 1.625" OD, or a shade over 41mm), suitable do you think?

I snuck down to the workshop today for half an hour (have car, will travel... but my knee is basically better now, so I won't have an excuse to drive to the railway station for much longer), so I cut the hex into the end piece, and using a fairly coarse file, cut a bit of a dome in the end. The belt sander tidied up the worst of the machine marks on the faces, so I brought it home and had a go at polishing it  :D OK... I need to do more work on getting rid of the cutting marks, this was just playing around really. It still came out nice and shiny, which is what I'm looking for. Mmmmm. Shiny.

Now.... do I gold plate it for the "black and gold" colour theme.....?  :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 25, 2019, 05:40:42 PM
 :doh: I just realised I'd got the old bit here too, and the part it fits in. And as we know:
 :worthless:

So may I present: Old vs. new; old in the mating part; new in the mating part  :thumbup:

I still need to drill the handle hole (should be straightforward enough), and the hole for the grub screw. The latter will wait until I've got the shaft finished, so I can be sure the end of the grub screw fits perfectly. Also note, I've made the hex a bit bigger - 3/4" instead of 11/16". I can never find my 11/16" spanner... but 3/4" = 19mm = loads of them kicking around the place  :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 28, 2019, 06:35:46 PM
Things have been a bit quiet on the Boxford front the last few days; I found myself short of tooling... After several abortive attempts to cut a thread using a brazed carbide tool (chipped the end off), an insert (wouldn't go deep enough, and I'm 99.9% sure it was a 60 degree bit anyway), I did finally get some success with a ready-cut HSS tool I found buried at the back of a box of HSS bits somewhere. I think it's 55 degree, but it's hard to be certain. There's not a lot in it, and my eyes aren't what they used to be. If anyone has an easy way to determine a 55 degree vs. 60 degree cutting tool, speak now... So... more on the threading tomorrow, when I hopefully finish off the belt adjustment shaft.

Meanwhile, a set of polishing wheels/polish had showed up, and yesterday a fine selection of wet & dry paper in various grits (all the way up to 3000!) appeared; so tonight I called in at the workshop for a bit of messing about. Basically, I wasn't happy with the finish on the adjuster collet thingy, so I chucked it up in the lathe, and filed away the worst of the indentations. Then I used progressively less aggressive emery cloth - 80 to start, then 120, then 240, followed by some 400 grit W&D, finishing off with 1000 grit. I did the same with the adjuster nut/handle holder thingy, although I've not yet done the flats (I'll drill it first).

Finally, when I got back home, I gave it a 2 stage polish on the hard cloth wheel & then the soft floppy wheel, with the two grades of polish which came in the kit.

I think they came out rather nice. If you look really closely, there's still a few scratches left from the sanding (they may not be that visible in the photos)... but they'll do for me, for now  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 28, 2019, 06:46:52 PM
You need one of these, Ade.

Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 28, 2019, 06:59:36 PM
I do have a fishplate (somewhere - can't put my hand on it right now....), but I find even that difficult to use, especially if the tip of the tool is small. Hm, I wonder if one of those digital protractors would do the job.... Now, where did I put my Amazon catalog?  :scratch: :lol:
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: awemawson on June 29, 2019, 02:31:47 AM
Ade, I bought a job lot of 100 mm glass magnifying lenses a few years back and have one 'to hand' by most machines and also at my desk. One of those and putting the part on a sheet of white paper makes such comparisons much easier.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: PekkaNF on June 29, 2019, 02:41:59 AM
... I think it's 55 degree, but it's hard to be certain. There's not a lot in it, and my eyes aren't what they used to be. If anyone has an easy way to determine a 55 degree vs. 60 degree cutting tool, speak now...
For threading tool, I would compare with aforementioned thread gauge. Maybe a little blue (sturat's or felt tip pen) would help. The tips of threading tools are getting smaller, I noticed that even my old bits have shrunk and I need to resort to loupe more often than before.

(http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/img35.gif)

For readymade thread I go to local bolt-store and bug the senior sales guy. He really has a knak of knowing wht to look for and waht is most likely to go where.

