MadModder

Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: spuddevans on July 28, 2009, 04:15:16 PM

Title: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 28, 2009, 04:15:16 PM
I have finally got round to making a start on my next ( Yep, I've caught it...  :proj: ) project, and while tempted to do a Rocking engine, I had to stick with with my initial plan of building Bog's Paddleducks engine.

So I had previously got some materials gathered for this build, and not having any cast iron at all, but having a brass block that was itching to be reduced to a nice cylinder-shaped block, I decided to use brass for the cylinder.

Here is the raw brass block, the other dimensions are 25mm thick and 50mm high.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470378_rCFDp-L.jpg)


I then used my very expensive marking dye system and used my vernier caliper to mark out a rough shape to then transfer to my very expensive bandsaw (my right arm  :lol: )
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470614_ZXZ4K-L.jpg)


So I next ground up a tiny toolsteel for my tiny flycutter as per the Bogstandard curved profile that I read about on a thread here somewhere. This is my second attempt at grinding the curved shaped flycutter, I have a larger flycutter that doesnt cut as well as this latest attempt, practice I guess  ::)


So with this newly ground up tool I am totally impressed with it. The finish on brass is soo silky smooth!!! Compare it to using a end-mill and there is just no contest. I also learnt that my X2's Z axis is made out of a very tough but flexible form of spagetti. I am intending on re-inforcing the upright column, but in the meantime I have to be mindful of taking lighter cuts.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470723_p488P-L.jpg)


I have an even smaller flycutter, they're so dinky.

By the way, is there an accepted method of working out what speed to set the mill at for flycutting? :scratch: ( the smaller flycutter seemed happy to run faster)

So after squaring and sizing the 4 sides I then squared off the 2 ends with a 4-flute mill.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470900_gro4r-L.jpg)


It's amazing how the little brass chippings/shavings get everywhere (especially down the neck of my teeshirt, and they are pretty hot too  :bugeye: ) My workbench was (and still is) covered with a golden snowstorm.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604471170_PRa9h-L.jpg)


I then had to smooth the 2 ends with some 360grit wet+dry placed on a granite plate to try and get them to match the smooth flycutter-ed surfaces.

And here it is, the first part made to size (well within 0.02mm on 2 dimensions and dead on the 3rd :thumbup:)
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470176_UkjBR-L.jpg)


That's all I got done today, not much to see so far, but it's good to be back on an engine project and I cant wait to get back into the workshop to crack on with it.


Tim


Edit: If you want to see larger versions of the pictures of this build click here  (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on July 28, 2009, 04:52:01 PM
Well done Tim.... :clap:

I'm itching to get back to my paddleduck build, but at the mo I have too much else on and no machines running...... :(

I'm moving my workshop as well as continuing to build the garage....oh hum, won't be long and I'll be cutting some swarf soon enough..... :)

You've taken on quite a challenge, this engine so far has taught me a quite a bit so far ....and very enjoyable it is too..

I shall be watching you closely to pick up any tips..... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on July 28, 2009, 05:39:22 PM
Seems like you have made a good start there Tim, best of luck following my ramblings.

Now there have been a few of these engines made, I can relax a little. At one time I was being innundated with emails for help where someone was having a problem, but now, people who have more up to date info can step in and help you as well if you need it.

Just go along nice and steady, do the measure twice, cut once routine, and don't worry too much if you haven't got the right materials, as long as it looks and feels strong enough to do the job, use it.
You will find very few tolerances, any that are critical are well signposted. Just use the make it to fit rule, if you machine a slot a little too large, see if you can get away with fitting a larger piece into it. Lots of times, you will find it will save you having to make a new part.

With regards to the flycutter, as long as you have ground the faces as shown with the reliefs required, you should find that you will get a surface finish like a mirror with a finishing cut of about 5 thou on your particular machine.
I have a heavy built machine and can take off 100 thou (2.5mm) in one go, and all I do is listen to the machine, it will tell you if it is struggling. I would suggest on yours for a max cut on non ferrous, about 20 thou (0.5mm) and on say a 3" total tip swing, try around 400 to 500 RPM and see how you get on. A lot of using a flycutter like this is feed rather than speed. The slower feed you go, the better the cut and finish.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 29, 2009, 01:52:24 AM
With regards to the flycutter, as long as you have ground the faces as shown with the reliefs required, you should find that you will get a surface finish like a mirror with a finishing cut of about 5 thou on your particular machine.
I have a heavy built machine and can take off 100 thou (2.5mm) in one go, and all I do is listen to the machine, it will tell you if it is struggling. I would suggest on yours for a max cut on non ferrous, about 20 thou (0.5mm) and on say a 3" total tip swing, try around 400 to 500 RPM and see how you get on. A lot of using a flycutter like this is feed rather than speed. The slower feed you go, the better the cut and finish.

Thanks Bogs, I have tried to grind the flycutter as per your C-o-C and photos, This second attempt seems to be better than my 1st go. I dont know if it is because of the flexibility of my little mill, but I seem to get a slightly better looking cut feeding from right to left, and I also note that I need to tram as the cutter is only leaving marks in one direction.

I found that I was removing about 0.3-0.4mm per pass, the mill didnt seem to mind that. I guess having a power feed would really help on getting a really good surface finish.( sigh, yet another mod to add to the ever-growing list) The flycutter tool tip swing is about 2" using this little flycutter.

I hope to get out to the workshop this afternoon to do a little more, (puts on best tv announcers voice) "Stay tuned for updates"


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on July 29, 2009, 03:47:31 AM
Tim,

It is that slightly out of tram that you can use to your advantage with a flycutter.

Whichever way it is that does what is called the back cut, taking a tiny amount off, that is the way you should use for final finishing. It gives you two bites at it.
Feed it so that the first cut is being done, but when the trailing edge that does the extra bit of cutting gets onto the face, slow down, and very gently carry on feeding. that back face is only taking off a minute amount, less cut than you could ever hope to put on with the handles, then just carry on until you have done the full cut. I find a little squirt of WD40, no matter what the material, really helps with getting that mirror finish.
As you have said, having a rubber machine doesn't help, but with a little practice on using the fly cutter, your finishes will improve dramatically.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on July 29, 2009, 08:16:52 AM
Since the block has a large number of holes to drill/bore/thread/deburr, you might want to wait until it runs before worrying about the finish.

Myself, I use the flycutter only for very fine cuts after an endmill has made the dimensions close and the surface flat.  Having a table feed makes it a lot easier, as you say.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 29, 2009, 12:45:33 PM
Whichever way it is that does what is called the back cut, taking a tiny amount off, that is the way you should use for final finishing. It gives you two bites at it.
Feed it so that the first cut is being done, but when the trailing edge that does the extra bit of cutting gets onto the face, slow down, and very gently carry on feeding. that back face is only taking off a minute amount, less cut than you could ever hope to put on with the handles, then just carry on until you have done the full cut. I find a little squirt of WD40, no matter what the material, really helps with getting that mirror finish.
As you have said, having a rubber machine doesn't help, but with a little practice on using the fly cutter, your finishes will improve dramatically.

Bogs

I seem to remember you saying that you used a slight out-of-tram mill as an advantage in finishing, thanks for reminding me of that.

Thanks Kvom for the advice to wait for the final finishing til after all the holes are bored, my excitement gets to me and I forget that I've got many more steps to do on the main block.


I got some time in the workshop today, and started out by Tramming my mill. A frustrating exercise as when you think it is in tram and then tighten the big nut holding the column in place, the act of tightening will throw the mill out of tram again.  :bang:

After tramming the mill I started marking up the main block for the cylinder holes, then clamped the block in the vice on top of some 1/2" parallels. I then used the edge finder to locate the hole centres as accurately as possible, and then centre drilled them. Working out the graduations on the mills handwheels it worked out at 18 full turns to traverse from the center of one hole to the center of the other.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605217703_3sTU2-L.jpg)


I then drilled and then opened out the holes starting with a 4mm drill, then 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 8.5mm 8.7mm, 8.8mm, 8.9mm and then finally reamed the bores to 9mm. ( I would have drilled/reamed them 10mm but I dont have a 10mm reamer, but I do have a 9mm reamer so I figured that making the bores slightly smaller would not make a big difference. I'll just make the pistons to match )
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605217785_7Ndao-L.jpg)


And this is the end result.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605213881_eiBRL-L.jpg)


I then turned (groan) to making the Top-Caps. I chucked up a length of some unknown steel ( to contrast with the brass ) in my 4jaw ( my 3jaw self-centering has too small a bore to allow the length to go into the headstock in order to use it without cutting it down ) Turned a section down to 18mm diameter, put a 9mm spigot on to fit the bore, then parted it off, and then repeated for the other.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605217437_dLvpx-L.jpg)


Then I mounted my ER32 chuck, the 18mm collet and mounted the topcap in it to turn the "Top" side. The 2nd one turned out better, practice makes perfect better.


Here's what they look like mounted on the block.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605217536_8dq8T-L.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/605217592_Dd7cP-L.jpg)



That's all for today, "Tune in next time for more of the same"


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on July 29, 2009, 01:26:27 PM
Coming along nicely Tim

 :thumbup:   :clap:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on July 29, 2009, 02:30:42 PM
Looking good Tim. Glad you got the fly cutter working, look forward to seeing it at work.

Hope to be over for a little while on Friday, maybe get some more of my project done, you can explain the niceties of this engine to me then.

Stefan.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 29, 2009, 02:37:17 PM
Thanks Stew, it's nice to be back making an engine again.



Hope to be over for a little while on Friday, maybe get some more of my project done, you can explain the niceties of this engine to me then.

That sounds good Stefan, we should get your project finished ( well that's put a curse on it now  :hammer: )



Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on July 29, 2009, 02:51:22 PM
Tim,

Because you were creeping up with the drills, you could have wacked the 10mm thru it. The surface finish would easily clean up with a bit of hand lapping.

Bit late now, but you will know next time.

John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on July 29, 2009, 03:10:34 PM
Nice start Tim. I think this one is going to turn out well for you!

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 29, 2009, 03:43:31 PM
Because you were creeping up with the drills, you could have wacked the 10mm thru it. The surface finish would easily clean up with a bit of hand lapping.

Good to know for future reference :thumbup: thanks Bogs.

I do have to say that reaming this depth in brass was not as much fun as I thought it would be. Even though I snuck up with drilling it up to 8.9mm before using the 9mm reamer, it still would bind up and jammed up a couple of times. So I introduced my friends, the low speed pulley, the 3-in-1 oil can, and the "ream a little-back out a little to clear flutes-ream a little bit more". The only stuff that I've reamed before was thinner stuff, so it took me a bit to get used to getting the feed right.


Nice start Tim. I think this one is going to turn out well for you!

Eric

Thanks Eric, It's great to be challenged with a more advanced build than the elmers #25. It feels good to be stretched and to learn new techniques.

And I have to say a really big Thanks to Bogstandard for taking the time to put together and write the plans for this, and then to make them available for free, that is truely great, and I really appreciate your time and effort that you put into this.

I reccomend everyone should download and read the plans, even if you are not considering building it the plans are very easy to follow and explain techniques that could apply to many other builds.



Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 31, 2009, 12:44:35 PM
So we got a little bit more done today, I say we because Stefan (spynapples) was over finishing off his airgun-trigger part, once we got it finished he helped me out doing a little more on the Paddleducks engine.

1st of all we started on the packing nuts, we chucked up some 8mm hex brass bar, turned a 6mm section and then threaded it.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/607015412_4ULvW-L.jpg)


Then we parted it off and did the same again.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/607015032_v2ywc-L.jpg)


The only thing that bothers me a bit about these is that, because of the width of my parting tool there isnt much thread left, about 2.5-3 turns on each nut.


Then we cut off some 22mm round brass bar for the packing gland, chucked it up and turned down to 18mm.  Then we turned down an 8mm section and put a center drill in the chuck and almost drilled it.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/607015260_6KY5n-L.jpg)


Then Stefan had to go so we called it a day there.

So just a short update, hopefully I'll get some more done over the weekend.



Tim

edit: posted wrong pic
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on July 31, 2009, 01:53:24 PM
practice makes perfect better.

I like that quote, may I borrow it from time to time Tim   :thumbup:

and ............. thanks for taking the time to do a complete write up, fine job so far and no doubt it will just get better  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on July 31, 2009, 02:11:12 PM
...

Thanks Eric, It's great to be challenged with a more advanced build than the elmers #25. It feels good to be stretched and to learn new techniques.

...

You gotta admit, it is a fun way to learn!

Eric

good job btw!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on July 31, 2009, 02:45:59 PM
I like that quote, may I borrow it from time to time Tim   :thumbup:

Borrow away  :thumbup:
Quote
and ............. thanks for taking the time to do a complete write up,

You are more than welcome. I actually really enjoy doing the build log thing, it's good to try and explain and show what you've done, plus it is a really good learning experience as more experienced machinists will chime in with suggestions and helpful hints and tips ( or is that tints and hips  :scratch: )


Tim

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on July 31, 2009, 03:06:04 PM
The packing glands for the valves are the same, so might as well make 4.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on July 31, 2009, 06:07:43 PM
Hey Tim,

I enjoyed the shop time this afternoon, first time turning stuff on the lathe (for me). Jolly addictive, and I'm glad I didn't reduce any of the parts to scrap. Thanks for letting me learn the basics on one of your projects, if I mess it up, you'll be able to tidy them up again!

Thanks for your help with my project too, it has made a world of difference!

Stefan
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on July 31, 2009, 07:39:30 PM
Tim,

The steam gland screws shouldn't go all the way into the gland nut, as they are used to compress material in there. So after your first cut with your die, turn the die around and use the unmarked side. It should then cut the thread almost to the shoulder, as the die shouldn't have a lead in taper on the 'bad' side. If the die has a lead in on both ends, I usually grind down the die on the 'bad' side to get rid of the lead in, purely to allow me to cut a full depth thread right up to a shoulder.

I would suggest you grind up a specific undercut tool, about 0.02" (0.5mm) wide, as you will need it for all sorts of threading to a shoulder. Maybe not on this project, but for others in the future.

If you are single point cutting, you really need a small undercut to drop into anyway.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 01, 2009, 03:48:33 AM
Tim,

The steam gland screws shouldn't go all the way into the gland nut, as they are used to compress material in there. So after your first cut with your die, turn the die around and use the unmarked side. It should then cut the thread almost to the shoulder, as the die shouldn't have a lead in taper on the 'bad' side. If the die has a lead in on both ends, I usually grind down the die on the 'bad' side to get rid of the lead in, purely to allow me to cut a full depth thread right up to a shoulder.

I would suggest you grind up a specific undercut tool, about 0.02" (0.5mm) wide, as you will need it for all sorts of threading to a shoulder. Maybe not on this project, but for others in the future.

If you are single point cutting, you really need a small undercut to drop into anyway.

Bogs

Do you think I need to remake the gland nuts or is there enough thread on them? I can remake them as I havent yet drilled and tapped the packing gland (And it should remain concentric as it's mounted in an ER32 collet chuck that I can remove it in the ER32 chuck to turn up some new gland nuts using the 3jaw. (I'll make 4-5 nuts as Kvom mentioned that the valve packing glands are the same))

I'll grind up a specific undercutting tool too. I will be single point cutting on pretty much all the threads on this build as I have yet to make a tailstock die holder. I generally single point until near depth-of-thread and then clean up with a die.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 01, 2009, 05:04:10 AM
Tim,

The ideal method is to assemble the nut and gland together and tighten them up. Then drill the pair together to make a matched set. You might have to superglue the screw in, to stop it being unscrewed out when drilled from the other side, as really, you should turn the bore spigot and drill the central hole at the same time, to ensure that things are concentric to the bore. As shown on this bit of an article.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1370.msg12873#msg12873

A little bit of heat afterwards will break the superglue lock.

I personally would remake the screws, as you don't really have enough thread on there to hold the packing in position without the screw 'cocking over'. After you have drilled the thru hole, you can go back and countersink the top of the screw, and inside the gland itself, so that it forms the packing into a nice compact ball.

I am very impressed by the way you single point cut all your threads. I only do it when absolutely necessary.

If only everyone could pick up the technique, as you have, they would soon realise for those special one off's, there is no need to go chasing around the country for taps and dies.

Keep up the good work

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: rleete on August 01, 2009, 12:53:25 PM
I generally single point most of my threads.  I find it one of the most satisfying jobs to do on the lathe.  Makes you feel really good when two parts spin together just right.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 01, 2009, 02:42:52 PM
I personally would remake the screws, as you don't really have enough thread on there to hold the packing in position without the screw 'cocking over'. After you have drilled the thru hole, you can go back and countersink the top of the screw, and inside the gland itself, so that it forms the packing into a nice compact ball.

I think that it'll be better to do like you say and remake the screws, I would have to make 2 more for the valve seals so I may as well churn out 4 ( or maybe one or 2 extra just in case the unthinkable happens and I make a tiny catastrophic mistake  :lol: ) And as I'm at a point that I can interupt in the making of the packing glands, I may as well do the remake. That'll be the 2nd item to do tomorrow afternoon, 1st will be to grind up a thin grooving tool to make a more reasonably sized undercut for the threads.

Quote
I am very impressed by the way you single point cut all your threads.

Dont be that impressed, while I do find it enjoyable, I do it out of need as I dont have a way of holding a die on the lathe ( unless I handhold it gripped in a pair of vicegrips, but I somehow doubt whether I could create a square and parallel thread form that way  :lol: ) I guess when I get around to making a tailstock die holder I will fall into the easier way of just using that, but until that time I have to do things the slightly harder way.

I generally single point most of my threads.  I find it one of the most satisfying jobs to do on the lathe.  Makes you feel really good when two parts spin together just right.

There is a great satisfaction to be found in single pointing a thread and then screwing on a commercially made nut or fitting, and seeing the 2 parts match up. :beer:  But then again, there is great frustration in single pointing what you think is a M6 thread and then wondering why the M6 nut will only screw on about 1 turn, and the M6 die wont even attempt to go on square, and then realising that some idiot ( me ) has left the leadscrew gears set up for M5 thread  :doh:  :doh:  :doh:, Or even more frustrating is finding out that the freshly cut thread has the proper depth of thread but that the overall diameter is just a fraction too big to screw in easily, and by some idiot's ( me again ) effort to screw said oversized thread in, the thread shears off in the tapped hole and then you have 2 parts to make again  :doh:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 01, 2009, 02:51:15 PM
Tim, I don't know how others get on, but I find single pointing produces far better and squarer threads than dies.

Don't be in too much of a hurry to get those dies in......not for precision work at least.... :thumbup:

You're doing a grand job as always...thanks for the write-ups.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on August 01, 2009, 03:00:55 PM
Ya know, for all I do on the lathe... I have NEVER threaded on it. Except using taps and dies anyway. Anyone want to do a thread on it with pictures?? Please?

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 01, 2009, 03:02:34 PM
Tim, I don't know how others get on, but I find single pointing produces far better and squarer threads than dies.

Don't be in too much of a hurry to get those dies in......not for precision work at least.... :thumbup:

You're doing a grand job as always...thanks for the write-ups.... :thumbup:

Thanks Darren, I believe you are right about single pointing producing far more accurate thread forms. I probably will continue single pointing after I get the tailstock die holder doo-dah made, probably start the thread off single pointing, get it near total depth and then just finish off with a die to get the right form and depth.


By the way, does anyone have a link or know of a publication that has a nice list of thread depth's, I have a couple of charts that give the OD of the different threads along with drill sizes for various %'s of thread depth, but I would really like a chart that tells me what each standard thread depth is, especially for metric threads as that is all I work in at the moment, ie M3 thread depth is ?? M4 is ... and so on and so fifth forth

I keep meaning to pick up a Zeus handbook, maybe it has something like that in it? I'm willing to buy a book that has the relevent details in it, I just dont want to buy a book thinking that it'll have it in it, and then find out it doesnt. So can anyone point me in the right direction please?

Tim


edit,

I just read your message Eric, I'll take even more pics than usual tommorow afternoon when I remake and thread my packing gland nuts screws and try and post up a new thread about it.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 01, 2009, 03:07:42 PM
Good question Tim....I have no idea, but assumed with metric threads depth was the same as pitch?

I just keep going till the part fits snugly.....but if you have to make both parts I can see that being difficult.
The other way I have done it is by judging with a thread gauge.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 01, 2009, 03:53:41 PM
A copy of machinery's handbook might be a good investment.  I got a used copy online for about $15.

For the small threads we use in modeling I have been cutting partial threads on the lathe and finishing them with dies.  Even with no undercut at the shoulder, you can use the die to thread almost to the shoulder as Bogs says.  the partial threads cut with the lathe will keep the die straight.

Definitely turn the boss and drill the glands with the same setup on the lathe.  You want the piston rods and valve stems to be dead center going through.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: rleete on August 01, 2009, 08:27:41 PM
But then again, there is great frustration in single pointing...(multitude of ways to mess it up)

Yeah, we've all had our share of screwing up.  In fact, threading is probably one of the easiest to ruin, as there are so many ways to do it.  You didn't mention the one that's my most common, which is running the tool into the shoulder by not disengaging the leadscrew, and either snapping off the pointing tool, or messing up the shoulder.  Then there's the "forgot at which line to engage the leadscrew", thereby cuttting an entirely new groove right over/through your almost finished threads.

I think that's why I derive so much personal satisfaction in doing it right.


As to the thread depths, someone posted a chart for imperial threads here or over at HMEM.  I printed and laminated it for hanging on the wall, and it's a very handy reference.  Not sure if they did one for metric, but it's worth a look.  If not, you can probably find one on-line with a bit of searching.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 01, 2009, 08:49:56 PM
Actually for someone who certainly considers themselves to be a complete novice I have found single point threading to be a complete and utter doddle...

Nothing to it....honestly... :thumbup:

Certainly on a 7x12 it is at least..... :dremel:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on August 02, 2009, 03:39:31 AM
Actually for someone who certainly considers themselves to be a complete novice I have found single point threading to be a complete and utter doddle...

Nothing to it....honestly... :thumbup:

Certainly on a 7x12 it is at least..... :dremel:

He`s right, you know!  :thumbup:


(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n95/Dayjo/p6020004.jpg)


David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 02, 2009, 01:34:32 PM
So here's todays update.

I started off by grinding up a new undercutting tool, about 0.8mm wide, here shown with one of the previously made gland adjustment screws for comparison
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608701232_ZNJk3-L.jpg)


Then I chucked up the brass hex bar in the 3jaw and turned down a little section for threading using a 6mm round profiling tool.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608701414_Q4igm-L.jpg)


Then I used the new undercutting tool to, umm, ........ undercut a groove
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608702830_SrLjT-L.jpg)


and then single point threaded a M6 thread ( as promised before, I will post up a new thread with a more detailed explaination of how I single point )
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608703354_yRVEU-L.jpg)


And within a short time I had a little family made up.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608703583_dsixk-L.jpg)


After changing over to the ER32 collet chuck that still had the packing gland mounted in it. I centre drilled, drilled and then tapped M6 to 5mm depth as per the plans. ( I had to grind down the tips of the taps as they were quite long and tapered to a point, too long to use in this application)

Then I mounted one of the gland screws and screwed it well in, then tidied up the backside of the screw, and then drilled the two pieces at once to keep concentricity, I drilled them 2.2mm then 2.9mm and finally 3mm.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608703834_mk34o-L.jpg)


Then I removed the adjusting screw, then reversed the packing gland and turned down the reverse side to fit the bore. This is the result.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608704182_8pofX-L.jpg)


Here is what it looks like in its place.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608704040_gzQcj-L.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/608701085_u72Hu-L.jpg)


And that's as far as I got today, next time I will make a 2nd packing gland, and then onwards and upwards umm sideways

I gotta go eat some food, then I'll post up my adventures in threading.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 02, 2009, 04:19:21 PM
Just one criticism Tim.

If you look at commercially ground threading tools, you will notice that the left hand side is ground away as much as possible. If you did that, you could turn almost to the shoulder without it cutting the chamfer under the screw head.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 02, 2009, 04:29:26 PM
Just one criticism Tim.

If you look at commercially ground threading tools, you will notice that the left hand side is ground away as much as possible. If you did that, you could turn almost to the shoulder without it cutting the chamfer under the screw head.


Bogs

That's a good idea, never thought of that, I'll have to grind up a off-centre threading tool.  :thumbup: :thumbup:

On these screws the chamfer was created by the round profiling tool, I thought it looked kinda nice and it had the additional plus of allowing the (oversized) threading tool to get close enough.

But I will definately grind up a better threading tool that'll allow threading closer to a shoulder.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on August 03, 2009, 01:56:03 AM
Just one criticism Tim.

If you look at commercially ground threading tools, you will notice that the left hand side is ground away as much as possible. If you did that, you could turn almost to the shoulder without it cutting the chamfer under the screw head.


