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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: madjackghengis on January 12, 2010, 11:31:31 AM

Title: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 12, 2010, 11:31:31 AM
Hi, I am starting a thread for a project I started about a year ago, but only became aware of this website recently, so I will be posting things completed in the past year or so, along with current efforts as I go forward.  I am new to forums, and will probably have some problems getting things posted rationally, but will do my best to get good pictures of what I'm doing, as I do it.  The engine is a scale model of a Pratt and Whitney nine cylinder radial, with a total of about eight cubic inches.  It has a bore and stroke of 1.000 X 1.125, I will be using a hall effect ignition with an external coil.  I have mostly completed the crankcase, the front cover, the front main bearing and many of the tools and fixtures that will be necessary for its building.  I've been waiting forty years to build this engine, I hope it turns out well.  Any help in the process of adding pictures would be greatly appreciated, I am at a total loss at this point.
mad jack

(http://)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on January 12, 2010, 12:08:57 PM
Hi Madjack

This link may help

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=607.0

In short the best way to post pics is to use photo bucket, just open an account (its free) post your pic on there and copy the link over to madmodder.

Looking forward to seeing the progress on your radial

Cheers

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 12, 2010, 12:40:13 PM
Hi Madjack

This link may help

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=607.0

In short the best way to post pics is to use photo bucket, just open an account (its free) post your pic on there and copy the link over to madmodder.

Looking forward to seeing the progress on your radial

Cheers

Stew

Just what Stew says.......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on January 13, 2010, 05:32:47 AM
Can't wait to see this one!
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 13, 2010, 08:29:23 AM
Thanks Stew and others for backing him up with the advise, I spent hours trying to put photos in, to no avail.  I'll do the photo bucket thing and get some pics up for view.  One day I'll learn how to use this damned computer, maybe.
mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 14, 2010, 11:02:16 AM
Well, I got some photos on photo bucket, and we'll see how well my computer skills rack up.  I just finished some parts, but let me put the main part, the crankcase. 

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0908-04-52_0009.jpg)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on January 14, 2010, 11:09:58 AM
Well, I got some photos on photo bucket, and we'll see how well my computer skills rack up.  I just finished some parts, but let me put the main part, the crankcase. 

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0908-04-52_0009.jpg)

Hi mad jack.
Nice work :thumbup:
Ps: Let the pictures flow :worthless: :nrocks: :nrocks:

Crankshafter.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 14, 2010, 11:16:06 AM
I tried to post multiple pictures, but failed, so I'm putting up another post, and see what happens.  When I was power tapping the 18 holes for the front cover, I broke the tap on number 17.  I figured tig welding as the best remedy, and tig welded a nice sized bead on the end of the tap, and managed to get it out with minimal damage after three or four tries with the tig torch.  It helped to heat the case with a propane torch while turning on the bead with vise grips.  I had the same problem with the front cover, one ought to learn from mistakes rather than just get better at making them, really.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0908-05-45_0012.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0908-06-14_0013.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0512-30-51_0001.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0611-20-23_0008.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0607-31-22_0002.jpg)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on January 14, 2010, 11:43:02 AM
Great pictures and work Madjack  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Judging by the rule alongside the crankcase its going to be a stonking big model.

Look forward to watching the build

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on January 14, 2010, 03:34:09 PM
Wow, this is huge!  :jaw: Excellent work!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 15, 2010, 03:26:16 AM
Ohhhh....... My!  :bugeye:

This posting has now come alive..... Big time!  :clap:

Well done Jack!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 15, 2010, 09:56:26 AM
Well, I got some photos on photo bucket, and we'll see how well my computer skills rack up.

Ya did good Jack. A bit of refinement to your next pics. Might make it easier. There is an "img" icon in the reply that can be used. It's in the upper left hand corner under the "I" and will give you this when clicked "[imgAGE][ /imgAGE]" (had to write the full word out. You will only see the "img" part). All you need to do is put the link inbetween the the two. Also a space from one picture to the next makes the pictures easier to look at. At least to my old tired eye's.  :) I modified your to post to reflect the space between pictures.

Now on to your engine. Looking very nice. I'm already looking forward to the video of it running.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 15, 2010, 11:37:26 AM
First, I've got to say a big thanks for all who have been helping me get my pictures on the forum, I couldn't do it without you guys.  The info from Stew is priceless, and does a good job getting a newbie going in the right direction.  The assist with space between pictures is also well appreciated.
      I'm just starting the process of tapping the 108 cylinder base stud holes, I've got two cylinders done, with only one broken tap, still have to get that one out, but will leave it until all the holes are tapped, as I might well break off another one, no point in firing up the tig welder for one tap with so many holes to go.  I'll post pictures of the tapping operation tomorrow, I was going to today, but I downloaded the pictures to someplace in my computer which is still a mystery to me.  So, I'm posting pictures of the head machining jig which will be used to machine the canted valve towers and their fins, as well as the spark plug holes and the top fins across the head between the towers.  Also a picture of an engine that is a bit bigger, but built from the ground up with my own design on much of it.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0222.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0223.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0224.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0226.jpg)


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0012.jpg)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 15, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
Also a picture of an engine that is a bit bigger, but built from the ground up with my own design on much of it.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0012.jpg)

Almost looks like a Harley engine. Nice work.

I'd say you've got your picture posting down and now consider you a graduate. Still need to work on your avatar pic. Shows up as a red X. Need help?

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 16, 2010, 12:05:56 PM
Hi Bernd,
    Well, I tried to put a picture up for my avatar, but I guess I do need help.  If it weren't for computers, I'd have a pretty good handle on life.  I can take them apart, remove components, solder in new ones, fix boards, change one component for another, but I can't hardly get the damned things to do anything I want, even when I threaten them with dissassembly and death, or a good lightning zap!!

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0094.jpg)

This engine will need a whole new thread.  It's built now, but coming apart and getting completely rebuilt because I've got some parts I didn't have when I built it, and I don't like the stroke I built it with.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 16, 2010, 06:33:32 PM
Jack,

A rebuild post would be nice on that engine. Thanks.

I have almost the same problems with computers. They are getting way to complicated to run at times. I'll have to check in on how it's done since it's been a while. I'll get back to you when I've got it figured out.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on January 17, 2010, 04:21:28 PM
Nice bike engine too!
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 18, 2010, 11:08:39 AM
Well, after a bit of computer problems losing pictures, here are pictures of my tapping set up for the crankcase, and the results.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1210-15-40_0001.jpg)
I've bolted an angle plate to my bench with a through bolt through the crankcase to hold it dead steady for tapping

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1210-16-15_0002.jpg)
Underneath the case is a 22 and 1/2 degree V-block to set the top cylinder flat level for tapping.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1210-58-20_0003.jpg)
The secret weapon for tapping small holes

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1306-52-33_0006.jpg)
Another view of the setup

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1307-06-27_0007.jpg)

Using the secret weapon
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on January 18, 2010, 12:46:07 PM
Hi ho jack.
Nice project/ work.  :beer:
One day I hope/ wish to build a radial engine. But right now I/ we need you to  explain how you use your secret weapon :scratch:
Crankshafter.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: ieezitin on January 18, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
Helllloooo jack.

First thing I think your doing a great job and I am watching this build with great interest.
You seem to me to be a man after my own heart as making do with trash laying around the shop producing it into working machinery. Your skilled and talented, my hat off to you sir. :clap:

I in the past have made some pretty weird parts and machines in the shop as my wife would contest to by her looks she gives

 me as to say “ you! Dear are off your rocker “    :wack:

which leads me to this, your secret weapon!. Let me say what I think it is by what I am seeing,  it’s a grease gun with a pipe-coupling on the end with the tap inserted as you tap it feeds grease to lubricate!. If it is, then even my buck shot peppered out of control mind would not have come up with that one.

 :bugeye:

Thank you for showing this build.    All the best.   Anthony. :clap:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 19, 2010, 10:04:30 AM
Ahhhh!! the secret weapon!  I've read many stories and many laments over the years, about the difficulty of getting the tappings out of small holes, as they tend to clog the flutes and can cause tap breakage.  I put a coupling on a small grease gun, tapped out to take the "needle" that comes with a air blow gun set, and I inject each hole full of grease before tapping.  As you tap, the tap entering, pushes the grease and cuttings up the flutes and out, at the same time lubricating the tap.
    Having just spent two and a half days tapping out some hundred and sixty or seventy #4-40 holes, I figured I needed a secret weapon, and it worked as planned, but I also learned considerable about small hole tapping.  Of the six taps I broke so far, one was broken because I bottomed it out, four were broken because they were started less than straight, and one was broken by side force used in attempting to straighten out the start with too much force.
   If you ream a good clean countersink after drilling, larger than the diameter of the tap, use a piece of steel with a guide hole drilled to start it straight, hold the tap holder between the thumb and forefinger, as close to the tap centered as possible.  Pressing down on the tap, with feel, get all the flutes touching, by feel, start the tap, with slight pressure, but focus on keeping the flutes feeling even in their bite.  Once you've got a full half turn that feels like the first thread has a full bite, continue to turn the tap while pulling up on the tap holder gently, this lets the tap absolutely follow the lead of the tap in the hole that exists, and allows it to ignore pressure in the wrong directions.  Once you have two full threads started by pulling up, you will find that you just have to move your finger and thumb out a little at a time to gine the leverage necessary, to tap straiught in.  If you do not hit a strong moment of opposition, tap straight through to the end.  Otherwise, back off when it gets tough, enough to break the chips.
Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 19, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
First, for Crankshafter, a stove, because when you live in Norway, you need one for your shop.  This one is made from a three hundred gallon propane tank and heats my forty by sixty foot shop well.

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1410-31-37_0002.jpg)

a photo of two broken taps
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1412-16-36_0009.jpg)

another view
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1412-16-47_0010.jpg)

the third broken tap
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1412-17-23_0013.jpg)


drilling down to get the last of the last broken tap
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1510-54-06_0003.jpg)

with the last of the tap removed, the whiole is welded up to be re-machined
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1511-06-50_0008.jpg)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: ieezitin on January 19, 2010, 07:17:00 PM
Jack.

I must say that’s a unique way of tapping small bore threads, I read your post with utmost intensity, I too do a lot of small bore tapping I will give your experience of this way of tapping a trial. Thank you for your detailed explanation..

All the best.    Anthony
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Darren on January 19, 2010, 07:21:40 PM
Not to distract from your excellent engine build, and welding rescue work  :clap:

I do like your heater  :)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on January 20, 2010, 09:56:26 AM
Hi madjack.
Wish I have space for such neat "little" stove. :bugeye: But now I do know where the  the Global Warming started :bugeye: :bugeye:
BTW: Jack thanks for showing how you "secret weapon" works. :clap: :clap: Def. will try it out.
Crankshafter.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 20, 2010, 11:30:45 AM
Hi Crankshafter,
   For those who see this as "global warming", know that for every tree I burn, I raise about a hundred, which sequester carbon into the wood and ultimately into the ground.  Since the global warming "experts" are as common liars and thieves as anyone else has ever been, and since the global temeratures have been dropping continuously for ten years, you can't believe a word they say, even if they are only introducing themselves.  Remember half of all of them were warning of the coming Ice age thirty years ago.  I also sell carbon credits to anyone foolish enough to buy them from me.  By the way, does anyone want to explain how to make use of all the nifty icons that are available right above this space?
mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on January 20, 2010, 11:39:25 AM
Hi Crankshafter,
   For those who see this as "global warming", know that for every tree I burn, I raise about a hundred, which sequester carbon into the wood and ultimately into the ground.  Since the global warming "experts" are as common liars and thieves as anyone else has ever been, and since the global temeratures have been dropping continuously for ten years, you can't believe a word they say, even if they are only introducing themselves.  Remember half of all of them were warning of the coming Ice age thirty years ago.  I also sell carbon credits to anyone foolish enough to buy them from me.  By the way, does anyone want to explain how to make use of all the nifty icons that are available right above this space?
mad jack
madjack
one word: Amen.

Just click on a icon and it will show up where you have placed the marker like this :beer:
crankshafter
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Darren on January 20, 2010, 11:47:36 AM
madjack

Well put, they give the word "Expert" a new meaning ...... :wave:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 20, 2010, 10:32:47 PM
Stew,

You know what the definition of an "expert" is right?

EX = has beeb

XPERT = drip under pressure

So an EXPERT was a drip under pressure. :lol:

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on January 21, 2010, 01:22:11 AM
Great work Madjack that crank case looks real good  :thumbup: :thumbup:

Stew,

You know what the definition of an "expert" is right?
EX = has beeb
XPERT = drip under pressure
So an EXPERT was a drip under pressure. :lol:

I think you got your Radials builders mixed up Bernd.  :doh:

Obviously your not a radial xpert  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 21, 2010, 09:15:25 AM
Obviously your not a radial xpert  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have fun

Stew

Ya, your right I'm sort of a square guy. Square head to by the way.  :lol:   :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 21, 2010, 10:31:41 AM
 :beer:  I have to say thanks for all the kind words regarding my engine, my thoughts on experts, and the cameraderie that I have found on this forum, it has been far more than I anticipated, and it makes this forum a great thing.  I had to take my big red dog to the vet yesterday to have a lump excised from his chest, so I didn't get much done except cutting off eleven cylinder blanks and facing off both ends of about half of them.  Gandalf, my best friend, is doing fine, a fatty lump and no sign of anything bad, but he is now aquiring scars with stitch marks, so maybe he'll be up for a tattoo soon.  Today should yield some cylinders ready for honing and lapping if all goes well.  After that I think I will be tackling the crankshaft and the master rod.  Pictures are forthcoming.
Thanks again,
mad jack  :mmr:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 22, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
 :clap:  With my dog happy minus the lump on his chest, and laying content on his bed in the shop, I've cut eleven cylinder blanks out of one and three quarters diameter 12L14, free cutting leaded cold rolled mild steel, and will start turning them into cylinders today, and seeing how long it takes to accomplish this on eleven of the buggers.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1911-49-20_0005.jpg)

Shown is the front main bearing for the crank, with a circular shoulder for the cam to ride on when it is in place, and a bearing hole near the bottom for the inner end of the jackshaft driving the cam.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-0908-04-16_0006-1.jpg)

A picture of the crankcase with cylinder studs installed, front bearing installed but not visible, and the front cover and bearing retainer in place, just to see how it looks at this stage.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1911-47-56_0001.jpg)

A picture of the drawing of the finished cylinder.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-1911-48-34_0003.jpg)


Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 22, 2010, 12:56:52 PM
Just noticed this build thread! 2 of my favorite things in on place... a radial and a v-twin. Nice work!

