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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: raynerd on January 18, 2011, 05:34:41 PM

Title: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 18, 2011, 05:34:41 PM
I think it is about time I start a new build log for my Webster engine. This is the first IC engine I`ve built and I think after many weeks reading and thinking, I just about get the basic concept of how the engine runs  :scratch:!  I have been looking to build an IC engine for a while. A friend and fellow model engineer is currently building "The Project" G1 steam engine and although I was extremely tempted to follow him in a build, I thought I`d stick to my original plans of building an IC engine. I expect "The Project" will be next....

So deciding on the Webster as a simple build (I use the word simple loosely) I started to get materials collected. I snagged a lot of aluminium plate from the scrap heap several months ago and finally I`ve been lucky in the fact that I`ve got pretty much all the sizes I`ll need.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster1.jpg)

Unfortunately I did not have the cast iron or leaded steel for the cylinder so I purchased that a few weeks ago and insisted that my wife and daughter come with me on a on a "Christmas" trip to Buxton, coincidental of course that Macclesfield was the first stop with MaccModels open and with a piece of cast iron cut, waiting for me, almost likes I`d pre-arranged!!  :ddb:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster2.jpg)


I`m also changing from the plans and will be using 8mm silver steel for the crank rather than the imperial .313" that is stated. I`m also going to run the crank in bearings rather than brass bushes as stated and these arrived last week:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster2a.jpg)

I  also ordered a small NPK spark plug that cost £3 on ebay but I`ll need a M10 x 1.0 tap which is annoying, my M10 taps are all M10 x1.25mm.

I then had to think about the carb. The thought of purchasing a RC IC engine pre-built carb seems like cheating when it plays such a pivitol part of the engine runnings but maybe I`m wrong in those thoughts!! I haven`t read about too much success with the carb design with the Webster but I believe that the carb from drawings published in ME for the Nemett 15S works very well so I think I`ll run with that.

Then it comes to the gears!! I`m going to try and cut the gears. Thankfully in my efforts in my continuing clock build I`ve attempted several gears so I`m quite comfortable about giving these a crack. Involute spur gear cutters are MUCH cheaper, at about £20 a cutter than Cycloidal clock wheel (gear) cutters which sell for about £60-80 a cutter! Despite this fact, I`m going to try and make my own cutter again using the methods and calculations provided by John Stevenson on the web. I`ve done all the calculations, they are here:
http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=970

Well after all that thinking  :med: :coffee: :scratch:... time for some chips  :dremel:.

It always takes me bloody ages to just cut the pieces, infact it took me a few nights just to rough out a few pieces from the big sheets of aluminium. Here are the two side supports, the one blued up is to size, the back longer support is just roughed out.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster3.jpg)

I`m in a bit of a pickle with regards to the base. I`ve nothing really suitable and can`t afford a piece of ally big enough just for the base of this. I think this piece will do, but it is a little bit thin, then again my plan is to raise the base on pillars so the electrics can go under it.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster4.jpg)

I`ve also been preparing for cutting the cylinder bore which I`m going to do between centres. Lots of good advice was given here:

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4093.0

and in preparation I made this bore setting device:
http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=992

And with so much success, I had to fall over some where!

looking good so far:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster5.jpg)

yea... then I thought I could just not show it hence the angle of the photo...but look at the fins  :(

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster6.jpg)

but hey ho! I`m going to go and bore it and hopefully it`ll still run, just the gap between the fins is wrong. Two stupid errors, I misread the plans and then to compound the issue, the work managed to move from the 3 jaw during grooving!!

Here is the cylinder with the roughed out cylinder support piece:
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster7.jpg)


...and that is pretty much where I am up to right now. Next job is to mount the cylinder again for boring between centres.

Chris

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on January 18, 2011, 09:40:02 PM
Hi Chris, this is an interesting build to start on, it looks like you've got a pile of loot and getting ready to start turning some of it into parts.  If that piece for the base is a bit flimsy you can always beef it up from the back side with some hardwood bracing or plywood.  I've had a couple of Brit cars that had wooden frames, back in my younger days.  I'm looking forward to seeing how you set up the valve train and all.  Nice start you've done.  :ddb: mad jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Gerhard Olivier on January 19, 2011, 03:29:26 AM
Nice start chriss

Hard to imagine and engine when you see a pile of bits!!! :ddb: :ddb:

 Gerhard
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 19, 2011, 07:09:07 AM
Nice 1 Chris, the fins won't matter a jot! That base looks thick enough to me, how thick is it? Some engines you see are vastly over engineered for the scale if you think about it. Can't wait to see more!  :thumbup:

Nick

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 19, 2011, 07:28:49 AM
Fins? They're only a bit different to drawing!  What's wrong with a bit of character?  :thumbup:

You`re off and running Chris!  :clap:

David D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Ray on January 19, 2011, 08:10:25 AM
Chris, how ever you change or modify your Webster makes it unique.   Makes your engine have the character and style you want.

Ray
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Jasonb on January 19, 2011, 12:49:56 PM
Good to see you making a start on this one, be interesting to see how you go with the cylinder. Looks like Maccs have had that bit of iron for a while judging by the pitted surface or they flogged you an old sash weight ::)

Jason
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 19, 2011, 02:30:03 PM
I thought it looked a bit pitted but it's turned up fine. Buying the proper metal for the job on my last couple of engines has made things much easier I must admit, rather than routing around in the scrap box and not knowing what you're about to machine!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 19, 2011, 06:38:03 PM
Hi guys, thanks for the replies.  Yes the cast is a pitted and had a hard surface but once that was off, cut at low spead it cut well. Regarding the base, it is about 7mm and the plans call for 9.5mm or there abouts. I`m not too worried for strength, it is more for the depth of counter sinking my cap head screws. I think I`m fairly sure I`m going to lift it a bit so for now I`ll have to pop it on some little feet to give it a bit of lift. I just can`t justify the cost of such a big plate of ally for this project when I`m sure I can make do with the plate I have.

I only had an hour tonight but I managed to make my boring bar from a 0.625" silver steel bar and small piece of HSS. I also found the wood I needed to mount the cylinder (I lied, I didn`t find it, I purchased 8 foot for only 12"  - meh, it`ll come in hand!!)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/websterc2.jpg)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/websterc1.jpg)

Not much, but maybe time to bore the cylinder tomorrow!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on January 20, 2011, 02:52:14 AM
Good start Chris

Looks like you've done a fair bit of planning and preperation work on this job which is a wise move.  :thumbup:

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on January 20, 2011, 03:17:40 AM
I've never tried this - but won't there be too much 'give' in that wood? I woodn't have thought it rigid enough, in particular it looks like pine or spruce which isn't a particularly dense material. Would a small 'sub table' mounted on jacks not be better?

I made a set of boring bars - with micrometer adjusters ages ago (from Hemingways plans) but never used them. Mounting the work has always put me off, plus my lathe is set to turn parallel (whereas I'm always tweaking the tailstock, so that would need setting prior to the job) and never had anything needing boring that was so long as to be out of reach of my longest boring bar.
(I did pick up a vertical slide with the idea I'd use that to mount the work.)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 20, 2011, 04:58:05 AM
Boring bar looks good Chris, just a quick point that I fell foul of when turning a recess on my flywheels, is the radius on the bottom of your tool less than the radius of the bore, otherwise it will foul. You sure that is silver steel? Doesn't look like it but don't think it'd matter.

If you can't counterbore enough, just counter bore the wooden base instead? I didn't counterbore my alloy base for my ridders flame licker, just put cut outs in the wood, was much easier!

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 20, 2011, 05:32:15 AM
Cheers Chaps.

Kwackers - I did think about this but JasonB who clearly has had success with this method only looked to use soft wood here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4093.15
Before I start tonight I must remember to put the pieces of card inbetween the blocks so it was good that you raised the point as it made me go back to that post!!   I didn`t have a long enough boring bar for the job BUT as Stew mentioned in an earlier message in the thread I linked to above, I could have easily made one. To be honest, I`ve never done this and in my mind it seems a nice way of getting a clean bore. I`ll take light cuts as not to put too much strain on the work and holding fixture. I`ll see how it goes but I do appreciate and understand your thoughts.


NickG - good advice. The tool is HSS as it was hard to grind but yes, I did insert the tool into the boring bar and then realised the starting bore is smaller than the back of the tool fouling so I had to grind it much shorter.

I`ll give it a bash later tonight, hopefully it`ll work!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on January 20, 2011, 05:57:19 AM
Going back to the first parts of your build, about the finning.

When working from plans, people follow them religiously and sometimes have trouble replicating them exactly. When the chappie first came up with the drawings, he worked with what he had, if you don't have the same materials and tooling, it can be a little difficult to follow the build exactly.

There is a secret to it all.

If you can keep the major dimensions correct and in the right positions, then everything else can be swapped about or cut out to whatever takes your desire. That is why some of us can make an engine look totally different from the original, but still have it work exactly the same way. Things like bore and piston materials and their sizes should be the same, as should crank positions and throws and everything else that is critical to the running, but everything else is pure bling target fodder. In fact, you could most probably easily take the critical dimensions and turn it into a vertical engine, or even on it's side, nothing is written in stone.

So don't worry too much if it doesn't look exactly the same as the original, we are all allowed some 'artistic licence'.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 20, 2011, 07:44:30 AM
Sorry, Chris I wasn't clear - I just meant was the bar itself Silver Steel? Usually it has a ground finish and doesn't seem to rust that's all. Don't think it'll matter though.

Sure it'll work great, as John said I always try to make things to suit what I have. Poppin is the only exception which I bought material for as I wanted to build as close to plans as possible but even still there are a couple of odd tweaks on that.

Looking forward to your next boring post  :lol:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 20, 2011, 08:20:19 AM
Cheers for the post John...I do know what you mean.

Nick - AHHHH !! I presumed it was silver steel as it was 13" long dead on and was stamped at one end. Your probably right - it may not be then. Although I have purchased some silver steel from a engineering shop about 2 years ago and that rusted :S  Like you said, I choose it because of its size, so hopefully it shouldn`t matter - sorry for not understanding  :bang:

Yes, I`ll be sure to make a boring post tonight.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on January 20, 2011, 11:56:56 AM
OK, I see how it's meant to work. I'll take your word for it that the wood is stiff enough...

I was going to say "make sure your tailstock is bob on" but I've suddenly realised it makes no difference whether the tail stock is centred or not!
Might give it a go next time I do a cylinder.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 20, 2011, 03:12:24 PM
Kwackers, you weren't the only one, I thought the same about tailstock then realised it doesn't make any difference!  :doh:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 20, 2011, 07:08:41 PM
Well there will be no boring post until weekend as I woke my daughter up cutting the wood, got a rollocking of the wife and was made  :whip: :whip: to stop. So, as a consolation have made this boring post instead.  :lol:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 20, 2011, 08:46:42 PM
 :bugeye: shame on you  :poke:

I did the same, well my son woke up as I came upstairs but I escaped the blame some how!  :lol: I'll get it in the neck now though being up this late, am knackered - waiting for something to upload!  :palm:

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on January 21, 2011, 05:11:26 AM
I made a vernier adjustment for the cutters on my boring bars, but one thing about the tailstock not needing to be centred is that (assuming the cutter is aprox in the middle of the bar) then for every thou you move the tailstock off centre you'll increase the diameter of the bore by about a thou. So could be a good way to fine tune the bore size.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 21, 2011, 05:25:15 AM
That's a good idea and that angle shouldn't make any difference to the cutter angles.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 24, 2011, 05:42:48 PM
Here is a little update, only had a few hours on this over weekend but just enough time to turn the bore and I`m absolutely chuffed to bits. It worked a dream and there is no sign of a taper. I have even turned up a little  go-no/go bar and it works perfectly on both ends and of course measuring shows the same. I have to admit that it took a bit of getting use to and confidence/trust in measuring it but I couldn`t have done it without my measuring tool - cheers Rob for the info on this. I actually spent a good 20 minutes taking cuts to a purposely small diameter and then removing the boring bar to make measurements just to check all was going well and practicing before I took the final cuts to size without removing the boring bar and trusting in my measuring tool that I made and posted about in the first post. I have to admit, I was concentrating so hard that I have mocked up for the picture below, the bore was actually cut!!