Bogs

That's a good idea, never thought of that, I'll have to grind up a off-centre threading tool.  :thumbup: :thumbup:

On these screws the chamfer was created by the round profiling tool, I thought it looked kinda nice and it had the additional plus of allowing the (oversized) threading tool to get close enough.

But I will definately grind up a better threading tool that'll allow threading closer to a shoulder.


Tim

In my "he`s right" pic, you can see I use a blade type parting tool, ground for small scale screwcutting.  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 03, 2009, 02:06:07 AM
In my "he`s right" pic, you can see I use a blade type parting tool, ground for small scale screwcutting.  :thumbup:

David D

Ahh (goes back and looks at the pic again) I missed that the 1st time I saw your pic. I definitely will grind up something similar the next time I have to single point a thread.

Thanks  :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 03, 2009, 06:36:53 AM
I missed that too David, thanks for re-pointing it out to us.

I'll be grinding one of those up myself as well..... :thumbup:

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on August 03, 2009, 08:45:51 AM
Yer welcome Chaps.......  :thumbup:

Sometimes I`m not sure if, "everyone knows that"...... Or not!  ::)

David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 03, 2009, 12:27:46 PM
So I got a little more done today. I started by making the 2nd packing gland. I didnt take any pics of this, but here's one of the 2 packing glands in place.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/609773969_WeVkX-L.jpg)


I then made a start on the piston assembly, starting by roughing the pistons to within 1mm of final size, drilled and then tapped M2.5 and then bored 2.5mm 1mm deep to allow the rod to seat properly.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/609774118_KtgQP-L.jpg)


then parted off approx 6mm and repeated to make the other piston.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/609774252_cuN3s-M.jpg)


I then started on the rods, and following on from the single point threading thread I was determined to single point it. However, the chart of gears for my lathe did not list 0.45mm pitch as an option. After some not inconsiderable head scratching and vain calculations I gave up and came indoors to download Mklotz's "Change" program, entered my leadscrew pitch and the change gears that I have and it gave me a solution.

Back out to the workshop and a few mins later I was ready to cut. 1st off I centre drilled the end of the rod and brought up the tailstock with my new ball-raced center. Then it was just a case of making a few passes to get to near depth.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/609774395_Sig4B-M.jpg)


Then I removed the tailstock and finished the thread form off with a Die.

Then did it again for the other piston. Then I assembled the bits with some loctite and set them aside to set.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/609774649_Tv7YR-L.jpg)


And that's all I got done today. I'll start on finishing the pistons tomorrow, and then on to the crossheads.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 03, 2009, 12:54:56 PM

You will need to thread both ends of the rods, as the other end screws into the crosshead.  I don't know if having the pistons attached will pose a problem with the collet system you're using.

I had real problems getting the pistons to be completely square to the rods.  If your pistons are slightly oversize, then turning them to size with the rods chucked in the collet may be a good solution.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 03, 2009, 01:29:05 PM

You will need to thread both ends of the rods, as the other end screws into the crosshead.  I don't know if having the pistons attached will pose a problem with the collet system you're using.

I had real problems getting the pistons to be completely square to the rods.  If your pistons are slightly oversize, then turning them to size with the rods chucked in the collet may be a good solution.


Thanks Kvom, Fortunately with the ER32 collet system I should be ok with clearance for the piston fitting inside.

I had made a piston and turned it down to exactly the size of the bore before I re-read the instruction book and saw that it was reccomended to leave the pistons about 1mm oversize so that you can attach the rod and then turn the pistons to size and have them perfectly concentric with the rod.

So I remade the pistons oversize.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 03, 2009, 02:48:52 PM
Looking good Tim, even though it looks like you have masochistic tendencies by single pointing those small threads.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 03, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
it looks like you have masochistic tendencies by single pointing those small threads.

You dont know the half of it Bogs  :lol: :lol:

After threading the 1st rod I really, really, really wished I had a tailstock die-holder.

I think it has moved up the "to-do" list, right the way to the top.  :coffee:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 03, 2009, 03:23:56 PM
it looks like you have masochistic tendencies by single pointing those small threads.

wished I had a tailstock die-holder.

I think it has moved up the "to-do" list, right the way to the top.  :coffee:

Tim

Do I detect another thread on the way  :D

Real nice bit of work there Tim  :thumbup:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 05, 2009, 01:11:15 PM
Well having the day off today I was able to steal a few hours in the playroom workshop.

I started off with the pistons, I chucked one up in the ER32 collet.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611804636_Vkr3p-L.jpg)


I then turned it to 6mm length, turned the diameter to just be able to fit into the bore, then installed an oil groove. Then I used some 600grit and then 1000grit wet+dry to polish the piston to be a nice snug fit in the bore. ( I also eased the sharp edges off with the same 600grit )


I did the same to the other piston, this one was ever-so-slightly smaller ( to match the ever-so-slightly smaller bore ), and so I marked both the pistons and the bores so that I can match them up again, I used a couple of pop-marks on each part.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611804838_anHt5-L.jpg)


I then turned my attention to the crossheads, and after hacksawing some brass to make some smaller brass, I started to clean up and square up the pieces, and then to finally size them.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805012_AQttu-M.jpg)


Here they are marked up and ready for drilling.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805100_Ngfpn-M.jpg)


I didnt want to just rely on the markings, so I used my edge finder and then used the dials to get to the right position. I then drilled one hole before using the dials to get to the next position. This might seem overkill, but one of the blocks of brass was just slightly smaller than the plans called for, so I marked a datum face on both crossheads and indicated off this datum to get to the hole positions. This would make sure that the holes will be in exactly the right places relative to each other ( if not relative to the sides of the block )
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805257_TmLkB-M.jpg)


I then drilled the hole in the side of the blocks
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805396_gdnK8-M.jpg)


Here are the 2 crossheads drilled and ready to mill. Can anyone spot the (almost catastrophic) Boo-Boo?
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805527_dE3nv-L.jpg)







On the second block ( cunningly labeled "2" in the pic ) I drilled the 2.5mm hole correctly, I then moved over, using the dials, to the correct place on the X-axis, and misread, or miscalculated, my dial position on the Y-axis and drilled the 4mm hole 0.5mm too close to the edge ( the centre was 3.5mm in from the edge instead of the 4mm called for in the plans. )
 :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

Instantly thoughts of how I was going to rectify this sprang into mind, the 1st one being to silver solder a 4mm brass rod into the hole and then to re-bore in the right place. But after I thought for a while it occurred to me that if I make the other 4mm hole out by the same error I can just position the crosshead rods to match. Hence the numbering of the crossheads.

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/611805672_m6VJW-L.jpg)


And that's all I got done today. Stay tuned for more of the same, or rather, different mistakes.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 05, 2009, 07:46:40 PM
Quote
I can just position the crosshead rods to match.

Before going any further, go and mark the plan for the top plate with the revised dimensions. 

Personally I would just remake that crosshead before doing the milling.   :coffee:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 06, 2009, 02:29:28 AM
Before going any further, go and mark the plan for the top plate with the revised dimensions. 

Personally I would just remake that crosshead before doing the milling.   :coffee:

Thanks for that, consider it marked  :thumbup:

I would remake the crosshead but I dont have another lump of brass that is big enough.  :bang: But we'll see how it goes, I think the top-plate is one of the next pieces to make so it wont be long til I'm either ecstatic with joy or I'm buying in more brass  :lol:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 06, 2009, 02:54:37 AM
Actually, I think I mentioned that the holes in the top plate should be made slightly larger, purely because this area is the one you are liable to have the most trouble with getting things to run smoothly.

Get the piston rod and crosshead connected, then adjust the rods for a good running position. The main thing that can catch you out, if the threads are not square in the piston rod and crosshead locking nut. They can 'kick' the crosshead out of wack, so only a tweak on them to tighten, rather than a grunt.

Coming along great BTW.

Bogs

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 07, 2009, 11:22:51 AM
Tim, that's coming along great. Nice to see screwcutting as we probably don't see enough of that these days. Something I'm guilty of and I will have to practice to get the most from my lathe.

Also, good commitment as it would have been easy to do the rocking engine first!

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 07, 2009, 01:23:03 PM
Today's update:

I started on shaping the crossheads. I used a plunge-cutting-rounding-over mini-router bit from my dremel-clone to shape it.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613249840_ZfKRS-L.jpg)


Then after centering it I cut it down both sides and the middle.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250357_qnoh6-L.jpg)


Then the other one, and then I marked them both up for milling.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250171_WANm9-M.jpg)


Mounted in the vice on some parallels and cut down both sides of the fork.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613249955_GWRUQ-L.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250427_oZFsW-M.jpg)


Then I milled out the centre of the fork, opened out one hole from 3mm to 4mm, and then rounded off some edges and then spent a fair bit of time in smoothing out with 360, 600, and then 1000 grit wet-n-dry, and then re-reamed the deep 4mm holes for the crosshead rods and tapped the M3 hole.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250233_fogGz-L.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250302_Um6Ao-L.jpg)


And here it is next to the unmilled crosshead block.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613250051_4nszB-M.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/613249919_CPdZ4-M.jpg)


As you can see on the unmilled crosshead, I've drilled 2 6mm holes in order to get a nice curve profile between the upright guide portion and the fork part.

I had been toying with the idea of milling a couple of, say 2mm slots to expose part of the crosshead-rods, but I didnt have a 2mm or smaller cutter and I wasnt sure if it would negatively effect the crossheads themselves.

That's all that I was able to get done today, the shaping took a little longer than I thought, but I didnt want to rush at it as it would be a real bummer to mess up on one of these crossheads. I'll work on the 2nd crosshead over the weekend.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 07, 2009, 01:40:46 PM
Lovely job Tim

Good use of that dremel router  :nrocks:
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 07, 2009, 02:03:14 PM
Nice going Tim, really enjoying your exploits  :thumbup:

How did you go on using the router cutter, I know John (BS) is a fan, and to be fair on brass and ally I can't see a problem; must get round to giving it a try .......... Oh well at least I can get in the workshop now, things are looking up  :headbang:

Looking forward to your further adventures  :beer: you put it over well and it makes enjoyable reading, thanks   :med:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 07, 2009, 02:27:56 PM
How did you go on using the router cutter, I know John (BS) is a fan, and to be fair on brass and ally I can't see a problem; must get round to giving it a try ..........

I found them just great to use. they are quite small, 3.2mm shanks and from 3-9mm in diameter. I ran the plunge-rounding-over bit at about 2000rpm ( I say "about" because I dont have a tach' on my mill )

I took cuts of about 0.5-1mm per pass. It cut very easily. Actually this is the first time I've ever used this mini-router bit set, I've had it for about 8 years !! I think it cost about a fiver for 10 HSS cutters. I reccomend everyone to pick a set up, they cut great on the softer metals  :thumbup:


Looking forward to your further adventures  :beer: you put it over well and it makes enjoyable reading, thanks   :med:

Thanks CC, I'm enjoying these adventures too  :dremel:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 07, 2009, 02:40:00 PM
I say "about" because I dont have a tach' on my mill

Neither do I, so I bought one of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-Tach-B205_W0QQitemZ370127091793QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item562d4b3851&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

for the money they are pretty good, you need to practice a bit and learn when the readings are "a bit off" ........... but I find it a useful tool for little cost  :thumbup:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 08, 2009, 05:53:13 AM
Nice demo on the crossheads, you're really flying with this build... :thumbup:

You must be spending every spare moment.... :dremel:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 06:18:59 AM
Neither do I, so I bought one of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-Tach-B205_W0QQitemZ370127091793QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item562d4b3851&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

for the money they are pretty good, you need to practice a bit and learn when the readings are "a bit off" ........... but I find it a useful tool for little cost  :thumbup:

I have one of those, I just havent got to grips with using it, I select a spindle speed based on how it sounds when cutting and how small the cutting tool diameter is, the smaller the faster.

You must be spending every spare moment.... :dremel:

Pretty much every spare moment, I've had a slack week regarding my secular work ( clear wall maintainence engineering) and so have had a good run.

At the moment I'm trying to resurrect an older laptop to perhaps form the controller for a CNC conversion for my X2 mill that I plan for later on in the year (or next year, depending on how the other projects stack up :D ). I'm just gathering the various bits and pieces at the moment as I see them on offer.

I hope to get some time in the workshop this afternoon to work on the 2nd crosshead's shaping.


Thanks for the encouragement guys, and for following my efforts in crafting hacking smaller lumps of metal out of somewhat larger lumps of metal.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 07:17:44 AM
Tim,

The crossheads are the most complicated bits to fashion on this build. Everything else is just straight machining with a few accurate bits thrown in.

Seeing what you have done here, I don't think you will have trouble with everything else.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kellswaterri on August 08, 2009, 11:07:55 AM
Hi Tim,

''I started on shaping the crossheads. I used a plunge-cutting-rounding-over mini-router bit from my dremel-clone to shape it.''

Regarding the above, is this router you are using originally a ''WOOD'' cutting tool and does it have a shaft size of approx. 1/4'' in diam...I ask because I have a set of routers for my Bosch machine and have often thought of trying them on the softer non ferrus stuff.
All the best for now,
                            John.       
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 12:41:23 PM
Hi Tim,

''I started on shaping the crossheads. I used a plunge-cutting-rounding-over mini-router bit from my dremel-clone to shape it.''

Regarding the above, is this router you are using originally a ''WOOD'' cutting tool and does it have a shaft size of approx. 1/4'' in diam...I ask because I have a set of routers for my Bosch machine and have often thought of trying them on the softer non ferrus stuff.
All the best for now,
                            John.       

Hi John, actually mine are 3.2mm shank ( about 1/8" ) shank, but they are originally designed for "Wood". They are HSS router bits. Your 1/4" router bits should work on non-ferrous metals like brass and ali'. Try them and see, take light cuts and see what the finish is and how the cutting sounds. On smaller diameter cutters make sure you are using a high speed.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 01:06:15 PM
John,

I have been using the larger tungsten router bits for a while now, and I can verify that if you can get the speed up with a fine feed, they do cut rather well. I would use a lube with them though, the cutter profile isn't the same as you get with normal metal cutting bits, and so the swarf can't be cleared as fast, the lube will help prevent the swarf sticking to the cutter.

I am looking at using them as profile cutters on the lathe as well. I have yet to do any longer trials, but initially it looked very promising.

John

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 01:12:59 PM
This afternoon I got started on the 2nd crosshead. It is amazing how much quicker you can make a part when you know what you are doing ( well I sort of know what I'm doing  :lol: ) This one went quickly and I managed to get a bit better finish of the tool on this one.

Here's the 2 finished crossheads.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614116620_tvu7u-L.jpg)


Now, the observant of you may have noticed that when I made both the top-caps and the packing glands, I didnt drill them for mounting holes. Well after I finished the crossheads, and feeling a little left out of the whole "I-made-a-jig-to-drill-these-parts" party, I made a jig to help drill these parts.  :D
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614115989_YJUth-M.jpg)


The idea is to drill one hole through the relevent top plate or packing gland, insert brass pin into newly drilled hole and release vice and rotate 90degrees, retighten the vice, drill again, and then from then on just take out the pin, rotate the topcap 90 degrees insert pin again and drill.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614116144_BYcLK-M.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614116244_F3bbo-M.jpg)


The jig made it very quick to drill the holes in alignment. The jig didnt take long to make, the centering of the square block of ali' in the 4jaw took the longest.


So here is a pic of all the parts I've made so far.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614116431_wZNug-L.jpg)

As you can see, the topcaps are a little rough looking, so I may remake them at some later stage.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 01:31:31 PM
Nice one Tim,

You have discovered the time honoured way of easy indexing, using the adjacent hole as the jig. This method works perfectly for straight bar as well, if you have to have many equi spaced holes along it.

You're flying along on this build.

John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 08, 2009, 03:18:00 PM
Looking good Tim, I'd get it running then worry about "bling"  :clap: ................... but that's just my opinion, it's your engine  :thumbup:

Nice work  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 03:53:12 PM
Looking good Tim, I'd get it running then worry about "bling"  :clap:

I hadn't thought I was "blinging" it yet  :scratch: I've just been trying to get a nice finish on the parts as I make them.

I do have some "Bling" plans for it when it is built and running though  :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 08, 2009, 04:00:19 PM
Steel is always more difficult to get a nice finish on, would they work in aluminium, that would also give you the contrast but easier to polish ................. just a thought  :coffee:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 08, 2009, 04:13:05 PM
Steel is always more difficult to get a nice finish on,
CC

I'm glad you said that Steve, I was begining to think it was just me  :scratch: Some steels do seem better than others though.... :dremel:

Sorry Tim, I'm leading it  :offtopic:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 04:23:27 PM
Steel is always more difficult to get a nice finish on, would they work in aluminium, that would also give you the contrast but easier to polish ................. just a thought  :coffee:

CC

I think the problem is with the junk piece of some unknown variety of steel that I used to make the topcaps from. The 2nd one was much more consistant to cut, but the 1st one was a real swine. There was like little bands of really really hard stuff, so hard that while just taking a cut of about half the width of a gnat's hair the unknown steel just chamfered my sharpened and honed Hss tool, and after re-sharpening the tool the steel just laughed and did the very same again.
It's funny that the second topcap turned from the very same steel bar cut much easier with no tough spots or blunting of toolsteel. Maybe I'll try and make another and hope that the steel is kinder to work with.

If that doesn't work I'll probably make them out of brass, although when ( or if ) my blinging is done either brass or steel would do for achiving what I have in mind.


Sorry Tim, I'm leading it  :offtopic:


Makes a refreshing change from me leading it  :offtopic: myself  :)


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 04:46:35 PM
I think you have got the wrong end of the stick when it comes to blinging bits of scrap.

If you think my bits come off the lathe all nice and shiny, you would be a long way from the truth.

It takes longer usually to polish a part than to make it. Files, emery cloth, wet and dry, plus loads of finger aching flatting and elbow grease, and that is just to get it to looking almost nice. Every machining mark has to be removed and the surface got to a flat satin like sheen before you can proceed any further and start to polish. Otherwise you just end up with what looks like a bit of polished up scrap.

So don't think that getting a good finish by machining is the hard part, it is nice to get a good finish, but that is only the first bit.

The little wobble engine I have just blinged up could easily have been finished in a day. It took me another four days smoothing and shaping to get to the finished product.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 08, 2009, 04:56:48 PM
I'm glad you said that Steve,

Who's Steve  :scratch:

CC  ::)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 05:03:51 PM
It takes longer usually to polish a part than to make it. Files, emery cloth, wet and dry, plus loads of finger aching flatting and elbow grease, and that is just to get it to looking almost nice. Every machining mark has to be removed and the surface got to a flat satin like sheen before you can proceed any further and start to polish. Otherwise you just end up with what looks like a bit of polished up scrap.

So don't think that getting a good finish by machining is the hard part, it is nice to get a good finish, but that is only the first bit.

That's what I thought Blinging was.  :scratch:

I fully expect to spend a long time carefully sanding and buffing after I have got it running.  What I'm endevouring to do at the moment is to get just a relatively decent looking finish as I make each part, I know that I'll be doing it all again when it comes to the "Blinging" of the build, but it gives me a great sense of achievement to spend a little time removing the worse of the machining marks.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 05:27:07 PM
Tim,

Flat surfaces and flatting and rounding sticks are what you should be using, fingers are no good, they distort the surfaces too much.

Here is the finished blinged up engine of mine. A little different to what you are making, but still basically the same engine.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/custom1.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/custom3.jpg)

Maybe a little over the top, but it does show what a few changes can make to the overall look of the engine.

Get yours running first, then strip it down and do all the shiny bits afterwards. Then you know you are not wasting your time.


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 08, 2009, 05:38:00 PM
Flat surfaces and flatting and rounding sticks are what you should be using, fingers are no good, they distort the surfaces too much.

That is very true, I've found that putting a sheet of wet+dry on my granite plate to be a good means to flatten and polish up flat and even convex shapes, and using different sizes of drill shank ( not the cutting end, the smooth round end ) for concave shapes to be good too.

Your blinged up engines look really nice, :thumbup: it looks like you have milled out a seperation between the 2 cylinders, square on one and rounded on the other?

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 08, 2009, 05:47:11 PM
It is rounded on both Tim, and then I recessed the sides to take a little bit of colour.

But that shaping wasn't done until I knew the engine would run. Why waste time and effort on a none runner.


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 08, 2009, 07:08:02 PM
All Hail ..........  King of Bling

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/16sphersup.gif)

 ::)  CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 09, 2009, 10:41:36 AM
Not too much to report on today, I've only had a little time in the workshop and spent most of it just standing there wondering  :scratch:

The bit that has got me wondering is the Block mounting plate
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/614948339_bwDXt-M.jpg)


I was going to PM Bogs to ask him this, but I figured I may not be the only one who, when building this, has not got the exact materials that I thought I had, so I thought if the answer could be put into the main build log then anyone could find out.

As you can see on the plans it calls for 2-2.5mm brass or steel sheet and I thought I had some 2mm brass sheet, but it turns out after measuring a part that didnt have a beaten edge :doh: (note to self, always check to make sure when using verniers to make sure the jaws lie flat and square to the bit being measured) it is only 1.62mm (1/16") thick. Now I have got some 2.5mm ali' plate that is big enough, but before hacking my way into that I wanted to know if (1) would the 1.62mm brass be too weak/thin? and (2) if that is the case, would the ali do instead?

So If anyone has an answer please chime in and I will be eternally grateful  :bow:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 09, 2009, 11:23:37 AM
Bogs' drawing suggests not going any thinner, whether for rigidity or dimensionality I can't say.  I made my plates from 1/4" brass that was flycut a few thousands on each side. 

Note that when the plate is thinner, the piston will be higher in the cylinder at TDC, as will the valves.  You might need to do some calculations to see if that causes a problem.  You will have the weight of the block plus the steam chests supported by the four columns on the edges.  If the plate is able to flex from the weight or vibrations then binding could occur.

In short, I'd probably use the Al plate myself.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 09, 2009, 01:11:07 PM
.......In short, I'd probably use the Al plate myself.

That is what I am expecting to do, I guess I'm just vainly hoping that the brass would do. But like you say about the weight and vibrations, it'll probably be better to err on the side of caution.

Thanks Kvom  :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 09, 2009, 01:58:12 PM
Tim,

Kirk has it almost spot on. 1/16th is really a little too thin to support the weight of the whole top end, and the friction induced forces going up and down. Brass or steel was chosen for it's rigidity. Steel because it is rigid from the off, and brass after it has worked hardened, will be strong enough to do the job. I am not too sure that the ali, with it's natural softness, would be up to the job, you would have to suck it and see. 3mm ali would be much better.

If it was flat enough, you could use two layers of the brass plate, say loctited together (not soldered, that would soften the material too much). The amount of bolts holding things together on the top end would ensure it acted like a single thickness.

You will hit the same problem when the bottom plate is made. So your choice has to be made at this time.

By going thicker, the only things that really have to be taken in consideration are the bolt lengths and the four column lengths. The bolts would need to be longer than the difference in thickness from 2mm, and the columns, shorter.


John

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 09, 2009, 03:31:08 PM
Thanks John, I think I'll pick up some 2mm brass for both the top and bottom plates, I think that will be the best solution all round.

I think I was grasping at straws once I found out the brass was thinner than I thought.

Oh well, I live and learn a bit more.

Til I get my brass sheet there's a few other things I can be getting on with until I get it.


Thanks again for helping me  :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: shred on August 09, 2009, 08:27:38 PM
FWIW, mine's plates are 3mm Ali (~1/8"), and works well, but I don't think much thinner would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 09, 2009, 11:47:10 PM
There you go Tim, straight from a man who has had the experience of doing it.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 10, 2009, 04:52:43 AM
Thanks Shred, if I had some 3mm ali I would use that , but my ali is only 2.5mm and I dont want to risk it. I'll wait until I get some 2mm brass sheet.

There you go Tim, straight from a man who has had the experience of doing it.

That's what I love about this forum, there is always someone who has already done either the exact same thing or a similar thing who can share their experience with those like me who are still relatively new to machining,  :nrocks:  :mmr: :nrocks:



Thanks guys  :thumbup: :thumbup:
Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 10, 2009, 12:26:56 PM
Well I got just a little more done this afternoon.

I marked up the main block for the steam ports, and realising that they are centrally aligned and are set in the same distance from the end I decided to use my very high-tech vice stop to make drilling a lot easier. ( hey, I'm really getting into this whole "using jigs and stops to make machining easier" thing!  :headbang: ) 1st up was center drilling the 4 ports, then drilling through to the cylinder bores.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/615882513_PQ9BM-L.jpg)


Then, not yet having in my grubby little hands the 2mm brass sheet needed for the mounting plates, I skipped on a couple of steps in the plans to make some of the little things. I made the 4 crosshead rods, well, when I say I made them I just cut some 4mm stainless rod to length and then drilled and tapped one end.

Then I marked up the piston+rod assembly for cutting to length, chucked up a piston with the rod facing out of the ER32 collet and parted off to size, then did the same to the other piston assembly. Then I single pointed a M3 thread on each piston rod and finished off the thread with a M3 die.