Now lets see a thread on the bike... looks like you are building your frame?

Eric
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 23, 2010, 09:31:07 AM
Hi Eric, and all following this,
   There will be a thread specifically on the v twin engine build, as well as on the frame and eventually bike build, if that is considered of interest by those others posting.  My whole life was changed the first time I ever heard a radial engine, and this build is about finally, after almost fifty years, working to own one to hear any time I want, and of course to power something, an engine is really no good if it doesn't make something move, is it?  Even if it is just the heart.
    The first cylinder blank went right into the scrap bucket, just a niggling little detail, that last cut which wiped out a hundred thousandths of the cylinder flange diameter, making it too small for all the studs.  The second with all its fins cut, rough 15/16ths hole drilled, ready to turn around in the chuck and get the base and spigot machined, and lapping to the full diameter of 1.000, when all eleven are ready for the lap.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2012-36-07_0002.jpg)

The first one always provides insight into how to establish a routine that will efficiently finish the other ten, and they should be done a a few days and I can start on heads.  I've got to grind two very thin cut off tools for the fins of the heads, I just can't get myself to make all the tools before working on parts of an engine, it might be right, it might be faster, but I just have to see parts come to life.  Hopefully I've got enough odds and ends in my aluminum scrap to account for eleven head blanks of sufficient size.  I'm looking forward to getting to work on them.
Mad Jack  :headbang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 23, 2010, 10:11:04 AM
Lookin' real nice on that radial Mad jack.

I'm in for the V-twin and bike build. Never know what you might be able to pick up from somebody elses build.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Darren on January 23, 2010, 10:17:33 AM
I'm with bernd ... nice going there btw  :thumbup:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Powder Keg on January 23, 2010, 12:14:09 PM
Looking great!!! I'd like to see the V twin and bike :nrocks:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 27, 2010, 10:34:59 AM
Well guys,
   As my mother always told me, the road to hell is paved with good intents, so I ran the threading tool into the top fin, ruining the second blank, and went ahead and cut off two more blanks.  I took the first one ruined, put it back in the chuck, and bored it, just to check the bore, and found I was boring two thousandths taper in two inches, not good.  Next step, tear down the head stock of the lathe and figure out why.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2211-28-42_0006.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2211-29-05_0007.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2211-29-15_0008.jpg)
The problem couldn't be all the swarf accumulated over the past twenty years between the head stock and the bed, could it?  Cleaned out everything, took the opportunity to level the lathe, as it hadn't been done since installation ten years ago, found it was way out, both laterally, and logitudinally, not to mention twisted.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2211-46-11_0010.jpg)

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2211-47-43_0012.jpg)


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/2010-01-2309-46-46_0003.jpg)
I bored out the scrapped cylinder and found slightly less than a thousandths taper and I can work wth that.  I now have one half completed cylinder, and a second one in the lathe, waiting my ministrations today.  I took the expanding mandrel of my plywood blade two hundred tooth lathe dividing setup, put a stock five inch hand wheel with crank, and cut the threads by hand power, stopping before running into the top fin of the cylinder.  The method is established, just got to do the work now.  The .032 slot forming the fins, .125 deep wants to bite in any time it can, and even with the tail stock and center as close as possible, will pull the cylinder out of true with no warning, hand fed or under power.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: CrewCab on January 27, 2010, 04:39:30 PM
Well MadJack ............ this is a thoroughly entertaining thread, I'm hooked as I'm sure are loads of others.  ......... and your photo skills have come along nicely too  :smart:

I must admit after seeing the first photo my initial thought was ............ dam, you don't wanna break a tap in the last hole ........   :bugeye: .............. now I see you can take that minor hiccup easily in your stride I can breathe a little easier  :coffee:

Looking forward to the updates, thanks for taking the time to document it all ............ and ........... great work  :thumbup:

CC
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 27, 2010, 08:40:54 PM
Jack,

I have to say I'm in awe  :bugeye: that one would tear down the lathe in the middle of a build. Simply amasing.

As CC said nice work on the pictures. You got that down pat. Now all we have to do is get your avatar to work.

Keep up the great work.  :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on January 28, 2010, 11:20:16 AM
Jack,

I have to say I'm in awe  :bugeye: that one would tear down the lathe in the middle of a build. Simply amasing.

As CC said nice work on the pictures. You got that down pat. Now all we have to do is get your avatar to work.

Keep up the great work.  :thumbup:

Bernd
I've got to say thanks to Bernd, both for the complement and the aid in getting my photos working.  As to tearing down a lathe in the middle of a project, it has been something I've been forced to do many times over the past decades, and has become common place, since all my machinery has been almost exclusively bought used, rebuilt, and often put together with less than perfect standards, but with parts at hand, or being made at the time in place.

Now I have to get my "avatar" up, just to get that damned red x off the page! :hammer:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on January 28, 2010, 11:22:40 AM
Madjack,

Check your PM. I was writing that up before you posted.  :) Talk about ESP.  :med:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on February 08, 2010, 01:15:25 PM
Well Bernd,
   I think I got my avatar up, if what I've got up isn't what you were talking about, then I'll need more information.  I should be putting up some fresh photos of the build tonight, hopefully I can make some serious progress, and get to more interesting parts.  Thanks much for the aid in getting pictures up and moving forward.  Got to get to work.
Mad Jack :whip:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on February 08, 2010, 03:01:24 PM
Mad Jack,

Your avatar looks good. Nice picture by the way. Makes me feel good I was able to explain good enough for you to make it work.

Looking forward to more pics from your project.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on February 12, 2010, 09:23:14 AM
For all those voicing support, thanks much, Bernd, couldn't get that avatar up without your help, and more pictures are on the way.  I just got hit with a bad virus, I think it was disguised as an upgrade for sun/java, as that was the only thing I up-loaded when I got hit.  I was loading pictures onto photobucket, got stopped with a popup demanding I download a new version of something java/sun, closed all my windows, pulled up something that looked just like the popup, from my desk top, ignored it, couldn't load pictures and went back.  I went to down load the demanding version, got told I had to remove the old one first, un-installed it, the new version installed right away (that's about twenty minutes if you're on a land line) got four pics up loaded to photobucket, and then the virus took over my computer.  This is the second time in a week I was hit in the same way with what looks like the same virus, as it did all the same things.  I got hit with what I think is the same one about three months ago, so I'm thinking I pissed someone off.  The computer shop says they'll call me when its fixed, but I wanted to at least give everyone a head's up.  I think it's personal, I write a lot of political essays which are rather conservative and not popular with the "progressive crowd", and I'm pretty sure this forum will have good protection against anything coming through it, but when a virus hits, a person should give warning.  On another note, we're having the coldest winter since I moved to my new house by the creek, maybe this summer the mosquitoes will be vastly fewer due to the first two week continuous freeze in nine years!!!  Had to weld up the seal collar of a dump truck wheel which lost all its bearings about a hundred miles before the wheel was noticed, nice weather for heavy welding and grinding.  Had to put the hub in my three jaw with an inside grip to grind out the weld to the point of being able to machine the spigot open again for the seal to press in, the sheet over the whole lathe did not keep all the grinding swarf out, so the whole carriage assembly had to come off and get washed out.    You're not supposed to mig weld cast iron, but since most wheel hubs are "semi-steel" which is cast iron with about thirty percent scrap added, I did it any way, leaving lots of metal to remove.  I was going to use my die grinder in the tool post, but a thousandth was a heavy cut, and wasn't going well.  I ended up using a four inch angle grinder with a worn out wheel, spinning my lathe at about six hundred, rpm, holding the grinder inside the spigot and trying to get it ground even by feel.  Wth about forty or fifty thousanths left, I ground a carbide tipped boring bar (a real short one) with a fresh, sharp no radius edge, and got the spigot five thousandths undersized for a good press fit and done.  I should be done with cylinders soon, although I was way to optimistic on how fast cutting lots of fins would go, and doing up a couple extra is both necessary and time consuming.  I'll be posting pictures of where I've got as soon as my computer comes home.  Can't trust the wife's computer, it doesn't even like me using it. :bang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on February 12, 2010, 09:54:55 AM
Madjack,

When I see popups like that I totally ignore them. If everything is working fine I leave it alone. I feel that if somebody (software included) wants me to use a product by pushing it on me a red flag goes up. You can always go back to to the site and download it later if the site is legitimate.

Hope your shop was at least warm to do that job in? Doesn't sound like a fun job.

Take your time on that radial engine. I'm sure cutting those thin fins can give you a bit of pucker power. :)

Your pics are coming out fine. I like helping out. Just glad it was an easy job to get your pcis up and showing.

Bernd

P.S. I have another name for the "progressive crowd", but this is a family fourm you know.  :thumbup:  :)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: tinkerer on February 12, 2010, 10:36:29 AM
Sorry about the virus. As for cold killing the bugs, if it was true, then Minnesota would not have mosquitos as big as birds. :lol: Looking forward to the pictures. Since this isn't a political forum, I won't express my views, which are neither conservative nor progressive.  :scratch:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on February 12, 2010, 12:49:20 PM
Sorry to hear about the virus, we had one about a month ago that infected the virus software demanding you buy this new version before anything would work. Managed to disable it in safe mode and go to a system restore point in the past which worked. Then quickly updated virus software and touch wood it hasn't reappeared.

Hope you get it sorted quick.

Nick
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 06, 2010, 10:08:52 AM
Hi all, Having taken in a job of repairing a dump truck wheel which rolled for some miles without bearings in it, and having to forge the seal lip back into place, weld up the eight or so cracks formed, and fill in the area worn away, which the seal fits in, to hold the oil in, I had to use a four inch grinder to grind out most of the weld, while spinning the hub in my lathe, which filled every crack and crevice with grinding dust, even though I covered everything with a sheet.  The final cuts were made with a carbide tipped boring bar, and the seal, the bearing, and all, fit well in the hub, and it works, but I had to tear apart my lathe to get all the grinding dust out of it, so it got essentially a complete tear down.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0683.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0684.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0686.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0687.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0688.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0690.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0692.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0695.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0698.jpg)
Back at making cylinders, finally.  mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 06, 2010, 10:18:55 AM
Now, having gotten my lathe back together, all the swarf out and tools sharpened, the last cylinders are cut, total of eleven, nine for the count, and two in case of error, or breakage.  These will all be lapped on a "wrist pin honing machine" by a friend of mine, or I will make a hone myself, depending on his answer when I go to see him about it.  They are all three to four thousandths under the nominal one inch diameter just needing the final finish, for seating the rings, and hot blueing for finish and corrosion resistance.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0700.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0701.jpg)
Now I need to grind a couple of special tools for the fins of the heads, particularly the tool for the fins on the valve towers, as it is rather thin and delicate.  Once the heads are finished, each will be fitted to a cylinder and torqued on for a permanent fit, and then the cylinder stud holes will be located.  Only about eight hundred more parts to make, and it will be done.  With the cylinders slid in their places, the engine starts to look like a radial engine.  Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Artie on March 06, 2010, 11:25:59 AM
Man this is nice, very very nice. I also love the feeling of goose bumps I get whenever I hear a radial running... I read somewhere that a pilot once said that "real airplanes have radial engines!" I kinda agree in a nostalgic sort of way...

Alss I have seen quite a few 5 cylinder radial models and, to me, 5 cylinders just isnt 'busy' enough... its gotta be 7 (or even better) 9 cylinders to 'look' right.

Well done mate and keep it going, great build up (and recovery from those all too common 'adventures' if thats what a broken tap is....)

Cheers Artie
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on March 06, 2010, 12:53:24 PM
Hi madjack.
Nice work and wrightup :thumbup: :clap:
CS
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 07, 2010, 09:35:00 AM
Thanks all for the encouragement, this is finally fulfilling a life-long dream, I too believe only a radial engine fits in an aircraft, and nine cylinders is what I've been wanting to build for more than forty years.  I anticipate the day I can put a video of a running engine on the end of the thread, smoke, smell and all.  This forum is almost as good as having you guys over to the shop for a cup of joe, and shooting the breeze for an evening of pleasure!  I'm glad "the boys" are from all around the world, and from many languages and cultures.  It shows our common mind that we all react to the same special skills and talents. :nrocks: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: dsquire on March 07, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
MadJack

I have been following along on your thread and like the way that this rotary is coming together. An aircraft with a radial engine has a definite different character about it that inline engines just don't have. There are also some very nice multi-cylinder inline engines on these forums.

I agree, it is great to have world wide participation in these forums and the skills and talents that the members bring to the table are amazing.

Keep up the good work Jack, I'll be watching as it comes together.  :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Artie on March 07, 2010, 04:59:51 PM
I think its about time some did a Lycoming flat 6 or 4.... although Im sure it wont look as mean as a radial... :)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 08, 2010, 09:18:03 AM
In reply to Artie, I've got a book called "Building Mastiff", a full and complete set of plans and description of work to build a four cylinder water cooled flat engine, meant for a set of castings, but can easily be done from billet.  It is meant to be a working engine, so it is well designed and stout.  I hope to build it one day, but not till this one's done.!!!  Doctor's appointment today, next step is to start work on the crankshaft assembly, and then the rods.  The heads are complicated, but rather straight forward, just difficult and tedious work, the crankshaft is built up of five main parts, and some smaller ones, and will need testing in situ.  More to be posted later on.  Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 11, 2010, 01:34:51 PM
Well all, having gotten the cylinders out of the way, I've gotten to the crank, which of course is the thing we all look forward to making, when building an engine.  In this one, the crankshaft is a five piece affair if you only count the big pieces, and about a twenty piece one, if you count all the pins and such.  I just count big pieces as that way I don't have to take off my boots in the count.
   The front shaft, which drives the propeller, has the first gear of cam drive train cut in the shaft its self, it is four and a quarter inches long, with a breather hole drilled from the prop end back, with a cross drilled hole near the pinion, and an oil feed hole drilled from the back end, half way through to the main bearing, where a hole will be drilled to let the oil out on the bearing.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0713.jpg)
threading the mainshaft for the prop nut
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0714.jpg)
finishing the front shaft end
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0715.jpg)
drilling the oil passage for the main bearing from the back side of front main shaft
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0716.jpg)
cutting the pinion gear on the front shaft for the cam drive train
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0721.jpg)
finished pinion, ready for a bearing sleeve to be pressed on and machined to fit.  cutting pinion runs off into bearing area, so it is cut down, making room for a sleeve when the pinion is done.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0724.jpg)
front shaft with the spur gear which it will drive
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0725.jpg)
starting the jack shaft for the cam drive train
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0728.jpg)
finishing the other end of the jack shaft for the cam drive pinion
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0729.jpg)
jack shaft with both spur gear and pinion mounted, along with main shaft
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0735.jpg)
main shaft propped in place in front main bearing, with jack shaft installed and spur gear engaged with pinion of the main shaft.  Main bearing is integral with bronze bearing which carries the cam, and also has rear jack shaft bearing reamed in it.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: zeroaxe on March 11, 2010, 03:06:31 PM
My goodness  :bugeye: You rock! This build is fantastic. Honestly, I can only dream to have the skills you have...................AND THE GUTS to tackle such a project :headbang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 11, 2010, 07:26:01 PM
Lookin' good there Madjack.  :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on March 12, 2010, 04:45:29 AM
nice work on the gears madjack - fantastic project this. I doubt if I'll ever have the skills or patience to make my own gears.