Pekka
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 29, 2019, 02:32:12 PM
Today I finished machining up the front end of the belt tensioning shaft, and drilled the holes in the adjuster nut to take the handle, and the grub screw to secure the nut to the shaft.

First I cut the hex. To my surprise, I got within 2 thou of a tolerable fit first time out of the blocks... so after a little skim, it slipped on perfectly, with only a tiny bit of wiggle.

Next job was to cut the thread. To aid me, I'd purchased a new split die (I have a 1/2" BSW die, but it's not a split one, and it doesn't have a lead-in taper), but then I hit a snag.... by making the centre post that goes in the nut a little larger than Boxford's original... meant it interfered with the thread slightly! And being hexagonal, I couldn't get the die centred properly.  :doh: So, plan "B" was invoked, and I single-point cut it all the way. The serrations on the hex are where the toolbit just touched the corners of the hex. I'd say it looks neat, but TBH it just shouts "amateur!!!". A few thou smaller would have made the problem simply go away... Anyway, we are where we are.

Once the threads were done and the adjuster collar was able to be screwed on/off, it's back over to the mill for some drilling. Ironically, you have to screw it on over the hex! It's a bit wobbly to start, but works surprisingly well considering how shallow those cuts are! I hemmed and hawed about the grub screw, but eventually went with an M6 thread, as I have about a bazillion cap-head screws, one of which I could cut down. Fitting the shaft and nut together, with the nut clamped precariously in the vice, I carefully drilled a 5mm hole into both nut and shaft (to assure perfect alignment. Purely by luck, the depth of the hole in the shaft was exactly 1/4"). Then I withdrew the shaft and tapped the M6 thread into the nut. Whilst I was there, I also drilled the 8mm (! yes, really, it's pin on 8mm) hole for the handle.

The cap-head screw has 1/4" length of thread turned off, to fit snugly in the 5mm hole in the shaft; then the cap was milled away to leave a grub screw. The original Boxford grub screw used an Allen key, but feeling lazy and in need of a coffee, I cut a slot (freehand with a 6" grinder, I'll have you know!) for a screwdriver. Unlike the original, this is just to hold the two parts together, there will be very little force exerted on the screw itself.

So... the pics show the component parts; then the collar screwed all the way in (out?) to allow access to the grub screw; an finally an overview of what it should look like in service.

The last remaining jobs on the shaft are to trim it to length (optional, quite frankly) and deburr the far end, drill and tap a hole for the "cam" which rides in the thingybob underneath the motor plate, and does the actual pushing in/out. I'll turn the "cam" bit out of phosphor bronze I think, since I accidentally ordered 2 pieces, so I've got more fozzy bronze than I'll ever need now!

There's one more thing to do to the adjustment collar; the big chunk that's missing from the relieved section (see 2nd pic) needs filling with weld, then turning back to diameter. The original Boxford setup had a grub screw protruding into that relief, which the collar then bore against when being adjusted. In theory, it shouldn't see a massive load (because you'd not turn the adjuster with the belts tensioned), but as we can see, it's vulnerable to being hit. Think I'll turn up a piece which is a nice sliding fit in there, drilled and tapped for a grub screw (or maybe just pinned, like my shaft). It wont be as strong as just using the grub screw, but it won't offend my OCD either. Somehow, just having the end of a grub screw sticking into that recess doesn't feel right.

More tomorrow, hopefully.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: Sea.dog on June 30, 2019, 07:06:08 AM
That's a nice job.

Now you only need find a diamond knurl with the right pitch to clean up the collar  :D
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on June 30, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
I do have some knurling tools... not sure if I have a diamond one though.... but actually I was thinking of leaving it more or less as it was... or I may have a crack at using some needle files on it to try to restore it the hard way... Let's see how much enthusiasm I have left after a few more bits are done  :lol:

I didn't do a huge amount today, being a lazy Sunday afternoon and whatnot... but I wanted to repair the ding in that collar. So.. set myself up for a bit of mild steel TIGging (Pic 92), ruined the belt sander (93) - remember children, don't get your tungsten stuck under the fence when you're using an inappropriate tool to grind a point on it, because nasty things happen...  Actually, once I'd cleared the shredded bits out, half the belt is still fine, which allowed me to finish off the tungsten and not have to locate the spare belts I bought. They're in there somewhere....