So here is a mockup of the crosshead rods in the crossheads, along with the threaded piston assemblies also mounted in the crossheads.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/615882417_cixbk-L.jpg)


That's all for today, stay tuned for more of the same different.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 10, 2009, 01:11:35 PM
Nicely done Tim, I must say I'm impressed how you've mastered the "dark art of single point threading"   :bow: ........... the threads on the small SS rods looks very professional  :headbang: .............. before my self imposed exile from the workshop around last Christmas  :bang: I was trying to get the hang using a bit of delrin, I must get back to that  :dremel:

Thanks for the continued updates, nice to see your progress.

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 10, 2009, 02:00:47 PM
Tim,

As you gain experience, you will find yourself knocking up little jigs and fixtures to allow you to save loads of time and effort, and obtain that elusive accuracy between parts.

The mill backstop is an essential part of machining, and as you have shown, there is no need for it to be fancy, as long as it does the job.

Nice one.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 10, 2009, 02:10:23 PM
Nicely done Tim, I must say I'm impressed how you've mastered the "dark art of single point threading"   :bow: ........... the threads on the small SS rods looks very professional  :headbang: .............. before my self imposed exile from the workshop around last Christmas  :bang: I was trying to get the hang using a bit of delrin, I must get back to that  :dremel:

Well thank you good sir, but before my head swells beyond belief, I should tell you that those threads were cleaned up by running a M3 die over them, I didnt go to full depth single pointing. I also spent about half an hour hunting in vain for my newly ground up threading tool which seems to have evolved legs and the ability to deliberately hide from me  :scratch: Still havent found it, it'll probably turn up about 2.5mins after I grind up a new one.

The mill backstop is an essential part of machining, and as you have shown, there is no need for it to be fancy, as long as it does the job.

Making a mill backstop is right underneath the tailstock die holder on the "to-do" list  :thumbup: til then I make use of a spare hold-down clamp.

Thanks for following guys,
Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 10, 2009, 02:16:53 PM


Thanks for following guys,
Tim

Thanks for showing.....that quick backstop was good thinking to keep the flow..... :thumbup: :clap:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 10, 2009, 02:32:48 PM
I should tell you that those threads were cleaned up by running a M3 die over them, I didnt go to full depth single pointing. 

Nothing wrong with that imho, single pointing gets the thread square to the material, finishing off with a die just gets you to the correct depth quicker  :thumbup: ................. see ................ I know the theory  :smart:

I also spent about half an hour hunting in vain for my newly ground up threading tool which seems to have evolved legs and the ability to deliberately hide from me  :scratch: Still haven't found it, it'll probably turn up about 2.5mins after I grind up a new one.

A'int that always the way  :bang:

Keep the faith  :med:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 14, 2009, 10:47:39 AM
Well I made a little progress today (the emphasis being on "little")  I got some 2mm brass sheet and hacked off a section and then milled the 2 freshly cut edges smooth and to size. I then blued ( well, blacked actually ) one surface with layout dye ( a big black marker from tescos ) and then spent a fair bit of time marking out all the holes, remembering that I had to make an adjustment for one set of crosshead-rod-mounting-holes as I had drilled one crosshead slightly incorrectly.

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/619492138_JL6BS-L.jpg)


Just after taking that Pic I removed the piece from the vice and just made little centre punch marks ( more like "pop" marks actually ), then remounted it in the vice and drilled all the small holes. For the 2 packing gland holes I drilled out as big as I had drills ( 13mm ) and then switched to my Boring bar setup. While not ideal for this, it seemed to work ok, although a little slow. ( My boring bar is marked in imperial and I was working in metric, so progress was a little slow as I approached final diameter as I didnt want to over-shoot if I could help it )

Here's the top-plate bored out, sitting on the main cylinder block and the packing glands sitting in place.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/619492255_MxJGf-L.jpg)


Next I have to drill and tap for the packing gland / top-cap mounting holes, and drill and tap for the mounting plate holes.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 14, 2009, 11:09:43 AM
Coming along nicely Tim  :thumbup:

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 14, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
Just a reminder that the cutouts on the side of the top plate are not optional, as you need clearance for the steam chests.  The cutouts in the front and back are optional.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 14, 2009, 05:09:30 PM
Just a reminder that the cutouts on the side of the top plate are not optional, as you need clearance for the steam chests.  The cutouts in the front and back are optional.

Thanks for that Kvom, I hadn't realised that.  :thumbup: That will be next on the list to do then.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 14, 2009, 07:58:59 PM
On mine the flange of the steam chest packing gland is a little bit wider than the width of the steam chest, so I had to cut the sides a tad deaper than the edge of the block. 
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 15, 2009, 12:46:42 PM
Got a bit more done today, I started by milling out a recess on the mounting plate for the steam chests.

Then I drilled and tapped the cylinder block using a newly aquired tapping stand, I totally reccomend everyone either make or buy one, makes tapping so much easier  :thumbup:

I only drilled and tapped the bottom of the block as I've decided to remake the top-caps as I messed up the holes on them.

I then did a little assembly. After a little polishing on one piston, ( on the rod not the actual piston, as the rod was slightly oversize ( about 0.04mm ) and would not go through the packing gland ) I was able to assemble the pistons and packing glands into the cylinder, and then attach the mounting plate.

Then I assembled the crossheads and rods, and after a little fiddling and messing around, widening one set of crosshead-rod-holes a little, and ...... It slides in and out !!! (ok a little stiff, but it still works)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/620420950_NVHEN-M.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/620420806_HFccQ-M.jpg)

(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/620421102_sP44Z-M.jpg)


So next I'll be working on making 2 new top-caps, then it'll be on to the bearing blocks.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 15, 2009, 03:28:47 PM
That is really coming on well Tim.

As it said in the plans about the holes for the rods, it needs a little 'fiddle' factor to get it to move, but now you have got it, you should have no more trouble with it at all. Once you have the engine running, if you are very careful, you can in fact slacken the rods off slighty, and the engine will set the rods in it's own perfect running position, then tweak them up again while it is still running.

Once you get this engine up and running, it should give you the confidence to take on almost anything.


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 16, 2009, 12:56:26 PM
Thanks John, it did take a bit of fiddling, but it got there in the end.

Today I got started on remaking the topcaps, this time out of brass.

I started with a chunk of 22mm brass rod in the 3jaw to which I trued up the end and turned as much as could be reached down to 18mm.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/621304683_uThhU-M.jpg)


I then mounted my ER32 chuck and reversed the brass rod into it and turned the rest of it down to 18mm. Then I turned down the top of the 1st topcap to 8mm appox.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/621304834_airKZ-M.jpg)


I then extended the rod out a bit from the collet, and parted off leaving enough stock to be able to turn a spigot to fit the cylinder bore. Then I did the exact same again for the 2nd topcap. Then I remounted the topcaps in a 8mm collet ( gripping the freshly turned 8mm top of the topcaps ) to turn the spigot that would fit into the bore. I took off a fraction at a time, checking it against the cylinder bore, until it just fitted inside.

Then I got out my little jig mentioned earlier to drill the 4 holes in each of the topcaps. Then it was over to the cylinder block itself. Using the newly (re)made topcaps I marked out the positions for the mounting holes, drilled them and then tapped them M2 using my tapping stand.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/621305050_4pksv-M.jpg)


Then it was just a case of building all the parts back up again. Funnily enough, the crosshead/rod-assembly that took all the fiddling the 1st time I built it up, took almost no fiddling this time to get moving. And wouldnt you know it, the one that went together easily last time, it took ages of fiddling and enlarging of the rod mounting holes ( I hadnt enlarged this set of holes the 1st time )  :bang:

But here is what the top looks like with the newly made topcaps.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/621305293_kT2e3-L.jpg)


Next it will be the bearing blocks. I am toying with the idea of using ball races in the bearing blocks, its only 4 ball races so the cost wouldnt be too bad.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 18, 2009, 12:20:50 PM
Got a little more done on this today.

I got started on making the bearing blocks. I took some square brass bar and chopped 4 pieces off it. I put the 4 bits in the vice on some parallels.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/623351421_93w4m-M.jpg)


Now, I know that all 4 pieces came from the one bar, but I wanted to make sure that they each would be clamped tight so I put 4 little thin pieces of ali, one inbetween the moving jaw and each block. Then I tightened up the vice as tight as I could, and gently flycut the surfaces.

After a while I ended up with this,
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/623350631_ZG2hp-M.jpg)


Then I set up my very delicate and expensive vice stop, and after marking up the bearing blocks I set about center drilling and then drilling 4.8mm and then 5mm, all 4 blocks.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/623350793_cbU6x-M.jpg)


Resulting in this,
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/623351229_hSh6Z-M.jpg)


Now, getting impatient I carefully deburred the holes and whipped out a length of 5mm stainless rod and, aligning the blocks, I quickly shoved it through and immediately tried to turn it. Imagine my joy to find the rod spun freely....... But hang on, it spins a bit too freely  :scratch:

And it kinda wobbles a bit too  :scratch:

I immediately double checked the drill to make sure, yep it was 5mm. Then I checked the stainless rod with 1st calipers and then my digi micrometer,
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/623350960_bipo9-M.jpg)


 :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang:



My next move is to get some 5mm silver steel, and then check the bearing blocks. I guess I can make up the baseplate in the meantime. Oh well, just goes to show that you can't always trust 5mm stainless to actually BE 5mm.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 18, 2009, 12:31:08 PM
Hi Tim, you might also find the 5mm drill bit makes a bigger hole than 5mm..... :doh:

Reamers might be an idea here, they will be accurate. Also do you have one of those drill sets that go up in 0.1mm increments?
Not too expensive but real useful in this sort of situation...

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 18, 2009, 12:39:21 PM
Hi Tim, you might also find the 5mm drill bit makes a bigger hole than 5mm..... :doh:

Reamers might be an idea here, they will be accurate. Also do you have one of those drill sets that go up in 0.1mm increments?
Not too expensive but real useful in this sort of situation...

Yea I do have 2 sets of drills that take me from 1.0mm-6mm and 6mm-10mm in 0.1mm stages, that's what I used on this. I 1st of all drilled the holes with a 4.8mm bit and then finished off with a 5mm bit.

I do have a 5mm reamer, so I can check to see if the hole itself is oversized, and if it is oversized I can fall back on my idea of using ball races, I have some 8mm OD 5mm ID bearings that would do quite nicely. I've also left the mill set up so that if I do need to bore out the holes for bearings I can just do it without zeroing in again.

The slight wiggle I felt was just that, slight. So I'm hoping that the holes are the right size and it is just the stainless rod that is undersize.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 18, 2009, 12:41:09 PM



R.... But hang on, it spins a bit too freely  :scratch:

And it kinda wobbles a bit too  :scratch:

I immediately double checked the drill to make sure, yep it was 5mm. Then I checked the stainless rod with 1st calipers and then my digi micrometer,

My next move is to get some 5mm silver steel, and then check the bearing blocks. I guess I can make up the baseplate in the meantime. Oh well, just goes to show that you can't always trust 5mm stainless to actually BE 5mm.


Tim

Great work Tim you're really getting on with it.
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There are three main ways to make bar:- Hot rolled or black bar because its hot when they roll it its not highly stressed so won't move when you machine:- Cold rolled/drawn bright bar, they work it cold so you get lots of stresses built up in it: so when you machine and releaf the stresses it may warp:- size wise these methods produces bar thats nominally to size, Ground bar such as silver steel is ground closely to nominated size :- you can get ground mild steel bar  as well.

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 18, 2009, 12:49:55 PM
Stew, thanks for that info on bars, I'll file it away for future use  :thumbup: ............. Tim, annoying I know, but immediately your just working on sorting it out, well done  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 18, 2009, 12:57:14 PM
Thanks for that info Stew  :thumbup: and thanks for the support CC  :thumbup:

I was a bit annoyed about the undersize rod, but I'm over it now. These things happen  ::) Could be worse, I could've messed up the main cylinder block :jaw:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 18, 2009, 01:05:40 PM
Ball races sound nice........be a first on this engine I suspect..... :ddb:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 18, 2009, 03:56:51 PM
Tim,

That rod definitely looks like it is imperial, 3/16" most probably.

One thing I wouldn't suggest for the crank is silver steel. It goes rusty when you just look at the stuff. I always use ground stainless for mine.

This engine will in fact take ball races with no problems, as it utilises a built up crankshaft. But if I was going to do it, I would use needle rollers instead of ball races, unless you can get some very thin walled races. You might also find, one needle roller would do in each bearing block, as if you used races, really they would require one at each end of the block. The choice is yours of course, that was just a suggestion.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 18, 2009, 04:11:52 PM
One thing I wouldn't suggest for the crank is silver steel. It goes rusty when you just look at the stuff. I always use ground stainless for mine.

Thanks for the rust warning about silver steel  :thumbup: I didnt know that.

Quote
This engine will in fact take ball races with no problems, as it utilises a built up crankshaft. But if I was going to do it, I would use needle rollers instead of ball races, unless you can get some very thin walled races. You might also find, one needle roller would do in each bearing block, as if you used races, really they would require one at each end of the block. The choice is yours of course, that was just a suggestion.

Bogs

I have 6 ball races that might be suitable, they are 5mm inner diameter, 8mm outer diameter and about 2.5mm wide. I kinda thought that it would need a ball race at each end of the block, but I thought maybe it would be ok to go with the 2 races per block on the 2 inner bearing blocks, and then just one on each of the outer blocks (if you know what I mean). I figure that if I only part bore out the outer bearing blocks ( on the face that would not be visable when built up ) and have the face's that are on show just drilled out to, say 5.5mm, then the bearings would not be visable once the engine was assembled, but still doing their job as all the loading is on the inside of the outer bearing blocks.

Does my ramblings make any sense?


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 18, 2009, 04:20:48 PM
Tim,

I was just writing a reply to the same effect as what you just said. I think it'd be ok with just 1 per block since there are 4 of the. If you just counter bore 1 side of each block so the race has a face to sit against, as you say, just a slight clearance will be fine on the other side and you won't see the ball races once assembled.

Nick

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 18, 2009, 05:51:03 PM
Don't forget Tim, you should be using stainless races as well.

I have a lots of my own stainless races of two different sizes that I use in almost most of my models that I design and build, but for other races I want, I have found these to be very good.

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Dinball_Single-size_W0QQ_fsubZ7867793QQ_sidZ42095710QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=1

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 18, 2009, 06:01:11 PM
Don't forget Tim, you should be using stainless races as well.

I just checked and I'm pretty sure they are stainless, they are SMR85ZZ types and I think I'm right in saying the "S" indicates stainless.


Thanks for the link, :thumbup: that looks like a good resource for bearings, quite reasonable too.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on August 19, 2009, 06:01:22 AM
They are stainless, the code is a composite made up of a lot of info:

S = Stainless
MR = Straight rather than Tapered Bearing
85 = Size
No Material Code = 440C Stainless Steel
ZZ = Non removable shield on both sides.

When it comes to bearings the following page might be useful:

http://www.dynaroll.com/system.asp

Stefan.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 19, 2009, 08:00:05 AM
When it comes to bearings the following page might be useful:

http://www.dynaroll.com/system.asp

Stefan.

Thanks Stefan  :thumbup: Good link that. Another one for the growing number of bookmarks.  :coffee:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 19, 2009, 11:29:38 AM
I started today working on the bearing blocks. I have decided to go with ball races, here they are nest to the blocks,
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/624330484_XsWej-M.jpg)


With the mill still set up from drilling the bearing blocks I 1st of all drilled through each block with a 5.5mm drill to give clearance, being careful to clean the vice, parallels and vice stop between each operation to make sure the blocks went in the vice in exactly the same position.

Then I mounted a 7.5mm drill, set up a depth stop and drilled both sides of 2 bearing blocks and one side of each of the other 2 bearing blocks. ( when drilling the double sided ones I was careful to deburr each side before re-clamping to drill the other side, drilling seemed to raise a burr that I fear could've thrown off the accuracy )
I then followed up with a 8mm endmill to finish off both the diameter and the depth.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/624330621_a53Kz-M.jpg)


Here they are in the bearing blocks,
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/624330766_z66KN-M.jpg)


This leads me to a (hopefully) minor question, The ball races slip quite nicely into the freshly bored pockets but they are not a press fit, do I need to fix them in some way, maybe a tiny dab of Loctite?


Anyway, I then marked, drilled and tapped the mounting holes on the bearing blocks. Then I turned down the bosses on the bearing blocks. I turned bosses on both sides of the inner bearing blocks, and just the one face ( the one facing inwards ) of each of the outer bearing blocks.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/624330277_2ipEY-M.jpg)


Next up will be the bottom mounting plate.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: rleete on August 19, 2009, 11:53:04 AM
This leads me to a (hopefully) minor question, The ball races slip quite nicely into the freshly bored pockets but they are not a press fit, do I need to fix them in some way, maybe a tiny dab of Loctite?

Yes.  If the races spin in the pocket, it will not be running on the bearings.  Then, it will wear on the sides of the pocket.  Not good.

It shouldn't have to be a tight (press) fit, but a drop of loctite won't hurt.  Don't use anything high-strength or semi-permanent.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 19, 2009, 12:29:21 PM
Very nice indeed..... :thumbup:...yes use a loctite type product, but maybe wait until you are nearing completion just in case  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 19, 2009, 12:34:19 PM
On mine the eccentrics touch the outer bearing sides;  I have bosses there too.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bernd on August 19, 2009, 03:08:45 PM
Tim,

I'd wait till you've got the crankshaft in to loctite the bearings. If there loose this will help align them better.

Bernd
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 19, 2009, 03:29:22 PM
Thanks Rleete, Darren and Bernd, that's a good point. I'll wait til I've got everything running right before sticking the bearings in place.  :thumbup: :thumbup:

On mine the eccentrics touch the outer bearing sides;  I have bosses there too.

Are the eccentrics on the the very outer faces? I have made bosses on the inner faces of the outer bearing blocks, just not on the outer faces of the outer blocks. ( is it just me or have I just confused myself  :scratch: )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 19, 2009, 03:59:47 PM
I made bosses on all sides on mine, eight bosses....See...nearly got to ten....one day..... :ddb:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 19, 2009, 04:45:22 PM
Tim,

you will probably find that when you have the weight of the crankshaft in there the outer race won't spin in its housing as there will be more friction there than there is between the outer and inner race. Nevertheless, I would probably loctite in, or I have heard people just put a couple of centre pops around the inside of the pocket .. but that might be a bodgers way of doing it?!

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: rleete on August 19, 2009, 05:03:36 PM
Considering it's how the bearing was held in on my truck's A/C, it must be okay.  Harder to remove, should the need arise, though.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 19, 2009, 05:05:13 PM
I have heard people just put a couple of centre pops around the inside of the pocket .. but that might be a bodgers way of doing it?!   

If it works it's not a bodge  ..................... well that's one way of looking at it ............. I'd go with the loctite personally, it's fairly easy to warm up and break the seal if you ever need to take it apart in the future.

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 19, 2009, 06:11:33 PM
Tim,

Quote
Are the eccentrics on the the very outer faces? I have made bosses on the inner faces of the outer bearing blocks, just not on the outer faces of the outer blocks. ( is it just me or have I just confused myself )

If you fit bearings, you should not have anti friction flanges on the blocks, but on the component parts that are in contact with the bearings, crank discs, eccentrics. They need to be the same diameter as the ball race inner race, and only need to be a couple of thou thick, that is to prevent the component rubbing against both the inner and outer races. Sometimes, the inner race is minutely longer than the outer race for just such a situation, but not always. So you will have to measure them to see if the inner is protruding slightly. If it is, you should be able to get away with not having to cut the friction flanges on the parts.

I hope I haven't confused you even more.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 20, 2009, 03:10:55 AM
Tim,
.......
I hope I haven't confused you even more.

No, that has cleared things up nicely, thank you  :thumbup:

I have already cut the flanges on the bearing blocks, but only on the faces that would not normally be seen when all's assembled, so I dont think it will make much difference. I didnt know about making the flange/boss on the other componant faces, but I have made a mental note to do that when making the eccentrics and crank discs. ( assuming that the inner race is not protruding )


Thanks again guys for your help, this place rocks  :nrocks: :mmr: :nrocks:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 20, 2009, 07:52:40 AM
To clarify my earlier post, the right eccentric is outside the bearing, not the left (flywheel side).
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 20, 2009, 08:01:24 AM
To clarify my earlier post, the right eccentric is outside the bearing, not the left (flywheel side).

You are right indeed, I've just looked a little closer on the plans and see that as you say the right eccentric is outside of the bearing block. I'll have to turn a boss on that bearing block as I dont have a ball race on the outside of that bearing block.

Thanks Kvom for that  :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 21, 2009, 12:11:12 PM
I got a little more done today, started off by hacksawing a piece of 2mm brass for the baseplate, then sized it up on the mill. Then I slathered it with layout dye and marked it up.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/626100368_R94ru-M.jpg)


Then it was over to the mill and I drilled all the 3mm holes and then all the 2.5mm holes, then I mounted the bearing blocks and marked up for the cutouts. Over to the mill again to mill out the cutouts.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/626099898_oorqp-M.jpg)


The obligatory posed shot
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/626100158_aXY67-M.jpg)


Th-th-th-that's all folks ( for today anyway )

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 21, 2009, 01:37:15 PM
The obligatory posed shot

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/biggthumpup.gif) Love it

Progressing nicely there Tim  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on August 22, 2009, 09:10:08 PM
excellent build  :beer:

i was wondering were i can get the plans for this engine??

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NorthOf40 on August 22, 2009, 09:20:30 PM
Hi Chuck,

Bogstandard posted a couple links to his engine in this tread http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1261.0

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on August 22, 2009, 09:32:42 PM
thanks jim  :beer:

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NorthOf40 on August 22, 2009, 09:37:05 PM
Yer welcome :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: arnoldb on August 23, 2009, 07:37:03 AM
Good looking build Tim  :clap:
Cheers, Arnold
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 23, 2009, 01:39:02 PM
Thanks CC, Chuck and Arnold for your comments  :thumbup:

I got a little more done today, somewhere inside both of these lumps of brass there are 4 crankwebs and a flywheel, my mission, should I choose to accept it, is to find them.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/627787471_DECry-M.jpg)


So I hacked off a length of the long bar and chucked it in the lathe, faced it and turned it down to 28mm. Then I centre drilled and then drilled through progressively to 4.9mm drills, then finished it off with a 5mm reamer. (I guess this was a little overkill but I thought is would result in a good fit for the crankshaft)

I then chucked a 4.5mm drill in the tailstock the wrong way around and just positioned it so that it just stuck into the hole in the brass bar. Then I parted off a 5mm section, and rather than it dropping into the swarf it just got caught on the backwards drill. Then repeat for the other crankwebs.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/627786448_NBzVW-L.jpg)


Then, after de-burring the parted off crank-webs, it was time to make another jig for drilling the holes for the big end pin and the little compression-hinging-hole-thingy. I made the jig as per the instructions in the plans. I drilled all the 2.5mm holes first, then using the pin to lock the disc I repositioned the x-axis and drilled all the 4mm holes.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/627786825_5oY7r-L.jpg)


And so I ended up with this,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/627787201_BVjMF-L.jpg)


You may notice that one of the crankwebs is not as good as the others. When parting off the carriage moved slightly, but it's not too bad ( a blind man on a galloping horse would never notice  :lol: ) I think I might be able to salvage it.


Next I will be milling the crankwebs and also turning the flywheel.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on August 23, 2009, 01:52:32 PM
Good job Tim!

Hoping I'll get back out for a little more shop time before you finish this build!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 23, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
Good job Tim!

Hoping I'll get back out for a little more shop time before you finish this build!

Thanks Stefan, you know you are always welcome to come and play with use the machines  :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 23, 2009, 02:49:54 PM
Tim, this is really coming along nicely!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 23, 2009, 03:06:12 PM
Thanks Nick  :thumbup: I'm really enjoying this build, I'm learning so much. I'm also learning a lot about the limitations and flaws in my mill and lathe. I think once this is finished I will be doing a few mods to both the mill and especially the lathe.

Oh oh!!  :proj: strikes again  :)

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: rleete on August 23, 2009, 09:11:10 PM
You may notice that one of the crankwebs is not as good as the others.

Put a healthy chamfer on all of them, and you'll never know.  We will, but we won't hold it against ya!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 24, 2009, 11:45:32 AM
Got a little bit more done today, spent a bit of time hunting around for a 0.5mm shim for setting up for milling the balanced areas of the crankwebs. Spent about 15mins, but came up with nothing. Then I remembered the set of feeler gauges that I got years ago when I was building some guitars, ok they were imperial, but with the help of a digi-mic I was able to sort out 2 pairs of feeler gauges that equaled 0.5mm.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/628866860_KdWn4-M.jpg)


After milling both sides I cut the slot on each crankweb. Then I drilled, counterbored and tapped M2.5 for the clamping screw.