Nick
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 12, 2010, 12:49:13 PM
Hi all, and for you Nick, that is the first time I've ever cut a complete gear using proper equipment, and it actually engages with correct backlash, too.  More parts made, working on the gear train and cam drive to get it out of the way of moving forward with the multi-piece crank, which I expect to have fun with, especially drilling the oil passages.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0737.jpg)
making a stub arbor for turning the o.d. of the cam gear, and clearance for the cam bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0739.jpg)
the cam gear, note the internal teeth, these will engage with the pinion on the jack shaft
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0740.jpg)
the cam gear in place on the stub arbor waiting to be clamped
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0744.jpg)
cam gear clamped on stub arbor
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0746.jpg)
cam gear machined, clearanced for the cam bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0747.jpg)
another view of gear on arbor
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0753.jpg)
drilling holes in the cam retention plate, this hole is for the outer jack shaft bushing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0754.jpg)
boring the mainshaft clearance hole in the cam retaining plate
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0756.jpg)
retaining plate completed.  Outside three holes will hold cam retaining bearing posts with the three inner holes sitting on stanchions, with screws through the stanchions, to fix the plate in proper place
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0761.jpg)
cam retaining plate, jackshaft with gears, and the cam gear, relative to each other.  We shall see what a new day brings forth, hopefully some successful work on getting the crank ready and working.  Thanks for all the comments, it is almost as good as hanging around a coffee pot and exchanging views, or a tea pot, for those so inclined. Mad Jack :beer:

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Stormin on March 12, 2010, 03:10:44 PM
Fantastic work!
I'm intrigued to know how you machined the internal teeth on the cam gear. Was it using a shaper or some tool post mounted bit in the lathe?
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 12, 2010, 03:48:27 PM
Yah Jack, how did you make those internal gears.  :scratch:

You din't buy it did you?  :wack: With all that work your doing I just can't see you purchasing a gear.  :beer:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sorveltaja on March 12, 2010, 07:10:33 PM
Internal gears always get my attention. How was yours made? By broaching perhaps?

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 13, 2010, 09:48:15 AM
Well, I can see that I will have to hang my head in shame, I did buy the gear, along with most of the others, because it was cheaper than buying the cutters for two different gear sizes.  I will say that when I got the bill for the gears, I decided I'd never buy an internal one again, it was over seventy dollars by its self.  This engine build is a prelude to building a much larger radial engine for the use on a motorcycle, which I expect to be about a hundred cubic inches, and I want to work out all the difficulties on a small scale, before investing in the bigger scale.  I will be doing all the gear cutting for that, as once I saw the gear and it's abbreviated teeth, I realized it would have been an easy cut on a shaper and would set up and do it myself.  Ah well, it's only money!
   I have I think seven more gears to install, two for the oil pressure feed pump, and two for the scavenge pump, and one for the rear main shaft to drive the oil gears.  At the end of the rear main shaft, there will be a pair of bevel gears to drive the distributor, and they will be a two to one ratio as well.  As I told Nick, the pinion I cut on the front mainstaft is the first gear I've ever cut with the proper tooling, from start to finish, and it surprised me coming out perfect the first time with proper back lash and everything.
   I hope to get a good go on the crank shaft assembly, and the rear main bearing, so I can establish end play, as that is critical in the way this goes together.  More pictures coming soon.  Mad Jack :headbang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 13, 2010, 04:45:16 PM
Well sometimes you just need to buy some of the parts. That's OK we won't hold it against you Mad jack.  :headbang:

A larger radial engine scrtach built for a motorcycle?  :bugeye: That ought to be some build.  :bow:

More power to ya! for that project.  :ddb:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 14, 2010, 10:43:14 AM
I appreciate the understanding shown, regarding buying gears, but I'll say this, if I had known the actual form the internal gear would have, is has quite abreviated addendums, to clear the pinion, I would have set up on the shaper and cut it.  I also want to say, I'm not doing the cranks according to the plans I purchased at great expense, because I don't like the set up, but looking at all the different crank set ups I've seen for the fifteen or twenty different engines I've looked at on this forum has helped me make up my mind as to how I will set it up.  Just watching the means some of you use to get around problems is motivating, and instructional, and makes me glad I was turned on to this project forum.  I've seen some truly impressive work here, and I've seen some that was done in a matter of just a few days.  I have to say I never imagined such a thing when I was a kid, and had decided to be a mechanic, it was great then just to find a like minded individual, or an older more experienced "man of metal", who had the patience to share some of the experience and skills accumulated.  I wonder, do tax auditors have similar forums where they can "build" model cases of tax fraud, or tax honesty, and enjoy doing for pleasure, what they do for a living?  I don't think there is anything in the world better than being a mechanic.  It means one is a "creator" in his own right, and that is a special feeling.  Mad Jack :nrocks: :beer:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 14, 2010, 11:50:55 AM
Right on Mad Jack.  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :ddb:  :nrocks:  :headbang:

Oh ya, can't forget the motivation loation  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:

and for you that don't drink  :coffee:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 15, 2010, 11:43:16 AM
Well, I started on the crankshaft "cheeks" yesterday, decided to use some half inch steel from a disc harrow, already hardened to at least RC 45 or so, got it cut, cleaned both sides and faces, tacked the two pieces together and bored the crank holes, drilled and reamed the alignment holes in the counter weights, and drilled and reamed the crank pin holes, and somehow ended up with nasty crank pin holes six thousandths bigger and uglier than the reamer.  I think I will try to get the still tacked "block" aligned in my vise again, and bore the crank pin holes till they are smooth and clean, and turn the press fit ends a bit larger than three eighths, and if that doesn't work, cut off a couple more pieces of this rusty, nasty hard steel, and do it again, but use my shaper to get everything square and parallel, and see if that works better.  There will be pictures of crank cheeks and maybe a crank tomorrow, if I have to stay up all night.  I think one flute of the drill I used before running the reamer in the crank pin hole is chipped, and made it drill oversized.  I gave up on the pictures last night when I miked the crank pin hole because I didn't want the rust stain from the tear, to ruin the otherwise good looking crank cheeks block.  At least I've got plenty of spare bar stock, a bit old and cranky, but the price was right.  mad jack :coffee: :smart: :bang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 16, 2010, 03:24:08 PM
Well, my good friend and mentor George, who finished his appreticeship before I was born, stopped by yesterday, and we had a nice chat, considering whether to start fresh on the crank cheeks, or do something.  I figured out I looked up the right drill to precede the reamer, but pulled the wrong one out of the index, and that was why the crankpin hole was nasty and oversized.  As usual, George was practical and decisive, and told me, were it him, he'd put the block back in the vise, square it up nice an do a minimum boring with a boring head, since there is plenty of room between the finished bored holes at 0.382, and the crank pin o.d. of 0.562, and I decided if it was good enough for George, who was I to question it.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0763.jpg)
After boring, cutting the cheeks down to size on my shaper, breathing in the glorious fumes of dark, sulferated, lard cutting oil.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0764.jpg)
Making smoke, and hot blue chips flying, you've got to love a shaper :clap:
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0762.jpg)
cutting the other side, centering the holes.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0767.jpg)
Partially finished cheeks, ready for more operations
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0766.jpg)
Another view of the cheeks, showing the steps.
Now to finish the profiling of the cheeks, install the prop shaft, make a rear shaft, and make a crank pin.  All in all, not too bad for a some parts already written off.  To err is human, but to really screw something up takes government management!  ta ta for now, Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 18, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
As I grunt my way through the crank shaft, it seems like a never ending project, in and of its self.  Not satisfied with the design of the designer, but having to wonder if my own ideas are ones already tried and found less than effective, but without experience yet to have a clue.  The crank cheeks are done, the prop shaft is pressed in place, permanently, I hope, and now I have to start making the last two shafts to finish of the Crank Shaft, and move on.  Here's some pictures of the forming of the cheeks, and the machines used.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0769.jpg)
cutting the retangular blocks to put a taper on both sides, lightening the crankpin end, and leaving the counter weight end heavy
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0768.jpg)
another picture with the cheeks in the shaper vise and the sweet aroma of black sulferated lard cutting oil smoke
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0772.jpg)
having made a stub arbor for them, turning the radius on the counter weights on the lathe
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0776.jpg)
Cheeks finished, with the radius on the crank pin end rough ground, and then finished with a hand file to a good looking contour
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0778.jpg)
the cheeks with the stub arbor used for the radius
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0780.jpg)
The front cheek with the prop shaft pressed in place with half a thousandth press fit, and loctite 609
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0782.jpg)
another shot, and showing the rear cheek, waiting for its shaft to be made and fit.  Once the shaft is finished, assembled, the rear bearing turned, then disassembled, then on to the master connecting rod.  Hopefully I can get the two shafts finished, and all oil passages drilled, and start on that rod soon.  Good day all, mad jack :beer: :coffee:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: zeroaxe on March 18, 2010, 02:45:38 PM
Wow, good job as usual. But then again, you know that already, right? :)

I have a question about the shaper. Never known such a machine exist before joining this forum. So..... How does it work? Does it work in/with a swinging action back and forth? Or does the cutter do a full 360° turn? :scratch:

Watching this space..... Cant wait to see this engine running :headbang:

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 18, 2010, 04:51:47 PM
Wow, good job as usual. But then again, you know that already, right? :)

I have a question about the shaper. Never known such a machine exist before joining this forum. So..... How does it work? Does it work in/with a swinging action back and forth? Or does the cutter do a full 360° turn?
:scratch:

Watching this space..... Cant wait to see this engine running :headbang:

Here you go........

But, it`s running backwards.........  ::)

<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="
"><param name="allowFullScreen"

David D



Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on March 18, 2010, 05:03:00 PM
Great bit of work Mad Jack

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: zeroaxe on March 18, 2010, 05:59:50 PM
Thanks for the video. I get it now. However, I have yet one more question.... Why would one not use a milling machine instead of the shaper?
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 19, 2010, 09:41:11 AM
That shaper was the fore runner of the mill. But therre are some things you can do with a shaper that you can't on a mill.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Darren on March 19, 2010, 11:22:07 AM
Thanks for the video. I get it now. However, I have yet one more question.... Why would one not use a milling machine instead of the shaper?

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2830.msg30273#msg30273
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 19, 2010, 12:19:26 PM
Thanks 'drilling, I appreciate the video, I could do it if I knew how, but your's shows it so well.  And Bernd, thanks for your statement, in fact, the welding of the raw stock together, and the coprocessing of the cheeks is intended to make it easy to align the crank in its tight place when finished, and a shaper gives a more accurate straight line cut than an equally tight and good working mill, so the sides of the cheeks are exactly parallel and perpedicular to the faces.  The shaper also does faster heavy cutting with cheaper tool bits, and the cutters are easily ground back sharp on the grinding wheel, no special tool sharpening needed as there is for milling cutters.
Having broken the last of my valve seat cutter inserts, broken the valve guide of the head at the same time, I gave up on my work for the day yesterday, and decided to do something I knew would come out all right, and would take up the last bit of my time:  the crank pin.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0786.jpg)
the crank pin is an inch and three eighths long with the bearing surface .875 long, .5625 diameter, with the stubs turned to match the pin holes in the crank cheeks or webs, turned down to .395 for a moderate press fit.  At least one end must not be permanent, if the crank is ever to be removed, so these two joints, when finished, will be cross pinned with taper pins with the rear one removeable, as it has little power taken off it, only to drive the distributor and air impeller.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0788.jpg)
the crank pin is tighter fit to the front, prop shaft cheek, as this will have power taken from it
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0791.jpg)
another view of the partially completed crank
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0792.jpg)
another view of the crank to put the pieces into perspective.  If I have time after seeing the doctor today, I may get the rear shaft made, and perhaps at least some of the final oil holes drilled.  The main ones are drilled, it is only the connecting ones, which must be done with the shaft completely together, which have not been drilled yet.  Soon to be working on a master rod, I can hardly wait for that.  The crank shaft makes me happy :beer: mad jack, all the interest keeps me motivated, and I will master taking videos soon, because I'm going to show it running as soon as I can get there!!! :clap: :nrocks: :ddb:  Thanks all!!!
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: NickG on March 19, 2010, 02:30:51 PM
When I first got into model engineering people told me that shapers were old hat, slow etc and that milling machines had pretty much taken over, infact we cut one up and scrapped it at our club a few years back. But since joining this forum I see more and more people making great use of them. The club still has a small boxford shaper that looks in excellent condition - gets little use.

Nick
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: zeroaxe on March 19, 2010, 03:01:01 PM
Thanks for the info on the Shaper/s. I will have a look at the quoted thread later tonight. Clearly, I still have a lot to learn. Unfortunately, due an upcoming move in September, I wont be able to aquire on of these type machines. That is why I am aiming for a smaller X2-type mill.


Good job on that crank. It even looks professionally made!  :clap:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 19, 2010, 06:40:20 PM
Thanks for the info on the Shaper/s. I will have a look at the quoted thread later tonight. Clearly, I still have a lot to learn. Unfortunately, due an upcoming move in September, I wont be able to aquire on of these type machines. That is why I am aiming for a smaller X2-type mill.