Here is the wooden block:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/betweenc1.jpg)

I actually used this cutter for the wood, the other was too fine a point and was ripping the wood rather than cutting it. Cutting the bore was also good practice!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/betweenc2.jpg)

So here is the mock up - as you can see my bar was 0.625" so only needed a small projection of the cutter. It was nice and sharp and the cast just powdered off.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/betweenc3.jpg)

Bore all nicely cut and final cylinder ready!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/betweenc4.jpg)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/betweenc5.jpg)

Well this method took a lot of effort and many hours of extra work in making the necessary tools but I`m really pleased with how it turned out and certainly another method under my belt for future. Good finish as well! Bore is bang on 0.875 perhaps touching 0.876" - certainly good enough for me and I hope good enough to run!

Thanks to everyone who suggested methods of cutting the bore and gave me advice in any way.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on January 24, 2011, 05:50:21 PM
Nice going Chris  :thumbup: :clap: :clap: :clap:

the bore looks great  :thumbup:  and you now have a boring bar , setting tool and boring table all ready for next time  :med:  :)


Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: ieezitin on January 24, 2011, 07:02:28 PM
Chris.

Nice job. This will give a few new people a few ideas on how to solve a problem. This is the beauty of our machining hobby so many ways to skin a cat and all have pluses and minuses, a job well done now scrub your lathe clean son get rid of all that organic matter.


All the best   Anthony.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on January 25, 2011, 01:44:07 AM
Well done that man  :thumbup:  :clap:

Looks like all your preparation work paid off, thats the way to go :headbang: now you've got another technique in your armory.

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 25, 2011, 03:25:28 AM
Yeah nice work chris, that's all worked out spot on and sure you'll use the bits many times again - look up on those as workshop tooling not part of the engine project.

Nick :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on January 25, 2011, 03:34:58 AM
 :clap: :clap: VERY nicely thought through, and put into practice Chris!  :clap: :clap:

Blummin well done!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 25, 2011, 10:00:11 AM
Thanks for the comments guys.

Have any of you any advice when it comes down to piston rings. I have lapped the bore and in an earlier post I mode, I was kindly well informed that I should hone the bore if using cast piston rings and lap the bore if I was intending to use an o-rings. I intend to use vitron o-rings because I believe they will be a little more forgiving and easier to purchase - that said I`m not exactly sure where to buy one from!

I am also a little confused when it comes to dimensions...my bore is 7/8" = 0.875"

Brian Rupnow has posted some interesting info in his build log in which he explains he went for a 1/16" cross section (Which is apparently actually 0.070") and then posted these details followed by the image at the link below: The groove depth should be .055" to .057" and the groove width should be 0.095". 

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn294/BrianRupnow/o-ring001.jpg


I`m not clear at all about how is based his decision on which ring to purchase... could anyone help me out here either with reference to understanding the dimensions or finding a reliable supplier?

Regards
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 25, 2011, 11:48:22 AM
Chris, there is a lot of debate over this subject! I think there might be some info in the tiny i.c threads too. I'd be tempted to go for a lapped bore and cast iron piston with not much clearnace. I know Jan Ridders does that on his engines.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: shoey51 on January 25, 2011, 02:55:38 PM
a lovely solution to the problem there Chris  :thumbup: :clap:

cheers Graham
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on January 25, 2011, 04:21:39 PM
I would suggest you stick to the plans, and you will find that the the figures are almost the same as that person is showing.

Blackgates stock Viton o-rings, but I don't know if they do imperial. You will require, for a 7/8" (0.875" bore), a 3/4" (0.750") bore o-ring with a 1/16" (0.0625") cross section. The depth of the grooves in the piston give the correct wall pressure, so stick to what is shown on the plans, and if too much friction, you can always skim another couple of thou out.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 25, 2011, 04:50:32 PM
John

Thanks for the advice. Just curious, what is your opinion on going with a CI piston, close fitting with no rings as Nick suggested. I did consider this but guessed there must be something wrong with the idea but looking at Jan Ridders plans for his simple IC engine, like Nick said, he uses this method. Or do you think O-rings best option?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: crankshafter on January 25, 2011, 05:08:38 PM
Chris.
Do it the way Bogs say. Alu. piston and viton O-ring. Regarding the piston. stick to the plans and you will be rewarded :head I used the Alu/O-ring on my Webster and it have been running for X numbers of hours and still  have the same good compresson.
Keep up the good work :beer:

Best Regards
CS
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 25, 2011, 05:14:52 PM
OK - thanks for that confirmation crankshafter. I will certainly go down that route. Thanks for the reply, always good to hear from people who have made the engine!!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on January 25, 2011, 10:43:39 PM
As I have said many times before in different places, if it is a proven design, stick with it, do cosmetic changes if you want to, but leave the basic figures as they are.

Cast iron rings can be an art unto themselves, and to start learning new ideas and techniques half way thru a build is not something that you should be doing. Leave it to the end when you can concentrate on it a little more.

Once you have it running, THEN you can play around with a new piston and rings etc. Knowing that you can easily swap back if things don't work out.


John




Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on January 26, 2011, 06:34:36 AM
True, many websters have been built and run. The guy mentioned has just finished another build log which I found quite infuriating - he didn't seem to listen to advice, even from people with vast experience of this, then he'd stumble across a solution in a later post and claim he'd solved the problem himself, whereas if he'd listened, he wouldn't have got into the predicament in the first place - anyway, rant over!

Out of interest though, how much clearance does it allow for an aluminium piston in cast iron cylinder? It must be right or they wouldn't run properly. When I tried that in my flame gulper it locked solid after a couple of mins - that is why you need rings with that method and presumably a hefty clearance built in. With iron and iron the expansion rate is the same, so you can go with a minimal clerance - that will also reduce friction compared to something with rings - more useful in hit & miss type applications where you want it to coast freely, shouldn't be a problem with yours.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 31, 2011, 05:32:52 PM
I have managed to get a little more done on the frames / supports for the Webster Engine. The first one to attempt was the cylinder support. I bored the blind 1" cylinder neck support in the 4 jaw on the lathe. I`m becoming increasingly fond of m  4-jaw, it use to scare me but now it is becoming a good friend! Sadly the material I was hoping to use for the cylinder support was not wide enough and the only thing I had wide enough was not long enough. As I didn`t want to purchase more materials, I have used what I have and added a brass rising block to increase the length.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webby.jpg)

Then for the long support whittled from this piece of ally:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webby1.jpg)

All the parts resting on each other with a little block under the cylinder to stop everything falling over!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webby2.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webby3.jpg)

Parts so far:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webby4.jpg)

I just need to decide on the base material now so I can start to bolt things down but I`m not 100% happy it is thick enough. I might just have to bite the bullet and and purchase something a little thicker - but that is going to cost :(






Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: DeereGuy on January 31, 2011, 06:19:31 PM
Chris,
Looking like you have a good start!  Mine is still sitting in a box with lots of parts....one day I may get my focus back on it and actually finish it.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on January 31, 2011, 06:44:30 PM
Hi Bob, I was hoping this may inspire you to continue! I read all your build log posts before beginning mine and they helped a lot!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: DeereGuy on January 31, 2011, 07:09:10 PM
Chris,
Sitting here with a smile knowing those posts helped someone.  Thank you!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 01, 2011, 04:51:05 AM
Good work Chris, I reckon your base will be thick enough but even if not, a chunk of alloy won't be too much - don't think it was much for my flame licker.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 01, 2011, 01:43:28 PM
I`m looking for more help with sourcing an vitron o-ring if possible.

John has kindly informed me of the dimensions needed, being 3/4" (0.75") bore o-ring with a 1/16" cross section. I contacted Reeves as suggested however they informed me today via email that the o rings they supply would not be suitable for pistons and are used for waterpumps etc I would need a vitron o-ring!

Any more suggestions of suppliers of an imperial vitrol o-ring?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 01, 2011, 05:14:50 PM
http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/sections/bruce-engineering/materials.asp (http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/sections/bruce-engineering/materials.asp)

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 03:43:09 AM
Cheers Nick, I`ve emailed them so hopefully I`ll get sorted.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 04:07:48 AM
OK, well this is from the pollymodel website:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oringss.jpg)

Would any of these be any good, I get the option of the ID/bore being 3/4 but with either a 1" or 15/16 OD and also the cross section changes as well.

I don`t understand that, how can you have a 3/4" ID yet a 1" OD, does that mean the piston ring is 1/4" thick?? In which case neither of these 3/4" o-rings will fit my 7/8" bore  :scratch: :scratch:


Chris


 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 02, 2011, 04:18:17 AM
Nice 1. I'd still be tempted to make the piston from cast iron with no rings. Infact for my first i.c. I'm definitely going to try a graphite piston before anything else. It seems to cope well with the heat on the flame gulper, the only question is whether it will cope with the extra force on it by the internal combustion. Over on HMEM a guy has used it in a 7/8" bore i.c though so pretty confident. The advantages would be great - low friction, good seal, no lubricant, no rings, easy to machine, light weight, no need to lap!

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=12591.0 (http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=12591.0)

Nick

ps no, it'd be 1/8" or 3/32" cross - section Chris!!  :poke:

You need the 11/16" x 7/8" and make the groove deeper / wider.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 04:28:27 AM
 :palm: Nick, I still don`t get it! How can the inside diameter be 3/4" and the outside be 1" - that leaves a 1/4" which is the thickness of the ring or is cross section not the ring diameter!?!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 04:33:16 AM
Blackgates have just replied - but it looks like the same range:

www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/orings-blackgates.xls

I`m totally confused  :coffee: :scratch: :coffee: :scratch:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on February 02, 2011, 04:40:15 AM
A 3/4" ID ring having a 1/8" cross section.

So double the cross section (one on either side of the ID bore as it sits in it's groove), and that will give you 1" OD.

See C-o-C

I hope this explains things OK

Bogs

BTW, I told you what you need here

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4232.msg46696#msg46696
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 04:48:23 AM
Oh Dear, what an idiot I am  :palm:  Brilliant, that makes perfect sense with the C-o-C, thank you !!

Ahh this makes sense also what you recommended in a 3/4" bore and 1/16" cross section...

1/16 + 3/4 + 1/16  = 7/8" !! 
      O-------O 

OK - I was definately slow on the uptake of this one!

So as Nick suggested, my closest is going to be the 11/16" inside diameter with 3/32" cross section to give me the  7/8" OD I need?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on February 02, 2011, 07:01:01 AM
Sometimes you can't see the trees because of the forest getting in the way.