Then I turned down some brass to make the flywheel.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/628866680_XKbZh-M.jpg)


Next is finishing off the flywheel, I'm a little undecided as to doing a lot to the visual design of it as, looking at pictures of the finished engine, the flywheel is not as obvious as some other engines.

So that's as far as I got today.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 24, 2009, 11:50:40 AM
God damn you Tim.....why do all your parts look so good...... :lol:

Stanley blade is 0.5mm thick, that's what I used.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 24, 2009, 11:54:08 AM
God damn you Tim.....why do all your parts look so good...... :lol:

I think someone needs to go to specsavers  :lol:

Quote
Stanley blade is 0.5mm thick, that's what I used.... :thumbup:

Now where were you a few hours ago, I've got about 4-5 packs of them sitting on a shelf.  :doh:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on August 24, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
To be fair to me Tim, gotta be fair to me....it's in my project log...... :thumbup:

But glad you found a way, gives others a second option dunit..... :dremel:



(walks away shaking his head thinking "who doesn't have a pack of new Stanley blades"   :lol: :lol: :lol:)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 24, 2009, 12:10:25 PM
If your experience will be anything like mine, you will eventually spend a lot of time turning/adjusting the crank by pushing on the webs.  So my advice is to debur all the sharp edges on those webs.  Your fingers will thank you.   :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 24, 2009, 12:13:14 PM
To be fair to me Tim, gotta be fair to me....it's in my project log...... :thumbup:


Ahh, I see. ( where's the embarrassed smiley ) But to be fair to me, and you know you just have to be fair to me  :lol:, I do have the memory capability of a "mentally challenged" goldfish.

Quote
But glad you found a way, gives others a second option dunit..... :dremel:

(says in a loud authoritative voice) "And that's exactly the reason I did it"

( walks away hoping everyone believes it  :lol: )

If your experience will be anything like mine, you will eventually spend a lot of time turning/adjusting the crank by pushing on the webs.  So my advice is to debur all the sharp edges on those webs.  Your fingers will thank you.   :thumbup:

Thanks Kvom, my fingers thank you for that wise tip  :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 24, 2009, 12:44:40 PM
where's the embarrassed smiley

He's here Tim ......... (http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/rdo.gif) 

and just in case ............. here's his mate, "Foot in Mouth" smiley ............  (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/Foot_Mouth.gif) ............ which is one I need a lot  :scratch:

Nice work btw, as usual  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 24, 2009, 12:48:56 PM
where's the embarrassed smiley

He's here Tim ......... (http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/rdo.gif) 

and just in case ............. here's his mate, "Foot in Mouth" smiley ............  (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/Foot_Mouth.gif) ............ which is one I need a lot  :scratch:

Nice work btw, as usual  :beer:

CC

Thanks CC, I could make use of those smiley's a lot.  :lol:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on August 24, 2009, 12:57:43 PM
No prob's Tim, I try and keep a few in stock, just for special occasions etc ..........  (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/popc1.gif)  (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/t_lowblow.gif)  (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/doh0715.gif)

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 24, 2009, 02:03:45 PM
Tim,

The flywheel is small on this engine, in fact, flywheels are not really necessary on most of these small double acting engines.

It is there just to help it thru any self induced dead spots (timing not set up perfectly) and assist in keeping the engine at a constant speed when being loaded by say a propellor. But on a single acting one like a wobbler, they are necessary to get the engine onto the next power stroke.

It does help having the flywheel lightened towards the centre, as it then puts more force into the outer periphery of the wheel, similar to a gyroscope. So even a few holes or recesses do help.

John

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 24, 2009, 02:14:07 PM
It is there just to help it thru any self induced dead spots (timing not set up perfectly)
In that case a flywheel on my engine will be essential, especially when I start setting the timing, I've never timed anything before.

Quote
It does help having the flywheel lightened towards the centre, as it then puts more force into the outer periphery of the wheel, similar to a gyroscope. So even a few holes or recesses do help.
Enough said, I'll see if I can drill a few holes to move the weight towards the outsides.


Thanks John  :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 24, 2009, 04:45:34 PM
Presume the crank journals set 90 degrees apart on this engine? Do you have a method of achieving this or just by eye?

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 25, 2009, 12:49:08 PM
Presume the crank journals set 90 degrees apart on this engine? Do you have a method of achieving this or just by eye?

Nick

Hi Nick, yes, as I understand it ( and that is quite a statement  :lol: ) the cranks are set at 90degrees. I think that it is set by trial and error ( in my case, probably more error than trial :bang: ) I could be in error in saying that, I have read through the plans a few times but I have the memory of a fish.

I got a bit more done today, worked on the flywheel recess.

I started off by re mounting the flywheel in the 3jaw, I wasnt too worried about it being precisely concentric. I ground up a new Hss blank to do the job and then had at it.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/629963983_i3N3c-M.jpg)

I then changed tools to a 6mm round profile and put a little radius to take the sharp edges off.


Then I had to tackle putting the 3 holes in the flywheel. This meant breaking out the rotary table. I now have yet another item on my "To Make" list, as I need a means to attach my 3jaw self-centering chuck to the rotary table. But until then I have to make do with a slightly more convoluted means of attaching items to it.

So then, how does one secure a round item, ie my flywheel, to the Ro-Tab and get it centred up?

Well this is how I did it, there's probably many other ways, and maybe easier ones too  :lol:
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/629964290_xWiUR-L.jpg)

I eyeballed the flywheel into the center and attached with 2 clamps, but only tightened them thumb tight. Then mount a Dti on a mag base mounted on the table, with the finger set against the inside of the 5mm mounting hole. Then just rotate the table and "bump" the flywheel ( or whatever you are centering ) until the Dti reads the same all the way round the flywheel, or within reason ( I haven't finished the outer edge of the flywheel yet, so it still has some marks which bounced the Dti needle a bit, but I just got the reading at an average all the way round it )

Then drilled the three 4mm holes at 120degrees spacing.

Then I drilled and tapped m3 for the securing screw.


And this is the resulting flywheel,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/629963779_zyfVS-M.jpg)


That's all I got done today.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 25, 2009, 02:37:06 PM
Tim,

I don't think there is anything in the writeup about how to get the cranks at 90 degs to each other.

But it is easy enough to do by setting one vertical and lining up the other by eyeball against say the edge of the baseplate. As long as it is near enough, the engine will run perfectly. They could be up to about 5 degs out either way, and it would still run OK.

The secret is to tighten up all the crankwebs and pins except for one at the centre bearing position, then once that is in position, tweak it up and everything should be in line. The critical bit is the 90 degree lead on the eccentrics for the timing, and if you took my advice and marked a line on the eccentric, that makes it much easier. Each end is timed individually, to the crank nearest the steam chest, that is why the crank position isn't so critical. That is ok for a piston valve engine, but not for a slide valve twin.

Hope that hasn't confused too much.

John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 25, 2009, 04:00:14 PM
I don't think there is anything in the writeup about how to get the cranks at 90 degs to each other.
Well that would be why I cant remember reading it then  :lol:

Quote
But it is easy enough to do by setting one vertical and lining up the other by eyeball against say the edge of the baseplate. As long as it is near enough, the engine will run perfectly. They could be up to about 5 degs out either way, and it would still run OK.

The secret is to tighten up all the crankwebs and pins except for one at the centre bearing position, then once that is in position, tweak it up and everything should be in line.
That sounds like a good plan to follow, thanks  :thumbup:

Quote
The critical bit is the 90 degree lead on the eccentrics for the timing, and if you took my advice and marked a line on the eccentric, that makes it much easier. Each end is timed individually, to the crank nearest the steam chest, that is why the crank position isn't so critical. That is ok for a piston valve engine, but not for a slide valve twin.
I havent made the eccentrics yet, but when I do I will make sure to mark a line as the plans call for  :thumbup:

Quote
Hope that hasn't confused too much.

No, that has cleared things up quite nicely.

I just have to say that I really appreciate your advice and helping me out, it is good enough of you to have taken the time to write the plans in such a clear and easily-followable format and make it freely available to all, but you go beyond the call and carry on giving advice and tips to help others out. I really really appreciate that   :thumbup:


Thanks again,
Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 28, 2009, 12:05:05 PM
Got a bit more done, started work on the crankshaft rods, I only had 5mm stainless ( got some 4mm stainless rod on the way ) so I just cut the 3 lengths of the 5mm, sized them on the lathe and then polished them while still on the lathe with some wet-n-dry.

Then I set up the spin indexer on the mill and milled the 2 flats on the longer 5mm rod, and then the flat on the other one.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/632629992_34B5Q-L.jpg)


Then I moved on to the eccentrics, I grabbed some steel and chucked it on the lathe. Turned it down to 18mm and installed the 4mm groove's on each eccentric.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/632625555_tBEhG-M.jpg)

The next step will be drilling the offset hole and then drilling and tapping for the fixing screw.


Tim


edit: If anyone wants to see larger versions of the pictures click Here (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 29, 2009, 12:56:34 PM
Got a bit more done today, got some 4mm stainless rod so I cut off 2 pieces for the big end pins.

Then I turned to the eccentrics, and the slight problem as how to hold them in order to drill the offset hole in both of them. It occured to me to try clamping my little 3 jaw self-centering chuck directly onto the mill table, and what do you know, it worked!!
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/633488245_D5sPX-L.jpg)

Then after drilling both, it was back over to the lathe to re-mount them using a 5mm rod that was tapped M3 and a M3 screw.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/633488441_Cyyfn-M.jpg)


After a little turning
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/633488573_mMyoA-M.jpg)


One lesson I have learned is to keep your mouth in the closed condition when turning steel (or other metals too), if you think the little chips are a bit hot on your bare arms, wait til you get one shoot into your mouth  :bugeye:

Anyway, after that I drilled and tapped the fixing holes, then I discovered that I dont have any M3 grub screws left, so at the moment the eccentrics are fixed by faith. Being the excitable type I quickly assembled the bottom plate, bearing blocks with ball races, crank assembly (in my hurry I mounted one of the crank webs the opposite way round to the others, it doesnt make a real differance I think, but it looks a bit odd) and flywheel and eccentrics.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/633488783_QZuBx-L.jpg)

Whoo hoo!! It's starting to look more like an engine and less like a collection of parts  :headbang:

Next will be the support posts I think  :scratch:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 29, 2009, 01:34:51 PM
don't forget the oil holes on the tops of the bearings.   :clap:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 29, 2009, 02:01:11 PM
don't forget the oil holes on the tops of the bearings.   :clap:

Do I still need these as I'm using ball races?  :scratch:

If necessary I can add them when I bling up the bearing blocks.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 29, 2009, 02:09:24 PM
Tim,

Very nice indeed.

I thought I showed how to drill the offset holes using the vice on the mill and a backstop. I do all my offset drilling by that method, it is much more accurate than playing about with a four jaw. Such a long time ago now, I just can't remember all the details I wrote.

If you had bearings at either end of the blocks, ie 2 per block, then yes you would put an oil hole in between them, as it would lubricate both, but as you only have one in each, then the oil will drain away without going thru the bearing, so there is no point in putting oiling holes in.


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 29, 2009, 02:29:03 PM
I thought I showed how to drill the offset holes using the vice on the mill and a backstop. I do all my offset drilling by that method, it is much more accurate than playing about with a four jaw. Such a long time ago now, I just can't remember all the details I wrote.

I think you did show that, but my issue was holding the eccentrics firm and square, I wasn't confident about just holding them in the vice as my Vee blocks are too large to use in my vice ( or rather my vice is a bit too small and the vee blocks are a little too big)

Anyway, it only took 2mins to clamp the 3jaw self-centering chuck to the mill, and that held them secure and square.

Quote
If you had bearings at either end of the blocks, ie 2 per block, then yes you would put an oil hole in between them, as it would lubricate both, but as you only have one in each, then the oil will drain away without going thru the bearing, so there is no point in putting oiling holes in.

I have 2 races on each of the two central bearing blocks, so I could put in the oil holes in those. I have got some more of these bearings coming from the ebay supplier you gave the link to, so I could install the extra bearings on the outer bearing blocks as well if needed. That would challenge me to accurately bore out for the ballraces to match and keep concentricity with the existing bore.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on August 29, 2009, 04:29:30 PM
looking good tim  :clap:

i have been looking at the plans/book that i downloaded and i like what i see...............if i just had more spare time  :doh:

keep up the good work  :beer:

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on August 29, 2009, 04:36:14 PM
I'm curious to know how the bearings are working out.  Is the crank pretty "free spinning", or is there still a bit of friction?
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 29, 2009, 04:52:13 PM
I'm curious to know how the bearings are working out.  Is the crank pretty "free spinning", or is there still a bit of friction?
They are pretty free at the moment, and I have done absolutely nothing to the bearing blocks apart from boring the holes. No lapping or anything. I have a bit of friction with one bearing block when it is clamped down tight. I cant lap the bearing blocks as when boring out for the ball races the bore's do not go all the way through  ( if you know what I mean ). I might get all the bearing blocks clamped together with ball races installed and a 5mm rod through them, and then gently polish the bottom with some wet-n-dry on my granite surface plate to see if that will reduce that friction.

Having said that, it is only when that particular block is tightened up well that the friction appears, so I reckon that whatever differences that exists between the blocks can only be very slight. With that block's mounting screws just slightly loosened up the crank is quite free spinning. I have some edges of the bottom plate that need filing to give a better clearance for the crank-webs, and without the eccentrics having a grub screw to fix them, they tend to rub and cause a bit of friction too.


Tim


EDIT

Since this post I have bored the bearing blocks completely thru @8mm, and then Lapped them as per the plans, but using a length of 8mm ground stock and some T-Cut. This has made the whole bearing/crankshaft assembly exceedingly free and smooth, even with the bearing blocks completely tightened down.

If I was to do it again I would just bore the bearing blocks all the way thru at the required diameter for the ball races, if needed you can always make up a little packing bush to seperate the 2 ball races in each block.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: arnoldb on August 29, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
Tim, you're doing well  :clap: and  :bow:

I'm scared - very, very scared... - I think you are infecting me with  :proj:    :doh: :doh:  :bang: :bang: :bang:

 :beer: , Arnold
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 30, 2009, 02:16:35 AM
Thanks Arnold  :thumbup:
I'm scared - very, very scared... - I think you are infecting me with  :proj: 


Dont be scared,  :proj: is nothing to be afraid of, just keep a healthy stock of barstock and keep making chips  :dremel:  :lol:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on August 30, 2009, 03:21:44 AM
Tim,

For the low block, just shim it up with layers of bacofoil, it might only need one or two. But get it before you have done the Sunday roast in it, less crinkles.

If you start to try bringing the others down to match the low one, you just might make it even worse.

John



Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 01, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
Tim,

For the low block, just shim it up with layers of bacofoil, it might only need one or two. But get it before you have done the Sunday roast in it, less crinkles.

If you start to try bringing the others down to match the low one, you just might make it even worse.

John

That's a good point, I'll try the tinfoil shims  :thumbup:


I got a little more done today, I got some temporary ( unless I can't come up with a fancy blingy design ) columns. Nothing fancy here, just some plain stainless rod cut to length and then tapped m3 at each end.
Then I cut up a couple of pieces of 4mm stainless for the Little end pins and single pointed one end of each piece m3, then cut a small slot for a screwdriver in the other end.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/636761797_Emyem-M.jpg)


Then I got excited again and assembled the top and bottom
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/636762085_nzZ2M-M.jpg)

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/636762341_gXb8t-M.jpg)


It's looking more like an engine now  :D :D

Next will be the con-rods and then on to the steam chests.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: arnoldb on September 01, 2009, 04:14:43 PM
Quote
It's looking more like an engine now
Very true Tim  :thumbup: - looking good!

 :beer: Arnold
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 01, 2009, 05:18:03 PM
Wow Tim, it's looking great. To be honest, I'd probably leave the columns too - but that's just boring old me! :lol:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on September 01, 2009, 09:44:12 PM
thanks for the film canister in the picture, it really shows just how small the engine is  :bugeye:

the columns look fine just the way there are................but it's your engine build so the sky is the limit  :thumbup: :clap: :ddb: :ddb:

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 02, 2009, 02:56:01 PM
Thanks for the encouragement guys  :thumbup: :thumbup:

Got a couple of hours in the workshop today, started on the con-rods. I decided to try a little something different and used some brass Hex rod. I then marked up for drilling the 2 holes. I set up and drilled the 1st hole in both con-rods before repositioning the y-axis using the dial to make sure the spacing would be exact.

While I was worrying about getting the holes precisely at the right distance I neglected to make sure the hole's were exactly on centre on the flat of the Hex  :bang: But it should be ok, I cant notice it with my eyes closed  :lol:

Here's a pic of the setup for drilling, I dont have a hex collet so this was the best way of holding the hex bar to drill perpendicular to the flat of the hex. I squared up the hex rod with a small square and then tightened the vice up.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/637671179_WFGY5-M.jpg)


I then made up a little filing button ( my first forray into the world of filing buttons  :dremel: ) and then used it to round over one end of each con-rod.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/637671320_JkvFA-M.jpg)


After that I only had a few mins left before I was called to do "more important things", so I cut down some 19mm square brass bar for the 2 steam chests and milled them to length. Next time I'll be breaking out the little flycutter to bring them down to the final dimensions, and then the fun starts when I start boring it out.


Tim

EDIT

Since getting this engine to run I have found a number of places that can cause friction, one of which is my design of Con-rod would tend to catch on the crank-webs. But the fix was very simple. I just put a m4 threaded rod in the chuck and placed the crankshaft end of the conrod over it and tightened a nut to hold it on. Then I just shaved about 0.5mm off the side of the conrod to leave a little boss. Then flip the conrod over and do the same.

This really helped ease the friction and catching issues with the conrods.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on September 02, 2009, 03:25:28 PM
Nice work Tim
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Good to see you getting into the mystery of buttons, no mystery really just a nice simple way to get a neat rad.

Good thread well explained and great pics

Keep up the good work

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 09, 2009, 12:21:25 PM
Well I left you all on the edge of your seats ( you were all on the edge of your seats, right?  :lol: ) The small delay in the build was caused by some "Man-Flu".

Anyway, I started off today by flycutting the steam-chests down to size, then I marked up the Datum end and drilled the hole for the spool valve using progressively larger drills until I got to 5.9mm.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/644118899_2bH8V-M.jpg)


Then after marking up one side for the steam inlet flanges I set up a stop on the vice and drilled the 1st hole on each block, using a vice stop ment that it was easy to find the 1st hole, drill it and then swop over the steam-chests to drill the same hole in both without having to measure and re-check. Then it was just a case of winding on the x-axis the right amount for each hole.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/644119147_SV9j2-M.jpg)


Both chests
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/644119460_BaTGW-L.jpg)

I was about to start on drilling the other side, but I was feeling a little tired and didnt want to muck it up so I called it a day.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 10, 2009, 03:35:55 AM
Great progress Tim! Hope you made a good recovery from the Man-Flu, awful thing that!

Slightly  :offtopic: Your photos are always so good. Did you say you were using a DSLR? Sure there was another thread on it? The wife is hankoring after a better camera so I immediately said DSLR then realised I know nothing about photography! There are these bridging cameras that fill the gap now, are they any good? If I went halves with her, sure I could put it to good use in the workshop!

I need to get used to flycutting, I'm sceptical now whether it'll be rigid enough in my ER collet chuck as it protrues quite a bit from the spindle. I might have to get a 1/2" finger collet just for that job.

Well done, coming along nicely.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 10, 2009, 04:12:20 AM
Slightly  :offtopic: Your photos are always so good. Did you say you were using a DSLR? Sure there was another thread on it? The wife is hankoring after a better camera so I immediately said DSLR then realised I know nothing about photography! There are these bridging cameras that fill the gap now, are they any good? If I went halves with her, sure I could put it to good use in the workshop!

Yea there's a thread in the "How to" section on taking photos in the workshop. I do use a Dslr, a canon 400D, but, as I said in the how-to thread, the key to a good photo is good light, unfortunately something that isnt always found in a workshop. Hence I use a powerful flash mounted on my camera, but I "bounce" the flash by pointing the flash up to the (slightly dirty white) ceiling thereby creating a nice flat even light for the picture.

Those bridge cameras are very good too, my advice would be to read up as much as you can on them before buying, find one that suits your needs, then go into a jessops or some such and try it out.

Quote
I need to get used to flycutting, I'm sceptical now whether it'll be rigid enough in my ER collet chuck as it protrues quite a bit from the spindle. I might have to get a 1/2" finger collet just for that job.

I flycut using my ER32 collet, I have a set of 3 flycutters but I've only sharpened up 1 of them for use, the smallest one (it has a tip swing diameter of about 2" ) and have found no problem with rigididididididity. It leaves a lovely silky smooth finish.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 10, 2009, 06:52:33 AM
Cheers Tim,

Will have a look at the thread. Will do that (reading up), I do that for everything I buy, but the wife isn't so patient! I did say we'd go into jessops, went into comet but a shop that specialises in cameras will be able to give better advice and being able to try them is a must.

Great, will definitely be using flycutter for facing cuts in future then. I think I've only tried the small one too. My mill seems to be trammed in pretty well so should be fine, couldn't notice any ridge or step when using the big end mill.

Nick

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 12, 2009, 03:15:21 PM
Well I started off today by drilling the thru-holes for attaching the steamchests and for the steam porting, and then tapping the inlet flange fixing holes.

Then it was time to use a 6mm machine reamer to clean up and finish off the piston valve bore's. Prior to this I have only used hand reamers that kinda centre themselves just using a tap wrench to turn them. However, machine reamers are a different kettle of fish ( or so I am led to believe ) they need to be accurately aligned to the bore.

This was still a new experience for me, mounting a previously drilled item back into the vice and then centering it accurately to the spindle. So this is how I did it.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/647112316_TZ7wR-L.jpg)

I mounted a Dti in the chuck but offset it slightly on its mounting so that the spindle can be turned 360 degrees and the finger will still stay in contact with the wall of said hole. Then by sweeping it round and nudging the x and y axis until the needle stays still through a whole revolution. Then lock up the axis and  :doh: watch the needle deflect, unlock axis and estimate deflection and then compensate and then re-lock. I managed to get it to within 0.005mm which I thought was ok.


This may be a little  :offtopic: but I thought I'd just share a little thing I do when removing or changing tools on my little mill. I dont know if I'm the only one, but when changing tools it seems like you need about 4-5 hands, one to hold the tool in position, one to hold the spindle lock and one to tighten up the chuck, and if that is not hard enough, when it comes to remove the tool, say an end mill, you have one hand holding the spindle lock, the other is pulling on the spanner to loosen the chuck, then as soon as you loosen the chuck by what seems like a gnat's whisker, said end mill drops at the speed of light and drops on the vice chipping at least 2 of the cutting edges/teeth, whereupon the endmill will bounce onto the concrete floor. Do this a couple of times and it can get kinda expensive. So this is what I do.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/647111690_jDPgR-M.jpg)

Just lower the mill's head and rest the tool on a sacrificial piece of ali so that the tool cannot fall completely out of the chuck.

I'm sure that all you experienced machinests out there do this or an even better method, but this is new for me.


Anyway, back on topic.


Then I broke the whole engine assembly down to bits as soon I would need to work on the main block to drill and tap for the steam chests. That done I milled away some decorational clearances at the top of the steam chests. I still have a little shaping to do to these as can be seen from the hatched markings. This is just a rough marking, I reckon I can't go quite up to the line as it may break into the main bore of the piston valve, but this gives a rough idea of what I'd like to achieve.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/647111904_Q9w4o-M.jpg)

Then Stefan (Spynapples) popped round and gave me a helping hand.

Together we rough cut some 2mm brass sheet for the steam chest blanking plates, then we milled them into shape, and then we milled a 3rd one to replace the rather diamond shaped one we cut earlier without properly squaring it.  :bang:

Then, lacking some superglue to temporarily hold the blanking plates to the chests, we used an engineers clamp ( at least thats what I think its called ) to clamp the plate to the chest and then spotted thru to mark the holes, then we drilled both plates.

Then it was on to drilling the main block for the steam chests. With the lack of superglue spontainiously appearing in the workshop, and with the whole block and steam chest arrangement being too long to use my engineering clamps on, we mounted the assembly into the vice, carefully lining everything up while tightening up the vice. ( having an extra pair of hands was very helpful here )

But this meant that we could only spot thru on the upper mounting holes, this we did on both ends of the block. Then we drilled and tapped the 2 upper holes of both ends. Then we were able to mount the steam-chests using the top mounting holes with some M2.5 screws and then when all aligned up right we spotted thru the bottom mounting holes, and then drilled and tapped those holes.