Good job on that crank. It even looks professionally made!  :clap:Thanks for the  compliment, I just want to say, when I first got into machine work, about forty years ago, I was told shapers were obsolete, and I'd never use one as a machinist.  I've worked only part time as a machinist at any one time, having spent twenty as a Marine, however in every machine shop I've ever worked in, part time, there's been at least one shaper, and it was being used every week, if not every day.  The last shop I worked in that wasn't my own, there were half a dozen shapers, and each was set up for a specific use, and all were used commonly.  Nothing cuts a keyway in a large propeller better and faster, nor in a shaft coupling for the other end of a boat shaft.  I use my mill and lathe every day, but would be hard pressed sometimes without the shaper.  Nothing does better dove tails, or gets all the features of a piece dead in line and parallel better, or even matches.  Of course when I went to electronics school for the Marine Corps, I was told not to worry about tube theory, as I would never see a tube in service as a technician, either.  All the equipment I worked on had tubes throughout the two decades I served, and when I retired from the Corps in 97, as head of the same shop I first checked in for my first duty station, I left behind a shop which still had dozens of aircraft systems which were primarily tube driven, with very little solid state parts in them.  I just was given a 12 inch shaper which I will rebuild, that was made before the 1880s, and still has less than five thousandths slop in the ram.  It too will get used often.  I would not want my shop to be without one, having used them all my life.  The sides of my crank cheeks are flatter and straighter than the faces which were milled, and I wish I had used the shaper for the faces, after the fact.  They are less sensitive to hard and soft spots in the work, particularly if the tool edge is kept keen.  Thanks for looking, Mad Jack :beer:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 21, 2010, 12:01:38 PM
While not a banner day, yesterday worked out well, I got the rear shaft made twice, wrong the first time, and fitting properly the second.  I failed to take pictures of the turning and all, but I did remember to take pictures after it was done.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0798.jpg)
the crank shaft, together, almost finished, just lacking the last of the oil passages and the distributor drive gear note the oil groove around the rear main bearing, this is the input for the oil for the main bearing, the master connecting rod and the front main bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0797.jpg)
another view of the bottom side of the crank shaft, note the dark spots in the middle of the edge of each crank cheek - these were machined out of hardened fifty or sixty year old tool steel from a disc cultivator farm implement.  The dark spot is what is left of one of the tack welds I used to keep the two pieces fixed together for all the machine work, the weld on the other end was completely machined away with no sign of it left
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0796.jpg)
note the hole just visible in the cheek weight, a quarter inch hole was reamed through both for aligning the crank as it is pressed together
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0793.jpg)
the crank standing on its webs, showing its size relative to the case, cover, and with a castle nut which will hold the prop on.  Next job is to finish drilling out the final oil passages, drilling the final vent, as this engine vents through the prop shaft, needing only the cross hole drilled for this now, but requiring a fixture to drill holes at a 45 degree angle from the center of the crank pin, through each cheek, and connecting the pin to the rear bearing and oil supply, with the passage from the pin to through the front cheek supplying the front main bearing, and with the oil coming out from around the bearing to pool in the front cavity, and oil the cam and the prop shaft bearing, a ball bearing which will fit in the front cover.  The case has a drain at the bottom for the oil to return to the sump connected to the main case cavity for the return pump to pick up, and return to the tank via a filter.  Next is machining the rear main bearing, as this is where the oil pumps attach, and drive off a gear which will be pinned to the rear shaft against the rear main bearing.  It's hard to choose whether to machine the master rod and slave rods next, after the rear main bearing, or to stay there, and machine the two oil pumps and associated work.  The oil pumps are directly adjacent to the bearing, however the master rod and slave rods appear more interesting, the choice is difficult, but both must be done, so it will be as it will be.  First, a fixture to allow drilling the oil passages through the cheeks of the crank, can't forget that.  Till next time, Mad Jack :clap: :beer:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: zeroaxe on March 21, 2010, 12:38:05 PM
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0796.jpg)

I know what you mean about those dark spots. I am in the process of making a ball turner(actually, I need the turner to turn (concave or convex???  :scratch:) 'pulley' or rather a 'wheel' for a tube bender(NOT a pipe bender!). Anyway, I also have 4 spots like that on the bottom of the disc where I welded a 'stub' to hold in the chuck(this disc was cut at work on a plasma cutter that is not realy accurate!). After one side was faced, I cut the stub off and face that side. No matter how much machining, I cant get rid of those 4 spots!!!* Also, I tried (when the stub was still on) to cut the edge square. The steel is tempered too much(way too hard) there and these carbide tools arent happy with that. Actually, I fuzzed my tools  :(  Live and learn!

I also noticed something else in this pic...... It is not only that black wheel on the table that I am curious about, but also the rest that is attached to it!!! What is it!?




*Side note... I cant remembered if it was here or on the CXhester forum, that I got some advice about this tempered disc. I heated it up with the Oxy/Acethylene torch to HOT(not red hot, but hot ), fired up the BBQ and make some fire. Only this time, it was to roast some metal! I left it at it's own devices in it's ash-bed. Took it the next day and what do you know? Machined tose spots right off! The only thing that remains, is the 4 little 'guide holes' that I had the plasma cutter "punch" in the disc. In after thought, it is not even neccesary because I can mark it out and just have the drill at it!  :bang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 21, 2010, 06:50:36 PM
Thats a nice looking crankshaft!  :thumbup:

Eric
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 22, 2010, 10:00:42 AM
Sometimes a person does something that seems reasonable, but makes you want to cry afterwards.  Having been aligning multi-piece crank assemblies for some thirty odd years, I had to check the crank I just assembled, and come to find out the shafts are not aligned, but have as much as seven and eight thousandths eccentricity.  Now is the time I regret using the mill for the crank cheeks, and will go back, make a new set, assuming I don't ruin the shafts, dissassembling the whole thing, and hopefully this time get all faces in the same plane, so there is a reasonable accuracy in the shaft rotation.  For those who have used the method of running shafts through holes in both crank sides, and then cut out the middle section, this is where you win.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0800.jpg)
with the main bearings on V blocks, and the dial indicator on the ends of the shafts, they are obviously not straight.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0799.jpg)
Since the shafts were straight when machined, and each "second end" clocked in before turning, it is the crank cheeks causing the eccentricity and must be replaced.  And I thought foolishly, I was ready to move forward, Ha :bang: teach me to measure something I don't want the answer to :bang:  I have to think about this, I will not use the same method to make the crank cheeks, this is definitely about the two faces, inner and outer, being other than parallel.  With Harley engines, I just start hitting the flywheels with a lead hammer, and continue until the shafts are within a thousandth of an inch.  These have already, not succumed to that treatment.  I think I will use the shaper exclusively for the faces, and the mill only for boring the necessary accurate holes.  When using a multi-element face cutter on hardened steel, it tends to deflect as the individual inserts enter and leave the metal, often leaving a wavy pattern on the surface which is always visible, but not always easily measurable for accuracy.  Perhaps if I machine the cheeks parallel and a quarter inch thick, ensuring to my best ability the parallel factor, and then add metal to the counter weight end with rivets, after the crank is proven out straight and round turning.  Time for some thought and some research, it will not do as it is.  Mad Jack :bang: :bang: :bang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 22, 2010, 10:13:10 AM
And to Zeroaxe, that wheel is attached to one of those artsy fartsy motorcycles made out of coat hanger wire, string, beads, and any other old thing, and is art far beyond any artistry I can accomplish, because it has no measuring, no fixed dimensions, and looks good without having to work.  My mom keeps saying I should make such things as they sell well, but I can't see them in the pile of metal I have, all I see is things that require machining and fitting, and can't be just hung together, although other people just don't understand why I can't, after all, I can weld like the artist, and I can bend the wires like he can, and I know what all kinds of cool things look like, I just can't twist them out of coat hangers and odd bits and pieces, but have to make the individual parts, and they have to turn and fit, and the like.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0801.jpg)
They look good, and sit nice on shelves, but they don't run and make noise, almost like having models!!Mad Jack :headbang:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 22, 2010, 02:41:33 PM
MAd Jack,

Just a thought here on seperating the shafts from the cheeks. How about grinding or cutting with a slitting saw, a slot on the cheeks by the shafts in line with them. In other words relieve the tension on the hole that holds the shafts in. Kind of like splitting an old bearing to get it out of the hole. I think thar would make it easier to take apart.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 23, 2010, 01:55:50 PM
Thanks for the suggestion on the disassembly of the crank, as it turned out, it disassembled rather easily, the crank pin punching out with a brass drift, as it was not meant to be permanent, and with the front and rear shafts pressing out with an arbor press with only a little more effort.  Measuring the inner cheek faces showed the three insert face mill left the cheek faces quite other than flat, with as much as two and a half thousandths difference just on opposite sides of the crank pin holes on both cheeks which is exactly what I expected given the way the shafts were out of alignment.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0805.jpg)
crank disassembled, ready for measuring and checking the shafts
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0802.jpg)
Starting the new blank for the crank cheeks
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0803.jpg)
the delicious aroma of suferated lard cutting oil, as the shaper cuts the steel
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0804.jpg)
a look at the cut from the back side
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0806.jpg)
the blank cut to size, a thousandth taper from one edge to the other, which will be filed to a micrometer measured flat when the cheek is cut to shape, after the holes are properly bored.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0813.jpg)
The old cheeks sitting on top of the blank, showing plenty of room.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 23, 2010, 03:46:28 PM
Nice save Mad Jack.  :thumbup:

Looks like a surface grinder would come in mighty handy to get them parallel.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 24, 2010, 09:24:30 AM
You know Bernd, I was thinking a lot about surface grinders, and the many ways one can approximate one while shaping this flat.  I've read of a method of driving a wheel on a pillar on one of those granite checking blocks, (since I won't drill holes in my surface plate for anything), with the belt kind of loose, and the nine by nine or thereabouts granite block well mounted not to move, and sliding the work under the wheel, after dressing it of course with a makeshift setup using a diamond dressing stone, and a clamped parallel, with the object to grind in the neighborhood of a quarter of a thousandth at a time, and always feeding the work into out-going end of the grinding wheel.  I've got one of those blocks, and about a dozen or two odd motors, I think I might try to jig up a spindle to fit on a pillar that will bolt in the hole already in the block, and see what I can do.  It'd be nice to know the sides are both flat, and are parallel.  The uncut side of the stock is flat and straight right now, even after the cutting by the shaper, so it would just be grinding the side I cut, and only a couple of thousandths, total at worst.  That's a good idea, and I appreciate the suggestion. Let me see what turns up and see if I can get a straight crank and some interesting pictures.  A man can put off a good idea for decades because he finds his own way around a problem, only to finally end up with a situation which requires doing what has been put off for so long.  I could write a book if I could remember all the good ideas and good advice I've been given over the years.  Damned brain cells!!!  cheers :beer: Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on March 24, 2010, 10:01:48 AM
Sounds like you've got Guy Lautard's Bedside Readers. Can't remember which one it's in but he explains how a friend of his ground his tool block almost square with that method. He also mentioned that .001" was a heavy cut on such a hands on grinder.

Hey, you can always mount a grinder on the end of the shaper and do it that way. I've read about somebody doing that but can't remember where. Ani't getting old fun. Can't remember a dam thing.  :lol:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 25, 2010, 09:49:48 AM
You know Bernd, I've got all Guy Lautard's readers, and have gotten a lot of good info out of them, and this was one of the tidbits. By the way, Bernd, if you haven't tried his suggestion of stoning off a file, and using the stoned file for lathe filing, you should.  I finally did, after knowing it for ten or fifteen years, and was shocked at the quality improvement and the overall end finish. If you can't do everything in the world, you can learn an awful lot about what you don't get to, by reading.  About three things went wrong yesterday making it a non-profit day all the way, so, rather than tackle the crank, which has me a bit peeved right now, I went ahead and chucked the chunk of bronze to be the rear main bearing, machined the first side, and bored the main bearing and fit it to the rear shaft, which fits quite nicely with just enough room for the oil, and hopefully tight enough to build good oil pressure, when it's running.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0817.jpg) (http://s894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/?action=view&current=IMGP0817.jpg)
Now all I have to do is chuck on the bearing, center it well, and finish it off for thickness, diameter, a shoulder to bear in the case on, and drill mounting holes.  I'm either getting my motorcycle safety inspected, or getting three welding tanks swapped out for full ones, and then finishing the rear bearing today, all depending on the weather and the clock.  At least when you still have hundreds of small parts to make, you don't have to stop on a project, just because what you're working on isn't cooperating.  The problem is I've got to get a straight crank together, so I can get to the master rod, which I expect to be a real pain, and require lots of time and attention.
    Sometimes it's a real pain to have the real work break your machines, and cost you money when all you want to do is get a simple job done.  I'm still playing with the tech reps over the "proper" insert for my valve re-seating machine, which is obsolete now, even though I bought it new, not twenty years ago.  Hopefully today we, meaning me, the tech rep at MSC, the tech rep at Kennametals, and the tech rep at LeBlonde can all get together and come out with the same answer, and the insert chosen, fit my cutter bar.  That's all I've got for today, too much time on the tele yesterday, and not enough successful work. :bang: :bang:Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 26, 2010, 12:27:09 PM
Every once in a while, strange things happen, and everything falls in place, so I try to let it happen as often as possible.  I took the bearing, half finished, cleaned out all the chips from my three jaw chuck, and chucked the half inch deep bearing in it, and put an indicator in the inside of the bearing.  With only a bit of playing around, I had less than a quarter thousandth of runout even though its a three jaw, so with that, I went to work on the rest of the bearing.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0819.jpg)
chucked on the bearing spigot turning the o.d.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0820.jpg)
machining the shoulder the bearing will bear on in the crankcase, a spigot .062 deep
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0821.jpg)
machining the inner thrust bearing to length, .020, for crank shaft end play
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0822.jpg)
front side of bearing, with spigot and thrust bearing showing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0823.jpg)
back side of bearing, with half an inch of bearing sticking out, for the oil pump to mount over, and feed the crank through.  There are about thirty or so holes which must be drilled for mounting the bearing in the crankcase, holes which will mount the oil pump, and holes which will be oil galleries, as well as bearing pivot holes for the oil pump shafts for both a pressure and a scavenge pump, all of which require the oil pump made, and fit to keep the oil going in its proper path.  All of this must be done before any more can be done to the actual bearing, so I am left with building the oil pump, and finishing the bearing arangement, or finishing the crank properly, and then moving on with the oil pump.  Either way, my next session will be a long and tedious one requiring accurate mating of the work to what is done.  Both require the other as the oil pump requires the drive gear set up on the rear shaft, and the crank shaft requires the oil pump set up, that the gear can be set up properly.  Almost as if it were one big shaft job.  Well, it should be fun, Mad Jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on March 26, 2010, 12:38:54 PM
Coming along nicely Jack lovely work.