Everyone gets mental blockages, just that mine now seems permanent.

So what you should do now is to make your ring groove in the piston a couple of thou shallower than the cross section of the ring, that will give you the deformation pressure to ensure the OD of the o-ring seals against the cylinder wall. Eventually it will wear a flat on the outer face and act just like a normal piston ring. When you start to lose compression, pop a new o-ring in, and start from scratch again.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 02, 2011, 11:24:02 AM
 :doh:  :bang:  :smart: :lol: Glad it's not just me then!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on February 02, 2011, 11:51:39 AM
Chris, there is a lot of debate over this subject! I think there might be some info in the tiny i.c threads too. I'd be tempted to go for a lapped bore and cast iron piston with not much clearnace. I know Jan Ridders does that on his engines.


Hi Chris, as a matter of fact, boring on a table with the bar between centers is far and away the most accurate way to bore, and misalignment of the bar only affects the roundness of the bore, and does so absolutely equally the full length, and takes lots of misalignment to make a noticable difference.  That said, having made a very straight and accurate bore, the idea of lapping and using a very close fitting cast iron piston would seem to be a more accurate way to get where you want to be.  The reason for the odd sizes on the grooves for a viton o ring, is to allow compression of the o-ring, while giving plenty of room for it to expand laterally, so the rubber is not compressed, but merely displaced, and causing much less friction.  An iron piston in an iron bore expands at the exact same rate for both, and keeps what ever clearance you have consistent, regardless of the temperature, and the graphite nodules in the cast iron make it self lubricating to a very large degree, allowing for very close clearances. :beer: cheers, mad jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 02, 2011, 06:26:22 PM
Hi Jack, thanks for your input regarding the piston seals. I`m not happy with the base material and so until I can save up a little cash for an all base (I`ve spent far too much this month to buy ANYTHING), I`ll just keep some bits on hold. Consequently I`ve made a start on the gears. I`ve made the buttons and holder this evening and I`ll take the buttons to work and harden them. Then hopefully in the next few days I`ll cut the cutter and then by weekend should aim at having a start on the first gear. I hope my calculations are correct, I`ve used mainly John Stevensons gear article, I think I`m in control....

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/img_0506.jpg)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 03, 2011, 03:55:50 AM
Chris, nice work on the cutter cutter. Can't remember, have you done gears like this before, or did you use the single point tool for all of them?

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 03, 2011, 07:33:32 AM
Yes Nick, I attempted to cut the gears for my ongoing clock project but I have never used a button tool like this to cut the gears. I used a similar form tool but out of HSS to profile the cutter, moving it from one side and then the other. Stew and I had a good crack at it and he managed it with me last year but to be honest, I`ve struggled accurately moving the profiling tool to the other side to get the correct measurement and a symetrical shape. I must admit, I like this idea of a button tool as that is all set out for you, the profile will be correct providing it cuts OK. I also made a multitooth cutter with Stew. Again this worked well but the concern is that if just one of the cutters is a little out, it`ll effect your cut. I think with this only cutting ally, I`m going to use a single point cutter.

Here is the session that I had with Stew cutting gears!!: http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=607

I`m just about to go and use the furnace up in DT in a few minutes during my lunch hour and harden the cutter tips.

Hopefully I`ll have a go cutting the cutting tool tonight.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on February 03, 2011, 11:31:40 AM
Hi Jack, thanks for your input regarding the piston seals. I`m not happy with the base material and so until I can save up a little cash for an all base (I`ve spent far too much this month to buy ANYTHING), I`ll just keep some bits on hold. Consequently I`ve made a start on the gears. I`ve made the buttons and holder this evening and I`ll take the buttons to work and harden them. Then hopefully in the next few days I`ll cut the cutter and then by weekend should aim at having a start on the first gear. I hope my calculations are correct, I`ve used mainly John Stevensons gear article, I think I`m in control....

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/img_0506.jpg)
Hi Chris, I just wanted to remind you, nothing depends on the base, not really, so you can use what you've got at least temporarily, and just leave the base to last, and if what you use in the interim works out, you may find yourself keeping it.  These are OUR engines and we can make them look or do what ever we want, no one can tell us what's good or bad, they can go build their own if they don't like it.  That's how I tend to look at this, since it is my hobby, and not theirs.  Take your time to enjoy the build and take pleasure in finding new ways to do things which people tell you can't be done that way, but spend your time in the shop pleasurably, making the finished product what you want it to be. :beer:  cheers :poke: mad jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 05, 2011, 07:18:24 PM
Yep, cheers for the encouragement MadJack I need it after the last two days attempts. I`m pulling my hair out here!!
I heat treated the button cutters and all looked well. I hacked off a large piece of silver steel for the cutter itself and mounted on the arbour stew made for me last time I did some gear cutting. Here is the intended blank of silver steel to made into the cutter:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/grr1.jpg)


I then parted off the 0.125" wide cutter I needed after centre drilling for fitting onto the arbour. Yes, you hear correctly - I parted!! - look at the new tool! Although delighted with it, more comments will come later in the week, I`m just too stressed with this problem at the moment but cheers AdeV and John, it is through your recommendation  :beer: :thumbup:!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/grr2.jpg)

Now I often hear people say, "a mill is just a lathe on its side" - obviously in a loose sense. Since I have a DRO on my mill I didn`t and still don`t see why I couldn`t place the cutter form tool in my vice and hold the blank in the er32 collect chuck. That way I can use the DRO on my vice to feed the profiling tool 0.092" into the cutter blank as required. All looked to be going well, the cutter tool the edge of the silver steel blank:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/grr3.jpg)

Then it seemed to stop cutting, yet it was still moving into the profiling tool. I had to stop and see what was wrong and then I found that the silver steel cutter blank was cutting the buttons!!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/grr4.jpg)

Fine - I made a wrong call and clearly the buttons were not silver steel as I presumed they were (they had gone hard, a file slid off them). So today I managed to get some 0.275" silver steel which is as near to damn it the 0.274" button dia I need. I heated them cherry red and quenched. They were real hard, a file slid right off them. So now I`ve come up stomping from the workshop - the exact same thing has happened again!!  :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang: :doh: :bang:

What the heck could I be doing wrong. I`m convinced the silver steel is hard, you can`t file it! Yet the cutter blank seems to be cutting/wearing them flat. Exact same problem again. The picture above was my first attempt, but the exact same has happened this evening.

I`ve been sat here thinking and the only thing I could think would be that I was running the blank at too high a speed? I stupidly didn`t consider it but I don`t even know if this was the problem. Does anyone have any further comments or advice before I attempt it for the third time. I didn`t foresee this as a problematic part to the gear making!

....just another headache before bed...  :bang:

Chris

 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: marfaguy on February 05, 2011, 11:45:39 PM
Hello all,
I'll properly introduce my self in the intro section later. I've been watching this thread with great interest and just wanted to throw my .02 cents in.
Feel free to shoot me down if I've really got this wrong.

So just to make sure I understand, the horizontal spinning disc is supposed to
be profiled with what is essentially a double cove cut from both the top and bottom.
The two vertical discs are what is supposed to cut the coves. Hence they should not
have corners cut into them as they are the cutters and not the cuttees, so to speak.
I'm going to assume I've got that right but please let me know if I'm off base.
 
Looking at the (madjack's reply #57) picture it looks like there's about a 10 degree angle ground into the bar holding the cutter buttons.
Let's call it rake D. So as the horizontal spinning disc is presented and fed into the stationary cutter buttons, the back rake is D degrees
falling away from the front cutting edge. Is it possible that the rake is too much? In other words maybe there isn't enough support behind the cutting edge.
Another possibility is that the cutting buttons need a bit of annealing to toughen them up after hardening. Perhaps the cutting edge is too hard and it's
shattering against the toughness of the spinning disc. Possibly a combination of less rake so there's more support behind the cutting edge and a
bit of annealing after harding the cutters to toughen them up.

What did the swarf look/feel like? If the cutting edge was minutely shattering then rolling into the cut and abrading the cutters then I would
think the the swarf would be very fine.

The last picture in Craynerd's reply# 57, it looks like the bottom button cutter shifted counterclockwise.
Maybe an optical illusion in the picture but maybe not. Did something shift?

-Charles
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on February 06, 2011, 03:25:50 AM
Chris

You could be running the disc too fast try slowing it down, also try a little drop of tapping fluid on it you know the brown stuff that comes in a squeezey bottle.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: crankshafter on February 06, 2011, 03:57:25 AM
Hi Chris.
Had to jump in on this one, as I'm on the go to try to make my own  gearcutters.

One thing Chris, do you try to cut the same blank in the second attempt, if so the blank could have been workhardened  from the first try. If so you have to aneel the blank, heat red and let it cool slooow.
AAAAAAAAAAAnd rpm. down, aaaaaad plenty cutting-oil.
I'm going for a  :coffee: ,will check in later and look at your finished cutter :)

Have a nice "Shopday".
CS
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 06, 2011, 10:55:19 AM
Well I read all your replies and then went to give it another go. I decided to switch across to the lathe as it was easier to see centre height which was also a concern. I noticed my file was sliding a little off the cutter blank so I heated the blank silver steel to cherry and let it cool for half an hour back down - this seemed to soften it up a bit so maybe it was a little work hardened. Also being on the lathe now, it wasn`t likely to run too fast so I put it on fairly slow speed. I re-ground my cutters and made sure they were sharp. It cut very well, although one side cut better than the other which was a bit annoying, but it did cut. I ended up with this:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/ahh1.jpg)

I`m going off from John's plans now a little and I`m just using a single point cutter. It is unlikely I`ll use it again and to be honest, I`m cutting ally so it shouldn`t take too much of a bashing. I`m making ally gears, I know that it really is not suited but consider this will run a few times each year at maximum when it is built, I can`t foresee too many problems - thoughts?

So I cut the disk in half and bored it square to the face, hardened and  tempered. Needs a final grind now and sharepen but that is as far as I got:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/ahh2.jpg)

Now this picture concerns me a little - I think it is the angle that I`ve presented it to the camera but the cutter looks a little bent. It doesn`t look like this in real life so I`m hoping it is an optical illusion. I`m posting the picture anyway, it shows a rough profile of the cutter:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/ahh3.jpg)

So next job is to finally cut a gear!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on February 06, 2011, 12:46:29 PM
Did you lock the saddle before you fed in the cutter?
Looking at the picture it could be the saddle has moved - you did say one side cut 'better' than the other.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 06, 2011, 05:05:29 PM
Getting there Chris, am impressed - can't understand why it chewed the tool the first time - maybe the blank did get hard as a result of parting etc.

Guess the proof will be in the pudding when you cut the gear - it looks as though it could be an optical illusion though as there is a bigger shadow on one side.
 :thumbup:

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 07, 2011, 06:40:54 AM
Hi Kwackers, yes I locked the saddle so that wasn`t an issue. I`ve been looking at it and I just don`t know. I don`t know if it would be worth going ahead and making another cutter just to be on the safe side. It seems silly going ahead when I`m not convinced. I actually think it is an optical illusion but I know from the position of the cutter, the side that is less curved was the one that struggled cutting the most. I`m wondering if my cutting buttons were square with one another to the work. I pushed the cutter up against the tool post, but in retrospect I didn`t take the right edge of my cutter as my datum so the button front was not necessarly square to it. It didn`t take too long so rather than plough on I think I`ll have another go at cutting a new one.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on February 07, 2011, 06:44:20 AM
Use it to cut a slot in a small piece of say 1/8" brass. By flipping the cutter and inserting it in the other way you can figure out if it's symmetrical and if not, how much out it is.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on February 07, 2011, 11:56:09 AM
Hi Chris

Looking good  :thumbup:,,,,,,,,, did you make two gear cutters ?

Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 07, 2011, 11:59:53 AM
You know what Kwackers, you advised me to do that some time ago when I was onto my clock gears- good idea, I`ll give it a go later tonight before I cut the gear itself.

Rob - no just made the one cutter so far. I`ll make my second cutter one I`ve successfully cut my first gear. Setups are easy so I`ll not loose too much time making one after the other. The other will be for the 24 tooth 32DP wheel.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on February 07, 2011, 12:09:25 PM
Hi Chris

Forgot to ask  :doh:  ,, how thick are you making your cutter blanks ?


Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 07, 2011, 01:09:39 PM
Rob, the blanks are 0.125" wide as per John Stevensons instructions for a 32DP 48 tooth number 3 cutter:

Where blank width for a no 3 cutter: 4 / 32 (DP) = 0.125"

I didn`t understand this for some time as the blank width was irrelevant when I made the clock cutters because by profiling them you removed excess material from the sides that wasn`t needed. However I think I`ve figured it. I believe it is the clever way which John has fed in the profiling cutter - he centres the cutter so it is touching the edges of the buttons, for point 0 and feed in from there. That would therefore give an importance to cutter width.

Sorry, dunno why I`ve gone off on one - you asked for the cutter width - it is 0.125"  :smart:

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 12, 2011, 06:50:05 AM
Seems like everything on this gear cutting is taking me two attempts before I get it right. It is making me very frustrated and I have to say I`m getting a little stressed, not enjoying this bit. I`m considering going back onto the rest of the engine and coming back to this but no - I`m going to get there!

So it was going well, I`d made a new cutter which was true this time. When I said one cutter wasn`t cutting right, it was because it was above centre! Anyway, I needed to make the gear blank and I realised I needed the work in my smaller chuck for going on the mill so I indicated near with this little indicting tool I made and posted about a bit ago. Worked well and then i got it spot on with a few taps and the DTI setup.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/gearing1.jpg)


Then I used the madrel Stew made for the clock wheels. I cut a big brass washer with a bore so that the gear spigot could enter it. the washer was thicker than the spigot so when I tightened it up I was tightening onto the body of the gear blank and not the small surface of the spigot.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/gearing2.jpg)

Found centre height...

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/gearing3.jpg)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/gearing4.jpg)


and then it failed  :( :( :( :(
My first cut went fine. The second one made such a small gap between teeth that it was clearly wrong and not only that, the small piece bent. The bending was irrelevent as it was certainly too thin anyway. Ignore the one to the far right, once I`d made those first 3 cuts I just wanted to see the cutter was cutting OK. It looks fine, the edges have kicked up a good burr which could indicate the tool isn`t quite sharp enough but there is something wrong with my calculations to get that gap.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/gearing5.jpg)

So I think I`m going to do this for a while  :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

 :doh:

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 12, 2011, 06:50:51 AM
Do you guys take one pass at full depth (like all the clock makers suggest) or do you work into each cut?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on February 12, 2011, 09:50:56 AM
Hi Chris,  I sort of lost track of this log, or I would have chimed in earlier.  The most likely problem is work hardening.  Your silver steel and most hard alloy steels work harden rather easily, and to anneal them, you need full heat, up past critical, and usually need many hours of continued warmth as it cools.  I put a piece in my wood stove, and take it out of the ashes the next day.  When you work with cutters made from the same steel you're trying to cut, you are set up for disaster, as the same temperature/pressure conditions that work harden the blank will anneal the cutters you are using.  For what you are doing, I would suggest making the cutters out of silver steel, heat treat them, and draw a very minimum, just enough to keep the edges from shattering off from pressure.  I would use a piece of free cutting steel for the cutter blank, something leaded, use plenty of cutting oil, preferably brown sulfurated, because of the wonderful smell, not to mention the effect it has on cutting free cutting steel.  After you have the profile done on the blank, and you're satisfied it's right on both sides, then go through the work of cutting teeth, back clearance and all that, and when it's done, then case harden the cutter with casenite.  I use this method for gear cutters, and generally quench from the case hardening in oil, and don't temper at all.  That works well for both brass and aluminum gears.
    I don't think you work hardened the blank cutting it off unless you got signals saying so, like a nice blue color, and smoke coming off the cut off tool and maybe some sparks.  You can use silver steel or drill rod to cut silver steel or drill rod, however the hardness before heat treatment is such that it is very abrasive to its self, and very easily will anneal cutting edges, while leaving the rest of the cutter unaffected, and appear to still be hard, although the important edges are not.  I prefer to use brass for gears unless they really need strength, and I normally grind a high speed steel cutter for steel gears unless I can afford a proper form tool.  I prefer to use low carbon steel for cutters and case them, because they can be worked with a setup such as the one you're using, effectively, and they can be touched up with files and the like and stoned to perfection and then case hardened without changing their form.  I always take full depth cuts, to eliminate the possibility of error creeping in during changing the depth, and getting off track, making a mistake of my own which puts things on the wrong end, or something like that.  I hope this helps a bit.  Phil Duclos has done a couple of write-ups on making tools for gear cutting, I expect they are in his book, I know I saw them in some of the earlier HSM magazines, and in one of the Projects books which later came out.  Ta ta for now, mad jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 12, 2011, 12:33:08 PM
Madjack - yes I`m not sure why I had the problems, perhaps some work hardening. I also think the cutter tips were a little too high.

What I am most confused about now is why teeth are too close together. I have had time today to re-measure and I just don`t get it. All my calculations seem OK and the Outside gear blank diameter is fine. Yet the teeth are too close together and leaving too small a gap, just a flake of material between the teeth. OK I only cut two teeth, but I didn`t need any more to see that! I`m now confused!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: DeereGuy on February 12, 2011, 08:57:53 PM
Chris,
Why don't you try using a slitting saw first then follow up with your cutter?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on February 13, 2011, 12:18:43 AM
That looks like your blank is loose

Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on February 13, 2011, 11:41:41 AM
Hi Chris, I would echo both deere_x475guy and Bogs, and I think I'd put a caliper on the tip of the cutter and see if its the width that matches the tip of the gear teeth. :poke: mad jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on February 14, 2011, 01:14:49 AM
can I ask why you decided to make the gears from steel?  I have just completed my webster build and I made my gears from aluminum modeled after the 20 tooth and 40 tooth gears on my 7x12.  A dremel grinder and 30 minutes each and they were done and work beautifully....
Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on February 14, 2011, 01:45:31 AM
here is a quick video of the valve train...



and another of the motor running...  hope this helps with some ideas....



Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 16, 2011, 05:07:54 PM
Hi Doug, thanks for your replies to my thread. I do appreciate your comments and your approach with a dremel was definately unique and clearly produced some nice gears! Since I`ve gone the route of gear cutting, I`d love to stick to the original plans and try and make the gears - part of the challange now I`ve started it.

Bogs, you were dead right, something had moved. I tried another few teeth on the dead blank and found the same. The full cut on the machine was just too much for such a small machine and it was vibrating loose. I do realise that my tool should be sharp enough to take the cut - or maybe not with just a single point? Anyway, I went with DeereGuys advice and went around first with a slitting saw, obviously of smaller width the cutter tip and to just a few thou short of the full cut.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/yesgear1.jpg)

This removed a good bulk of the metal and as soon as I swapped over to the gear cutter, I could tell cutting the first tooth that cutting was much smoother! The cutter did pick up a bit of a burr (I think perhaps I need to make sure my next cutter is a bit sharper)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/yesgear2.jpg)

I also used a much bigger washer to protect the little spigot but it also supported my teeth more even though it meant cutting into it. I don`t think I needed it actually but still, it seemed to work.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/yesgear3.jpg)

...and then cleaned up and put on some 8mm silver steel for a proud picture  :ddb: I`m chuffed :D  So just like the plans call for, a 48 tooth 32dp gear. I just need to make a 24 tooth gear that will mesh with it...I guess that is the real proof of the pudding!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/yesgear4.jpg)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on February 16, 2011, 07:44:03 PM
Nice job.

Perseverance paid off this time, and now you should have no more fear of it.

You now know that you can make a cutter and cut a gear with it. It is just a matter now of fine tuning to get even more impressive results.


Bogs

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on February 16, 2011, 09:50:22 PM
EXCELLENT job!!!  That thing is perfect!!!  My shop grows a new machine or major tool each week, so maybe I will come across a mill in the near future that wont break the bank so I can start cutting them like that!

Do you have an indexing head or just a rotary table?

very sweet job, sir.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 17, 2011, 05:32:35 AM
Thanks guys, yes, perseverance has paid off! It is very much a case of learning and I really needed this one to work after so much effort. It looks OK to me but to be honest, the proof will be will it mesh properly! I certainly know a lot of improvements can be made on my next and perhaps I will have to come back and remake this!

Doug, the dividing index I have used was this: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2242.0  - very very helpful in the entire process!

I`m going to get the other one made now asap, I`m desperate to see if it`ll work!


Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on February 17, 2011, 09:22:19 AM
Hi Chris, that looks excellent, and as has been said, now you just have to fine tune your skills learned.  I've done this for some forty years, and most of my education came out of books from the turn of the last century, at a time when machine shops routinely used lathes to mill, and made do with equipment at hand.  Nothing we do as a hobby wasn't done for profit with less equipment and poorer tooling not so long ago, and the real tool that counts is what's between the ears.  If you learn to make your own tooling, there is nothing made you cannot duplicate ultimately, and the skills developed on tooling will improve your work on the piece you are building, as the tooling always has to be better than the raw material you choose to hack out your parts from.  Looking forward to that next gear, and moving forward with your Webster, a fine looking gear indeed. :beer: cheers, jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 17, 2011, 10:07:02 AM
Chris,

That is really impressive  :thumbup: looks spot on, is that from aluminium now?

I was going to ask before I saw your link to your cnc conversion but still will - would this have been possible without that or dividing plates and just winding by hand or it there too high probability of human error?

I'm thinking of buying a rotary table as got 100 squid to spend on myself for my birthday!

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 17, 2011, 02:13:37 PM
Cheers for the replies. Madjack - I agree totally, although it takes much more time making things yourself it does give you confidence to make anything and saves money! I mean the gear cutters are £22 each and with 8 cutters in each DP as a set, prices can mount!

Nick - Yes, the gears are ally. I think I`d have had to make a multitooth cutter for steel gears but I bet if I`d have removed some material with the slitting saw like I did, I bet I could have given it a good go. The CNC rotary conversion has been one of the best things I`ve done. That being said, I converted it straight away so only used it as a rotab with handle for a month or so.
When I first purchased my rotary table, I tried cutting a gear turning the handle but it was a joke. No matter how accurate I tried to be I could never perfectly get around with a large number of teeth; the last tooth always was way out. Like you identified, tiny errors stopping and cutting each tooth just compounded! I then went and purchased a vertex dividing head to fit the rotab. This was a right pita to use - now I`m going to get blasted here because people have been using these for years and still are but man, it was hard work! I couldn`t keep count, I kept mucking up....it was much harder than I ever imagined. I then fitted Kwackers dividing attachment and have never looked back. I can use it for dividing or jogging it slowly I can use it like a handle and turn my work through it.