Finally after all that we ended up with this.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/647112128_NT3xE-L.jpg)


That's as far as we got as the call of the wild inturupted, well the call of our stomachs anyway  :lol:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: arnoldb on September 12, 2009, 05:23:04 PM
Good progress Tim  :thumbup:

Cheers  :)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on September 12, 2009, 05:33:46 PM
Tim,

Very nice indeed, you are really showing so nice machining in this post. Logical and straightforwards, with no rushing.

It is always easier with another pair of hands to assist. When I was making my engines, I had to use anything I could to help. I was working in those days with my left hand and two fingers on my right, with my right forearm swivelling from the waist, as the top of my arm was immobile. Hence superglue and other little tricks.

John

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 12, 2009, 05:49:28 PM
Thanks Arnold and Bogs :thumbup:

Logical and straightforwards, with no rushing.

I am absolutely no good under pressure, I perform best when under absolutely no pressure at all. So when in the workshop I always try to take my time, I find its always quicker to do a task slowly than to do it quickly twice.

Quote
It is always easier with another pair of hands to assist.
That is very true, and I was very grateful for Stefan's help today, especially in setting up for spotting thru the steam-chests.

Quote
Hence superglue and other little tricks.

It is a great tip, using superglue, when I was woodturning a lot I used to use hot-melt-glue a lot in the same way for tempory holding.

I keep meaning to pick up some superglue, everytime I come out of the store I have everything else I didnt go in for but not the one thing I went in for :bang:

Stefan's promised me he has some that he will bring the next time he comes over.  :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: ozzie46 on September 12, 2009, 06:01:52 PM
Looking good Tim, You will have a runner shortly I betcha.

 Ron
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on September 12, 2009, 06:18:04 PM
As for the reamer, I would have done the following:

1) Chuck the drill in the mill

2) Slide the part's hole onto the drill.  This will align it vertically

3) With the part still on the drill, maneuver the table so that the part is flush with the fixed jaw of the vise

4) Clamp the vise onto the part.

Replace the drill bit with the reamer and carry on.

Of course, it's almost always better to ream a hole while it's clamped in the vise at the same time it's drilled.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on September 12, 2009, 06:59:00 PM
this build is moving along real well   :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

it won't be long and you will be finished  :beer:

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on September 13, 2009, 03:43:37 AM
Tim, you're very good at making a numpty feel like he was actually useful! Thanks for not telling them I messed up one of the valve pistons through not reading the instructions. :thumbup:

I'll try and have the superglue out for the missus to bring home on Wed.

Had good fun anyway, thanks for the shop time!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 13, 2009, 04:51:04 AM
Thanks for not telling them I messed up one of the valve pistons through not reading the instructions. :thumbup:

You know, I'd completely forgot about the piston valve when doing the  writeup :doh:

We did make a start on the valve, but just to correct Stefan, it was me who did not read the instructions. We did start by turning down some 6mm stainless to the required 4mm, then at that point we turned the page and read the instructions about drilling the holes / tapping one end before turning down the rod. So we parted off the 4mm section and rough cut the 2 lengths of stainless, chucked one up, faced it at one end and then we drilled the 3mm hole to a depth of 24mm.

That was when the call of the stomach kicked in and we called it a day there.

So if there is a lesson to be learned, always read the instructions/plans through for each part just before you start cutting metal, and read all the way through to the instructions for the next part, just to make sure that you I have not missed out any helpful hints and tips.

Had good fun anyway, thanks for the shop time!

You are more than welcome, you are most welcome to come and use the tools and machinery here, and you are even more welcome if you bring scrap bits and pieces :lol:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on September 13, 2009, 05:10:02 AM
Tim,

The spools themselves are really about one of the most important bits to get right.

Get good measurements as I have shown how to do, and make accurate cuts. If you need to err on the side of caution, make the cutaway shorter. What you don't want to happen is have both ports uncovered at the same time. It is better to be 0.1mm shorter than 0.1mm longer on the central cutaway. Also, don't chamfer the edges of the cutaways, keep them as sharp as possible, but without burrs.

Just trying to help a little.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 13, 2009, 09:21:44 AM
Get good measurements as I have shown how to do, and make accurate cuts. If you need to err on the side of caution, make the cutaway shorter. What you don't want to happen is have both ports uncovered at the same time. It is better to be 0.1mm shorter than 0.1mm longer on the central cutaway. Also, don't chamfer the edges of the cutaways, keep them as sharp as possible, but without burrs.

Thanks for those tips, I will attempt to follow them. I have now read and re-read the parts in the book about the spool valves, and I will read them again before I put tool to metal.

Quote
Just trying to help a little.

and I appreciate you taking the time, I can surely tell you it is of great help to me :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thanks Bogs,

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: ozzie46 on September 13, 2009, 11:31:02 AM
  Next to the upcoming  control valve, these spool valves caused me the most concern. I took my time and they seem to be ok. I have no gaskets or sealing on  the one I have test running and it runs with a little less than 10 psi with about 3 hrs running on it.

  Ron
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on September 13, 2009, 11:50:20 AM
Hey Tim,

I got a 50g bottle of thick superglue for you, was all I had left.

I also found my thread gauge from when I worked for Wurth, it has Whitworth 55deg and Metric 60deg gauges on it, I'm sure it will come in handy.

There are also 2 dead HDDs.

The missus can take them on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 13, 2009, 12:43:45 PM
I have no gaskets or sealing on  the one I have test running and it runs with a little less than 10 psi with about 3 hrs running on it.
That sounds great Ron, glad to hear it'll run on such a low psi even without gaskets or sealing.

I got a 50g bottle of thick superglue for you, was all I had left.

That's great, thanks very much, that'll come in very handy  :thumbup: :thumbup:


I got a little more done today and got the 2 piston valves made.

Started where me and Stefan left off, having just faced and drilled the 24mm deep hole. So I turned around the piece and faced off the opposite end to the required length, 46mm as I recall :scratch:. I then drilled it with a 2.1mm bit and then tapped it M2.5 ( I know the plan said to drill 2mm, but not having the same confidence with tapping stainless, I just went with a slightly bigger drill to ease the strain on the tap. According to the tapping chart I have, 2.1mm is still a strong fit )
Then with a bit more of the 6mm rod sticking out of the chuck, I turned it down to 4.05ish mm for a length of 26mm, then polished it down to 4mm with some emery. It actually has a very slight taper, I say slight as when measured with a mic it tapers from 4.013mm to 4.006mm, I figure that it wont make too much of a problem ( he says hopefully  ::) )

Then I re-chucked it, gripping it by the 4mm end and faced the free end to leave me with 19mm of the 6mm diameter left. ( my measurements according to the plans were 18.97, but the plans said it's better to be slightly long so I went for 19mm) Then after marking 3.5mm from each end of the 6mm diameter bit I roughed out the centre bit, and then slowly brought the 2 ends to 3mm. Here's a shot of the 1st end brought to size.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/648089497_X6CDH-L.jpg)


Then I did it all again to make the 2nd one.

Then it was time to drill the little cross holes and so I used the spin indexer to hold the valves as I centre drilled and then drilled thru with a 1.5mm bit.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/648089596_qdTMM-M.jpg)


That's all I got done, next will be the eccentric straps, and that will plunge me into the world of silver soldering. ( that reminds me, I must pick up a couple of firebricks to make a hearth. )

Tim


EDIT 13/03/2010 (for those reading this thread and wanting the build this engine.)

I have been trying to get the engine to run and had nothing but escaping air to show for my efforts. I have traced the problem to these piston valves. I originally used 6mm stainless rods to make the piston valves out of, having just now measured the piece of 6mm rod used to make them I find that the rod is actually 5.9mm and that 0.1mm allows a lot of air around it.

So beware when using raw material to make sure that it is the size you need. I ended up turning down some 8mm steel to make the replacements.


EDIT 6/8/2010

Something I have found when trying to get this to run is a problem with the piston valves sticking, and I eventually chased down the problem. It seems that when you drill the cross-drilled holes there is an edge raised up around the edge of the hole. The solution was to just give the piston valves a Light wipe with a fine cutting file and then a wipe of some w&d while they rotate at a slowish speed in the lathe.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 14, 2009, 12:26:30 PM
Good stuff Tim, it's looking great.

Funny you mentioned about needing several hands to put end mills into the ER collets! I found the same myself the other day!

 Sorry, bit :offtopic: here: We went to metro centre to look at new cameras on sun. Came back with one we didn't even consider. Will post some more info in a different thread as my waffling took up more space than I thought!

Keep up the good work.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on September 14, 2009, 01:54:40 PM
Nick

Quote
Funny you mentioned about needing several hands to put end mills into the ER collets! I found the same myself the other day!

That is the reason I rave over the ballraced ER closing nut. You can tighten it up by hand enough to grip the cutter (even very loose ones), then come back and use the C spanner for the final tweak.

The other way if you have a normal nut (unless you grow another hand), is to put a bit of brown stuff (wood) to rest the cutter on and in place while you tighten up.

Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 14, 2009, 02:06:36 PM
Bogs,

Didn't know they existed, must have missed comments about those. Where would one buy one of those, or is it just part of a more expensive collet chuck?

Nick

ps I have to use some brown stuff for the base of my engine soon. I don't like wasting proper materials for things like bases!

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on September 14, 2009, 03:30:31 PM
Nick,

He only gets them in limited quantities, so they are not available all the time.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ER32-collet-chuck-Ball-Bearing-Clamping-Nut-Quality-NEW_W0QQitemZ220478456389QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item33558a4245&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on September 14, 2009, 03:56:52 PM
Nick

I got one of them ball bearing clamp nuts after John sowed me one, a great buy makes tool changes easy, and they grip the tool like a Gorilla gripping a banana  :ddb:.

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 14, 2009, 04:55:39 PM
Cheers guys, there's an ER 25 one too.

I need to make a big list of things I need!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on September 15, 2009, 04:12:18 AM
Thanks for the reminder John!  :clap:

I got 1 on it`s way to me......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 15, 2009, 01:40:14 PM
Well I've spent a bit of a frustrating afternoon. I started off ok with cutting out some 4mm brass for the eccentric straps and then milled the pieces square and to size. No problem there.

Then I set up a vice stop and positioned the mill table for centre drilling all 4 parts, and then centre drilled all 8 holes ( keeping up are we ?? ) That went ok too. Then I started by drilling the 2mm thru holes, and this too went ok until the last hole when the 2mm drill bit snapped halfway thru. "Easy" I thought, just turn over and drill thru from the other side. So I turned it over, centre drilled and then very cautiously drilled thru using the same bit that broke ( having just resharpened, well re-shaped the broken end on the grinder freehand, probably not that sharp and definately not the same profile, but it was good enough to finish a hole that was half bored, or at least that's what I thought)

I gingerly drilled thru to where the old bit was stuck, and hearing the telltale sound of drill on harder material ( hitting drill not brass ) I withdrew the drill and knocked the drillbit fragment thru with a fine punch. Then to finish the hole off I attempted to drill through with the same re-sharpened bit. Wouldnt you know it, the darned thing snapped the drill again  :bang: :bang: Fortunately the hole had been drilled enough and I just had to knock out the 2nd broken bit. So I thought that must be all the problems over and done with  :poke:

Then I started on drilling the blind holes that are to be tapped, and got the 2 holes in the 1st eccentric strap drilled without any problems or drama at all.

Then I think it was at this point that I must have been getting too smug with my own ingenuity in overcoming all the preceding problems, thinking that everything's just so easy and plain sailing. I was drilling the 3rd 1.6mm x 6mm deep hole ( to be tapped M2 ) when the bit snapped  :doh: "not another bit!!!". After a bit of head scratching :scratch: and thinking of how I could recover the part it occured to me that I can just bore the holes in the other end and cut off the bit where the snapped off bit is when I shape the top of the strap.

I didnt have a spare 1.6mm bit, but checking my tapping drill chart I saw that 1.7mm is ok so I drilled the opposite end and then tapped the holes.

Now here's a kick in the teeth, Just after tapping the M2 holes I happened to turn over the part and you wouldnt believe it, the darned broken bit of the drill had fallen out  :doh:

Not taking heed of all the signs telling me to quit while I was behind, I pressed on and made a start on boring out on of the straps. I didnt have any M2 screws that were long enough I used some M2 allthread and some M2 nuts. Not having the stepped cutter that John used, I progressively drilled out to 13mm ( my biggest "small" drill ) and then used my boring bar set to enlarge to a little over the size of the smallest eccentric.

Taking it out of the vice and seperating it I then found that the eccentric groove is every so slightly smaller than 4mm :bang: Not having a way to chuck the eccentric to slightly enlarge the groove, the only other option is to reduce the thickness of the strap a tiny bit. The strap fits the eccentric, but it is a press fit and totally impossible to rotate. I've sanded it down using some W&D on my granite plate, but it's not reduced enough.

I guess I might try flycutting it down by a tiny bit. But at this point I decided to heed all the signs and retired for the day. Sorry for no pics in this post, but when all started to go wrong I forgot about taking pics.

So, not much progress to show, but I guess I've learned from the experience.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on September 15, 2009, 01:54:29 PM
Tim,

When it gets that bad, throw your hands in the air, bow your head in shame, and give up for the rest of the day, if you don't, you should know by now, it will only get worse.

Been there and got the t-shirt, many, many times.

BTW, you can make the straps any shape you like, as long as they fit and don't hit anything when in operation. I only made them that shape because it would be the easiest (?) way for a beginner (or so I thought).

John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 15, 2009, 02:33:18 PM
When it gets that bad, throw your hands in the air, bow your head in shame, and give up for the rest of the day, if you don't, you should know by now, it will only get worse.

The voice of experience there. My inexperience is what drove me on this afternoon, I now know that when things go wrong like this again, take a step back and walk away ( muttering, if that's your thing ) and leave it for the day.

Well, if nothing else, at least I've learnt that lesson, and at least it didnt go all pear shaped on a big / hard-to-make part. ( that's my attempt at looking at the bright side )

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 15, 2009, 05:44:41 PM
Tim, I often wish I'd taken a step back and slept on it. As you say, my inexperience usually drives me on too, hence finishing both of my last two nights work after midnight. Coming away has been a blessing in disguise to catch up on some sleep!

I would just keep rubbing the strap on some emery cloth, or even draw file it rather than try to flycut it I think.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 05, 2009, 10:44:20 AM
Well, I havent forgot about this project, real life just got in the way for a bit, but I hope to get back to this build when I get home and have assembled my latest toy piece of vital workshop equipment. ( A bandsaw, woo hoo  :headbang: )

Before I set off for the mainland UK I did manage to reduce down both Eccentric Straps to fit their relative eccentrics. I did end up flycutting one as I had to reduce it from 4.00mm to 3.84mm and this piece of 4mm brass sheet seems to be incredibly hard stuff. So I just took a very slim cut off with the little flycutter, and then just cleaned up with some wet-n-dry ..... and it fits  :D :D :D :D :D

So next will be drilling the oil cups, then I have to scrounge up some firebrick-type-materials to make a hearth to Silver Solder the straps to the strap-rods ( please notice the use of the technical terms there  :lol: )

I also need to shape the straps a bit to lessen the square-ness of them.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on October 05, 2009, 01:28:07 PM
Tim,

Am sure you know what you are doing but just be careful with 'fire-brick type materials' if you don't know what they are! Am only saying this because years ago I was soldering something on a brick my dad thought was a fire brick and it started exploding! Chunks or the brick started fragmenting and flying off at high speed .. luckily didn't hit me but could have had my eye out!

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 05, 2009, 02:06:42 PM
Hi Nick, I appreciate that, I intend to go into a fireplace place to ask if they have any broken bits they could throw me.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on October 05, 2009, 06:47:06 PM
Great idea.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: dsquire on October 05, 2009, 07:12:14 PM
Nick and Tim

I am wondering if the fact the bricks exploded had anything to do with the fact that they held moisture? I know that I have read on metal casting sites not to pour molten metal over concrete as this can cause explosions. Also, wet sand is a no no when metal casting.

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on October 06, 2009, 01:00:10 PM
Don,

Could be I guess, pockets of moisture flashing off inside. I don't know, I just put that brick to one side and didn't use it for that any more!

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 07, 2009, 12:49:00 PM
I found a couple of photos of the eccentric straps so I thought I'd share them.

These are the straps before I started on the whole thinning and then boring the holes for the eccentrics.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/673319846_gdm4f-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#673319846_gdm4f-A-LB)


And this is them after much sweat, tears and tantrums, well, sweat and tantrums anyway.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/673321205_yxrpj-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#673321205_yxrpj-A-LB)

You can see the extra holes that I broke the drills in as mentioned before. I will be cutting those portions away when I shape the straps.

Stay tuned for more updates, shouldnt be too long for more progress as I've got my bandsaw up and running now.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 10, 2009, 12:54:13 PM
So I got a bit more progress made, Stefan (Spynapples) came over last night and we got some work done on the eccentric straps. We started by drilling the 3mm holes for the connecting rods, and with that under our belts we carried on to drill the little oil-cup-hole-thingys. It was at this point things started to go a little pear-shaped.

1st off we discovered that my 1.5mm drill bit is as sharp as a kleenex (mansize of course), so after burning a 1mm deep hole we switched to a 1.4mm bit. This went through the brass like, well a sharp drillbit through brass. We drilled thru with that then we followed up with a 2.5mm bit to a depth of about 5mm to make a little resovoir-cup-thingy.

Now riding on a crest of a wave, congratulating ourselves on making such a fine job of the 1st strap, we ploughed on to the other one. The 3mm hole for the connecting rod was installed without a hiccup, and the 1st 6mm of the 1.4mm oil hole went swimmingly, and then  :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: The drill snapped. Cursing this unknown grade of brass sheet for being so tough we were forced to stop. ( We had been drilling using top speed (about 4800 rpm ) and also were "pecking" taking about 0.5-1mm per "peck" )

After a little thought we decided to try drilling thru from the other side, sounds simple except this meant drilling from the inside curved surface where the eccentric would sit. After carefully marking out where the hole should come out we started with a tiny centre drill at full rpm's and very gingerly started the hole. After about 1mm depth we switched to a 1.3mm bit ( crumbs, if I break any more on this the oil hole will be <1mm!! ) and again very carefully drilled thru to the broken bit ( if you are very gentle you can hear when the drill gets to the broken bit ) then withdrew. Then, using a thin awl we gently tapped the broken bit thru until it fell out.

It's funny how things can go wrong on the final operations on a piece, but we figured we had little to lose by making this attempt at a save, and it turned out ok. Here's a pic looking down on the 2 halves of the straps as we left them last night.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/676011840_Nw32N-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#676011840_Nw32N-A-LB)


Then this afternoon I got a bit more done on the shaping of the straps. I milled away a little on each strap and ended up with something that looks a little art-deco ( completely by accident mind you ).
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/676011915_utrsu-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#676011915_utrsu-A-LB)


Then I turned down some 4mm brass rod to 3mm and cut off 2 18mm lengths for the connecting rod for the straps.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/676011989_XjESL-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#676011989_XjESL-A-LB)

That's all I got done today. Next will be the forks, blocks and pins for connecting the eccentric to the piston valves.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on October 10, 2009, 01:15:00 PM
Tim,

Really I think you are taking things a little too literally.

The oil hole is just that, a place to wack a bit of oil into. It could have been a lot larger, within reason. It was just a way of reminding people that it is a hole and it is there for a reason. When lubing up the engine, you see a hole, what is it for?, you remember that a spot of oil is needed down there occasionally, job done.

It is only when you use a calibrated drip feed hole from a small reservoir that you need to worry about things like that.

But coming along just fine now, you will soon be ready for the first air trials.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 10, 2009, 01:24:32 PM
Tim,

Really I think you are taking things a little too literally.

The oil hole is just that, a place to wack a bit of oil into. It could have been a lot larger, within reason. It was just a way of reminding people that it is a hole and it is there for a reason. When lubing up the engine, you see a hole, what is it for?, you remember that a spot of oil is needed down there occasionally, job done.

It is only when you use a calibrated drip feed hole from a small reservoir that you need to worry about things like that.

But coming along just fine now, you will soon be ready for the first air trials.


Bogs

Ahhh!! I didnt know that it could've been made bigger. That'll be my inexperience with engineering-type-stuff showing thru again, oh well, everybody has to learn, I've learned from this, and hopefully others can read this and learn from this too.

I do have to say, even though an awful lot of this is very new to me, and there have been some frustrating moments that make you want to chew your own foot off, all in all I am absolutely loving this!! And being able to share it all with the rest of the forum and benefit from the collective wisdom and advice is great too.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on October 10, 2009, 01:38:12 PM
By making this engine Tim, it will shorten your learning curve by copious amounts, because you are using techniques not normally encountered by someone fairly new to machining. You are finding that the techniques have no fear in them, when you actually get shown how to do it. There is no black magic about it, just logical thinking.

After this, you will be able to tackle a lot more complex items without having any fears about the operations needed.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on October 10, 2009, 01:50:33 PM
oh well, everybody has to learn

Tim, don't fret, that's why we are all here  :thumbup:

there have been some frustrating moments that make you want to chew your own foot off, all in all I am absolutely loving this!! And being able to share it all with the rest of the forum and benefit from the collective wisdom and advice is great too.

Same answer as above  :beer:

If it wasn't fun .............. why bother  :dremel:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stefan Pynappels on October 11, 2009, 03:32:27 AM
I have to say Tim is a lot calmer in the face of (drill bit) adversity than I would be, he just gets on and thinks of a fix.  And don't be fooled by the modesty, he has a much more technical and analytical head on his shoulders than he gives himself credit for. I reckon he is a natural engineer...
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 12, 2009, 06:46:57 AM
I have to say Tim is a lot calmer in the face of (drill bit) adversity than I would be, he just gets on and thinks of a fix.

Dont believe a word of it!! Underneath all this dirt, grease, oil and swarf there is something else...... More dirt!!! :lol: But underneath that there beats a heart of a little wannabe model engineer. :dremel:


Anyway, now that my head has swelled enough for this year, having some time off the mundane drudgery work I got a little more progress made this morning, starting with the blocks.

I started out by cutting off a chunk off the same 4mm thick sheet (well, hardly a sheet, more like half a hankichief) of brass that I made the eccentric straps from. and then mounted it the mill-vice to make the cut edge flat and parallel.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/678158731_r5UNs-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#678158731_r5UNs-A-LB)

Then after a little cutting to size and milling I ended up with these
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/678158454_RbaKt-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#678158454_RbaKt-A-LB)

Then after a little drilling they were done, here they are in place ready for silver soldering. ( I plan on doing a few practice joints before attempting to SS any of the parts for the engine, just to be on the safe side.)
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/678158565_Kqc4w-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#678158565_Kqc4w-A-LB)


Just on the subject of Silver Soldering, and especially to those who have built the Paddleducks engine, how did you stop the silver solder from blocking up the oil hole on the eccentric straps? The oil hole is only about 1mm from the soldered joint for the con rod. Any hints or tips?
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/676011840_Nw32N-S.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#676011840_Nw32N-A-LB)

Anyway, getting back to the build.

After this I had a bit more time, so I made a start on the Forks ( "use the forks, Luke" (said in best Obi-Wan impression)  :lol:  )

Not having any 6mm square brass stock I sliced off a 8mm chunk of the 19mm square bar I have, flycut it on both sides to 6mm thick, then cut it down and milled it to 11mm on one side, then cut the other side ( the remaining 19mm side ) down and milled it to give me 2, 6mm x 6mm x 11mm blocks for the forks.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/678158631_oga7M-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#678158631_oga7M-A-LB)

So next time I will be drilling, tapping and milling the forks into shape, then it'll be on to the valve packing glands ( which I already have made the nuts for thanks to Kvom  :thumbup: :thumbup: for telling me that they were the same as the piston packing gland nuts, so I made extra when I made them.)

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on October 12, 2009, 06:55:59 AM
Tim just caught up on your progress, had a quick flick through all the posts .... !!!

Coming on well ..  :clap:

Regarding all the snapped drill bits .... I too have been exactly there with the same parts  :doh:

Did you use plate brass by any chance? Alli bronze .... I could not drill that stuff for the want of trying , snap, snap, snap, and so on about 10 drill bits in all.

Then I used a bit of free machining brass ................ no problemo ....
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on October 12, 2009, 07:16:20 AM
Tim,

Great write up ... may the forks be with you  :lol:

I don't buy any of this modesty stuff for a minute ... you've already proved you're a great model engineer and photographer. It seems you're one of those annoying people that can do anything from where we're looking ... a master of all trades!!!!

 :offtopic: Her indoors has enrolled on a free photography course that she saw in the local rag after buying the new camera. She's only been to 1 session so far but will have to see if it improves her skills! If she's any good, I may promote her to chief photographer whilst still covering her tea lady duties!!! - Who am I trying to kid, haven't had a cuppa brought to me in the workshop once yet!  :lol:

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on October 12, 2009, 08:24:40 AM
Tim,

With regards to the silver solder, it all depends on whether you are using the fine wire or the normal rod.

With the fine wire, you just coil a little around a drill of the same size as the hole you are soldering into, and split it along the edge to form little wire circles. A bit of flux down the hole and on the end of the rod, pop a circle onto the rod, push it down to where you want the joint and warm up from the bottom, not directly at the flux and solder. In a few seconds, perfect joint, no run except a tiny bit around the hole that forms a fillet.

If you are using the rod, all I can suggest is put the rod onto a hard surface and belt it wiv a big yammer until it looks like a sheet. Cut it into narrow strips (pallions) wiv scissors, and again try to wrap it around the rod going into the hole. If you try to feed in the rod, you are liable to get it everywhere.

There should be an article in the booklet explaining silver soldering.

John

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: andyf on October 12, 2009, 09:12:20 AM
Quote
Spuddevans wrote:  Just on the subject of Silver Soldering, and especially to those who have built the Paddleducks engine, how did you stop the silver solder from blocking up the oil hole on the eccentric straps? The oil hole is only about 1mm from the soldered joint for the con rod. Any hints or tips?

Tim, I have read somewhere that typist's correction fluid (Tippex) acts as a resist when silver soldering, but I've never tried it. Might be worth trying on bits of scrap brass to see if it works.

Andy
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 12, 2009, 09:14:13 AM
Thanks Bog's, I have both the rod and the fine wire, I was going to use the fine wire in the manner you mentioned, cutting it into little rings. Not having done this before I wasnt sure if the solder would run into the oil hole, but I guess using just one "ring" of solder shouldnt cause a problem.

I have read somewhere that some folks put a very slight chamfer on the hole, I'm not sure why, or for what reason either  :scratch:

Thanks Andy, I've read that somewhere too.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on October 12, 2009, 12:19:37 PM
The chamfer gives a bit more surface area for the solder to adhere to, esp. if the rod is a tight fit in the hole.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 12, 2009, 03:41:11 PM
The chamfer gives a bit more surface area for the solder to adhere to, esp. if the rod is a tight fit in the hole.
Ahh, That makes sense, thanks Kvom :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 14, 2009, 01:11:24 PM
I got a little more done today on the forks.

I started out by mounting one on a parallel ( that's right, just one parallel as two were thicker than the fork itself ) in the vice and then milling out the middle with a 3mm cutter. I did toy with using a 4mm cutter as that is the desired slot width, but then I remembered reading that when milling a slot, a cutter of a given diameter will often cut oversize when it is cutting on both sides at the same time. Well as you can see, these forks are only 6mm wide and I didnt want to risk making the side walls of the fork-bit too thin, so I used a 3mm cutter and then just took an extra pass across each inner side of the fork to make the slot 4mm with the walls 1mm each.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/680774560_aqQJn-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#680774560_aqQJn-A-LB)

Then it was on to drilling and tapping. The forks are drilled and tapped thru, M2.5 at the top end. So mounting them in the vice they were centre drilled and then drilled thru 2.1mm. I left them in the vice to tap them, I just wound the x-axis to one end to give clearance and then put my tapping stand next to the vice and swung the arm over to tap the holes. I did this as I dont have a vice for my tapping stand yet, and holding these little pieces by hand would not have worked out so good for tapping squarely.

Then it was time to roll out my latest version of my vice stop.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/680774876_PuHmk-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#680774876_PuHmk-A-LB)

( by the way, that hold-down is only tightened up just enough to hold the 2 parallels in place, I reckon if it was tightened up real tight the whole lot would not be very stable, but this setup allowed me to have the whole of the fork gripped by the vice while I gently drilled thru for the pin to hold it to the block on the eccentric rod )

After all those shenaninaninanigans  :scratch: ( drumroll please ).........here is a finished fork. The overall dimentions are 11mm tall by 6mm by 6mm.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/680774194_ynYkz-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#680774194_ynYkz-A-LB)


And here are both of them with the eccentric assembly's
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/photos/680774351_58qFi-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#680774351_58qFi-A-LB)


Onwards and Umm, sideways?  :scratch:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on October 14, 2009, 04:29:34 PM
looking good  :thumbup: :thumbup:

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bernd on October 14, 2009, 06:51:07 PM
Hey Tim,

It looks like you need to take a bit of time to make yourselve a vise stop.  :D

Nice job by the way.

Bernd
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 15, 2009, 03:38:01 AM
It looks like you need to take a bit of time to make yourselve a vise stop.  :D

You know what, you could be right, in fact, you are right!! I really do need one, but I want to get on with this build, and nessesesesesety being the mother of invention, I keep coming up with ways to make a temp' vice stop to suit what needs to be done at the time. Lazy I know, but I try to kid myself that I will have a better idea of what I want from a proper vice stop by making up these temporary forms. (well that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it  :lol: )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: ozzie46 on October 15, 2009, 05:12:44 AM


  You might consider drilling the holes before milling the slots. No worries about bending the sides that way.
   
   Just my 2 cents worth.   ::)

   Nice build. Keep on truckin.

  Ron
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 15, 2009, 07:01:12 AM
 You might consider drilling the holes before milling the slots. No worries about bending the sides that way.

That's a good point.  :thumbup: I did consider doing it that way, but by being as gentle as possible, I was able to drill without bending the sides. The reason I did it that way was because the cross-drilled holes are 2mm thru one edge of the fork, and 3mm thru the other fork-edge, and I didnt want to accidently drill too deep with the 3mm and spoil the part. This wouldn't be a problem at all if I had DRO's fitted, but I only have the rather vague markings that the factory deemed fit to inscribe, and as this is a small part ( well, small to me in my short experience ) I thought that milling out 1st, and then just very gently drilling would be safer for me.

I was very watchful for any bending of the sides when I drilled them, but I think because they were sitting completely in the vice, the edges were fairly well supported and, if needs be I would've put a sacrificial 4mm shim ( at what thickness does one stop calling it a shim?  :scratch: ) in to prevent bending.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bernd on October 15, 2009, 09:00:03 AM
Lazy I know, but I try to kid myself that I will have a better idea of what I want from a proper vice stop by making up these temporary forms. (well that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it  :lol: )


Tim

That excuse usally works for me too!  :lol:

Hey, you never know you may just come up with a very unique stop that.


Bernd
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on October 15, 2009, 06:19:11 PM
at what thickness does one stop calling it a shim?  :scratch: )

Good point  :med: ........... how long is a piece of string scenario  :scratch:

Nice work Tim  :thumbup:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 16, 2009, 01:47:44 AM
how long is a piece of string scenario  :scratch:

Ah!! This one I know. The piece of string is exactly twice the length of the middle to one end.  :lol:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on October 16, 2009, 02:04:15 AM
A piece of string is also one of the best weather detectors known to man.

If it feels warm to the touch, and when held by one end hanging down, it stays motionless, then it is a fine day.

If it swings side to side, it is windy.

If water is dripping from the end, it is raining, and if you can turn it up by 180 degrees and it still stays straight, it is freezing.

But getting back to topic, it is coming along well now Tim, just that final little push and you can introduce it to a bit of air.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on October 31, 2009, 01:29:02 PM
Well, a little update on this one. I have not been able to spend much time in the workshop over the last few weeks due to family health issues, but this afternoon I was able to steal a little time to have a play work seriously on the project. I still havent got some fire-brick-bits to make a hearth yet, so I decided to get on with making the packing glands for the piston valves.

I started off by taking a bar of 20mm brass rod and chucked it up in my ER32 collet chuck on the lathe. Fortunately the bore of the headstock allowed me to chuck the whole length ( about a foot, give or take a few mm depending on the size of your shoes  :lol: ) and only have a little sticking out each end.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7626/698310054_SyjoC-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#698310054_SyjoC-A-LB)


Then after turning down a section to the required 16mm, I then turned down a 6mm length to 8mm diameter, centre drilled it and then proceeded to drill a 5mm hole about 6mm deep.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7628/698310384_N6dmD-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#698310384_N6dmD-A-LB)


Then I tapped the hole M6 for the packing nut ( or should that be packing screw  :scratch: as it screws into the packing gland )

Much earlier in the build when I was making the packing glands for the cylinders, Kvom very kindly mentioned that the gland screws for the cylinders are identical to the gland screws for the valves, and suggested that when making for the cylinder glands it would be an easy thing to turn out a few extra for later on. I took this advice and made 3 extra ( 1 to break or lose and 2 to actually use).

All that meant that rather than having to make the gland screws today, they were already made. So now I took one of the 3 previously made gland screws and screwed it into the newly tapped hole, then centre drilled it and followed up with a 4mm drill and bored all the way through to full depth, thus ( hopefully ) resulting in the hole being concentric to the bore that it would fit.

I used a little depth collar on the 4mm drill so that I would not go too far into the parent material.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7629/698310577_yxACi-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#698310577_yxACi-A-LB)


Then it was just a case of parting off from the main brass rod and repeating the above.

Or so I thought. All was going well until I got to the point of drilling the 4mm hole in both the packing screw and gland. I drilled thru the screw ok, but as soon as the bit started to drill into the actual gland, the head of the gland-screw sheared off. ( I reckon that I made the undercut at the end of the threaded portion just a little too deep, and so with the 4mm hole up the centre there was just not enough holding it together, and so with the vibration of drilling along with the friction of the drillbit, it just let go )

Thankfully the threaded portion was not jammed in the gland, so I was able to gently unscrew it using a little dental-pick-type-tool. Then with some trepidation I screwed in the last of the gland-screws that I had made, and again drilled it. It went ok this time, drilled thru, parted off, and then reversed the gland in a 8mm ER32 collet to clean up the face that would sit against the bottom of the valve block, and also custom fit the little 1mm flange that locates the gland into the valve bore.

And this is the result. ( also shown is the broken gland screw )
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7630/698310718_vmxnA-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#698310718_vmxnA-A-LB)


So one more step done, next I will be drilling the glands for the mounting screws, and then drilling and tapping the valve blocks for the same mounting screws.

One thing I would say to anyone who is also building one of these, dont just make one extra gland screw, make 2-3 extra. It wont take very long to make an extra one or two, but it could save a lot of time later ( and a lot of sphincter tightening when you are working on your last "spare"  :lol: )


So that's all I got done today,


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: chuck foster on October 31, 2009, 01:43:55 PM
looking good tim  :thumbup:

sorry to hear about the health issues, hope all is well real soon.

chuck  :wave:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on October 31, 2009, 07:42:10 PM
Nice work Tim. Delicate little things that we make aren't they! Luckily there is negligible force on the gland nut when it's in service though! I can see why you've done it that way to ensure they are concentric, but I guess they should be anyway if you're using the same lathe and tail stock etc, still, nice knowing they are DEFINITELY in line.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on October 31, 2009, 10:02:17 PM
Just a little tip here for when you make any more stuffing glands like this.

Stuffing glands don't usually get screwed in all the way to the end of the thread, because you need a certain amount of adjustment to keep the gland steam tight.

So just by turning your die over in the holder and using the non tapered side will usually give you enough thread length under the head for the job. If you are single point cutting, ensure your end relief isn't any deeper than the thread core, otherwise you are weakening the part to a stage where it will fail, as you have found out.

Coming on real nice now.


John

BTW I checked this evening just how many downloads of the plans there have been since I made them available on Rapidshare.

Well over 500.

So it looks like there might be a few more being built out there.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 01, 2009, 02:18:48 AM
Thanks Nick, Chuck and John  :thumbup:

If you are single point cutting, ensure your end relief isn't any deeper than the thread core, otherwise you are weakening the part to a stage where it will fail, as you have found out.

I see, when I was making them I had in mind a 3mm hole going through them ( for the piston rod ), but I must have undercut a little too much on the failed packing gland screw.


Quote
BTW I checked this evening just how many downloads of the plans there have been since I made them available on Rapidshare.

Well over 500.

So it looks like there might be a few more being built out there.

Just show's how easy to follow and straightforward they are  :thumbup:

It sure would be nice to see some more build logs of it.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: shred on November 01, 2009, 11:40:11 AM
Thanks Nick, Chuck and John  :thumbup:


BTW I checked this evening just how many downloads of the plans there have been since I made them available on Rapidshare.

Well over 500.

So it looks like there might be a few more being built out there.

Just show's how easy to follow and straightforward they are  :thumbup:

It sure would be nice to see some more build logs of it.


Tim
My build log is over here: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4294.0

The engine gets oohs and ahhs even from non-technical types.  

I can't thank John enough for the plans and write up.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 01, 2009, 04:25:09 PM
My build log is over here: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4294.0

The engine gets oohs and ahhs even from non-technical types.  

I remember following your build, thanks for reminding me of that :thumbup:

I especially like the bent tubing into the piston block, I think I may well be copying that on my build. Where did you get the plans for the tubing bender? It looks pretty handy to have.

Quote
I can't thank John enough for the plans and write up.

My sentiments too, I have learned so much on this build, both from the plans and from the helpful comments and advice from Bogs and the rest of the crowd on here  :bow: :bow:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: shred on November 01, 2009, 10:42:24 PM
My build log is over here: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=4294.0

The engine gets oohs and ahhs even from non-technical types.  

I remember following your build, thanks for reminding me of that :thumbup:

I especially like the bent tubing into the piston block, I think I may well be copying that on my build. Where did you get the plans for the tubing bender? It looks pretty handy to have.

Quote
I can't thank John enough for the plans and write up.

My sentiments too, I have learned so much on this build, both from the plans and from the helpful comments and advice from Bogs and the rest of the crowd on here  :bow: :bow:

Tim
I'm happy I went with the bent tubing; It made my engine look a lot better and is one of those things non-ME types notice right away.  I got the bender info from Bogs too; there are also other benders posted here and there that would work as well.  The hardest part is making the rollers.  No problem with a vertical RT, but requires some slightly off-book jigging otherwise.
 
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 11, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
Well I managed to steal a bit of an afternoon in the 'shop and got a little more done. I started out by taking the jig I made earlier to drill the mounting holes in the piston glands and adapting it to drill the mounting holes for the piston valve glands. ( basically turned the jig upside down and drilled a 6mm hole a few mm deep to locate the gland into, then drilled the glands)
No pics of this as it is virtually identical to drilling the piston glands ( and I got carried away and totally forgot about taking pics until just before I came back in the house  :hammer: )

Then I used John's tip of alligning and then fixing the glands to the valve blocks with a drop of superglue, letting it set and then spotting thru to mark the holes. Then after a blast with the fire-producing-monster, a quick wipe over with a rag while still hot, and the parts were seperated and cleaned up. Then I drilled and tapped M2 the valve blocks.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7637/710228845_hggTw-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#710228845_hggTw-A-LB)

While I was waiting for the glue to set I turned the little connecting pins that attach the whole eccentric strap assembly to the actual piston valve. I turned down some 4mm stainless to 3mm, and then turned down a 4mm section of that to 2mm ( actually just under 2mm ) and then threaded it. Then I parted it off leaving about 8mm of the 3mm diameter section, and repeated the whole process again.

Then I chucked each pin with the M2 threaded end facing in, and faced each pin to length.

Then I had another little job to get done for a friend and so that is as far as I got today.

One thing I did come across was this little parts organizer that I got months ago. It is just the thing to keep all the tiny parts and screws in for a project like this, I think I'll order some more of the larger sized one ( this pic shows 1 set of small and 1 set of larger compartments, they are all interlockable or can be all seperated if you like) They are great as they have individual lids that latch closed  or open.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7639/710229146_qZYCJ-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#710229146_qZYCJ-A-LB)

I got them from dealextreme, Here (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4580) and Here (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4727)

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bernd on November 11, 2009, 02:02:54 PM
Tim,

I like that parts box idea. Reason being I never seem to finish one project before I start another. Then I have parts laying all over and can't remember which one goes were.

Bernd
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 22, 2009, 12:13:10 PM
Well I got a few moments in the workshop this afternoon, so I got a little more done on this.

I have to admit that I had been kinda putting off the silver soldering as that is something new and unknown to me, but this afternoon I decided to have a go. So getting out the citric acid I made up some pickle, then I mixed up some flux (tenacity 5 if my memory serves me right) and got out the SS and blowtorch.

Rather than try my first joint on a real part I took some scraps of brass, drilled some holes and used some 4mm brass rod. It wasnt as bad as I thought it was going to be. It took a couple of attempts but I got there in the end.

Feeling elated from this I made a start on soldering up the eccentric straps to the con-rod to the little con-block. I had read about how it is good to have a slightly slack fit when soldering, I now know from experience the value of this. I had decided to try and solder the whole assembly in one go, and so had cleaned and fluxed both holes ( one in the eccentric strap and one in the con-block ) and both ends of the little rod, and put them together. Applying the heat to this, first of all gently to evaporate the water in the flux, then with a bit more heat. It was while this second phase of heating that there was a sharp "crack" sound and the con-block decided that it would violently leap at the wall and bounced off, landing quite neatly on the floor directly underneath the rest of the assembly.

I guess that there must have been a bit of water/steam/gas that had got trapped until it heated up enough to propel the block off the rod. Taking this as a sign, I decided to solder one end at a time, and it worked out much better, if a little longer to do.

Then I attempted to do the 2nd eccentric assembly. I gave soldering both ends at once another try, but this time drilled out the holes to a slightly larger diameter. This seemed to work much better except that just when the solder started to flow, the con-block (I'm not sure that is the right term for it, but I've used it enough for it to stick :dremel:) started to move a little off the rod. :bang:

This is them after being quenched.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG7641/720544879_ttUg6-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#720544879_ttUg6-A-LB)

Those of you who are not completely blind will see that there is approx 2.3mm height difference between the 2 assemblies. I dont know if there would be enough adjustment to compensate for this, or whether it would be better to re-flux and then reflow the solder and just push the 2 pieces back together? :scratch: (any and all thoughts would be welcome)

Anyway, I have learnt that silver soldering is not all that hard, but that I do need to practice a bit more. Also learnt that you need to get the workpiece much hotter than I originally thought would be needed.

I did notice that when heating up the joint, the flux 1st of all will evaporate the water in it, going white, then it darkens to the point of looking a bit black (perhaps I am burning the flux? ) then it goes clear and you can see it cleaning the metal, then the solder flows. Does all that sound about right to you guys who are experienced with SS?


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on November 22, 2009, 01:16:13 PM
That's how I remember it Tim,

Looks like you have good joints there. I haven't done it for a long time but remember getting a nice thin tidy ring flash around then thinking, ... I better put a bit more on, and a bit more for good measure and it ends up a messy joint! I know some of the guys use thin wire and wrap a bit around the joint to keep it a neat fillet, never tried that myself but it sounds logical as that must be about the right amount of solder.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 22, 2009, 01:36:39 PM
I know some of the guys use thin wire and wrap a bit around the joint to keep it a neat fillet

That's how I did it, seems easier for a beginner like me :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: bogstandard on November 22, 2009, 05:10:07 PM
Tim,

When I do joints as you have just done, I invariable put a 'stopper' at each end, a bit of metal or firebrick resting against them. That usually stops the 'blow apart' that is caused by the water in the flux turning to steam, and the joint acting like a piston in a cylinder. The correct gap for all silver soldered joints should be about 0.002" (0.05mm) clearance. Tenacity 5 is the latest flux and is designed for stainless, and you will be very hard pushed to make it lose it's properties. I think the brass would melt before you need to worry about it. I have recently changed over to that for all my silver soldering work.

For your already soldered bit, stand upright, and gently warm up the centre rod until the solder melts, then just push the bit down until in the correct position, then let the assembly fall over, while still heating, press the two parts down onto whatever it is standing on to get the both plates level with each other. Use a bit of metal, not your fingers. :lol:

If you do it right, and don't overheat it, you will find it will be just fine without any further flux.

Another string to your bow, nicely done.

John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 23, 2009, 02:00:50 AM
I'll give it a try as soon as I can get back into the workshop, thanks Bogs :thumbup:

Use a bit of metal, not your fingers.

Ahh!! so thats where I was going wrong  :lol: HHMS, Hot, Heavy Metal Syndrome  :lol:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on December 20, 2009, 12:29:10 PM
Well, I have not forgotten this build. I have managed to fix the SS joints that went a little wonky by doing as Bogs suggested and heating the piece up and then compressing the joints together, then laying it flat and pressing the whole assembly flat.

That was about 3-4 weeks ago. Since then I have only been able to get into the workshop for fairly short periods of time, about an hour at a time.

I have temporarily halted the paddleducks build as I have pretty much got to the point of making up the pipework and flanges, and I want to go with bent pipes instead of the extended flanges that the plans call for. So that meant that I needed a pipe bender. John ( Bogs ) was kind enough to send me some plans for a pipe bender, and I have made a start on constructing it.

Yea, yea, I know  :worthless: but because of only being able to get short times in the 'shop I have been forgetting to take the camera out with me  :doh:

Anyway, I will try and take the camera out the next time to show you what I've got done so far ( which isnt that much  :lol: )

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on December 21, 2009, 04:28:39 AM
Ha, I do that quite a lot Tim, esp when things are going wrong and am under the cosh! Looking forward to seeing it.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 13, 2010, 12:50:09 PM
Well, having managed to finish my pipe bender ( well, I got it to the point that it can bend pipes, it isn't finished in the "by the plans" sense of the word, but it works good enough for me) I have got back to this build ( finally  :lol: )

Today I got started on making some pipe flanges, the plans call for making the "stand-off" type pipe flanges to withstand the pressures of machining. But because I am using bent pipes I decided to make them out of brass.

I used some 12mm brass rod and parted off 4 thinner ( about 2.5mm ) pieces and 2 slightly thicker pieces (about 3.5mm ).
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8258/763900120_RYqUX-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763900120_RYqUX-A-LB)


I then made up a split collet to hold the "flanges" while facing both sides to thickness and smooth, and drilling the 4mm holes. I was pleased to see that using the split collet in an ER32 collet worked well.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8259/763900241_mL5Lz-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763900241_mL5Lz-A-LB)


Then it was over to the mill, where I used the split collet again to hold the sized flange blanks to drill the mounting holes. I clamped the split collet in the vice with a very expensive vice stop  :lol: and put one of the flange blanks in it, and centred it by putting a 4mm drill in the mill (switched off) and then adjusted the x and y until the drill would drop in and out without friction. Then I swapped over to a 2mm drill, moved the table over by 4mm, drilled and then moved the table back by 8mm to drill the other hole, and then repeated for the next 5.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8260/763900390_G3VDN-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763900390_G3VDN-A-LB)


And here's the result along with the split collet.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8263/763900483_Hs5GU-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763900483_Hs5GU-A-LB)


Here's a mock-up with a bit of bent 4mm pipe.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8265/763903333_J2Fm8-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763903333_J2Fm8-A-LB)

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8267/763901130_wT8oG-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#763901130_wT8oG-A-LB)



Next I have to mill the sides of the flanges and then silver soldering the pipes to the flanges and also bending the pipes.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Darren on January 13, 2010, 01:03:10 PM
Very cleaver Tim, gave me a "lightbulb" moment with that split bush  ....  :clap:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 13, 2010, 02:10:39 PM
Thanks Darren, but I can't claim any credit for the split bush idea, it was straight out of Bog's plans. I do admit that out of not having a vice stop that is small enough for the job I did decide to use the split collet for holding the flanges in the mill, and it worked out ok.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Rob.Wilson on January 13, 2010, 02:17:06 PM
Hi Tim

Great thread  :thumbup: , I like your spilt collet , are you going to mill the flats on the flanges ?   you could turn  them oval with a quick jig

Cheers Rob

Edit  :doh: done some quick pic's
(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10002/normal_assem1.jpg)
(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10002/normal_assem3.jpg)
(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10002/normal_assem3_.jpg)
(http://www.nam-engineering.com/cm/albums/userpics/10002/normal_flange.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 13, 2010, 02:37:58 PM
are you going to mill the flats on the flanges ?   you could turn  them oval with a quick jig

Thanks Rob, yes the plans do call for milling flats on the flanges, the method shown in the plans is to put 2 2mm rods thru the 2mm holes and use them resting on the top of the vice to get the flats in line with the screw holes.

I like the idea of making them oval, but I dont think it would suit this engine so I will file that idea away for future reference  :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 13, 2010, 04:08:31 PM
 :doh:

I forgot to post up some pics of my pipe bender.

John (Bogs) kindly sent me some plans for this bender when I mentioned that I would like to try using bent pipes instead of using a machined stand-off, and for the last few weeks I've been working on and off ( more off than on :lol: ) on building it.

I have stuck loosely to the plans in some areas, and not at all in others due to not having hardly any raw stock that was called for in the plans. I didnt take any "in-progress" pics, sorry. :(

Here's some pics for your enjoyment,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/IMG8268/764006902_2xUs7-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/8250908_Wivwj/1/#764006902_2xUs7-A-LB)


(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/IMG8269/764007087_MTJjy-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/8250908_Wivwj/1/#764007087_MTJjy-A-LB)


(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/IMG8270/764007881_gdYYe-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/madmodder-stuff/8250908_Wivwj/1/#764007881_gdYYe-A-LB)


One handy hint I can pass on is with regard to turning the brass forming wheels. I ground up a form tool to a rough outline of a 4mm half circle, but slightly smaller. Now here's the handy hint, it only works for 4mm tubing/pipe, but to finish off the round grooves in the forming wheels to a perfect finish, get a hold of a chainsaw sharpening file, they are round and are 4mm in diameter. Stick one in a file handle and then it just takes a few strokes while the lathe is running slow to finish off the grooves. I also made 2 slightly different diameter sections on each wheel to give a slightly smaller radius of bend to choose from. ( if I was to make it again I would make the difference greater )

I also fabricated up the main handle from 2 pieces of 3mm steel and a lump of cast iron. I tried to silver solder it all together, but not having made a hearth for silver soldering it took about 10 mins, blasting it with the torch. I wasnt sure that the silver solder had taken, so I drilled and tapped M5 to re-enforce it ( so far it has held without putting in the M5 bolts ).

I also did not bother making the rest of the clamp as the plans called for. They call for taking a 2" length of 1" square steel bar and machining and turning most of it away. Not having any steel square bar, nor was I looking forward to machining all that away too. Standing looking at the plans for a while it dawned on me that there is no real requirement to make a clamp for it, a standard engineers clamp will do the job just as well, and I didnt have to spend any time making it.

I dont anticipate having to use this bending tool too often so I think just using an engineers clamp will do me just fine.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 22, 2010, 12:49:12 PM
So I got a little more progress made today. I milled the flats on the flanges using 2 2mm drillbits to position them in the vice.

That done I got started on bending some tubing. At this point I realised that the radius that I was getting with my bender was not tight enough, so I decided to reduce the diameter of the smaller section of the bending wheels by 1.5mm depth ( 3mm total reduction ), this proved to be just right so it was on to making the bent pipes and silver soldering them on to the flanges.

The silver soldering went ok, there was a 2 flanges that I had to redo, I dont think that I got the joint clean enough on those 2. I did find it amazing just how soft the copper tubing gets just after soldering, it's very easy to make the straight sections wavy by just handling it :bugeye:

Then after dropping all the flanges into the pickle for about 20 mins I fished them out and gave them all a gentle clean with a grubby cloth to get rid of the remaining flux, I finished off by trimming the tubing sticking through the flanges with a hacksaw, filed them, and finally a quick rub on some 360grit w&d on a flat surface to polish the faces of the flanges flat.

Anyhoo, here's the obligatory pic of the finished flanges with tubes,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8273/770669991_ntn2Q-M.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg/1/#770669991_ntn2Q-A-LB)


Next will be onto the steam-control valve, that's bound to test me as it seems that you have to be very accurate with making the spool. I'm pretty good at making one part to an accurate size, but getting both the valve-control-block and the spool accurately made will test me a bit more.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 28, 2010, 01:17:32 PM
Today I realised that I have been a bit skimpy on the pictures, so when I went out to the workshop I was determined to take more pics, cos  :worthless:  :lol:


A few days ago I had a few mins and so dug through my little pile of materials and found a bit of brass bar, round bar as I didnt have any square brass bar of the right size.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8275/775425328_YPNTK-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425328_YPNTK-A-LB)



Then today I stuck the cut-off piece in the mill and started to turn ( he he he ) it into a square.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8319/775425338_R2fXG-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425328_YPNTK-A-LB)



After a little while I ended up with this.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8321/775425347_eAFXt-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425338_R2fXG-A-LB)



But as you see, the end mill left a rather rough finish, so I left a little extra "meat" on the brass block and then switched over to the mini-flycutter.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8323/775425357_QkuZF-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425347_eAFXt-A-LB)



Once all edges were silky-smooth and sized to requirement I set the block on it's smoothest face and flycut the opposite face, then flipped it and repeated the process to size the block to thickness.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8324/775425372_DZk7t-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425357_QkuZF-A-LB)

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8325/775425399_8ZzAq-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425372_DZk7t-A-LB)



Once the block was sized I set out to mark up the edges for drilling all the various steam holes. Then I set up a vice-stop.

One thing I have discovered when using a vice stop ( that you guys probably already knew ) is that it seems to be better to set up the vice stop before putting the workpiece in the vice, otherwise it is very easy to not get the vice stop right up against the workpiece. Whereas when you put the stop in first you slide the workpiece up against it just like you would do it on subsequent operations, the results ( for me anyway ) turn out more consistant ( making sure to clean the vice area when re-positioning workpieces )

Anyway, back on topic, I set up the vice-stop and then put the block into the vice against the stop. Then using an edge finder I set up for drilling the centre holes and then centre drilled all 4 edges.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8326/775425417_xcduz-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425399_8ZzAq-A-LB)

And then drilled

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8327/775425427_bUb65-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425417_xcduz-A-LB)

and then drilled the outer steam holes by positioning the drill over one outer site and then switched the block around to drill the other outer steam hole on that edge.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8328/775425446_HM5HU-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425427_bUb65-A-LB)



Then finally I drilled the 1.6mm holes for tapping M2 for attaching the flanges for intake and exhaust using the same method.

Then I started to tap the M2 holes.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8329/775425457_Gfiis-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#775425446_HM5HU-A-LB)


And wouldn't you know it, on the last hole the tap broke off while backing it out  :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh:


Now I have to source some alum and then dissolve it out.


Anyway, at that point I called it a day and came back inside.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 30, 2010, 09:04:07 PM
Wow Tim... those are some pictures! Very very clear and crisp.


Nice work too!  :thumbup:

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on January 31, 2010, 04:04:07 PM
Wow Tim... those are some pictures! Very very clear and crisp.


Nice work too!  :thumbup:

Eric

Thanks Eric  :thumbup:

I sometimes wonder why I take so many photos as they really do highlight all the machining marks and scratches on every surface, but then I think to myself "how cool would it be if I became some sort of bling-meister and was able to polish up all these pieces at the end of the build to contrast with these pics" and then I come back to reality :lol:

I do hope to really clean up all the parts when I get this running, I even have this crazy notion of getting some sort of electro-plating setup to plate some of the parts.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Rob.Wilson on January 31, 2010, 05:40:04 PM
Hi Tim

Have you seen some of those home plating kits you can get ?  ,,,,,,,,,cracking photos , sorry to here about the snapped tap .

Regards Rob

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on February 01, 2010, 03:38:53 AM
Thanks Rob  :thumbup:

Have you seen some of those home plating kits you can get ? 

Yea, I've seen a few but the Caswell system seems to be very popular and probably the route I will try. Because most of the parts on my build are brass it means that I can plate nearly all the different kinds of electro-plate directly onto the parts without having to 1st of all plate with a base coat of copper ( or at least that is my poorly-educated understanding of it )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Rob.Wilson on February 01, 2010, 11:08:00 AM
Hi Tim

The Caswell system ? please tell more  :D

Regards Rob
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on February 01, 2010, 02:11:26 PM
The Caswell system ? please tell more

Caswell's UK dealer (http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/index-front.html)

Caswell's USA site (http://www.caswellplating.com/) that has loads of info and examples.


Theres' loads of info especially on the USA site.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: SAM in LA on February 01, 2010, 03:19:45 PM
Sure is expensive.

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Rob.Wilson on February 01, 2010, 05:44:47 PM
Cheers for the link Tim . :thumbup:

Looks good , i will  have to look into it .

Thanks Rob
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on February 01, 2010, 06:25:36 PM
Rob, I'm pretty sure Caswell's will be at the Harrogate show in May, are you going this year.

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on February 26, 2010, 01:08:24 PM
So I got an afternoon in the 'shop today, I started on drilling the larger hole for the actual spool valve. ( sorry no pics of this as I got a little carried away after finally getting back into the workshop )

So this is all the machining processes on the main valve block done, I blocked up the 2 little holes that transfer the steam to the ports on the engine and silver soldered them, then filed and sanded smooth.

The valve block,

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8390/797528653_j7eZM-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528653_j7eZM-A-LB)




Then it was on to setting up for soldering the four flanged pipes that I bent earlier, into the valve block. After a little shortening on a couple of pieces of pipe I bolted the whole to-be-soldered assembly to the main cylinder-block assembly

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8391/797527838_HBNBc-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528653_j7eZM-A-LB)


The eagle-eyed of you will notice that on that pic there are only 2 joints with rings of silver solder on, the reason is that I ended up re-soldering a couple of times. The 1st time two joints must not have been clean enough, and so that picture is the setup for the 1st redo.


And this is how I actually heated this 1st redo

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8392/797528035_2mwuP-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797527838_HBNBc-A-LB)



To keep some heat off the 2 good joints I put a 1/4" piece of Ali' to deflect some heat. However, I proved to be too cautious about not re-melting the 2 good joints as when I quenched this I discovered one of the freshly soldered joints had not taken.

 :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

So, once again I cleaned up and fluxed and soldered the one remaining joint, and thank goodness it worked.


Then it was on to the actual spool valve, I chucked up some 12mm brass rod in the ER32 chuck in the lathe
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8393/797528155_95FZN-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528035_2mwuP-A-LB)

and had at it until it looked a bit like this

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8395/797528287_8hk6g-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528155_95FZN-A-LB)


Parted off and lapped to the bore of the valve block with T-cut
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8398/797528519_QZQht-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528427_kQU9f-A-LB)


And here's both items ( the valve block assembly has only been pickling for 20 mins here, still a fair bit of cleaning up to do )

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8397/797528427_kQU9f-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#797528519_QZQht-A-LB)


And that's all I got done today, next will be making the front and back covers for the valve block, then it will be milling the slots in the valve spool, and then it'll be getting really close to getting it running  :D :D :D


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: madjackghengis on March 03, 2010, 11:51:29 AM
I have finally got round to making a start on my next ( Yep, I've caught it...  :proj: ) project, and while tempted to do a Rocking engine, I had to stick with with my initial plan of building Bog's Paddleducks engine.

So I had previously got some materials gathered for this build, and not having any cast iron at all, but having a brass block that was itching to be reduced to a nice cylinder-shaped block, I decided to use brass for the cylinder.

Here is the raw brass block, the other dimensions are 25mm thick and 50mm high.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470378_rCFDp-L.jpg)


I then used my very expensive marking dye system and used my vernier caliper to mark out a rough shape to then transfer to my very expensive bandsaw (my right arm  :lol: )
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470614_ZXZ4K-L.jpg)


So I next ground up a tiny toolsteel for my tiny flycutter as per the Bogstandard curved profile that I read about on a thread here somewhere. This is my second attempt at grinding the curved shaped flycutter, I have a larger flycutter that doesnt cut as well as this latest attempt, practice I guess  ::)


So with this newly ground up tool I am totally impressed with it. The finish on brass is soo silky smooth!!! Compare it to using a end-mill and there is just no contest. I also learnt that my X2's Z axis is made out of a very tough but flexible form of spagetti. I am intending on re-inforcing the upright column, but in the meantime I have to be mindful of taking lighter cuts.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470723_p488P-L.jpg)


I have an even smaller flycutter, they're so dinky.

By the way, is there an accepted method of working out what speed to set the mill at for flycutting? :scratch: ( the smaller flycutter seemed happy to run faster)

So after squaring and sizing the 4 sides I then squared off the 2 ends with a 4-flute mill.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470900_gro4r-L.jpg)


It's amazing how the little brass chippings/shavings get everywhere (especially down the neck of my teeshirt, and they are pretty hot too  :bugeye: ) My workbench was (and still is) covered with a golden snowstorm.
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604471170_PRa9h-L.jpg)


I then had to smooth the 2 ends with some 360grit wet+dry placed on a granite plate to try and get them to match the smooth flycutter-ed surfaces.

And here it is, the first part made to size (well within 0.02mm on 2 dimensions and dead on the 3rd :thumbup:)
(http://velvet-art.smugmug.com/photos/604470176_UkjBR-L.jpg)


That's all I got done today, not much to see so far, but it's good to be back on an engine project and I cant wait to get back into the workshop to crack on with it.


Tim


Edit: If you want to see larger versions of the pictures of this build click here  (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks)
Hi Tim,  with regards to speed and flycutters, it's all about surface feet per minute, or the metric equivalent.  Just look up the diameter of the cut, at the edge, the material you are cutting, and the appropriate cutting speed in your Machinery's Handbook or equivalent shop data to get the feeds and speeds appropriate, and the best finish.  Nice start on another interesting engine, brass always looks good.  Mad Jack :headbang:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 05, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Thanks for the info regarding speeds for flycutting Mad Jack :thumbup:


I got a bit more done today on the flanges for the valve body. I started up by cutting off a chunk of 22mm brass bar,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8404/802929277_mCfuD-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802929277_mCfuD-A-LB)


then I turned down a 10mm spigot 7mm long,
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8405/802927264_YXpZV-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802929277_mCfuD-A-LB)


Then reversed it in the ER32 collet chuck
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8406/802927376_yaBgU-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802927264_YXpZV-A-LB)


And turned a 1mm deep spigot sized to match the bore of the Valve body.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8408/802925591_87mYh-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802927376_yaBgU-A-LB)


Then, leaving 3mm thickness on the flange I was parting off, I parted it off. Then it was on to the top flange. I turned another 1mm deep spigot to fit the bore, drilled a 4mm hole all the way through, then bored a 6mm wide by 0.9mm ( ok, mine turned out to be 0.88mm but lets not split hairs ) recess which is for a sealing O-ring.


Here are the pair of flanges ready to have the mounting holes transferred from the main valve block, then drilled and the back flange tapped, that will be the next job.
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8410/802925701_gGs8M-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802925591_87mYh-A-LB)


the other side showing the recess
(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8411/802925812_UTN62-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#802925701_gGs8M-A-LB)


That's all for today,

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Ray on March 05, 2010, 01:04:30 PM
Tim, I notice you and others use a radial surface on your flycutter tool.  Does it have any angles (rake) or both sides and top just flat?  I tried tosharpen my cutter like that, all flat sides and top.  It just thuds over the surface leaving  big dents.  Any tips or advise will be appreciated.   Very nice build.  Ray
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 05, 2010, 01:59:15 PM
Hi Ray, I sharpen my flycutter using the method that Bog's showed in This thread (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=850.msg6442#msg6442)

It does seem that the rake is important to getting a good finish and having a reasonably durable edge for the tool. My 1st attempts at grinding a flycutter did not work too good, but by sticking at it and taking note of what others said, and especially that post of Bog's, I managed to get going ok. Now I just wipe the face of the tool on an oilstone a few times before using it and that seems to keep it sharp.

I find that I can get a lovely silky smooth finish on both brass and Ali', I've had some mixed experiences with cast iron, but I think I was trying to run the spindle speed far too fast. That's what I love about flycutting brass, it accepts a higher speed.


Hope this helps,


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Ray on March 05, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
Thank you very much Tim.  I read the thread and looked at the pics and drawings very carefully.Appreciate your assistance and Bogs for his thread.  Ray
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 10, 2010, 01:11:10 PM
I got a couple more hours in the workshop today. I started by finishing off the holes in the flanges that I had spot-drilled last time, and tapping the rear flange. Then it came onto sizing the valve itself. I started by just fitting the valve into the valve body and fitting both front and rear flanges to see how much was to be removed from the valve spool. Notice the little gap between the body and the front flange.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8412/807069537_mDais-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#807069537_mDais-A-LB)



Then it was over to the lathe to skim off a shallow cut ( about half the size of the above gap ), then re-assemble. Still not there, so back onto the lathe, another skim, assemble, getting closer. This went on for about 8 times before it got very close. The reason for doing this in tiny stages is that if you cut too much off you have to re-make the spool, and I thought that taking small cuts and trying to fit, then taking another small cut, etc etc, would be quicker than having to remake the spool valve from scratch.

Anyway, as the plans suggest, when the valve got very close I switched from cutting with a hss tool to using a piece of 360 grit W&D backed by a flat piece of metal, to just sneak closer to the right size. The right size was when the spool could just rotate with the flanges bolted tight together.

Once that was done it was time to mill the slots in the spool valve, 3mm wide and 3mm deep slots.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8413/807069637_jxk2z-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#807069537_mDais-A-LB)



Then the only part left to make is a little handle for the spool valve. I drilled a 4mm hole in some Hex and then I chucked it in the 3jaw, rounded a section and then filed the end round ( this was a lot quicker using files than setting up my ball turner ), then I set a 5-10 degree on the compound and turned a tapered section.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8416/807069186_TT7du-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#807069637_jxk2z-A-LB)


Then I cross drilled a 2.1mm hole for the tightening screw, cut a slot through to the 4mm hole and then counter bored a 12mm bore in one side of the 4mm hole to allow the handle to fit closer to the valve body. Then tapped the 2.1mm hole M2.5 and bored out the opposite side to 2.5mm.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8417/807069279_X3whC-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#807069186_TT7du-A-LB)



Everything put together.

(http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/IMG8418/807069398_JGgsM-L.jpg) (http://www.velvet-art.co.uk/Engineering/Paddleducks/9076000_Hqtqg#807069279_X3whC-A-LB)



And I think that is all of the parts made for this engine  :D :D :D

Next I will be assembling it all together and hopefully seeing if it works ( then we'll see how many parts have to be remade  ::) )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 10, 2010, 01:40:40 PM
Looks lovely that valve and handle, very authentic.

 :thumbup:

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 10, 2010, 02:34:24 PM
Tim,

Looks good!  :clap:

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 12, 2010, 02:43:14 PM
Well I have spent a slightly frustrating afternoon on this engine. I built up the engine into 2 sections, top and bottom, the bottom holding the crankshaft assembly and the top that had everything else. Then I timed the eccentrics with the crankwebs as per the plans and then assembled the top and bottom sections together.

Feeling very excited I hooked up the little air compressor and fired it up.....




FFFFFFFFFFFFFSssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss



Lots of air escaping around the spool valve straight out the exhaust pipe. The only thing I can cling some hope on is that I havent put the O-ring in yet, but I think that is just vain hope. I reckon I will have to remake the spool valve.

Undeterred I decided to press on and just hook up the air to one cylinder at a time just to see if I could get it to kick over. I then found that all those parts that I made that fitted together firmly add up to an engine that is nigh on impossible to turn over by hand, let alone by air :doh:

I had to remove one of the piston valves and ream the packing nut, and also polish the shaft of the piston valve, then put it back together. Then I tried again but no joy. Again broke various parts down to free them and adjust, re-assemble and try again.

This cycle repeated itself for about 1.5hrs until I started to get close to finding out how many times it would bounce :D so I gave up for today. At the last go it did give a good kick and tried to go, but it was binding up so it wouldnt give a full turn. I finished by removing the top from the bottom in order to make sure that the crankshaft assembly will spin freely by itself, then I'll work on getting the valves and cylinders working free as well, then re-assemble the 2 parts and see if it'll run.

Oh, and I've got to sort out the reversing valve, as I mentioned before, in almost all positions it was leaking ( more like gushing ) air straight out of the exhaust, so the remake looks like it is on the cards.


So, no video of it running yet, but give me some time and hopfully I will get something up for you to see, either an engine running or an engine flying. ( through the air towards a wall-shaped object )

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 13, 2010, 01:12:01 PM
A little update on this.

I discovered what is almost certainly the cause of the escaping air. In efforts to trace any problems I took the top section and hooked up air to one inlet at a time. I found that one piston valve leaked more than the other, but both piston valves leaked. I dismantled one of the valves and measured the "piston" part of the valve, and it was 5.82mm. The bore was reamed to 6mm.

No wonder there was a lot of air escaping.

When I made the piston valves originally I made them out of some 6mm stainless rod, or so I thought. I measured the piece of 6mm rod I used and found it to be 5.9mm.

So this afternoon I remade one piston valve from 8mm steel and turned it down to fit snugly in the bore. After re-assembling the valve assembly to the cylinder and the whole top section to the bottom section, I then hooked up the air to just the newly made valve and turned on the compressor.

Virtually no leaking air and the engine tried to turn over. There is still some binding in the conrod/crankshaft area that prevents the engine from spinning freely. I think that I'll have to shave a little off a boss on the crankshaft bearing blocks to give a little extra clearance, and I have to remake the other piston valve too.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on March 14, 2010, 03:34:30 AM
Hi Tim

Your at the stage where you really start to learn about your engine, what's needed now is a nice methodical approach to tease out the problems, as you have been, and you'll soon get a runner for sure.


Keep at it

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 14, 2010, 04:04:50 AM
Thanks Stew, aint that the truth. When I started to assemble all the bits together, I had to go back over the plans in order to find out what went where, it had been so long since I started it I had forgotten :doh:

Now that I've had it apart a couple of times, and back together too, I am getting to know it a bit better.

At first I was going to go at it with all guns blazing, kinda like "right, lets re-make everything at one time and then try again" sorta attitude. But then calmness and reason set in and I realised the truth of what you said, work at the problem methodically. So I removed the part that I thought was the issue ( the reversing/speed control valve ) and applied air direct to one piston valve/cylinder at a time, and that was where I found the one of the problems with the escaping air.

So now I can re-make the other piston valve ( which, by the way, leaked worse than the one I just remade ) and sort out the binding con-rods and then try running it again.

So, step by step it is, I am learning that with these little engines, it only takes parts to be a fraction off the size that they need to be in order for things to either bind up or be too loose a fit. All part of the learning process.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on March 14, 2010, 10:15:39 AM
This was tricky for me to get running as yoyu probably remember.  The main problems I had were (in no particular order)

1) Binding in the crankshaft parts.  I disassembled the bottom completely and lined up the bearing blocks with a length of drill rod, then tightened down gently so that the rod would still turn fairly freely.  Then I could assemble the crank components again.

2) Binding in the guides.  I basically got it running with only one guide rod per cylinder.

3) Getting the timing precisely right.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 14, 2010, 04:31:49 PM
Yea, I remember you had some issues Kvom. So far the guides are fairly smooth and free, (oops, shouldnt have said that, they'll probably be stuck tight when I get back into the workshop )

On mine the crankwebs are binding with the con-rods once each rotation. They are only slightly binding, so I think I will just shave off a few 0.01mm's from the bearing blocks to allow the webs to be widened by a tad.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 15, 2010, 08:37:19 AM
Tim,

you will get there - it's easy to forget things like clearances when your making these models. Model engineering drawings are never toleranced so parts have to be 'fitted' together with the correct allowances - this project will certainly help you do that in the future.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on March 15, 2010, 11:15:01 AM
Quote
the crankwebs are binding with the con-rods once each rotation

That sounds to me as if the journals and shafts are not precisely parallel.  If you do want more clearance between the webs it might be better/easier to narrow the conrod ends.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 15, 2010, 03:33:35 PM
That sounds to me as if the journals and shafts are not precisely parallel.  If you do want more clearance between the webs it might be better/easier to narrow the conrod ends.

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!!

When fiddling with it today I noticed just that the crankshaft/webs/shafts/ect were not totally in line.

After making a new piston valve ( for the other valve ) and re-assembling everything, re-timing it all and making sure that everything was in line, and ( tempting fate ) I also reattached the fw/rev speed control valve and hooked up the air.

This time the "Ffffffffffffffffffffffsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss" was a little less and with a little encouragement it turned over a few times, by this time the little air-brush compressors tank had been depleted and the pressure dropped below 20psi and the engine stopped. By closing off the speed valve I was able to build up enough pressure to have a few more rotations.

I think that the speed control valve needs some attention, I think that is where I am losing most of my air, I haven't put an O-ring in there yet, so that will be the 1st attempt at a fix, then if that doesnt cure it I'll have to remake the spool.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 15, 2010, 04:29:54 PM
Nice 1 Tim, nearly there  :ddb:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: CrewCab on March 16, 2010, 05:21:25 PM
Sounds like a bloomin' steep learning curve Tim, but well done for the methodical approach and sorting it ............. the old adage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies I'm sure .............. Good luck I'm sure it will be running as sweet as a nut in a day or two  :dremel:

CC
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: shred on March 18, 2010, 08:50:14 PM
Before re-making the spool, try whipping up a temporary manifold from a bit of pipe and some soft solder (connect either both top or both bottom ports).  If you install that instead of the spool assembly the engine will run in only one direction, but you cut out a lot of the plumbing for debugging purposes.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 19, 2010, 03:48:16 AM
That is a great idea Shred,
Before re-making the spool,
  :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

I spent yesterday afternoon remaking the spool, it was probably a needed action as when I examined the bore of the speed/direction valve I noticed that it was not truely round and parallel, so I mounted it up in the vice and took a skimming cut with a boring bar until the bore was properly cleaned up. Then I remade the spool, it turns out to be about 0.4mm bigger than the original one, but it fits better in the bore now.

When I re-assembled the spool into the valve but before remounting the valve onto the engine, I applied air to it to see if it would shut off properly ( the previous spool would leak like the titanic even when turned off ) and it did ( apart from a little hiss leaking from the joints, and that is because I have no gasketing at the moment ) so I think that the remake was needed ( or at least that is what I keep telling myself  :lol: )

It did turn over for a little while ( about 20 revolutions or so ) before stopping, so I think I need to spend some time on the timing of it.