I like the shaper smoke signals:- what was the message  :D

Have fun

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on March 27, 2010, 11:50:46 AM
Stew, when I was a small boy, we lived in Barcelona, Spain for about a year, and then in Naples Italy, for a couple more, and reconstruction from after the war was still going on, but with pre-war equipment in a large part.  Road rollers will always be "steam rollers" to me, bucket shovels will always be "steam shovels", and the smooth, steady strokes of a shaper will always be the epitome of machining a straight line, or the cutting out of a channel, and it always goes with the smell of smoking suferated lard oil, which has been with me since I was two or three.  The smoke signal is that of a man, relaxed in his own shop, enjoying properly working machinery, making chips that won't be cursed, and says "all is well with the world", at least inside the metal sides of my shop, and to hell with the world outside it.  If I could get my wife to enjoy that smell and replace the tobacco smell she loves with it, we could live in my shop, and only leave for groceries and the like.  Alas, she enjoys her smokes, she appreciates the finished products of the shop, and she enjoys that broken things can be fixed, but she won't replace the smokes with the appreciation of the smell of sulfer and lard burning slowly.  There are things about Europe I will always miss, much as I love the different ways of America, and I get to enjoy some of them on this project site, interacting with people from places I haven't visited in almost fifty years in some cases.  The smoke signals are a "thanks" for the appreciation, and a "welcome to my shop", for all who wish to look in.  I put the smoke pictures in on purpose, a shaper doesn't look right without smoke coming off the tool.  Mad Jack :thumbup:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on April 08, 2010, 11:03:13 AM
With some machine problems interfering with work, I had to change directions, so I'm working on other parts of the engine, since they all have to be made, for it to be complete.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0842.jpg)While I did use a long center drill to get past the clamping bolt, I neglected to get a photo of it, so pretend there is one in between this comment and the next.
Using a long center drill to get past the clamping bolt, and center drill the mounting holes for the bearing.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0841.jpg)
drilling out the mount holes to size for their screws
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0844.jpg)
drilling some of the other twenty odd holes which will hold the oil pump and allow the oil to move where it needs to go.  The rear main bearing is complete except for some work which must be done with the oil pump for bearing alignment reasons, and for feeds and returns to be properly aligned.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on April 26, 2010, 12:09:36 PM
Having made the rear main bearing so the whole crankshaft could be fitted and tested, I found it to be no where close to straight, and took it out, put it in some V blocks, and put an indicator on it.  With more than fifteen thousandths of wobble on the end of the shafts with the bearings in the V blocks, I did some careful measuring and found the sides of my "crank cheeks" were by no means parallel, but because of cutting them out of hard steel, I had hills and valleys keeping any of the shaft shoulders from seating properly.  I've sat on this for a couple weeks, looked at all the parts laid out, considered all the choices, and decided to make a new crank from scratch, as every part of the old crank has been pushed and prodded, and is no longer trustworthy.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0802.jpg)
cutting the steel blank to the thickness for the crank pin to press into, while keeping the full half inch of thickness for counter weight
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0803.jpg)
Another shot of the shaper, thinning the stock.  Finished piece is flat within half a thousandth over the three inches of width.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0890.jpg)
I've already thinned the one side of the plate for the crank pin clearance, and this is reaming out the crankpin hole, using the DRO so the two plates are identical after I cut the plate in half.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0891.jpg)
The old crank cheeks above, with the new ones, pinned together for finishing the outer contour.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0892.jpg)
Another perspective of the new crank cheeks, now, on to the new shafts.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Darren on April 26, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Nice to see a shaper being used  :clap: Something about them isn't there ...


I would desperately like one of those toolholders for my shaper if anyone has one spare ....
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on April 27, 2010, 07:55:07 AM
Nice to see a shaper being used  :clap: Something about them isn't there ...


I would desperately like one of those toolholders for my shaper if anyone has one spare ....
Hi Darren, I've personally found tooling for shapers is getting extremely hard to find, and end up resorting to making it.  A tool holder like the one I'm using can be fabricated out of a bar and a piece of round stock, suitably bored for essentially a shoulder bolt, with a hole drilled and filed square, and the bar stock left with a hole bored to fit the larger diameter holding the tool, and a smaller hole left for the bolt to stick through.  The holder I have has divisions allowing I think eight positions, but a home made one would essentially be infinite in the angles.  I know I flip this holder around front to back depending on whether I'm using the vise perpendicular to the cut of the shaper, or if it's rotated so the jaw is linear to the line of the cut, to move the tool bit an inch and a quarter or so, to make up for where the vise is on the table.  I hope that gives another line of thinking for that tool. mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 02, 2010, 11:47:42 AM
Well all, that nice steel blank which looks so good on the rag balled up a lump inside the hole when I went to press a shaft in it, so hot rolled steel is not an option, no matter how pretty it looks before the work.  I've been cogitating on this problem, once the holes for the main shafts and for the crank pin as well as the alignment pin are drilled, bored and reamed, trying to use a carbide face mill to reduce the thickness of the web of the crank means interupted cuts, which have no relationship with flat.  After long thinking, I decided to get back to the already hardened steel and try again, another way.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0903.jpg)
these are the two new blanks I will be machining to try to get a crank that is straight.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0907.jpg)
using the shaper to clean one face of the one blank
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0908.jpg)
and working on the other blank.  After cutting both sides of both blanks, I found two to three thousandths from parallel between the two sides of both blanks.  After checking everything else, I checked my parallels I was using, and it turns out I was using a set which are not parallels at all, but just mostly the same size.  Going through my blank tool bit drawer, I found two half inch tool bits which miked out to exactly five hundred, and put both blanks back in the shaper and did a three thousandths finish cut on both sides of both blanks, ending up with the sides parallel within about a thousandth, I think I can work with this, and work out the difference as I shape them to their final dimensions.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0912.jpg)
This is one of the blanks on a tool maker's flat, with four cigarette papers to test flatness, one paper is a bit loose, but still sticks, the other three feel pretty much equal.  The second blank finished up pretty much the same.  I'm caught between machining the cheeks down to their proper thickness at the crank pin, and then drilling, reaming, and boring as appropriate, or doing the cheek thinning first, and then reaming and boring the respective holes.  Since both the main shaft holes, bored, and the crank pin holes, reamed, are in the thinned section, and their presence contributed to the interuption of the cut, leading to not flat surfaces, I think I will try thinning first, and then putting in the respective holes.  Having made three sets of cheeks, I have decided its the long haul, and if they don't work out I've got plenty more old steel, for the next set of blanks to be cut from.  I will produce a straight well mannered crank shaft that fits the bearings, and rotates moving all the rods, no matter how many blanks it takes.  I have taken great liberties with the design of the crankshaft, as I don't like the original design, and none of my experiences does anything but further solidify my belief the original design is lacking in both strength and stability. I am ready to have a straight working crank today, if it is at all possible, however I've got a couple more ideas if these don't produce it.  Thanks for all the comments and support, makes me feel like I'm in a modelling club, something I've always wished for but was never around.  Lots of inspiration for good quality work. :mmr: :beer: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on May 02, 2010, 05:54:06 PM
Pretty presistent you are there Mad Jack.  :clap:

Before long you'll be able to say' "I now know how not to produce bad crank cheecks." (Think fo Thomas Edsion when asked about his light buld. He said he knew 101 ways how not to make them)

Hang in there I'm sure you'll get a pair soon.  :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: kvom on May 02, 2010, 07:15:09 PM
I think milling before drilling will be superior, as milling can relieve some stress in the metal and cause the holes to move.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 03, 2010, 10:12:51 AM
Hi all, Kvom, that is essentially what I concluded, and yesterday, machined the blanks so that all that is left is the reaming of two sets of holes, and the boring of the mainshaft holes, since I don't have that odd sized reamer.  I don't know what kind of steel this is, though I suspect it is something like 1045 or the like, but it must be around C40 or better rockwell by the way it machines.  The hot rolled I tried was easy to get to dimension and form, but didn't even take a light press fit without damage to the bore, and the crank has to be assembled serveral times to put this engine together.  I have a few more ideas if today doesn't make things happy, I only know plenty of people have built this engine before me, and been successful, and therefore I will be.  I will take scrap and weld it together to make a crank if that's what it takes.  I took some pictures yesterday, getting the cheek blanks ready, and will take more today, as I make holes and cut out the profiles and see how things go together.  Till then,  :mmr: :bang: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 07, 2010, 11:23:28 AM
having machined the step in the crank cheek blanks in the shaper, and matched them as close as possible, I put them in the mill vise and drilled and reamed the crank pin hole and the alignment hole, and bore the main shaft holes, as they are not a standard size.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0910.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0906.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0905.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0917.jpg)
with all the holes done, I profiled the blanks by scribing the outline of one of the old ones on both blanks, and cut them out with the bandsaw, then used a belt sander to get them close, and a file to finish them as matching, and to the line.
here's my tangential radius profiling attachment for my work bench, set up to finish off the radius around the crank pin end
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0918.jpg)
another view of the profiling attachment
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0919.jpg)
with the cheeks on a mandrel, machining the radius on the counter weight end on the lathe
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0929.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0925.jpg)
the new cheeks, ready for deburring, with an old cheek showing the un-even surface of the interior which caused the problems with getting the crankshaft straight.  An example of cutting hardened steel with a multi-insert face mill and interupted cuts causing mountains and chasms.
another shot of the cheeks on a mandrel, machining the radius.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0928.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0926.jpg)
I turned the ends of the existing crank pin down to match the reamed holes, assembled the crank, fitted it in the case, found it was too wide, took fifteen thousandths off each end of the crank pin shoulder in a four jaw chuck, pressed the crank back together and found it now fit, with about ten thousandths end play, probably should have measured before machining.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0931.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0936.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0935.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0939.jpg)
I think a new crank pin is in order, this time with real, actual numbers to work with.  I've got a piece of stock missing in the shop, and its what the crank pin and shafts were supposed to be made of, but I can't find it.  When I do, I will make a new crank pin, and a new front prop shaft, as the one I just made seems to have a slight bend in it.  I think the unknown steel I used because it was heat treated is still soft in the core explaining two bent prop shafts which have appeared when they were straight the night before.  Have to find that heat treated 4140 stock and finish the crank, so I can move on to more interesting things, such as the master rod and the oil pumps.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on May 07, 2010, 11:44:03 AM
Great work with the crank Jack  :clap:

When you see the assembly of the crank case it sure looks impressive.

Cheers

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 09, 2010, 10:27:10 AM
Thanks Stew, I feel like part of a model engineering club.  I've been happier in my "projects" in the last few months than ever before, it's nice to see other's work and to have your own work viewed, commented on, and suggestions made when walls are hit.  I have a feeling I'm going to get some things I've put off for a long time, done, because of the extra motivation and the interest watching all the other projects brings out in me.  I'm really looking forward to the starting on the connecting rods, starting with the master rod. :nrocks: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: cedge on May 09, 2010, 09:10:39 PM
Jack...
Having seen one of these up close and personal, I'm in awe of the complexity of the project and the fit and finish you're bringing to it. For all the kind words you've spilled on me of late.... all I can say is.... "Back Atcha Dude". Incredible work!!

Steve
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 11, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
And thank you for the complement, Steve, much appreciated.  The crankshaft had to be disassembled for more work, and I found the front shaft bent again, so a new one was made out of completely different material, and looks to be the last one for this engine, hopefully.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0942.jpg)
Along side, you can see the last four front shafts, only two of which ever got in the crank.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0941.jpg)
Another shot of the crankshaft and bad shafts
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0943.jpg)
At this point, I'm ready to see about the master rod, so I can assemble the crank shaft for its last time and be done with it.  Once it is in place, I should not have to take the crank apart unless I have a catastrophic failure.  We kind of hope that won't happen.  While the drawing is pretty clear, I suspect I will only be using it as a guide, and will make modifications along the way, as all the other parts have experienced.  Tally Ho, and on with the project, as Cedge said, a minute or eight hours, it doesn't matter, it's being in the shop.  or something like that.  I came home last night with a crankshaft in the case that barely turned, and having turned it by hand all evening, it spins over very nicely and should do well with pressure oil fed to it.  ta ta for now, mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 12, 2010, 12:37:05 PM
Well, I started on the master rod yesterday, it calls for a chunk of 6061 .750 thick, three and three quarters long, and an inch and five eighths wide.  I have half inch, and one inch, but no three quarter, so a chunk of "jig plate" aluminum plate which has been surface ground on both sides, was found in the cut off pile, being nothing like rectangular, I cut out a piece big enough, laid some lines on it, and milled two sides parallel, and both ends perpendicular, and then put it on parallels to drill and ream the crank pin location, and the wrist pin hole.  Then I started flycutting the first side to thin it down to three quarters
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0944.jpg)
to keep the sides parallel, I cut about forty thousandths at a time, taking an eighth off the first side.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0945.jpg)
second cut
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0946.jpg)
last cut on first side
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0947.jpg)
first cut on second side
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0949.jpg)
getting close
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0950.jpg)
miking the blank for the final cut
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0948.jpg)
Having drilled and reamed a quarter inch hole to locate the crankpin hole, and drilled and reamed the wrist pin hole, time for the four jaw
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0952.jpg)
After using a quarter inch pin in the tailstock chuck to get the blank pretty much in place, the last few thousandths of centering is done with an indicator
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0952.jpg)
another shot at the centering, and the end of the day
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0951.jpg)
maybe the crank will be a one time proposition, it'd be nice, at least the blank is on size, and in place.
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 16, 2010, 11:26:25 AM
With the master rod blank in the four jaw, starting to machine it down to size
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/Copy2ofCopyofIMGP0955.jpg)
both sides will be machined down leaving the "big end" thick, for the slave rods, and bringing the master rod down to 5/16ths thickness
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/Copy2ofCopyofIMGP0959.jpg)
after leaving a shoulder for the bushing, and an inch and a half big end, the rod is flipped in the four jaw, re-centered, and the second side begun
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/Copy2ofCopyofIMGP0962.jpg)
With both sides faced off, the master rod is ready for cutting out the rod for the #1 cylinder, and machining off the excess around the big end
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0979.jpg)
With a 5/16ths button in for the wrist pin hole, lines for the sides of the rod are scribed with a 3/8ths hole reamed on either side to locate the bottom of the taper of the rod sides.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0974.jpg)
after scribing the lines, it is set up on the rotary table and centered for machining off the excess
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0982.jpg)
light cuts and careful operation are the key to not letting a cutter grab the part and take a bigger bite than you intend, when it is almost done, I removed it, cut the rough lines of the "rod", reinstalled it on the rotary table to finish the radius on each side of the "rod", as it connects with the big end, the sides are also milled out straight with the slight taper in the rod.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/Copy2ofCopyofIMGP0990.jpg)
this shows the main operation of reducing the big end to round, lots of swarf flying
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0992-1.jpg)
the master rod, ready for the sides to be milled and the recess in the big end, milled to allow the slave rods to fit to the master.  The rod is set up on the rotary table, an arbor has been made to hold a 3/16ths cutter which will be used to mill the recess around the big end of the rod.  This is how I left it last night, and today will see how the milling goes.  With a bit of luck, I will be working on slave rods next.  mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 16, 2010, 12:15:51 PM
Blummin good work well shown, Jack!  :clap:

I`m just following, and appreciating what you`re doing, quietly.....  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on May 16, 2010, 12:27:56 PM
Blummin good work well shown, Jack!  :clap:

I`m just following, and appreciating what you`re doing, quietly.....  :thumbup:

David D

Me too

Great job

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: shoey51 on May 16, 2010, 06:13:34 PM
Blummin good work well shown, Jack!  :clap:

I`m just following, and appreciating what you`re doing, quietly.....  :thumbup:

David D

Me too

Great job

Stew
Me three
great work :thumbup:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 17, 2010, 10:02:53 AM
You'all better watch all those complements, might make my head swell, and I might not make it through the door!  Thanks for looking and the comments, it feels like a club or pretty close.  In finishing out the master rod, I started out centering the rod on the rotary table, preparing to cut the slot around the big end, the space for the slave rods to fit in and get pinned in place.  I started with a 3/16ths side cutting slitting saw, centered on the width of the rod, taking .100 in passes, and stopping just short of touching the "rod shaft" on either direction
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0995.jpg)
lots of swarf, not much cutting pressure or torque on the rod by the cutter
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0993.jpg)
another cut, more swarf
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0996.jpg)
one of the last cuts with the initial cutter, good depth, width is .010 on both top and bottom as well as depth
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP0999.jpg)
first cuts with the 5/16ths keyway cutter, stoned the face and the clearance angle on the cutter to give a clean finish cut, before starting the cutting
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1000.jpg)
one of the final cuts, I took out the .010 on top and bottom in three cuts, two of .150 depth, the last cut being .055 taking out the last of the width, and taking out the final .010 depth.  This clears the back side of the recess for the slave rods to swivel side to side, and required touch up with a 5/16ths end mill to ensure clearance for #2 rod and #9, as they are where the final cuts meet with the straight lines of the rod meeting the "big end", and ensuring clearance using the key cutter would eat into the shank of the rod too much.  Final clearance for these two slave rods was made carving out the radius left by the end mill, with a pocket knife, leaving a flat face top and bottom for the slave rods.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1016.jpg)
with a piece of scrap in the vise, I drilled it and reamed it for the 3/16ths pin the wrist pin size, and using a pin in the hole, and the rod end over the pin, and the side of an end mill, I radiused the small end of the rod
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1017.jpg)
the last step is drilling an oil hole in the small end, to oil the wrist pin when it is in place, this was done with a #1 center drill, leaving a conical center to hold oil.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1022.jpg)
the finished master rod, lying next to the crank shaft it will have to fit on.  The plans call for a bushing for the master rod to run on, I didn't have one long enough, but I did have six that were new and too short.  Since the crank pin is supposed to have a groove around it to allow lots of oil to this bushing, I chose to press in two bushings from the opposite sides, with their inside bevel end both meeting in the middle, and essentially forming an internal groove in the bushings, then reamed the bushings, and turned the ends off to final length to fit between the cheeks of the crank.  Next move is to finally drill the oil passages in the crank now that I have a master rod to test them in situ.  I don't like the design of the slave rods, so I will be modifying it a bit, to give them some character, and have them look more natural.  I have a dozen or so slave rods from a full sized Jacobson radial engine for examples.  While the master rod came out as expected, and appears to be in spec and should work, it looks like a model, and less like an original than I think it should.  If it doesn't work and fit right the first time, I will redo it, only with some different aspects so it looks more like an original has more radii where planes of it intersect for strength and greater ease in machining.  We shall see how things fit together before anything like that takes place.  I chose to machine lightening grooves in the sides of the rod, rather than in the faces, following the original rods.   :headbang:  mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on May 17, 2010, 07:04:53 PM
Lookin' real good Mad Jack.  :thumbup:

Looks a bit scary using that cutter and only having one bolt to hold it all down. I bet that would have made you mess your pants if that had come loose.

Oh, go back and check your math. You said you had .010 left and then took off .015 and .055. Looks like you would have been milling air. Let me guess, you got the decimal point in the wrong place.  ::)

Keep up the nice work.

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 18, 2010, 08:47:18 AM
Lookin' real good Mad Jack.  :thumbup:

Looks a bit scary using that cutter and only having one bolt to hold it all down. I bet that would have made you mess your pants if that had come loose.

Oh, go back and check your math. You said you had .010 left and then took off .015 and .055. Looks like you would have been milling air. Let me guess, you got the decimal point in the wrong place.  ::)

Keep up the nice work.

Bernd
Hi Bernd, it's a lot easier keeping track of all those numbers while you're making them, then while you're trying to remember exactly what you did last night.  That last cut was a light clean up cut on three different surfaces, two parallel, and one perpendicular and round, I think I left five thousandths cut on the actual round part of the rod and fifteen top and bottom for the keyway cutter to clean up.  thanks for keeping me honest, wouldn't want this board to look like politicians like to do machine work.
With that cleared up, I looked at the master rod, and took down a slave rod from a Jacobson radial engine, looked at the rather round, slightly worked analog in the plans, and decided slave rods were boring, and I ought to finish the crank, so when it's assembled, it can stay together, so I prepared to drill the two remaining oil passages, the ones that are not parallel or perpendicular to the shafts.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1026.jpg)
master rod adjacent to the slave rod
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1029.jpg)
slave rod rolled over to show profile
starting to square up the block which will become the oil passage guide
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1027.jpg)
another shot of the block in the shaper
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1028.jpg)
the finished block on the crankshaft, ready for use
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1030.jpg)
finished block locked between pressed together crank cheeks
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1031.jpg)
the holes are drilled 45 degrees to pierce the crankpin, the cheek and finally the mainshaft and main bearings
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1032.jpg)
another view of the crank with the block
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1033.jpg)
the top view of the crank, ready for drilling
after drilling, the crank was split to remove the guide block, this picture shows the hole leaving the crank pin, and entering the cheek of the crank
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1038.jpg)
this picture shows the passage drilled to the front main bearing from the crank pin
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1035.jpg)
another view of the front of the crank and the path of the oil passage
the bottom side of the front mainshaft bearing, showing the oil hole, oil seeping out of this bearing will oil the cam gears and cam, along with the front prop shaft bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1039.jpg)
the front mainshaft bearing with its oil hole
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1041.jpg)
when the modern day drill driver didn't want to drill the oil passages, I broke out the old standby, my black and decker, had to pay a dollar at the flea market for it twenty six or seven years ago, and put a cord on it.  Most of the afternoon making the guide block, which by the way, was supposed to have a slit in it, and a clamp bolt but was avoided by making it a thousandth too long, so the cheeks of the crank held it solidly in place while drilling.  It took about twenty minutes to drill both oil passages, but I have the guide block for another engine if I were to build one.  Much more exciting afternoon than making eight boring slave rods.  Now I have to plug the ends of the oil passages in the crankshaft, to keep the oil going where its supposed to.  That will complete the crankshaft, except for final fit, and let me get on with boring slave rods and then an oil pump.  Thanks for watching, ta ta for now,  :thumbup: :headbang: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 18, 2010, 08:59:56 AM
I think I missed a photo, or I tried to go too fast for a rainy day with a satalite link, here's a picture of the oil passage leaving the crank pin, and entering the rear cheek, connecting to the main oil passage from the oil pump.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1034.jpg)
I think slave rods are in order, something easy, I'm not ready to build the oil pump yet.  ta ta for now, mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 20, 2010, 11:03:03 AM
Yesterday was a bad day at Black Rock, clouds hung over, and fine work would not turn out well, so after wasting a couple hours hunting the right material for the slave rods, I decided to remake the front propeller shaft bearing cover.  I'd made one long ago, but in cutting it off from the thin piece of mother material, gouged it pretty good with the cut off tool.  It was on the back side, so it would barely show on the edge, but I would know what it looked like.  On top of that, I either had to take out the crankshaft and machine the bearing shoulder to center the crank in the case, or make allowance for the bearing position in the cover, and save a lot of work and possible heartbreak, if the crankshaft were to do something stupid while turning it.  I put a piece of scrap in the chuck, turned the inside profile, to match the bearing, bored the .075 depth the bearing stuck out the front cover, and flipped it, so I could put a radius on the outside, and drill and counterbore the six mounting holes.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1043.jpg)
the cover, set on the mill for drilling the hole circle for the six holes.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1045.jpg)
The cover with the holes done, counterbored, and cleaned up for mounting.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1048.jpg)
The cover, mounted on the engine's front cover
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1050.jpg)
a slightly better perspective on the cover, mounted in place.
having all the crank assembled, with the master rod in place, the main bearings screwed up solid as they will be when running, I have been oiling all the bearings with teflon bearing gun oil (CLP), and spent the past two evenings spinning the crank around, using the bit of bar stock drilled, and held on with the prop nut, to work in the bearings, and loosen things up.  Each step adds a new surface that bears on something, increasing the drag, and needing working out.  It is starting to feel like an engine, and not just a shaft with a brake on it.  I can almost see light down the tunnel, only a few hundred more parts to make and it will be done.  That's all for now,  :headbang: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 25, 2010, 11:24:50 AM
Lookin' real good Mad Jack.  :thumbup:

Looks a bit scary using that cutter and only having one bolt to hold it all down. I bet that would have made you mess your pants if that had come loose.

Oh, go back and check your math. You said you had .010 left and then took off .015 and .055. Looks like you would have been milling air. Let me guess, you got the decimal point in the wrong place.  ::)

Keep up the nice work.

Bernd
Hi Bernd, I ain't scared, I can do anything!!  The key to this is plenty of surface area on the bottom side of the rod on the surface or the spindle, and plenty of surface area on the top clamping area, with a snug fine thread bolt.  As near as I can tell, the master rod didn't move a bit from start to finish.  Put it down to too much seat of the pants engineering and not enough schooling.
But now I've got some progress, I've spun the crank with the master rod on it in the cases for a few nights now, got it good and loose without much slop, feels like good bearings, meanwhile, I've been getting the slave rods ready.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1051.jpg)
machining some 3/8ths plate on both sides to get it down to 5/16ths and parallel.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1054.jpg)
with the plate to thickness and squared off, I drilled and reamed holes for nine slave rods, two and an 1/8th in apart for the pins, then scribed them with lines, and cut the blanks out on the band saw
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1057.jpg)
nine blanks, ready for machining to shape and size
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1058.jpg)
with a pin in a drilled and reamed hole in a block in the vise, radiusing the ends of the rods by hand, very careful on the "hungry" side of that end mill
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1060.jpg)
milling the rod ends, with a better perspective of the mill in the shop
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1061.jpg)
a pile of slave rods with radiuses on each end
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1064.jpg)
with a pin in each end, for position, milling the rods to width with an end mill, each one then flipped and the other side milled
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1065.jpg)
getting ready to use a 5/32nds ball mill to slot each side .090 deep to give proper "H" profile with about .100ths web in the middle
doing the ball milling, I don't have a 3/16ths collet, so the ball mill is in a chuck, but the runout is under half a thousandth, so it works fine at 2200 rpm, even gives a nice finish
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1067.jpg)
each rod is milled, burrs removed, flipped, and opposite side milled using the DRO to establish ends of slot standard
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1076.jpg)
after cleaning them, each rod has an oil hole drilled in the ends with a #1 center drill
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1077.jpg)
drilling oil holes in the other end
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1072.jpg)
a pile of slave rods, ready for fitting
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1071.jpg)
another shot of the rods
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1084.jpg)
a rear view of the engine with the crank, master rod, and slave rods installed, rear main bearing removed for the photo
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1078.jpg)
another perspective of the engine with the rods and crankshaft installed
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1079.jpg)
looking down on the engine with crank and rods installed
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1080.jpg)
a frontal view of engine with front cover, bearing cover installed, along with crankshaft and full complement of rods
Now I have to order some 2024 alloy aluminum for the pistons, it stands up to heat better than the 6000 series aluminums, and order some cast iron, or see if some of the scrap I have, can be machined for a good set of rings.  I expect to end up buying the cast iron as the quality is important if the rings are to seat in.  I think with the crank and rods out of the way, it is probably time to build the oil pumps, one to feed the main bearings and rods, and the other to scavenge all the oil out, and return it to the oil tank as this is a dry sump engine.   that's all for now, folks, thanks for looking, hope you enjoy.  mad jack :bugeye:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: crankshafter on May 25, 2010, 12:45:18 PM
Hi Jack
Only one thing to say: I'm not surprised :clap: :thumbup:

Regards
Crankshafter
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Bernd on May 25, 2010, 04:07:23 PM
Very nice Jack.   :ddb:

I'm impressed with your mas production work there with them rods. Nice job. :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Rob.Wilson on May 25, 2010, 04:16:08 PM
Hi M.J 

Just read through this post from the beginning  ,,,,,,,great read  :clap: :clap: :clap:  outstanding workmanship  :bow: :bow: :bow:  , one day i will grow some balls and have ago at an aero engine  :lol:

Regards Rob   
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 29, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
To all my friends and onlookers, sometimes work seems to insist on inserting its self into the day, and interfere with important things like model engineering.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1093.jpg)
I have this frame I'm making, which needs some machine work to match up the pieces for welding, especially where the backbone meets the front main tubes, so I measured the angle, clamped the main frame tubes to a tilting table, and set up the boring head to bore at the right angle, to the size of the backbone
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1085.jpg)
the angle plate setup with the main frame tubes clamped to it
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1087.jpg)
setting up the boring head.  guestimating the diameter touching off the cutter at the tube, rotating the boring head 180, and putting a rule between the touch-off point, and the cutter tip
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1089.jpg)
taking the first cuts and adjusting positioning for proper centering
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1090.jpg)
more cuts, everything in good position now.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1091.jpg)
main tubes finished, testing the fit with frame in a jig
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1092.jpg)
nice tight fit, no unseamly gaps, looks good
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1093.jpg)
view from the front looks good too.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1112.jpg)
with the backbone in the vise, set at the right angle, preparing to fish-mouth the end to fit closely to the seatpost tube
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1113.jpg)
boring done, everything aligned ready to fit on the frame
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1114.jpg)
with the just cut end sitting on a C clamp, a perfect fit on the seat post tube
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1115.jpg)
checking to ensure the fit is still good with main frame tubes, after second operation, everything is just right.  Now, back to the important things.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1097.jpg)
the parts for the oil pump, steel drive gear, two brass driven gears, and two pair of smaller gears to pump the oil in, and then collect it and pump it back out.  The plans call for the aluminum blank to be turned round, the machine work done, and then the pump cut out to its proper shape when all the details have been machined.  I didn't want to waste a perfectly good piece of stock so the piece I'm using will be less than round, but have all the area where details are machined in, just pretend its round when you see it in the chuck and later in the mill vise.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1102.jpg)
the blank, mostly octagonal
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1104.jpg)
centering the blank with a rod and an indicator
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1105.jpg)
first side faced and turned down to 3.374, drilling before boring to a tight fit on the main bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1106.jpg)
first cuts boring to fit the main bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1108.jpg)
more boring
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1109.jpg)
final cut, blank flipped and centered, o.d. turned to match first side at 3.374
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1110.jpg)
second side, ready to be faced down to final thickness of .468
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1116.jpg)
blank set up in the mill vise with parallels which are removed, for drilling and tapping mounting holes for the rear main bearing
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1117.jpg)
rear main bearing bolted in place for line drilling and reaming oil pump shaft holes through bearing and pump body
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1118.jpg)
each of four holes is center drilled, drilled and reamed to ensure accuracy
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1121.jpg)
reaming through the main bearing and the pump body to ensure alignment
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1122.jpg)
pre-boring one of the gear cavities with an end mill
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1123-1.jpg)
another cavity pre-bored.  final fit will be half a thousandth over the gear size
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1124-1.jpg)
finish boring the scavenge pump gear cavity
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1125.jpg)
finish boring one of the pressure pump gear cavities
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1128.jpg)
finish boring the second pressure pump gear cavity
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1132.jpg)
rear main bearing with all the oil pump shaft holes line reamed in place.  what is left is drilling the pump body for its passages, cutting it to profile, drilling the crankcase with the main bearing and pump in place to fit the pump to the crankcase and ensure free movement of the oil.

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Rob.Wilson on May 29, 2010, 04:49:26 PM
Hi MJ

What's the frame for ?   how dose the head stock fit to it ? is them Suzuki rims you have there ?

Those are well fitting joints ,, you will get a nice clean weld on em  :thumbup:


The oil pump is looking great  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Regards Rob


Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: cidrontmg on May 29, 2010, 06:46:40 PM
Hi MJH,
"sometimes work seems to insist on inserting its self into the day, and interfere with important things like model engineering."
I take that as meaning the bike frame is a customer job, not for yourself?
Immaculate work with the radial. Your skills and patience are way beyond anything I will ever achieve.   :clap:
I´m very happy that I can still enjoy seeing how things should be done, with your (and many others´) build logs. Intimidating, many times, but also challenging, and very educative. Being alone, without anyone to ask for advice or to offer encouragement is ok, if that´s what has to be. But it sure is nice to watch other people´s solutions to problems, and just knowing that there really ARE other people there who are similarly affected, who want to machine metal, not for profit, but because it´s fun, is a consolation when people around you express doubts about your mental state  :)
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 30, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
Hi Cidrontmg, the frame is for an old friend, and I've gotten way behind, mostly because I stay way behind.  I really need to finish the frame really soon, just as a personal obligation but there is no end to little things that have to be done "right now", and I'm about the only one around who works on old motorcycles or really old machinery that's used for work and not play, so I get overwhelmed sometimes.  As to what you will achieve, I can only say I never thought I'd be doing what I'm doing now, even twenty years ago, much less forty, when I first started thinking about forever.  What you say about build logs and watching others is my primary means of entering the field, I'm trained in electronics and I'm good at it, but it is something I loathe doing because there's no room for an engine in a radio or radar set.  I think if you dropped me on a deserted island somewhere, all alone, I'd have a lathe built in a bit, a furnace of some sort, and would be machining what ever was available for stock.  I feel sorry for people who don't love what they do so much they resent having to eat and sleep because it takes away from work, they are definitely missing out in my book.  They can question my mental state, but I can question their qualifications for having a question.  Part of my personal faith is the fact I can't live without creating something, which suggests I was created to create, at least in my mind.  As I see it, if you don't LOVE life, you need to go back to where ever it was you lost that love, and figure out how to get it back, and then do it.  When you look at all the great things you can see on forums like this, we are surrounded by people like us who do love life. :nrocks: :ddb: :lol:  mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: ieezitin on May 30, 2010, 01:23:14 PM
Holy flying chicken feet batman!!! What a fit!

I have welded 1500lbs Extra heavy wall chrome molly high pressure steam piping in nuclear power plants and never had a fit given to me as close as that!!.

You tell your biker buddy his ass is resting on a billion dollar frame.

To my knowledge the navy is the only outfit equipped with a purpose built pipe contour bevel machine for prepping pipe on nuke subs, which is mandatory on all gas & fluid systems on the vessel.

You struck a nerve with me on the topic of loving or hating what you do for a living, I emigrated here to the states back in 1990 and I applied for a machinists job and the guy gave me the position for $9.50 an hour!. I nearly faced punched the guy for the insult.

I next applied for a job at a local mechanical contractor and was asked if I welded and I said yes, he asked if I could pipe weld and I replied yes but prefer not to because I drives me insane, anyways I got the job and my pay shot up to  $27.75an hour. 20 years later I still pipe weld and hate every inch of weld I lay but I make a fortune at it. My real passion is machining that’s what I apprenticed for so I had to build my own shop and stuff it full of goodies to satisfy my desires, I just wish machining paid better then I would be in heaven.

But heaven is 50 feet from my house, I even got a little refrigerator installed the other day it holds a 30 pack nice and snug, my wife told me yesterday she is going to wally Mart and buying me a little trash can for the empties and it will rest next to the fridge. :beer:

Your build on this engine is superb sir!. Your techniques and approaches to solving problems are a great source of learning to all fledgling machinists, ive been doing this for 30 years and learned a couple of neat tricks you have shown in your posts, especially the grease gun while tapping small holes. :clap:


Keep being sane Jack!.   :headbang:             Anthony
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on May 31, 2010, 11:13:19 AM
To ieezitin, I have been welding up custom frames for about twenty years, ever since I bought a decent mig welder, and had the shop to do it in.  I was not happy with the quality nor the choices offered in "custom" frames, and I've welded up too many repairs in stock frames, so there had to be a third choice when I finished raising my children, and got back to building bikes, engines, and the like.  I've gone through many changes, two previous designs of tubing benders, different tube and many methods of making things fit.  Grinding will get you close enough, but machining gets you right on.  Grinding takes just as long, and the test fits always piss you off.  Becky, my biker buddy, knows she's getting a great frame because she wanted mine, and I told her I'd build her a duplicate, but mine's not for sale.
   For twenty years, I worked when I could where I could doing what ever I could get for outside work, while I served in the Marine Corps.  I was medically retired due to the onset of Multiple Sclerosis in 97, but had served some four years with it before it got bad enough I couldn't lead from the front, so I had plenty of time to get ready to be retired out.  My wife and I bought our "farm", about sixty acres out in the country, the shop is about fifty feet from the house, and I walk to work every day.  I barely make enough to cover the electric and other "costs" of running the shop, but I can't sit, there's things I want but can't buy, and there's jobs to be done no one else wants to do, mainly repairs to old and antique machinery, being used still, because that's what's around, and I like fixing things.  The best part about this forum is that I get to watch what other people love to do, and thus do a great job at it, and see and learn, and I get to share my own trials and tribulations, taking the hints and ideas I get, and improving my tool kit as I go.  As I see it, if you can't learn something every day, you're not trying.  Being better than yourself tomorrow than you are today is the best way to build a good perspective of yourself, and gives you a challenge you can fulfill each and every day pretty much, and people who know they know how to do things are generally happy people.  I've done pretty much the same thing my whole life because there's never an end to broken old things that people want back because the new replacements aren't as good.  The pay's not great, but the people are, I make a living, and I'm happy, they're happy, the taxman is happy, and I sometimes even get to town more than once in a month.
    In working on the oil pump body for the engine, I ran into a small snag.  The sump pump, which extracts the used oil and returns it to the tank via a filter, went fine, with little problem as the inlet is a groove "routed" with an 1/8 in end mill on the working face of the pump body, which goes against the rear main bearing, and the outlet goes out through the side of the pump body, through a matching hole in the crank case, and returns to the oil tank.  The pressure oil pump, which takes oil from the tank and feeds it in to the rear main bearing, through passages in the crankshaft, oiling the master rod directly, and the slave rods with spray flung by the crank, then on to the front main bearing, after which it seeps out into the front gear cavity where the gear train driving the cam are housed.
   To get the pressure fed oil to the crank, I drilled an 1/8th inch hole through from the outside of the pump housing, aligned across the middle of the pump its self, and through the body in, where it will guide the drill to open a hole in the side of the rear main bearing, and thus apply the pressure to that bearing, and thus all the way through the oil system as described.  The problem is the hole to feed the pressure pump should be going under the pump cavity, with a hole drilled to connect it to the inlet side of the cavity, a hole connecting it to the output side, and with the quarter inch or so of space under the cavity, blocked off after drilling the hole in the bearing, to separate the gravity feed to the pump, from the pressure output which should be going to the bearing.  In following the design drawings, I found that I ended up drilling the 1/8th inch hole with perhaps .025 of the hole penetrating the gear cavity, allowing pressure oil to flow back to the inlet side without ever leaving the pump, via the slot in the gear cavity.  I should have done the math, simply subtracting the depth of the gear cavity (.188) from the total thickness of the pump body (.468), and calculating the stated entry point on the side of the body, which would have led me to see the drill would end up through the gear cavity.  The eighth inch oil port is counter bored for a quarter 28 thread for the oil fitting and I could have kept the counter bore on center of the body, and drilled the 1/8 in port off center in the counterbore, allowing it to pass under the gear cavity, and putting a plug directly under the gear cavity, held in with loctite, to separate the inlet from the pressure feed outlet, but this is all consideration after the fact.  I have two choices, and the first does not eliminate the second.  First, since the pump body is line reamed with the rear main bearing, I can attempt to fix it by putting a piece of 1/8th inch aluminum rod in the drilled hole where it penetrates the gear cavity, weld a quarter inch piece in place, blocking inlet from outlet, and milling the weld down to the bottom of the gear cavity.  If I can do that without distorting the pump body, it will be the best answer, I think.  The other choice is to turn a new blank pump body, set it up as the first one was with the rear main bearing, and do my best to align ream the shaft holes in the new pump body without distorting the reamed holes in the rear main bearing, and from there, taking lessons learned, and getting the pump feed passage beneath the gear cavity and thus only needing plugging.  The key issue is not distorting the reamed holes in the rear bearing, as that chunk of bearing bronze was about fifty bucks, and I don't want to buy another chunk, and make a new rear main bearing.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1133.jpg)
using an 1/8th in ball mill to mill the inlet passage for the pressure pump feed
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1134.jpg)
using the same cutter to mill the pressure pump output port to provide pressure to the rear main bearing, note the long groove machined on the left side angled slightly from the center at its base, to the scavenge pump cavity at the top of the groove, this is milled with an 1/8th in ball mill, to intersect with the passage from the oil sump
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1136.jpg)
drilling the 1/8 inch port feeding the scavenge pump, this port will intersect the groove milled in the face of the pump body leading to the scavenge pump.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1137.jpg)
counterboring the oil feed for 1/4-28 infeed oil fitting, this is counter bored at 5/16ths .032 deep for a sealing o-ring between pump body and crank case, the 1/8th inch hole has been drilled through to the center hole which slips over the rear main bearing, and this hole will guide drilling the oil hole in the main bearing allowing pressure to flow through the crankshaft feeding all the bearings and gears
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1139.jpg)
the working face of the pump body, with the gear cavities showing.  Note the groove in the middle of the gear cavity on the right, this is where the feed drilling broke into the gear cavity and needs resolution.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1140-1.jpg)
another picture of the pump working face with the pump cavities showing.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1145.jpg)
a close up showing the pump gear cavities with the scavenge on the left, with the angled slot feeding it, the pressure pump gear cavity on the right, note the groove across the middle of the gear cavity, this cannot remain and the pump move oil.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1146.jpg)
picture of the scavenge pump up close, with the feed groove visible, and the hole for the outfeed visible on the left edge of the cavity centered on the side, this intersects with a drilled passage from the left edge of the pump body which is also counterbored for an o-ring, to seal against the crankcase when the pump and main bearing are in place.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1149.jpg)
showing the whole of the unfinished pump body, with the feed groove of the scavenger pump seen leading to the pump cavity, and the bottom end of the groove having a hole connecting it to the drilled passage that comes up from the bottom edge of the pump body.  This picture shows the unwanted groove in the feed pump clearly, on the right side.  When the pump body is finished, most of the metal will be gone, with it being approximately "T" shaped, scavenging up through the vertical of the "T", pumping used oil out, through the left arm of the "T", to a filter to the external tank, and taking in fresh oil through the right hand arm of the "T", and pressure feeding it through the rear main bearing, through the crankshaft, to all the bearings and the gears to fall to the sump and be cycled through again.  I expect the fix of welding up a plug for the groove to work otherwise I will be machining a new body out of new material, with a different "take" on the feed intake oil passage, one not requiring welding up the body hopefully.  This may appear a setback, but no project moves to completion without glitches, and this is really a rather minor one and just a slight pain, not a worry.  I'm looking to see the end of this little aspect hopefully today.  Ta Ta for now,  :ddb: :nrocks: :headbang: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: ieezitin on May 31, 2010, 12:20:12 PM
Oh lord.