I`d go for one and then look into the conversion. There are a lot of people who have built one on here now so you`d get as much help as you needed to get one up and running.

Hope that is some help!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on February 17, 2011, 03:58:46 PM
Nice gear Chris well done.

That tamed the beast  :whip:

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on February 18, 2011, 04:08:14 AM
Yeah it does help, thanks Chris - after seeing yours first then bogs, it does look superb. Actually somebody told me about them a long time ago, a guy from our club who devised a circuit himself - not sure whether it has all the features yours does though but he may be able to help too.

I can barely afford the rotary table at the mo that's the prob - I'll be using it more for dividing than an actual rotary table for milling curves I think. Suppose at least I could do the mod later.

This is the one I was thinking of though because it comes with the dividing plates and seems  a bargain:

http://www.warco.co.uk/HV6-Rotary-table-C32F40EE41.aspx

Guess I'd need to make up some sort of mounting to be able to take my chuck.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 18, 2011, 04:58:51 AM
Nick, it does look a good price but just because I`ve heard so much about them and got one myself, the 4" vertex at £130 is a cracking sturdy rotab.

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2erdgtools%2eco%2euk%2f&WD=vertex&PN=Rotary_Table%2ehtml%23a1258#a1258

I accidently lied earlier, I have the Vertex 4" not the 6". I did purchase the dividing plates ontop for a lot of money - I believed they were Vertex ones from RDG. When I did the mod I didn`t need them and sold them to someone on here and got into a bit of hot water when I found out they were actually Warco ones - but I definately purchased from RDG as Vertex!! A bit dissapointed about that one.

I certainly consider £130 for the vertex 4" table and then your only talking about £30 to make the controller! Then again you have a stepper motor to buy - £25? and the driver - ebay £25?? .... hummmm, I guess it does work out more.

I use mine 9/10 times for dividing. I`d try and make Kwackers indexing tool for sure.
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 18, 2011, 04:59:46 AM
Nice gear Chris well done.

That tamed the beast  :whip:

Stew

Cheers Stew - it took two years of taming before I`ve been able to manage cutting a gear all on my own  :coffee:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: scrapman on February 19, 2011, 10:46:24 AM
Great job Chris :clap:

Ray.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on February 25, 2011, 07:53:17 PM
Slow slow slow going....

I cheated, I purchased the second gear a 24 tooth 32DP off ebay for no more than £3! It is nice to see that my 32DP 48 tooth gear meshes with it so it was a success!!

I`ve tapped the cylinder which was tought and it fits nicely into the cylinder support. I`ve not got any nice cap head screws to fit so the screws in the photo are just temporary. I`ve also bolted the supports to the base piece and I`ve drilled them to fit the bearings. I`ve gone with bearings intead of bushes.

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/base12.jpg)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/base12.jpg)

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 16, 2011, 06:44:40 PM
Could anyone help me with reading the plans!!

http://home.comcast.net/~webster_engines/Plans.zip

Page 7 of 21
The wrist pin! I really don`t understand any of it - I literally can`t see how it should look and can`t read the plans at all. I expected the wrist pin to be simply a pin, maybe a slight taper that pushes through the piston to attach it to the con-rod. I`m sorry, feel a bit of an idot but I just can`t make it out!!

I`ll update with some pictures too soon! Not done much as I`ve had a busy month at work and home but I`ve now done the con rod!

Any help much appreciated!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: ieezitin on March 16, 2011, 08:14:06 PM
Chris.

Looks like there milled flats down .010 thou deep x .219 in from both ends, with a .094 bore through the pin x .188 od. It has a .015 flat 45* chamfer each end.



Anthony.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on March 16, 2011, 10:08:30 PM
Does this C-o-C explain it any better?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 17, 2011, 04:58:19 AM
I skipped all of that on my Webster as it is not needed to have the tiny socket head screws to hold the pin in.  Just make it out of brass (worked fine for me) or stainless with brass ends (more work than I wanted to do.)  The original one I made was stainless and it started to "polish" the cylinder walls, so I made one out of brass. 

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5098/5533809507_e68c0bbfc0.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5258/5534391042_ffb9347698.jpg)

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 17, 2011, 09:32:48 AM
John, yes, thanks a lot. If only all the parts were written in c-o-c, it would make much more sense to me!!  :ddb: 

Thanks again for your time and effort in posting.

dbvandy - yes, I did wonder if it was needed. If you are not using the grub screws how is yours staying in position - friction fit?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 17, 2011, 10:18:56 AM
...just another quick question.

I`ve ordered the 11/16 ID by 3/32 cross section O-rings. This obviously gives me the 7/8" OD I need. My question is, should it be slightly compressed in the groove or should the groove me 3/32 by 3/32" so that the o-ring is perfectly sitting with an OD of 7/8" ?

I`m guessing it should be a little bit compressed. Can anyone shed any light over the groove dimensions?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 17, 2011, 11:21:37 AM

dbvandy - yes, I did wonder if it was needed. If you are not using the grub screws how is yours staying in position - friction fit?


My pin floats.  it is about .020 smaller than the cylinder so it does ride along the cylinder wall, but it is brass, so it does not matter.  I did the exact same setup with the otto and it works great.


With the Webster I followed the spec for Viton o-rings and oversized the groove...  the o-ring slides up and down the piston about .040.  This just did not look right to me, so on the Otto, I cut the groove just a little larger than the thickness of the o-ring so that when it compresses, it fills the hole.

This is the sheet I followed, but I don't think it needs to be as wide as shown:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5133/5534434091_d5ba4a6134.jpg)

Doug

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 21, 2011, 01:11:27 AM
Doug, thanks for the info regarding the groove depth for the piston ring, I`ll be using that!

I`ve had little time over the last few weeks to spend much time on the Webster but I feel the few hours I had at the end of last week has pulled me back on track. I`ve finished the con-rod, drilled and bored true for the bearings in the main supports for the crank and also made the crank as well.

I decided to solder the crank together. I`ve done very little soldering and it didn`t go too well. I didn`t get the part hot enough and so the solder clumped on the metal rather than flowing in the joints. I got there in the end but there was more tidying up of the part than should really have been needed.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster201.jpg)

Here are the parts assembled along with the base and con rod. At all joints which require bushings on the plans, I`ve used bearings. My intention is to use a bushing on the piston wristpin.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster202.jpg)

And finally the parts "posed" together! The gear under the cylinder is proping it up as it isn`t bolted down just yet.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webster203.jpg)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on March 21, 2011, 02:52:52 AM
Comming together nicely Chris

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 21, 2011, 03:06:13 AM
That's looking good Chris!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 21, 2011, 04:26:53 AM
Thank you for your comments... I`m getting there. Whether it will run or not is a different story!  :doh:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 21, 2011, 04:43:11 AM
Chris, looking great that. The base looks easily thick enough to me too.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on March 21, 2011, 05:09:08 AM
Chris,

Now you are starting to slow down a bit and take your time, it is very noticeable in your work.

Compared to your earlier builds, this one is exceptional. Keep it up.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 21, 2011, 07:55:23 AM
Thanks John!

I`m still struggling to find data for the groove width and depth on this piston for the piston ring! The table that was posted would have been perfect only it doesn`t include a 3/32" cross section! I`ll have to try and work it out based on that data unless anyone can lend me a hand!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 21, 2011, 08:43:38 AM
Chris,

As Doug said, I believe the ring is technically supposed to roll slightly in the groove so it pushes against the groove wall and seals. This is maybe to get the lowest friction. I don't know whether the groove dia is supposed to be size for size or slightly larger than the id of the o ring. I would think, like you it's supposed to be marginally larger.

Might be worth checking if Marv has a program for this?

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on March 21, 2011, 08:52:10 AM
Chris,

Whenever I fitted o-rings as piston rings I looked at them in a slightly different way, in that I didn't want them rolling up and down in a wide slot. To me that stinks of maybe getting twisted up and uneven wear.

My way for a 3/32" (0.094") cross section ring would be to just cut a square section slot a couple of thou wider and the same shallower.

So 0.096/7" wide by 0.091/2" deep.

That way, the ring, by being pushed into the groove, would take up an oval shape, giving a nice side pressure to form the seal. As the ring wore away, it would slowly form a flat where it rubs on the cylinder wall and gradually return to it's original round shape.

Your bore does need to be rather smooth, otherwise it will wear away an o-ring fairly quickly.

I am sure that other people have different views on the subject, I just told you mine that worked for me.


John
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 21, 2011, 10:31:51 AM
I agree with Bogs...  The fitment of the o-ring is important, but not critical....  from all the information I read on the subject, the important thing is that you have pressure on the dynamic surface (cylinder) at all times.  The engine is very low compression, about 4 to 1 where a car is about 10 to 1, so you are not going to get much blow-by either way.  Jan Ridder does not even use o-rings in his engines, just a tight fit.

It is starting to look like something now!  I love that feeling!

Have you decided on ignition?  If I had seen this, I would have done it without a doubt...

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=13767

This CDI unit will make for a really clean install.  You still have to lug around a battery, but it will make a reliable spark.  Or you can go the route I did with the trimmer coil as it works beautifully and does not need anything else to run.  On the Otto, I used some neo magnets on the flywheel, so you don't have to use the finned flywheel from the trimmer.

Just some food for thought....

Doug.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 21, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Thanks for all the info regarding the piston o-ring. I`ll let you know how I get on.

dbvandy - I`m really not sure what I`m doing about ignition yet. A lot of it falls down to cost, what you showed me seems an excellent price. I`d quite like to use my smaller 10mm spark plug so I`m not sure if it`ll fit in place of the 14mm plug that comes with it. I`ve finally got my head around the points/contacts system that the original plans suggest but they look clunky and I believe I could do without them if I used the item you linked to?

Where or what is the hall sensor in this bundle and how will it be fitted?

(http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/CM-6spcap.jpg)

I believe this is the sort of thing:

REMOVEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeRE8SoxStU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

...but it worked out about £90+ when I priced it up. Is it the same sort of thing in the link that you have suggested?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on March 21, 2011, 03:14:27 PM
Nice thanks for showing  :bow: :bow:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 21, 2011, 09:21:09 PM
Thanks for all the info regarding the piston o-ring. I`ll let you know how I get on.

dbvandy - I`m really not sure what I`m doing about ignition yet. A lot of it falls down to cost, what you showed me seems an excellent price. I`d quite like to use my smaller 10mm spark plug so I`m not sure if it`ll fit in place of the 14mm plug that comes with it. I`ve finally got my head around the points/contacts system that the original plans suggest but they look clunky and I believe I could do without them if I used the item you linked to?

Where or what is the hall sensor in this bundle and how will it be fitted?

(http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/CM-6spcap.jpg)

I believe this is the sort of thing:

REMOVEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeRE8SoxStU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

...but it worked out about £90+ when I priced it up. Is it the same sort of thing in the link that you have suggested?

This has the CM6 plug boot as well... 

Includes:
Ignition Unit
Hall Sensor, Lead & Bracket
CM6 & 14mm style Plug Cap
Ignition Power Lead
Snake Wrap
Servo Lead Locks

The hall sensor is in the lower right with the red black and white wires.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 22, 2011, 02:46:01 AM
So what actually spins and triggers the hall sensor? I appreciate your advice, this is all new to me!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on March 22, 2011, 03:43:58 AM
Chris,

If you are looking to keep the price down, you can actually make your own.

I used to make the TIM 6 units, for less that around a fiver each.

It isn't the switchgear part that is the expensive bit, it is the coil. That is why these modules are rather expensive, they have it all built in.

If you can hide a car or motorcycle coil somewhere, then the TIM 6 version on here will be fine.

http://www.5bears.com/tim4.htm

Basically, you embed a small neo magnet in the flywheel or camshaft end, and as it passes the close mounted hall sensor, the sensor sends a signal to circuit which then fires the coil, et voila, spark at the plug (any size).

On the TIM 6 shown, it doesn't need to be a hall sensor, it could be contact breakers or even a microswitch.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: HS93 on March 22, 2011, 04:09:22 AM
Thanks for all the info regarding the piston o-ring. I`ll let you know how I get on.

dbvandy - I`m really not sure what I`m doing about ignition yet. A lot of it falls down to cost, what you showed me seems an excellent price. I`d quite like to use my smaller 10mm spark plug so I`m not sure if it`ll fit in place of the 14mm plug that comes with it. I`ve finally got my head around the points/contacts system that the original plans suggest but they look clunky and I believe I could do without them if I used the item you linked to?

Where or what is the hall sensor in this bundle and how will it be fitted?

(http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/catalog/CM-6spcap.jpg)

I believe this is the sort of thing:

REMOVEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeRE8SoxStU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

...but it worked out about £90+ when I priced it up. Is it the same sort of thing in the link that you have suggested?

Why is it £90 + when it is only $29 in the advert postage is not that bad from hobbyking I get stuff all the time ?

peter
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 22, 2011, 04:40:00 AM
John, many thanks for your explanation. I`ll have a good read of the link you posted.

Peter - I`m sorry, I didn`t make myself clear. I`m not sure myself what I would need for this sort of setup and so from a UK supplier (who will remain nameless because they gave me copious amounts of advice and info) all the parts came to £90+ !! This is why I questioned this price at $29 - I didn`t think it would surely include everything I needed!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 22, 2011, 05:04:33 AM
Chris,

I think the one you're talking about will have been specifically designed for model engines such as yours, while the one pictured is a commercial thing for replacing ignition on lawn mower engines and the like? It's not exactly compact by the looks of it.

As Bogs said, it's the coil that costs the money, you're into electronics so could easily make the circuit up and microswitches can last a long time, are compact, cheap and easy to replace. The other way is to completely use the setup the original webster had, car / motorbike coil, battery and contact breakers. You'd need a big base to hide all that in though!

Have you thought about piezo like Jan ridders uses on some of his? I think they sap a lot of power though.

Nick

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 22, 2011, 05:14:28 AM
I`m just looking over this and your right, this really is a bargain as it works out at £20 including postage providing it doesn`t get caught up in customs. I have been stupid and didn`t see that it is fitted with a CM6 plug which is what I wanted to use anyway!!  The link you sent John looks excellent and once I`ve got it running it might be something I experiment with for fun so that I can say it is truely all built including ignition but I expect I`ll have enough issues getting it running than worrying about building the ignition system as well. I think I`ll go ahead and order one of these for £20.

I hope it becomes obvious how to wire this up when it arrives! Will I need to use a car battery or could I use a battery pack to reduce size?

Also, looking at the video I posted, I noticed the hall sensor is attached to a modified axle of the second gear which is actually reducing the spark ignition to just spark once per two revolutions as per a normal 4 stroke right? I have been thinking, using the contacts (or the hall sensor) on the main crank shaft you`ll have a spark per revolution so does this mean one is redundant - does this matter?   

Chris

EDIT: Nick, you posted while I was replying. To be fair, the size of this unit looks about the same size (infact looks the same thing) as what was quoted at £90 for but maybe I`m wrong. I wouldn`t say I`m into electronics, I can get by but I`m not always confident in what I`ve made. I`ve been considering the coil and points method but I don`t mean to offend anyone, but it does look a little clunky!! I`ve not looked into a piezo ignition so I`ll have to have a google of that!   Working out the price of the unit that was suggested, I am still very much interested in that!
I do appreciate everyones advice... it would be much easier if there wasn`t all these options :D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: HS93 on March 22, 2011, 05:20:56 AM
I think you will find it it is small sa it is for a model plane or boat or car. the box is less than 2" long by about 3/4 high mesuring it against the rc plugs in the pictute.

peter
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 22, 2011, 05:45:10 AM
Well I`ve gone for it and ordered one. I`ve just found a couple of almost identical packages, in fact on one, the photo was identical just a different sticker on the electronics box and that was £60. I`ll let you know when it arrives.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 22, 2011, 06:07:34 AM
Sounds a good deal that then Chris. Will be interesting to see what it's like.

You're right, if you ran it off the large gear it would fire at the right times. If you ran from the crank it'd fire 2 x as much as it needs to but lots of ignition systems are apparently 'wasted spark'. Guess you're wearing the plug twice as much - can't see this being a problem as you don't generally change car spark plugs for about 40,000 miles these days. That's  a lot of sparks! If you're using a hall sensor there's nothign to wear there so shouldn't be an issue.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on March 22, 2011, 07:09:39 AM
I`m just looking over this and your right, this really is a bargain as it works out at £20 including postage providing it doesn`t get caught up in customs. I have been stupid and didn`t see that it is fitted with a CM6 plug which is what I wanted to use anyway!!  The link you sent John looks excellent and once I`ve got it running it might be something I experiment with for fun so that I can say it is truely all built including ignition but I expect I`ll have enough issues getting it running than worrying about building the ignition system as well. I think I`ll go ahead and order one of these for £20.




Part quote

a box and a load of wires sticking out of it  :zap: ,coming through customs  :( they are going to love the look of that when they X-ray it   :D call the Army quick

Just joking

I hope it does what it says on the tin because its a good cheap way to get some sparks , much cheaper that the sum of the parts purchased elsewhere 


I have had some electronic bits torn apart before coming from the US but it was just after 9/11


Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 22, 2011, 07:28:33 AM
...and to be fair, the function of the electronics parts is to mark a spark!!!  :doh: Humm, never considered that when I ordered!

Chrius
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on March 23, 2011, 08:50:25 AM
This looks like you are coming right down to the last little bits...  Question and please forgive my ignorance since I'm not an engine guy...   Are the basic differences between the different spark plugs defined by the following three items...?   The dielectric resistance, the operating voltage to strike a spark and the sustained current?
As a life long engine mech, the primary differences in plugs are thread size, the length of heat path from center electrode to cooling, and the size of the plug its self.  Resistor plugs are the common thing because they don't cause radio interferance with modern electronics, so their resistance is pretty common, and the plug size has gotten smaller because engines are so much smaller in weedeater applications, but other than that, plugs are pretty much the same, with the ignition units making most of the difference.  Almost any form of ignition will fire across a .020 in gap, and with model engines, this means we can use very small coils and low voltages, if we wish to.  I just pulled a champion plug from a weedeater engine which is ten mm thread, the smallest plug I've ever seen, and I believe it is the same as the cm-6, although I haven't seen on of those except in pictures.  In general, the higher the number, compared to other plugs of same manufacture, the longer the heat path, and the hotter the plug runs.  In an engine which is run continuously and for long periods, this is critical, as a too hot plug can cause a hole in the piston.  For model engines, this is not normally even an issue at all, and hot plugs don't foul as easily.  If you find your plugs getting fouled from messing around with timing, mixture and oil, the easiest way to "clean" it, so it will reliably fire is to hold it in a vise on the wire end, and aim a torch flame down between the center electrode and the casing with the threads, trying to get the blue tip of the flame on the center electrode.  Any oil down deep with show up as a pale blue flame around the opposite side of the ground electrode, as opposed to the reddish spread flame of the torch impinging on the steel, giving it the reddish hue, and aiming between the center electrode and ground from both sides, hits the hardest part to get up to temperature, and once there is no more light of "phantom" blue flame on the opposite side from both sides, you will fine pristine ceramic on the center electrode when it is cooled off. :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 24, 2011, 05:12:54 AM
Jack - thanks for the info - very informative stuff!


Firstly, I`d like to apologise for this next post! I`m so sad that I made a little video because I was so pleased with the piston seal! This is the longest bore I`ve done and I can safely say that turning it between centres was a great suggestion, it is true all the way through. I`m sorry, you`ll have to wait for photos of the piston as I put it together before taking any. But here is the video....

My finger is over the end of the cylinder bottom and I`m getting such good compression that is blows my finger away or in the reverse direction, sucks the crank back around! I`m very please with this as you can tell. All my other piston/cylinder seels on my other engines have been pretty poor! This is the first to give me a satisfying pop when removed!

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 24, 2011, 04:34:45 PM
That looks superb Chris  :thumbup:, presume that is with the o ring in place? What is the friction like? Don't think it will matter as much on an engine like this but I'd still aim to get it quite low if I were you.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 24, 2011, 05:09:19 PM
No !! No O-ring or it wouldn't be as impressive!!

The groove is cut ready for the o-ring but it is not in place yet. I tried it with out and got this great seal !! It is just cast on cast so turns very very smooth yet excellent seal.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 25, 2011, 05:59:31 AM
Excellent - told you, you don't need an o ring! You'll probably find the friction is quite high with an o ring, mainly the starting friction but the dynamic friction shouldn't be too bad, depending on how much you make it compress. The seal will obviously be even better but it might make it more difficult to start etc. With a hit & miss type engine you'd want to reduce the friction to as low as possible, but with this you should be able to live with the trade off of friction vs best possible seal.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 25, 2011, 09:38:52 AM
Yes, I`m going to try without. The groove is in place ready for the o-ring and the orings have arrived. I`m just thinking that after a bit of running the cylinder bore and piston might lap/smooth out (what is the right word?) and make a poorer seal. That being said, I lapped the bore to a good finish and also have highly polished the piston to get such a good fit so hopefully it might not.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 26, 2011, 03:13:32 AM
Yeah you could always try it without first, it should polish it nicely, although after a very long time it would wear oval. As long as the bore is very smooth, the using the o ring should make things wear less as it will sort of centralise the piston in the bore won't it.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 27, 2011, 05:48:32 PM
I thought I`d give the flywheel a go this weekend. To be honest, I`ve had several hours on it but I`m a bit off completion yet although hope to get it finished over the next few days. I really really liked how this turned out considering it is made from a dumbell 2kg weight as suggested in the plans. I was warned that the casting could be very bad but it was perfect, not a single flaw!

Here is the weight on a stub I made. I was turning it very very slowly. This was to simply turn the edge so that I could grip it in the outside jaws.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/flyw1.jpg)

Once gripped securely in the outside jaws, I faced one side. I then flipped it around so it sat flush on the back of the chuck and faced the other side until I had a nice slab. This required removing a lot of metal at slow speed so there was a good few hours of work just in this.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/flyw2.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/flyw3.jpg)

I removed it out of the chuck but marked its position so it could be returned. I then turned up a kernal for the centre out of brass and drilled and tapped the big end so that a grub screw can be used to tighten it onto the crank shaft.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/flyw4.jpg)


I then silver soldered the kernal to the cast blank, cleaned it up and put it back in the jaws at the marked position. I then centre drilled and this will now go on an arbour throught the centre bore to clean up and finish to size so that everything is concentric.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/flyw5.jpg)


Hopefully I`ll get it done in the next few days. I was just more impressed that these lovely disks of cast iron are available for very little and quite easily. I`ve just taken a load from my parents loft that I purchased when I was younger... they were going to find there way to the skip, now they are set to the swarf gods!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on March 27, 2011, 05:51:27 PM
Looking good  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 27, 2011, 06:22:45 PM
It will be spinnin on its own before you know it!!!