( repeat with me ) We WILL get it working, we WILL get it working  :lol:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 19, 2010, 02:27:19 PM
Not far off now Tim, does it turn over freely by hand now? There really shouldn't be any binding. Once you get this valve sorted that should be it keep at it, most engines have a period of trouble shooting esp relatively complex ones like this!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 21, 2010, 04:09:14 PM
Not far off now Tim, does it turn over freely by hand now? There really shouldn't be any binding. Once you get this valve sorted that should be it keep at it, most engines have a period of trouble shooting esp relatively complex ones like this!  :thumbup:

When I had the top and bottom of the engine seperated the bottom crank assembly was completely free. When assembled there is some friction coming from the crosshead guide rods, I have one in each pair or rods fastened slightly loosely in order to get it running in.

There is also a little friction coming from the piston valve and pistons, but it does turn over with fingers.

I havent had time yet to look at the timing, that will be the 1st thing I look at and try to get sorted.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 21, 2010, 06:47:57 PM
I have faith Tim, you will get it running. I have no suggestions for trouble shooting as I haven't built one of these (yet!)

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 24, 2010, 07:32:58 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Eric :thumbup: :thumbup: I appreciate that.

I just had a little look at the timing, it was well out. That sorted there was still a lot of air escaping without doing anything so I removed the speed control valve assembly and attached the air supply to each of the 4 ports in turn.

This was to allow me to see just where the air-leakage was coming from. I found that there was some leakage from one piston valve, but it would turn the engine over a half turn or so. However, the other piston valve was leaking worse than the titanic, and wouldnt even attempt to turn the engine over.

This is rather frustrating, I had already remade the piston valve once ( well to be truthful I did remake both piston valves ) and I thought I had made, or remade, it to fit the bore.

So it looks like I have to remake the remade piston valve  :doh: or at worst it might have to be a remake of the piston valve housing  :bang: :doh: :bang:


Oh well, its all a learning process. I gave up for the moment as I started to get rather frustrated with it all, so me thinks I need to just leave it for today.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 24, 2010, 07:46:46 AM
These piston valves sound quite difficult. I haven't seen the plans for this Tim but is there any way you can ream the valve bore and use a ground stock size for the valve?

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: madjackghengis on March 24, 2010, 10:03:02 AM
practice makes perfect better.

I like that quote, may I borrow it from time to time Tim   :thumbup:

and ............. thanks for taking the time to do a complete write up, fine job so far and no doubt it will just get better  :beer:

CC
A couple of years ago, when my younger sister was suggesting I wasn't practicing my violin enough, I stated "practice makes perfect", and she retorted with "practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect", and that shut me down immediately.  As she is a consumate player of the violin as a second instrument, and her first is the cello, which she is quite a performer on, I bowed my head, and accepted the admonishment.  Mad Jack :headbang:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 24, 2010, 01:23:05 PM
These piston valves sound quite difficult. I haven't seen the plans for this Tim but is there any way you can ream the valve bore and use a ground stock size for the valve?

Nick

When I originally made the valve bores I did ream them with a 6mm machine reamer. I dont have any 6mm ground bar-stock so I have to turn it down from 8mm stock.

This gives me an idea, I might try and rig up my dremel-clone as a kind of a heath-robinson toolpost grinder to finish to size on the remake. I dont know if it will work or not, but I guess it cant make any worse of a job that I have done so far :lol:

Once I get this engine running I am going to start on working on my machines and one of the projects I have planned is to make a proper toolpost grinder. ( one of the many projects to upgrade the mill and lathe )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM
Toolpost grinders look very handy indeed. As long as you can keep it still there's no reason the dremel shouldn't work with light cuts. Was just thinking you could buy some 6mm silver steel or something and it should be a really nice it in the reamed bore. I know it's nice to try and use what you already have though.

Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: kvom on March 24, 2010, 03:50:11 PM
Do you have room to bore out to 8mm?  Then you could use the 8mm drill rod.

I lapped mine with toothpaste to get them to fit.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 26, 2010, 08:08:14 AM
Toolpost grinders look very handy indeed. As long as you can keep it still there's no reason the dremel shouldn't work with light cuts. Was just thinking you could buy some 6mm silver steel or something and it should be a really nice it in the reamed bore. I know it's nice to try and use what you already have though.

Nick

I was thinking of attaching it to a QC toolholder in some sort of fashion.

I did have some 6mm silver steel, maybe the better thing to have a cleanup and maybe it'll show itself.


Do you have room to bore out to 8mm?  Then you could use the 8mm drill rod.

I lapped mine with toothpaste to get them to fit.

That is an option, there might just be room, the only thing is I only have a 6mm machine reamer, the other reamers I have are hand reamers, you know the kind that have a fairly long tapered section at the end, and so no use for a blind hole.

I wont be able to get out into the 'shop for a couple of days, so I will be giving the matter some more thought. At the moment I am thinking I will try to find out if I have any 6mm silver steel, if I have then I will remake the piston-valve out of that. If not I may make a heath-robinson toolpost grinder and work with the 8mm stock I have, and if that doesnt work I will investigate the bore in case that somehow it is not straight/parallel/true/tapered.

That's the plan anyway, it is good to have a plan, even if it doesnt get stuck to  :coffee:


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: madjackghengis on March 26, 2010, 11:49:19 AM
Toolpost grinders look very handy indeed. As long as you can keep it still there's no reason the dremel shouldn't work with light cuts. Was just thinking you could buy some 6mm silver steel or something and it should be a really nice it in the reamed bore. I know it's nice to try and use what you already have though.

Nick
When I needed a tool post grinder to grind the valves of my tractor (53 Farmall Cub), I took a piece of inch and a half angle, about three inches long, welded a piece of half inch square hot rolled to the outside of the corner of the angle, with two welds, leaving a slot between the welds, used a large hose clamp to clamp an air die grinder in the angle, and held the square of steel in a quick change tool holder and held down the air lever while traversing my top slide at 45 degrees, grinding out the divots in the valve faces.  A dremel would fit the same way and not need the handle held down.  Mad Jack
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on March 26, 2010, 11:57:06 AM
Tim

The dremel may work at a push but you'll risk knackering its bearings, I'm led to understand that dremel bearing are not very good in that sort of application.

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bluechip on March 26, 2010, 12:18:05 PM
Tim, Mad Jack et al.

Stew is 100% right ...

Dremels DO NOT LIKE SIDE THRUST ...  :(

I knacked one like that, fortunately got it replaced under warranty, 2 weeks old   :beer:

Strangely enough, I believe I was once told the el cheapo Draper version is more robust in this respect. Cannot say by my own experience, never had a Draper. Gave the Dremel away .. found little real use for it.

Dave BC  



Dave BC

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on March 26, 2010, 12:44:44 PM
 :offtopic:

Got this one from Aldi a few weeks ago 12.50 with lots of bits, 240V nice a chunky with plenty of humph, at that price you can risk nackering it up as a tool post grinder.

(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/Modmodder/100_3473.jpg)

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on March 26, 2010, 01:53:51 PM
My "dremel" is in fact the Axminster version, and I was going to try using the flexible extension part of the kit as it is only about 3/4" thick ( or there-abouts ) and hopefully relatively easy to mount to the toolpost.

I figure that even though the bearings may not be rated for this sort of application, it will not be seeing much use, I intend to turn down using conventional methods until I get really close, and then I will grind only the 2 3mm sections after hogging out the middle section. That being the ( theretical ) case I dont see too much wear if I take it really easy. ( famous last words ), and even if it does cause any damage, the damage will be to the flexable extension and not to the tool itself.

But like I said, I'll have another search in the metal stocks to see if I can find the 6mm silver steel,  hopefully I will find it.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on March 26, 2010, 07:27:56 PM
Stew I got that one from Aldi about 6 months ago - same price!
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 03, 2010, 01:01:20 PM
Well, talk about resurrecting an old topic :bugeye: I cant believe that it has been over 4 months since I posted any updates.

Due to my better half's health situation, until recently I havent been able to spend much more than 20mins at a time in the workshop, which meant I hadnt made much progress on this build ( or on much else ). But things seem to have settled a bit to allow me a bit more time in the 'shop so I thought I'd update this build log.

To date I have remade one (already remade :bang: ) piston valve and made a new steam chest for it and succeeded in keeping a much closer fit.

I also have modified the pistons to accept o-rings.

I then started to chase down and fix as many causes of friction that I could.

I bored the bearing blocks all the way through, they originally had a 5mm thru hole for the crankshaft, and a 8mm diameter pocket each side for the ball races. I have since found that there was some friction being caused by the 5mm sections, so I got all 4 bearing block bored out to 7.8mm in the mill, then I carefully alligned them all together in the vice and used a 8mm hand reamer to open them out the final 0.2mm. Then I stuck some 8mm silver steel rod thru the 4 and gave them all a wipe over some 600grit w&d on a surface plate.

Then I loosely assembled the bearing blocks onto the baseplate, stuck the 8mm rod thru them, and then tightened them up. Then I lapped them using the same 8mm silver steel rod and some T-cut to get them spot on. Then I re-assembled the crankshaft with all the ball races and the difference was unbelievable, silky smooth and free.

After re-assembling the whole engine and re-timing it I applied some air to it and........





It ran  :D :D :D :D  ( for about 20 secs until my little airbrush compressors tank was empty )


It seems to be quite an air-hog at the moment. I got it started on 50psi and it ran until the tank got down to about 25-30psi. I havent got any gasketing installed at the moment, nor any stuffing in the glands, so that will be my next process, chasing down the air leaks.

I also have noticed that there is a lot of air that seems to going straight thru the valving to the exhaust without meeting the piston, so that too will have to be investigated.

Overall I am quite pleased that I have got it to run on my little compressor, previously it had not had enough stored air to turn it over more than a couple of revolutions.


So while it is taking me ( quite ) a while, it is satisfying that at least there is some progress to report, hopefully in the coming weeks I will be able to post up a video of it working.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 03, 2010, 01:46:43 PM
Hi Tim

Pleased that things are settling down for you, and that you've had some success with the engine, look forward to seeing the video.

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: dsquire on August 03, 2010, 07:35:01 PM
Tim

Glad to see that things are starting to fall into place again and you can get some shop time to help you relax a bit. We're all pulling for you Tim, hang in there.  :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

 
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 04, 2010, 02:08:18 AM
Thanks Stew & Don, I appreciate your comments.

It's funny, now that I'm starting to get back in the workshop properly, the list of future projects seems to be growing exponentially !!! :proj:  After I get this running I am going to leave it in its reletively rough appearance for a while until I get a couple of small projects done, then I hope to bling it up a bit.

Some of the future projects are:-

Air powered hit-and-miss engine loosely based on Chuck Fellows design,
Either a V4 or a straight 6 wobbler type engine ( or maybe both  :proj: ),
Convert my X2 mill to cnc control,
convert my rotab to cnc control,
build a skeleton clock.

And that's just what I can remember at 7am!!!


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 05, 2010, 02:34:00 AM
Well done Tim!  :clap:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 05, 2010, 02:54:08 AM
Thanks Nick :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 05, 2010, 12:36:59 PM
Well I got another little blast in the workshop this afternoon and managed to eliminate another cause for friction in one of the steam chests. I then brought my camera in and captured a video for you all to see. ( in HD and all  :bugeye: )

Before you play it I must apologise for the sound, there is still a lot of air escaping and then the compressor kicked in, so it might be worth sticking something in your ears ( or mute/turn down your sound ).



After running it for a bit it will self-start on about 35-40psi, and will run on as little as 18-25psi. It runs great one way, and not so great the other, but hopefully it will bed in after some more running.

It's not too pretty at the moment, and I still havent got any liqued gasket yet, so it still leaks a bit from all the mating metal faces. Once I get it running real smooth and on lower psi's I will bling it up.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: raynerd on August 05, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
Nice job Tim.

With all these build logs and Bogs notes, I`m seriously considering this for my next project.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 05, 2010, 02:24:33 PM
Thanks Chris :thumbup: even though I have had a few self-caused difficulties on this build, I can still whole-heartedly recommend the Paddleducks build. I have really learnt a lot doing this build.

Go for it Chris, you know you want to  :poke:  :D


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 25, 2010, 04:40:34 PM
Just a little update on this.

I finally got some liquid gasket stuff, so I disassembled everything, thoroughly cleaned each part, and then re-assembled using the gasketing stuff.

Amazingly when I re-assembled it all and re-timed the valves the engine turned over by hand just as smoothly as it did before I broke it all down. I had been expecting to have to jiggle about and make fine adjustments in order to get the sweet spot on all the parts that have some adjustment.

Anyway, the engine is much quieter in running ( much less hiss ), and so I set about running it in some more. I hooked up my (slightly) larger air compressor (12L reciever, doesnt sound larger, but my other compressor is an airbrush  compressor with a 3L tank!! ) and let it run on about 30psi. Due to the small size of tank, and the fairly thirsty nature of my build of this engine at this time, the compressor was kicking in a little too often for my liking, so I would run it for about 5 mins and then let the compressor rest for 15-20 mins while I did something else, and then ran the engine in the opposite direction.

I kept this up until I reckon I had about 30-35 mins running time on the engine ( all the while feeding it with a little oil each time I rested the compressor )

It was then running a lot free-er freeer freer ummm :scratch: , looser. Even to the point that I can turn the engine over just by gripping the crankshaft ( an oily 5mm steel rod ) with my fingers. Compare that to when I could hardly turn it over gripping the flywheel!!

Now I can run it off my little compressor which has a more accurate pressure gauge, and it will quite happily turn over on 7-8 psi in it's favored direction, and 12-13psi in the opposite direction.

After a little more running I'll take another video of it and post it up.

Then the blinging will have to wait for a little while as I have started on my CNC conversion of my mill. ( yea yea, I know. I will be starting another project log about it soon, with some pics too cos  :worthless: )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on August 25, 2010, 10:13:22 PM
Tim,

Haven't looked in awhile, but looks like you have it running now. Would like to see another video of it now that you have the liquid gasket.

Nice job!

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 26, 2010, 03:26:43 AM
Tim, you've cracked it there then - sounds great will look out for the video!  :bow: :beer:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: raynerd on August 26, 2010, 04:51:31 AM

Some of the future projects are:-

Air powered hit-and-miss engine loosely based on Chuck Fellows design,
Either a V4 or a straight 6 wobbler type engine ( or maybe both  :proj: ),
Convert my X2 mill to cnc control,
convert my rotab to cnc control,
build a skeleton clock.

Tim

Haha - that looks like my list with the bottom 3 under way!!

pm sent to you re- the clock!

Chris
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 26, 2010, 08:04:30 AM
Thanks Eric, Nick and Chris :thumbup:

I'm actually on number 2 of my list of projects, the CNC conversion. But I have been getting to grips with Alibre 3d cad and have designed a experimental V4, double acting wobbler, I've attached a pdf of it for your optical pleasure. ( if you click and hold on the picture in the pdf you can turn it around to see it from diff' angles )

It may not work out, but I have some experimentation to do before I try and build it. If I do get it working ok I will release a set of plans if anyone would like to see them.


Anyway, thanks for the comments guys.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 26, 2010, 11:44:09 AM
Looks a nice elegant design that Tim. I haven't done anything on Alibre since my rocking engine, I'll have to get back into it as it's really good to use!
Nick
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 27, 2010, 05:03:02 PM
Here's a video of it running today. Actually I have 2 videos but the 2nd is still uploading to youtube, I'll post it up when it finishes.

This one is running at 10-11psi, you can hear that my little airbrush compressor kicks in after a few secs and provides some needed background music to both clips :lol:

Here's the 1st vid ( available in full HD as well )




2nd vid to follow.

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 27, 2010, 05:43:23 PM
And here is the promised 2nd vid, this time a closer view and a slower one, running on 5psi !!!






Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: dsquire on August 27, 2010, 07:02:32 PM
Tim

That is a great little runner that you have there. Nice and slow and quiet. All you need now is the boat to put it in. You did an excellent job on this.  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer: :beer:

Don

Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Dean W on August 27, 2010, 09:47:29 PM
Really came out great, Tim.  Fine bunch of work you've put into it.
Nice runner!

Dean
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: sbwhart on August 28, 2010, 01:32:34 AM
Great job Tim I've enjoyed following you build.
 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stew
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on August 28, 2010, 02:20:05 AM
Very nicely done, and shown Tim!  :clap: :clap:

Didn't realise I had been following/ enjoying this for over a year!  :bugeye:

Well done......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on August 28, 2010, 03:06:38 AM
Running perfectly there Tim - very nice indeed!  :bow:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 28, 2010, 06:00:01 AM
That is a great little runner that you have there. Nice and slow and quiet. All you need now is the boat to put it in. You did an excellent job on this.  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Thanks Don  :thumbup:, I actually never intended to make a boat for this, I just really loved the design of it and the simplicity of Bog's plans.

Really came out great, Tim.  Fine bunch of work you've put into it.
Nice runner!

Thanks Dean  :thumbup:

Great job Tim I've enjoyed following you build.

Thanks Stew  :thumbup:

Didn't realise I had been following/ enjoying this for over a year!  :bugeye:

Thanks David  :thumbup: It's amazing where the time goes to, although on this build I did have a break of a few months due to circumstances beyond my control.

Running perfectly there Tim - very nice indeed!  :bow:

Thanks Nick  :thumbup:


Indeed thank you all for following and for commenting and giving me help and direction during the build. I have really enjoyed this build and it has challenged me on many occasions, but has also taught me a lot. I really recommend to anyone looking for a 2nd or 3rd engine build to consider Bog's paddleducks.

I do intend to bling this up a fair bit, including perhaps trying my hand at electro-plating, but that is going to have to wait for a bit as I have a couple of projects in mind to get done before that ( starting with my X2 cnc conversion )


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: ozzie46 on August 28, 2010, 09:32:00 AM


  Great job Tim. Nice runner.    :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

  Ron
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on August 28, 2010, 12:08:15 PM
Thanks Ron :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bogstandard on September 13, 2010, 05:27:03 PM
Just over a year on and off Tim, and what a wonderful engine you have ended up with.

Very nicely done indeed. :clap: :clap:


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: raynerd on September 13, 2010, 06:48:48 PM
Nice job Tim, cracking runner you have got there!!  :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 14, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
Thanks John and Chris  :thumbup:

It's great to see you here again John, and even better to see you back in the workshop again :thumbup:

Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on September 14, 2010, 04:08:07 AM
hear hear!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Brass_Machine on September 15, 2010, 12:42:11 PM
Catching up on posts... Nice job Tim! That's a nice engine you got going there!

Eric
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 15, 2010, 05:10:02 PM
Catching up on posts... Nice job Tim! That's a nice engine you got going there!

Eric

Thanks Eric, I'm really pleased with it too.



Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on September 16, 2010, 07:53:13 AM
I just wanted to add a little note to the end of this build log.

I've noticed on madmodder and HMEM some folk are working hard on improving their chinese-made machines and ironing out any imperfections in their lathe and mill, and I am now doing the same thing to my lathe and mill as well.

But dont let that fool any of you who may be wondering about getting one of these into thinking that you have to do a whole load of work on them before you can make any "fun" projects. I bought both my X2 mini-mill and my C2 mini-lathe from axminster (free postage to northern ireland :thumbup: :thumbup: ) and apart from cleaning off the red grease that was liberally spread over every concievable surface (and then some more), bolting them to a worktop and then plugging them in, I have done virtually nothing to the machines themselves. The only thing I did was to get a quick-change toolpost for the lathe and also a ER32 collet set and arbors for lathe and mill, and built a belt-drive for the mill which just made it quieter and smoother running.

My hope was to build a couple of engines and then turn to improving my machines after I was a little more experienced in machining.

These machines have improved a lot in their out-of-the-box state, and I have proved that you can make some fairly precision parts on them without having made a raft of improvements to them. Yes, I am in no doubt that there are many improvements that can be made and that these will greatly improve the ability and repeatability and accuracy of the machines, but dont be put off from getting one of them if that is what you can afford, you can make some very good parts and engines with them, and then you can use them to make parts to improve the machines themselves.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bernd on September 16, 2010, 10:30:18 AM
Tim,

20 years ago I got one of those far east lathes. If they hadn't improved to the point of today there would be a lot of people not in this hobby.

I started to improve this lathe. It's a project right now that's collecting dust. One of these days I'll be back at it since there are a lot of other projects that I want to do and it will need the improvement of this one lathe.

Benrd
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: terryd15 on November 29, 2010, 06:40:00 PM
Well Done Tim,


It's nice to see that they can be made to look good despite the awfully crude originals I may even try one.  I assume the originals were made on very simple machinery which has put me off for years.


Ket
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 30, 2010, 01:15:26 AM
Hi Ket :wave: welcome to madmodders :mmr:

This paddleducks engine is well worth building, it tought me a lot of new and valuable skills, plus it was really enjoyable too.


Tim
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bogstandard on November 30, 2010, 03:37:14 AM
Ket,

Quote
It's nice to see that they can be made to look good despite the awfully crude originals I may even try one.  I assume the originals were made on very simple machinery which has put me off for years.

Actually, page 5 of this article shows one of the originals.

When it was designed and made (on the run) great care was taken to keep all measurements to the nearest half millimetre, so no weird and wonderful calculations to carry out. Plus it was destined to be made by a novice who may not have such precision machinery as a few of us possess.
There were never any plans produced, purely because the sketches told all. Make one good piece at a time from the rough sketches to the dimensions shown, and with minimal tweaking and bedding in (no more than a normal engine being built from plans) you should end up with a fairly complicated looking engine that actually runs. The build article starts off with only basic machining skills required (ideal for a beginner) then as it progresses, and the builder gains in experience and confidence, slightly more complicated parts are made, but still within the realms of a relative novice.

There have been a few builds been shown on the web, all successful, and I am sure there are now at least a hundred that have been built, and I suspect a lot more. So the 'awfully crude originals' couldn't be all that bad.

So with your superior skills and machinery (which by your comments you seem to have), you should be able to knock up a great looking example in a couple of weeks.


Bogs
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: NickG on November 30, 2010, 05:14:39 AM
Tim,

Flat surfaces and flatting and rounding sticks are what you should be using, fingers are no good, they distort the surfaces too much.

Here is the finished blinged up engine of mine. A little different to what you are making, but still basically the same engine.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/custom1.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/custom3.jpg)

Maybe a little over the top, but it does show what a few changes can make to the overall look of the engine.

Get yours running first, then strip it down and do all the shiny bits afterwards. Then you know you are not wasting your time.


John

Hmm awfully crude?  :scratch:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Stilldrillin on November 30, 2010, 05:52:49 AM
Wish my work was that crude......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: spuddevans on November 30, 2010, 06:00:03 AM
I've just re-read Ket's post, and through my sleep-filled eyes at 6.15am this morning I missed his comment about the originals being "awfully crude". How rude is that!!

Maybe english is not your 1st language, but John's (Bog's) originals are a whole world away from even being poor, let alone awfully crude. I would be more than happy if my engine had half the finish quality that the originals hold ( and given enough time and careful detailing, hopefully my one will improve )

Wish my work was that crude......  :thumbup:

David D

My sentiments exactly.


Tim

ps.  I also wish that I had the "very simple machinery" that the originals were made on.
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bogstandard on November 30, 2010, 06:50:40 AM
Actually Tim, they were made on a late 1930's Atlas 10F lathe and one of the first and real crap mill drills dating to around 1987.

Not quite the same as I use now.


John
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Divided he ad on November 30, 2010, 08:22:43 AM
Back to the fun side....  Top job there Tim  :thumbup:  I was kind of absent through a lot of your build but have just read through some of it and watched the videos.

Looks neat and runs great  :clap:  I wish I had the patience and determination that you show  :beer:   If it takes me more than a week I start to lose the plot  ::)


Congratulations on a job well done  :nrocks:



Ralph.





Side note.... Erm John  :poke:
Quote
one of the first and real crap mill drills dating to around 1987.
 
Oi!! I got one of those real crap mill's!   :poke:   :lol:   

I'll let you off, since your such a good bloke and I've seen the results you got from said machine :thumbup:
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bluechip on November 30, 2010, 10:13:25 AM
I wonder if he's referring to  'prototypes' rather than  'originals'.

ie. some full-size engines?

Seen one or two full-size open-crank engines that were a bit er ... unfinished .. in places. Although I should think they were OK where needed.

Sez he, bored stiff watching it snow .. the next clown who mentions Global Warming is a %?>@?# dead man ...

Dave BC

 
Title: Re: Another Paddleducks build log
Post by: Bogstandard on December 01, 2010, 03:02:23 PM
Ralph,

When the mill drills first came out, they were nothing like yours, they were like I called them, crap. Made with flint tools and sharpened chopsticks.

So badly made, they wobbled and creaked at every joint.

It was either that or nothing, so I went for it and learned how to get around the problems. I made some of my best stuff using that crappy mill.


John