Moving on, I'm really struggling with this welder at the moment. Dunno if it's me, or if it's not working properly.... but I just can't get it to behave. I managed to get some metal melted into the ding, though, and whilst it should have been a nice flow, I had to flatten the worst of it off with a flap disc before mounting it in the lathe to be skimmed flat. I used a brass shim which IIRC John Bogstandard gave me years ago to protect the polished end from the chuck, and managed to tap it around until I had about 2 thou runout - near enough for this task.  Step 1 (94). After skimming, I used one of my superb Mircona parting off tools to fettle the groove (95 - please excuse the enormous bolt sticking up out of the top of the tool holder. I really ought to fix that...). The result (96) - not my finest welding hour, but it's way better than it was; and in use, you'll never see it. Out of sight, out of mind....

Next up, I turned a bit of bronze to match the ID and OD of the adjuster shaft (97), parted it off slightly too short, cut it in half and tidied the ends a little (98), and now it fits nicely(if sloppier than I'd like) in the groove (99). My plan with this part is to drill a hole, probably 3/16ths ish, in the centre, for a pin to drop into. Then I'll turn a special grub screw with a 3/16ths ish nipple on the end of it, so when the grub screw is tightened down, it engages with the hole in the bronze half washer thing, thus doing the same job as originally achieved by the bottom of the grub screw  :thumbup:

There's even room underneath to store the other half of the ring, should I ever need a spare  :lol:

So, that's it for this weekend. I forgot to bring the motor plate to the workshop, otherwise I'd have made the engagement pawl/cam thingy. I'll do that another day, once I've measured it. Meanwhile, I'm in the market for a new TIG welder I think... any recommendations? Needs to be reasonably priced, as my budget is a trifle limited right now...

Thanks for following along, hope you're enjoying the ride as much as I am so far.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: kayzed1 on July 02, 2019, 04:22:23 PM
Ade, if you want to come across to Holywell you can use my R-Tec 160 ( same as the one tested by Doubleboost ) on his site..
BUT: you will have to set it up.. as i have not even looked at it yet. I have all the bits of kit to get started just that i have not had the get up and go to get up and go...Yet.
Lyn.
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: AdeV on July 02, 2019, 05:05:39 PM
Hi Lyn,

That's an extremely kind offer, thanks! I might just take you up on that (but I've got to get the Jaaag back on the road first - need brakes!).

Interestingly, I seem to have got a bit more of a hang of the big old Murex... I think putting a smaller tungsten in and dialling the power back is helping. But what with the superglue, the muck down in the cracks, a pretty porus casting with years of junk in it... I think just burning my way through it (and me... note to self - get long sleeved shirt for TIG welding!) is starting to work. Although I did manage to blow a big gob out of one of the top mounts the other week. That'll be interesting to rebuild... lucky I've got lots of filler rod...

I'm embarrased to show them, really, but attached are some photos of where we're up to so far with the headstock foot. It's a mess, it's going to need a LOT of sanding back and re-shaping before it's done, and I'll probably end up using a load of bondo/filler on it as well, once I've finished welding up all the cracks. Praise the lord for flap wheels on grinders, is all I can say!
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: vintageandclassicrepairs on July 02, 2019, 06:54:10 PM
Hi Ade
Old castings need serious degreasing before trying to weld them
Its a bit pot luck as to what method works best, ?
I have used "Marine Clean" in a big container and heated it on the barbecue to degrease some vintage oil soaked bike casings
A go in the dishwasher can help too but I have found that the "eco friendly" modern dishwasher tablets are not a patch on ones I used 5 or 6 years ago  :(

John
Title: Re: Boxford back from the dead
Post by: hermetic on July 03, 2019, 01:37:48 PM
My first attempt at aluminium Tig welding was only a few weeks ago, converting my forge to underfan so it would go a foot nearer the wall. I managed to do it, but the casting which I was welding to a piece of ally plate was the elbow from an old gas balanced flue, and it oozed black goo all the time! got it done, but next time it will get a thorough degrease before I attempt it! My Tig is an old Interlass ac/dc from the early 80's, so no foot pedal either. :lol: