The Craftmans Shop => Backyard Ballistics => Topic started by: ieezitin on June 27, 2010, 07:03:17 PM

Title: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: ieezitin on June 27, 2010, 07:03:17 PM
I got this from another forum, this thread is worth your time reading.

This is one of the most fascinating threads I have seen when it comes to craftsmanship with dual talents in wood and metal.

I donít think you will find your local Wall Mart selling this Bradshaw.

This just reeks of love, care and paying attention to details which I personally admire. Enjoy!.                Anthony.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: ieezitin on June 27, 2010, 07:54:09 PM
The link i posted may not work so try this.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Bernd on June 27, 2010, 08:47:29 PM
WOW   :jaw:

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: dsquire on June 28, 2010, 02:05:09 AM

That is craftsmanship PLUS. I don't believe that I heard a price mentioned on what he got for making that piece but it wouldn't be cheap. Now I want to see someone make the steel for their next engine that way. Thanks for posting the link. :) :)

Cheers  :beer:


Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Bernd on June 28, 2010, 01:58:08 PM
Now I want to see someone make the steel for their next engine that way.

Cheers  :beer:



Well, we're waiting Don.  :poke:  :poke:  :poke:

 :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on June 30, 2010, 06:05:57 PM
Nice work on the whole certainly the Damascus forging with but he could learn a lot in the UK after 5-10 years training. Nice gap under the barrels. Cringe at some of the things.
Trying hard not to sound dismissive but thats pretty much machine made, craftmanship comes from making by hand and theres only a few in the world that can to more elaborate intricate designs and shaping.

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: ieezitin on July 02, 2010, 11:02:03 AM

I did not read your comment in a derogatory way, I understand it.

I too really appreciate art made by hand by a craftsman in any field.

But I still say this guy is an artisan. It takes skill to envision your job in its shape and angles in ones mind, then by using the machines to sculpt wood and metal into a functioning product, machining undoubtedly is an art.

Eons ago where the black smith would forge the steel then deliver it to the gun maker and he would fettle and file away a lump of metal is 500 years gone, one of the lathes most important contributions to society today was it was a perfect tool for gun making, my point here is the gun maker picked up machining pretty quick to make beautiful weapons.

If you have any links on English hand made gun making please post, other than machining gun making is a passion of mine.

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on July 05, 2010, 06:58:11 PM
Very happy you took it that way.
Cheaper and mid range guns agree CNC or wire cut etc but quality guns a big no.
People are still paying same price for machine made as hand made, this first came to light from your side of the pond and totally agree. Sales dropped why pay £98k for a certain gun that was made with the same machines that Beretta use.
No specialists as in lock, stock and barrel engineers are employed who moan about removing 4 thou. A clean and polish up from a second cut file will remove 3 to 4 thou.
So the art in gunmaking is sitting behind a computer screen, but they cant get that right.

There are a few who can make by hand less than 5, to my knowledge dont think computer literate. Even if they was, i very much doubt they would pass on time served ways of doing things to teach others. Most of these specialists started up on their own decades ago in a close knit society.

Personally i just admire the complexity of most side by side side locks, working down to microns finished or it wont work. Best period around 1930 to 1960 ish.

See what we can drag up.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on July 05, 2010, 07:15:39 PM
I was allowed to take these 8 or 9 years ago, but nothing more for giving the game away.
Its spring making only showing initial first stages.
Look at the difference in lock quality, these were hand made at the time.
Just noticed spring clamps above hammer.
Yes people still file things by hand school leavers, far better job.

I can tell you how most stuff is made but no piccies.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on July 15, 2010, 08:03:42 AM
We used to do 1 of these a month for a quality gunmaker in Scotland.
The parts were all cnc, wire cut etc but still had to be drilled, tapped, fitted down, relieved, shaped, hardened and polished up for an in the white supply. Made main springs as normal, these are easy for me but usually do the V springs as they look better and are stronger than wire cut.
Theres only so far you can go with cnc wire cut etc and only as good as the gunmaker behind the keyboard.
Material has to be left on in most areas to fit but certain things like the trigger blades came just as a shape. It would have been far easier to file in the trigger shape after fitting in to the slots, since you cant hold it. Then to top that after fitting what came file the blade shaping by feel, was on hands and knees.
Worst bits are the trigger guards, came just as a flat shape. Thread first then fit, no gaps wedged in and screwed down, then file internally and externally- Iy just flexes and vibrates no where to brace or hold. Better with a casting.
Mind you didnt care for the safe arrangement.
Shapings the thing and had to make it look like it wasnt machine made.

Thats a weeks work dont look much. Just used to look upon it as a job to do.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Bernd on July 15, 2010, 09:46:00 AM
Nice job Jonny.  :thumbup:

Looks complicated.

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: ieezitin on July 15, 2010, 09:58:07 AM

Nice piece of hand work, I can see a weeks work there. I just finished a hand rail job for someone and where I welded the joints together I had to grind and hand file back the profile of the top hand rail, a weld joint was taking me an hour each. Saying that I did not go  to the finish standards there on that gun trigger action.   ::)

Any chance of the makers name in Scotland and any pics of his works?  :headbang:

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on July 17, 2010, 08:16:59 PM
Spotted a blemish right away bottom 7BA screw slot in bridle isnt horizontal.

Trigger plate is based on the Dickson round action, most notable difference is the safety arrangement. Think above piccy was the last one i did for the company based in Glasgow.

What used to nark me with those is the trigger and sear pivot. Both bridles drilled through and tapered from the inside. Both sears are also tapered from inside. Pin made up with tapered barrel through centre so it locks in from one direction. This also has to have tapers locking in to both bridles when tightened up and of course no play with sears or triggers. Just one area wasnt keen on but had to be done.
Used to have to psych meself up to file the trigger shaping and then blend into trigger plate. Only stabbed myself 7 times out 26 i done, its sharp on the end.
Never put initials on anything ever done, at best if a hand made lock there would be the companies name stamped on it usually just in front of the tumbler even for the London based companies that said they made their own.

It does save a lot of time having them bulk cnc, wire eroded, spark eroded etc Above was taken to the limit of what they could achieve and still cost them more than £900 in parts before our work. Reason it is so expensive is because the development costs in programming and repeated reprogramming to get it something like have to be recouped. Otherwise it would save around £700 on above parts, knock on effect end user would save £2000+ just on that assembly alone.

No problems making any part of above by hand.
In general locks are easier but most had decent hammer forged springs made the original ways, sadly theres no one left in the world currently working, to my knowledge and only three people still alive that know how.
Believe me we had a few mr perfects.

Used to love the hammer gun mainsprings, really beefy and long. Most hated making two pairs of locks with frizzen pans etc from solid and of course those parts you cant hold in a vice.
I did have the honour of doing specialist work for the best gunmakers in the business as they only employed barrel makers and engineers.

Fairly sure these are the only pictures i took in 11 years, but we used to have an author Tony Murray (cake man, funny story) pay us a visit twice a year for years, he took a lot of piccies.

Last job ever done was a Westley Richards boxlock mainspring, the type with the inbuilt ejector timing. Ps made in India on new guns hardened and pulled up in UK!

Just admire the old stuff for the work of art it is and how it was made with bare hands.
Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: ieezitin on July 19, 2010, 07:40:21 PM

Seems to me you have sufficient knowledge in the trigger department on manufacture, (imho the hardest)  making receivers would be the easy part. Making barrels is just a broaching machining action, if a shot gun smooth bore barrels cant be that hard either  ever thought about making your own firearm for commercial sale?.

Saying that forging barrels and receiver blocks out of Damascus is no easy task, but I know as well as you the money is out there for hand crafted guns.

Title: Re: Craftsmanship is alive.
Post by: Jonny on August 12, 2010, 04:53:24 PM
No time Anthony, to produce a hand made s/s could take years, i just admire for the workmanship that goes in to them.
Just a specialist in specific areas such as quality lock making, ejector work and all types of springs by the traditional method, sadly only three of us still alive that know how.

Recently done a Purdey wall hanger in US just because he wanted it working, no parts in the forend, no scarf pins, no side clips, screws, no ejector springs or kickers and no centre rod, that cost him.
To my knowledge i can only recall 6 who can and still make by hand upon request.
Theres certain things no amount of machining or programming can do any good, one is wire cut springs they are weak and do not look right, would be ok on a spanish, well too good.