We must be lost brothers from time long ago. I too own a 10 acre farm here in Maryland, I too am the go to guy for repairs for farmers, dump truck operators builders and such. I don’t set the world on fire making a living at it but we too scrape buy, god provides just enough for what we need.

Our kids have gone and in the last year I have become a little insular and just want to tinker and fiddle in my shops and never leave the homestead so my local community supplies all my needs, bale spears, snow ploughs, manure spreaders, tractors and combines are now my life, I just machined up and made a whole new power take off for a Massey Ferguson 1952 hydraulic pump, the owner was going to be charged around $1000 for the set up my charge was $250 and a 30 pack of Natti Ice. Whata deal uh!. But I never had to hit I95 and risk getting killed by some flaky tart applying make up while talking and texting on her $250 a month phone contract. Plus I had the added pleasure of company from my faithful pit bull who loves to sit and watch me work.

Jack I feel we are both the same in nature and motivated by the same things, its great and a pleasure coupled by being honored to know you.

Here is my Sanctuary from 2000ft.


(http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww212/ieezitin/Machine%20shop/general%20folder/Farmshotfromair1.jpg)

Here is some links from past builds
http://s721.photobucket.com/albums/ww212/ieezitin/John%20Deer%20Bale%20Spear%20Crush%20bar/

http://s721.photobucket.com/albums/ww212/ieezitin/tractor%20pull%20project/

Here is my machine shop
http://s721.photobucket.com/albums/ww212/ieezitin/Machine%20shop/The%20Machine%20shop/
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on June 01, 2010, 07:21:03 PM
Hi brother tool makers, I wanted to say how hard it is not to fill this log with personal comments since so many people comment and they are all interesting, unique, instructive, all in all, very hard not to simply go on and on with the dialog, but this is supposed to be a build log so I do try to keep the commentary brief although it might not seem like it.  Among the things that had to be done, is to drill and ream out the four gears which comprise the two pumps, as they come with an eighth inch bore and need to be three sixteenths, to fit.  The plans called for two different "jigs", each a piece of aluminum round stock with a hole bored and slot cut to clamp the two different size gears in the three jaw, and do the job in the lathe.  I ran into my 5C collet rack, and realised I could do two gears in the 7/16th collet, and two in the 1/2 in collet, so I put the first collet in a square block, with the gear held tight with a knurled nut holding the collet in, clamped the block in my mill vise vertically, using a good square and put an eighth inch pin in the first gear bore and centered the spindle over the pin.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1156.jpg)
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1158.jpg)
from there, I drilled a .180 through the gear and followed with the .1875 reamer.
 (http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1160.jpg)
  Yesterday, while waiting for someone coming over, I turned a piece of aluminum rod down to an eighth inch for about a half inch, the cut off a piece about a quarter of an inch long, pushed it through the feed hole until it was centered in the space where there wasn't supposed to be a space, and managed to tig weld it in place with only a bit of melting of nearby sharp edges.  With a nice sharp quarter inch end mill, I put the pump body in the vice on parallels, nicely hammered down on them snug, brought the tip of the mill, not running, to the bottom of the other pump cavity and zeroed my z axis.  I then put the cutter in the cavity with the large (comparatively) lump of aluminum in the middle, kind of like a dump truck backed up to the cavity and dumped a load, and proceeded to take the lump down to half a thousandth off zero, and then twiddle the X and Y feed handles until the bottom of the cavity looked pretty much clear of all the weld that had been sticking up.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1154.jpg)
one view of the cleaned up cavity
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1153.jpg)
and one more of the cavity
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1152.jpg)
I ordered a lump of 4140 heat treated an inch long and three and a quarter inches in diameter after finding out an inch cost exactly the same as half an inch, so when it showed up today with the man in the brown truck, I put Joe, my hacksaw man on to cutting the lump in half, since that's all I need for the cam.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1162.jpg)
He's pretty reliable, gets a bit off track now and then, but just put a bit of cutting oil in the cut ever once in a while, and he'll get the job done.
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/madjackghengis/IMGP1161.jpg)
He's about done, and I'll have a spare piece of steel as well as the piece for the cam.  Well, that's about all I got done in the last day or so, Rob, I'll be milling the back bone of the frame for the neck, so I'll post pictures of how I do it, that's to get the neck nice a plumb with the frame.  Those are not Suzuki wheels, they're off Buell's, and are going to end up on something or another, I just haven't figured out what yet.  I've got one, a seventeen, going on the back of a custom bike I'm building, but haven't a clue on the ones you see at least not yet.
    Ieezitin, I haven't got to look at your photos yet, but I will, and send you an e-mail, the arial view is absolutely gorgeous, I like that shade of green, and like being surrounded by it.  I tried to post something this morning, but I must have rushed it, getting out for my monthly infusion at the doctor, and it didn't post.  I'd call it brothers of a different mother, myself.  Life goes a lot better if you're pro-active and flexible.  I expect we'll be conversing more as time goes on.  ttfn, mad jack the Irishman, out in the noonday sun :ddb: :lol:

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Mad_Grasshopper on August 14, 2010, 03:45:10 PM
Greetings all,

I have known Jack for about 13 years. There is not a time I have left his workshop without having learned something new. There are ALWAYS interesting projects to see. Even the lounge chair in his shop is an interesting story.

I remember a few years ago when jack showed me the magazine ad for plans of this engine. I had been discussing my self-study of WWII radial engine vibration with him. I considered the model an incredibly interesting but daunting project. He told me he was going to make one one day.

Boy, was I blown away when I first laid eyes on that crank case! Amazing work.  :bugeye:

Regards,
Jamie
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: dsquire on August 14, 2010, 04:59:27 PM
Greetings all,

I have known Jack for about 13 years. There is not a time I have left his workshop without having learned something new. There are ALWAYS interesting projects to see. Even the lounge chair in his shop is an interesting story.

I remember a few years ago when jack showed me the magazine ad for plans of this engine. I had been discussing my self-study of WWII radial engine vibration with him. I considered the model an incredibly interesting but daunting project. He told me he was going to make one one day.

Boy, was I blown away when I first laid eyes on that crank case! Amazing work.  :bugeye:

Regards,
Jamie

Jamie

Welcome to MadModder. I haven't known Jack near as long as you but I look forward to reading every post that he makes as there is always something to learn in each one.

I would like to invite you to start a new post in the "Introductions" thread and tell us a bit about yourself. Looking forward to hearing more from you.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on August 15, 2010, 08:40:05 AM
Well, for those who have been so graciously following this log, and are probably impatient with me now, with my flame sucker engine running, I will be getting back to the main job at hand, this here radial.  I am waiting on getting the cylinders back, I gave them to an automotive machine shop to be "pin honed" for better accuracy, they're charging me two bucks a hole, so I can't touch that in time, and with their machine the rings break in straight away, and the cylinders are straight with the bores being round and straight within about a tenth of a thousandth.  I've got 2021 aluminum stock for the pistons, arrived last week, and some bearing bronze stock to turn for lifter bearings, and I've got the cam blank machined out round, and set up on the rotary table, and just got in the woodruff key cutter to be used to cut the cam lumps, or rather leave the lumps high, and cut the valleys, so next step is either shafts for the oil pumps, and oil pump testing, or milling the cam so it has lobes.  I should get the cylinders back next week or so, and start on pistons, as each cylinder will be unique I expect, as far as finished bore.  I don't even want to think about what comes after that, too much thinking.  Jamie has been a willing accolyte for lots of years and has added much to my shop, as he's a sheet metal worker, on C-130's, and has brought sheet metal into my shop, and taught me more than a little bit about that separate subject.  His "study" of radial engine vibrations" was about a fifty page review of Pratt and Whitney's work in bringing a four bank radial engine into a reliable working engine for the bombers and eventually the freight and passenger aircraft.  I learned most of what I know about crank harmonics and the art of crank balancing from his printed copy of Pratt and Whitney's review, and our mutual discussions of the meaning of the details in that analysis.  I suspect you will see Jamie's work on this forum before too long.  He's left the Corps to go to school, and get his credentials as an engineer with lots of background experience.  A close friend and top notch mechanic and metal worker I look forward to seeing what he ends up producing when he's ready to show his paces.  He's got a few tales of his own to tell worth listening to.  I'm happy to have such good friends as he.
   This thread will be alive again and the progress moving forward, haven't gone a day without looking at it and waiting on tooling, material, and of course, getting an old failure running, as I should have long ago. :nrocks: and the folks on it are always ready to  :poke: you when you need one.  Top notch gang to hang out with. mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Artie on August 20, 2010, 08:24:57 PM
Gday mate..updates? Following this one with much interest....... im off now to make chips on my marine twin...... cheers Rob T  :poke: :poke: :poke:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: sbwhart on August 21, 2010, 01:06:06 AM
I'm Quietly watching this Jack

I've always bin fascinated by radial engines.

I really like that that power saw thats one bit of kit I badly need.

Stew
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on August 21, 2010, 09:17:39 AM
Hi Stew, I inherited that when the man who made it passed on, and I named it after him, he must have used it thirty or forty years before I got it fifteen or so ago.  I just ran across a set of plans for a power hacksaw using a pair of connecting rods from an auto engine, to give the vertical movement necessary, and at the same time keep the bar carrying the saw frame aligned, I think its in the tools section of the forum.  "Joe" is a bit loose, and needs to be set right, and watched for the first couple strokes, and some cutting oil added on occasion, but he cuts very efficiently, and rather straight, the cut shown is splitting a one inch piece of pre-heat treated 4140 in half, and the finished results gave me two useable pieces, one for the cams of the radial, the other for when I screw up the cams for the radial.  I've got one of the never ending four by six chinese band saws, and while it's done yeoman's service, being almost twenty five and still cutting, it's giving out signs it may be near the end of its life.  I had to spend about four or five hours fixing the bearings in place in their bores, and getting the shafts fixed, when it was brand new, as they used no snap rings, or set screws and didn't leave any room for the same, but 680 locktite has held it unmoving ever since, and all that I've done for it otherwise, is weld the blade guide plates back on their arms, and make them actually straight instead of slightly angled as they were with only one tack, as original.  I sawed an anvil out of a piece of regulation railroad track once, about eighteen hours of hacksawing, a pack of a dozen cheap blades, done in by the first hour, and one Sandvik blade finishing the job and still sharp at the end of it, but I wouldn't want to ever do that again.  The big deal with a power hacksaw is getting the direction of rotation of the final gear or sprocket right, and getting the link placed right, so it tends to lift the blade on the return stroke, and pull down on it during the cutting stroke.  My hacksaw took forever to cut until I figured out it was running backwards, and lifting on the cut stroke.  Cheers  :nrocks: mad jack
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: AdeV on August 25, 2010, 07:25:48 AM
Jack -

Although I've looked in on this thread occasionally, I must have accidentally missed big chunks of it. I just spent the morning re-reading the whole thing from start to finish - and I have to say just one word:

Wow! Amazing work, just fabulous....

OK, 5 words....

I love the way you can see the parts in the raw stock. I've looked at your oil pump over & over again & I just can't figure out how it works.... but I know it will, and that it'll be absolutely bob-on when it does.

 :nrocks:
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Artie on August 25, 2010, 07:28:46 AM
So, no updates?
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: Brass_Machine on August 25, 2010, 10:17:34 PM
Nice job! Love the frame work. You shoudl start a seperate thread for the custom bike work...

Gotta wipe the drool off the my laptop.

Eric
Title: Re: a nine cylinder radial engine, plans by "ageless engines"
Post by: madjackghengis on August 26, 2010, 09:30:00 AM
Hi all, I know how frustrating when a thread goes quiet, but rest assured it will be moving again shortly.  I have my cylinders being "pin honed", at an automotive machine shop, at two bucks a hole for eleven cylinders, and being able to achieve a finish I can only envy, I chose to use them, rather than work with my own taper and oval holes, so I'm waiting for their return.  I just got the cutter I needed to cut the cam lobes on the cam without having to flip it over to machine the second cam, and have to re-align zero, and work the rotary table and the y axis backwards, for having flipped the cam.  The cutter is a regular woodruff key cutter, which allows me to cut both cams, even though there is only about fifty thousandths of separation between the two, and I'm to use one degree angle changes while moving the y axis to generate the actual cam lobes.  I kept an extra piece of the pre-heat treated 4140 I'm using for the cam blank so I can make the good cam after I screw up the first one.
     With regard to the motorcycle frame, as soon as I get back to that project, which is right after I finish with the engine swap in my lawn mower, and intermingled with the radial engine, I will separate it, and put it in its own log.  I also have a frame I'm building for myself which is far more interesting, because you can do more interesting things when you have no concerns about liability.
    With about seven acres of "lawn" out front, lawnmowers are a high priority for us, and I spend much time and work keeping the several different sorts needed, running and keeping spindle bearings in them.  We live right on a creek, and have to deal with stumps and other such things, including wetlands, and working right up to the edge without falling over and in.  I generally have at least three different types of lawn tractors I'm maintaining at any given time, and one is always either "down", or about to go down, usually for worn and then broken parts if I don't catch it in time.
    I expect the cylinders back home any day now, and will start on pistons for each, once they come home, but will get on with the cam, and finishing up the oil pumps as soon as I can.  (that break taking my old flame sucker that never ran, and getting it running didn't help the time table any, but it sure helped my ego and piece of mind a lot).  With a bit of luck I should have some good pictures to post in the next day or two, and get moving forward.  I can't express my full appreciation for all the interest shown, and the ample encouragement.  More soon :headbang: mad jack