Good job!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 28, 2011, 02:26:15 AM
Those castings are a nice handy size, and quality, and price......  :thumbup:

Looking good/ progressing nicely Chris!  :clap: :clap:

David D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on March 28, 2011, 06:01:10 AM
Nice 1 Chris, looks really good quality.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on March 31, 2011, 06:07:59 PM
 :( :( :( :( My flywheel failed. I soldered the kernal into the centre. Drilled it and mounted on an arbour to take the outside to size and the wheel started spinning on the kernal, the solder had failed. I tried for a second time with the same results so clearly my soldering isn`t up to scratch! I`m going to have to read up more on brazing and buy some correct sticks - I`m using some I got from BQ and clearly it isn`t the right stuff. I`m guessing it need to be a good join as well as the weight of the cast spinning when trying to cut the outside rim is just too much and ripping it off the kernal!! I take it there should be no reason why I don`t get a good joint between brass and cast iron??

Anyway, not to be deterred, I didn`t really have any materials for a fly wheel and then looked through a box a kind madmodder gave me over a year ago (please shout out if you wish  :beer:) and in there was a ready cut fly wheel inside hub and outside, just not mounted together. So after a bit of measuring and take a little cut from the outside, I plugged the predrilled inside hole with a 15mm bar of aluminium cut to a taper and used loctite. I then loctited in the hub into the flywheel rim. The next day I drilled a new 8mm bore through the centre gripping the outside of the flywheel so the hole was concentric and tapped it to hold the flywheel to the crank shaft. Flywheel complete -well nearly, just needs a good polish! :D - OK I cheated a bit, but I figure the 5-6 hours work on the  failed dumbell made up for it.... BUT I will complete that, I`m not just going to leave it and give up.

I also had to made an adapter for the small 24 tooth spur gear so that it could be also held to the crank. The plans call for the spur gear to be attached to the flywheen but I figured I`d have no problems just using grub screws to fasten each to the crank independently.  

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/web101.jpg)

Here is the con rod and piston.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/web102.jpg)


(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/web103.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/web104.jpg)

So it is looking quite good now and turns nicely with a push on the flywheel yet has a great piston seal. I have a few questions if anyone can answer:

1. Obviously any advice regarding the soldering of the brass kernal to the cast iron surround would be useful even thought my flwheel is now made.

2. I now have to fit my 48 tooth spur wheel to the frame to mate with the 24 tooth gear. The plans just call for accurate measurement and drilling the frame to mount the stub on which the spur gear will sit. I`m just worried about the accuracy of this method. Because I made the gears they are not perfect and consequently they need to be as close as possible without binding. This method doesn`t allow any adjustment. I was thinking it might be worth mounting a stub on a bracket and then attaching the bracket to the frame on slotted holes to allow a few mm of adjustment. Do you think this is necessary?  Also, if the axle is actually attached to the spur gear and spins with it, going through the frame, you could actually run the hall effect sensor off this and just get the required 1 fire per 2 cycles rather than running it off the crank shaft and getting 2 fires of the spark plug per action of which one is wasted. Then again, I guess this is more hastle when it isn`t needed and it also forces the hall effect sensor to be mounted under the cylinder which is more ackward.


Thanks for any advice and your comments so far. I`ve got another week in work and then I`m off for a few weeks for Easter so I`d like to try and finish it in this next month! The next part to make after mounting the second spur gear and making the little valve leaver will be the valve itself....which looks horrible! Truth is, I don`t really understand how it works and is built, so lots of fun and games to come!!!

Chris

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bernd on March 31, 2011, 06:25:15 PM
Solder won't work to good on cast iron, also there is a lot of mass to heat. I'd Loctite©  the kernal, or what ever you call, it in place.

Bernd
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on March 31, 2011, 10:01:07 PM
I also had to made an adapter for the small 24 tooth spur gear so that it could be also held to the crank. The plans call for the spur gear to be attached to the flywheel but I figured I`d have no problems just using grub screws to fasten each to the crank independently.  

1. Obviously any advice regarding the soldering of the brass kernal to the cast iron surround would be useful even thought my flwheel is now made.

2. I now have to fit my 48 tooth spur wheel to the frame to mate with the 24 tooth gear. The plans just call for accurate measurement and drilling the frame to mount the stub on which the spur gear will sit. I`m just worried about the accuracy of this method.

I attached mine to the crank with 2 screws 90 deg apart.  worked good

Brazing with brass brazing rod and an oxy acy torch will work, but you have to get it real hot...

With the crank installed, but no flywheel, lay the central upright on its side and place the large gear up to the smaller one just above where it would clear the base plate.  mark the hole with a transfer punch and mount the gear.  You might find that the crank throw would hit anything that went through the upright to the other side.

When you are turning the valves you have to do both surfaces in on setup and put your compound at 45 degrees.  I made my block a bit thicker than the plans so that I could use bigger bolts and have more surface to seal the valve guides to the block.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on April 01, 2011, 01:52:59 AM
I've seen that flywheel someware before  :scratch:

As Bernd and the guys said not s good idea to solder the cast iron it will take a lot of heat to get it up to temperature, even more heat is required for brazing unless you've got the Kit to get the temperature real high stay clear of brazing.

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 01, 2011, 03:01:20 AM
I've seen that flywheel someware before  :scratch:

Stew

 :beer: :beer: :beer: It has come in very useful !!  :beer: :beer: :beer:

Thanks for the advice regarding the cast iron brazing - I`ll stick with Stews flywheel, I`m just not sure if it has enough weight.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 01, 2011, 05:46:48 AM
I didn't think it'd be easy to solder cast iron and was going to say something - but then I remember my dad brazing some cast iron (with sif bronze and oxy acetylene) so thought it could be done and was being stood corrected. I'd loctite it too, alternatively, how big is the hole in the dumbell? You could make a taper collet like Stews?

Current flywheel looks the part though  :thumbup:

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: srm_92000 on April 01, 2011, 08:34:14 AM
Hi Chris,

I am just starting to get some bits together to attempt a Webster-ish build.
I planned on putting adjustment on the gears by boring a hole in the side plate for the second gear larger than required and use a bronze bush with a slightly eccentric hole for the gear.
The bush is then rotated to adjust the mesh and locked in place with a screw in the edge of the plate.

As to the flywheel, maybe drill a hole on the joint of the two parts and loctite in a pin as a sort of key.

Steve.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: BlueRock on April 02, 2011, 07:13:48 PM
Hi Chris

Re the flywheel, you could cut a keyway into the flywheel and the kernal and key them together as well as using some locktight to make sure nothing is going to move. Your build is looking good!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on April 03, 2011, 05:55:31 AM
Nice going Chris  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 making good progress  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:  by the looks of things should be a runner soon  :thumbup:


Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on April 03, 2011, 08:07:25 AM
I have shown this before in my other posts Chris.

Stick the bush in with a dab of loctite or superglue, as long as the bush doesn't move when doing the second operation.

Drill three, say 2.5 holes equispaced around the flush join, and then tap them out to say 3mm. Stick a grub screw down into each threaded hole, and the hub will then be a permanent fixture. Or if you don't want to use grub screws, normal screws will do, and then when in tight, cut them flush and machine them to a nice finish.

That is the method I used for fitting the flange on the tube when I did my RT mod.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 03, 2011, 08:29:34 AM
Guys, thanks for all the suggestions and words of encouragement! John, yes that is a really great idea - I`ll go for that method for sure! Although Stews flywheel looks amazing and the hub is nicer than anything I could do, I don`t think it is weighty enough. I`ll let you know how I get on!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on April 03, 2011, 09:03:12 AM
Hi Chris,  silver solder is about the only way to get a good solder joint with cast iron, and you need pretty much the same kit for it as you do for brazing, so if you're not set up for brazing, you've got to go with what you've got.  John's suggestion is about as solid as they come, that's what I'd do.  With regard to the gears, if you run a cigarette paper between the gears and use it to make space, you can use a transfer punch and get your hole right where you want it, and the paper will make sure you've got enough backlash as long as your gears are close to round and even.  Aluminum foil will work, but it makes for more space, and maybe some noise from the gears being too loose.  Cigarette papers are almost all universally one thousandth thick, and can be very useful in finding zero with a cutter, without touching the work and for bits like this, spacing out gears with minimum working backlash.  Looking good, and coming to a point it's getting close to fire. :beer: cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 04, 2011, 04:09:03 AM
Madjack - yea, I don`t have an equipment for brazing. The truth is, I don`t really know the difference between soft soldering, silver soldering and brazing - or if they are the same thing - or certainly the latter two. It is something I need to do more research on and get equipt for later on when I have more understanding in general machining. I`ll go with three threaded screws machined flush and see how it goes, it seems like a sound method

I`m looking into the future a bit and planning ahead for the time when I`ll need to sort out a carb. Apparently the one in the plans is not so good and my plan was to build the one designed for the NE15s. However, I was doing some googling last night and came across this very very simple looking vapour carb:

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9587.0

Look down the page to the post by Chuck. There were some concerns regarding the safety of this system with the webster - I can't see it being valid but I was curious as to others thoughts. I expect that the fuel concentration in the tank is far too high for any explosion if the spark in the cylinder some-how comes back down the line. Any thoughts?

EDIT:
Just to add another quick question - I`ve been confused about this for a while. What is the best way to cut a cam? It is just cut it free hand and file it?  I`m guessing any machining method would be complex for a one of cam?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on April 04, 2011, 04:50:20 AM
this site should give you the low down as to silver soldering ect http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/



Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 04, 2011, 12:48:23 PM
I just hand filed it for the flame gulper - somewhat of a different shape on an ic but sure it could be done. The shape may be a bit more critical on yours.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 07, 2011, 04:36:04 PM
Hello, I`ve got a bit more done on the Webster. I thought I`d try something different to make my cam. My idea was that if I cut the OD to that of the "lug" of the cam and then placed the blank on my CNC rotary table. The problem with this method is that it would create a slight radius upto the lug which should ideally be flat. If I used a large enough cutter, with the cam being so small then the radius would be minimum and in my opinion, shouldn`t effect anything...I may stand corrected!!

I did some calculations because I needed to work out the angle I needed to turn the rotab to end up with the correct width of the lug on the cam. Not very interesting but here are the calcs...

http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/camdata.jpg

I then set about machining:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam1.jpg)

Nice and slow, but you can see the lug forming. I was just going back and forward using the rotab.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam2.jpg)



Then removed, centered in the 4 jaw and reamed off plan so that it would suit the mount on my 48 tooth gear I made.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam3.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam4.jpg)

and here it is with the gear mounted the wrong way around so I could see the cam acting on the exhaust lever.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam5.jpg)

And here is the lever part way through machining. I enjoyed doing this piece, it was quite straight forward yet an interesting shape:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam6.jpg)

And all together... once again the gear is mounted the wrong way around so we can see the cam!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam7.jpg)

So the next job now which I am absolutely dreading is the valve block - I really need to get my head around this, how it is machined and what the parts are even doing!

Could anyone who has made the webster explain, or ideally a photo, to show how you have made your spring to keep the lever lifted?

I also got a nice supprise in the post today...

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/cam8.jpg)

but more on this soon....

Cheers
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on April 07, 2011, 04:38:58 PM
Looking good Chris

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on April 07, 2011, 05:00:52 PM
Looking very nice, good work.  :thumbup: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 07, 2011, 08:00:38 PM

So the next job now which I am absolutely dreading is the valve block - I really need to get my head around this, how it is machined and what the parts are even doing!

Could anyone who has made the webster explain, or ideally a photo, to show how you have made your spring to keep the lever lifted?


I did not use a spring on the rocker rod to keep it up.  most people that I have seen do not even use one, I did not need it.  The only real thing it will do is help quiet the rocker down when it slams up against the cam.

The valve block is in 3 parts.  The plans call for 1/4 inch stock, I did 5/16 so that I could have a little more meat between the valve guide and the edge of the block.  also, I did not want to use 4-40 screws to bolt it to the head, I used 6-32 so I could tighten it down a little tighter.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4413.msg48377#msg48377

I also wanted my exhaust to point up, so I made the exhaust a bit longer and drilled a hole in the top for the pipe.  

THE most important thing with the valves is doing the face and stem in one setup so that they are concentric... same with the guide.  Do the guide first and drill out the hole for the stem.  then you can measure it with a numbered drill and match the stem to it perfectly.  Mine are .007 different (don't know how the heck that happened, same drill, same setup...), but the valve stem was turned to match, so there is .0025 clearance on each.

One other thing is to plan on making some paper gaskets for the two faces.  Do not depend on a nice surface to seal, the 4-40 screws can't put enough pressure on the two port plates to seal it good.  I also put an o-ring and a piece of brass tubing between the head and the manifold.  It gets VERY hot because of the exhaust gasses, so do not use any liquid sealer of any kind, it will just melt and gum up your piston (ask me how I know...)

If you can get it there, get some high temp loctite, as it is good up to almost 400 degrees to seal the valve guide into the ports.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 08, 2011, 06:23:53 AM
Thanks for your reply but I hate to say - I don`t know the jargon your using so can`t identify the areas you are mentioning!

I`d really appreciate it if you or someone could explain what parts you mean here:

Quote
THE most important thing with the valves is doing the face and stem in one setup so that they are concentric... same with the guide.  Do the guide first and drill out the hole for the stem.  then you can measure it with a numbered drill and match the stem to it perfectly.  Mine are .007 different (don't know how the heck that happened, same drill, same setup...), but the valve stem was turned to match, so there is .0025 clearance on each.

I`m not clear where the face and stem are, and what you are explaining should be concentric? Sorry !! Also, where is the head and manifold? Is this where the valve block aligns with the cylinder support inlet?   :doh:

I`ve also been trying to figure out how the valve opperates and I can`t get it to work in my head. Take the bottom exhaust block of valve block. The valve head sits in the valve guide and is kept square. The spring pulls on the valve guide to pull the valve head to the bottom of the guide. This allows exahust gases to pass from the cylinder out through the centre block and out down the exhaust. When the cam comes around and lifts the valve, this is going to lift the valve head past the exhaust hole and stop the exhaust.  This is the wrong way around then it should be working!!! I`ve drawn some diagrams and in my opinion the exhaust should be open for 1/4 of the cycle, which makes sense, 1/4 of the 4 strokes (1 stroke). The way I see the valve block opperating is the opposite. It will be open for 3 strokes and closed for one.
I can`t see at all how the top inlet valve is working since there is nothing acting on that sprung valve - or does it open by its own cylinder pressure?

Any help, advice or explanation would be hugely appreciated!

Chris

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 08, 2011, 09:51:11 AM
Hope this helps...

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5268/5600625856_b63d201ae2_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5270/5600625604_21ea4b841d_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5266/5600625654_7918580a89_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5600625784_be2cbd8175_z.jpg)

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5600625716_6499abfc26_z.jpg)

This is the most critical part of the build and must be the most precise.  If your valves leak even a slight amount, the engine will not run right.  if you take your time and get the dimensions correct and on the same axis, it will seal perfectly.  You can do this....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 08, 2011, 03:46:36 PM
Chris,

you're right about the valve being open for approx 1/4 of a cycle or 1 stroke. The angle on the cam from the point where it starts to open the valve, to the point where it is fully shut again will be about 90 degrees. Don't forget that it's driven at 1:2 ratio though so for that 90 degrees the piston will have done a full stroke.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 08, 2011, 05:58:23 PM
Doug  :beer: :beer: :beer: :bow:  Thank you for the time taken in your reply! It has cleared everything up  :beer: :beer:

I`ll tell you where I was making my error (like a fool)...

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5229/5600625716_6499abfc26_z.jpg)

You see in the right hand diagram, .188" from the bottom, it shows an angle cut at the end of the large hole. I stupidly thought this was the valve seat angle! So I thought the valve seated lower then the inlet/exhaust hole and couldn`t understand how it was closing. Clearly now looking at it the valve head wouldn`t fit but it certainly got me. Anyway...with all that cleared up, I`ll be making a start tomorrow!

Nick - it is good to see I have got something right!!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 09, 2011, 02:43:42 AM
Chris, I've spent years studying the theory of this but probably never dared to take the plunge - at least you've just got out and started making it - which puts you way ahead of me now  :bow:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 09, 2011, 05:12:23 PM
Nick, lol, I`ll be ahead of you if it works!  :lol:  This valve will be a miracle if it works!!  :doh:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 09, 2011, 05:34:04 PM
I thought I`d start with the valve guides. I did consider the blocks first but considering the valve guides would have to be machined with the large end towards the tailstock, I wouldn`t be able to check for a good fit in the block anyway, so thought I`d start with these!!

This was a tricky little task, very small with quite a bit of detail! I did what I thought was the best order of machining and ended up with them complete and just requiring parting off to size on the end of the rod!!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/guideweb1.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/guideweb2.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/guideweb3.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/guideweb4.jpg)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: j45on on April 09, 2011, 05:41:40 PM
Wow nice job on those Chris   :bugeye: they are tiny
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on April 09, 2011, 05:44:29 PM
Amazing, you rock  :bugeye:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 10, 2011, 01:28:28 AM
They look GREAT!  I had some bronze bolts that I used for mine.

I remember when I was doing the guides and valves for the Otto that I was amazed at how large they were after doing the ones for the Webster.

If you use a numbered drill to check the exact size of the guide hole and make the stem of the valve to match, it should work perfectly!

Do you plan on winding your own springs?

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on April 10, 2011, 11:22:01 AM
Hi Chris, I watch your build with enthusiasm and a bit of amusement, as what you are doing is what I've done most of my life on a larger scale, and yet the exact same issues are important and confront the engine builder.  From that perspective, remember that paper gaskets not only seal things up, they also act as heat dams, reducing transferred heat to things like carbonators, which sometimes makes the difference between barely running, and a great running engine.  I have used a piece of shirt cardboard, spray painted on both sides with aluminum paint, several coats letting each dry in between, as head gaskets for motorcycles and car engines, when I couldn't afford or couldn't get real gaskets.  Those guides and seats turned out great, and should be just the thing to make it run well, I'm looking forward to the video of it running. :hammer: :poke: :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 12, 2011, 09:46:44 PM
I hate that we lost a few days worth of posts.... :zap:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 13, 2011, 02:27:37 AM
HAHA - I can`t bloody believe it!!!

If any of you read my reply before it was deleted, I wrote that there must have been another problem with the site because when I clicked to "post" my long reply, it told me the website was down and I lost my post. However, 20 mins later I managed to make another post. Now it has been deleted again, lol,  :lol: :bang:  This post really isn`t meant to be!

I just wanted to say thanks for the words of encouragement from those that posted and had posted but have been deleted due to the server crash.

Madjack - I`m glad your enjoying reading this thread and it is nice to hear that others have the same issues I have!

Doug - I haven`t thought too much about the springs yet. I guess they are quite important in terms of how much pressure they are applying - did you wind your own springs or where did you get them from?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 13, 2011, 10:01:03 PM
Doug - I haven`t thought too much about the springs yet. I guess they are quite important in terms of how much pressure they are applying - did you wind your own springs or where did you get them from?

I wound my own for the webster, but not the Otto.  it is pretty straight forward and you can get the music wire from about any hobby shop.  Any hardware store should have a selection of springs, you just have to make sure the intake is lighter than the exhaust.

You can do it....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 14, 2011, 05:44:55 AM
Doug - I may very well wind my own then. I have another question if you will; How did you connect the intake and exhaust to the valve block? I know the plans call for drilling 0.188" through the valve blocks into the guide (that is correct isn`t it? - you insert the valve guide into the valve block, loctitie it in and then once set, drill through the block and through the guide so that gases are entering below the valve?) Anyway, my question was how to attach the actual carb or exhaust itself. 0.188" is about 4.7mm, considering I`ve made the block a bit thicker as you advised, would it be worth drilling through the valve block and guide 4.2mm (just under 0.188") and then tap M5 so that any exhaust or intake can be screwed into positions? Or would the seal not be good enough? I just prefer the idea that inlet and exhaust can be changed than permenantly loctited in position. Any thoughts?
  

Anyway, after playing around with my fire piston, I moved onto the valve block.I really struggled to come to a decision on how to machine this. As far as I could see, the important factors were that the 3 blocks had to have a perfectly flat surfaces to mate well (I expect gaskets will be used still) and that one of the long sides will be perfectly flat so that it will seal well with the cylinder head. I needed to convert the bolt holes to metric because I didn`t want to go searching for the imperial bolts. I changed them all to M3, but it was hard work as they were quite close to holes colliding with one another going through in all directions.

I wanted to use brass so I took one of my stock 1.5"  square bars and cut off 3 slithers. I then faced up the surfaces to thickness. I moved from the plans as another builder, Doug, advised, making the top and bottom block a little thicker to allow a better connection with the exhaust and intake.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve1.jpg)

So now do I work on each individually and hope they all square up at the end? No chance, I know my limitations and the only way I would get everything to locate would be to make it as one block. So I marked out the top block but allowed 1mm the close sides to machine back as well so in reality I didn`t have a datum face yet.

I then clamped, drilled through the top two blocks and tapped the bottom block, holding them all together.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve2.jpg)

I then spent a long time aligning the bolts with the new face that was to be cut, i.e getting the bolts parallel with the bed. I then squared up the rest of the block to size:
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve3.jpg)

I then centre drilled (and will located off this hole when I took it apart to increase the hole dia of the two out blocks. I then horizontally drilled the two holes to bolt the block the head. This was near to colliding with the centre hole and the 4 holes holding the block together. I had concerns the drill would wander and intercept another hole ruining the block but I peck drilled slowly and all was fine! I then countersunk the holes for countersunk allen screws.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve4.jpg)

From the other side, the 0.188" hole is drilled into the centre bore of the valve block which connects to the head.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve5.jpg)


I then took to block apart so that I could drill and counter drill the outside blocks to insert the valve guides.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve6.jpg)


And this is where I am currently at... an exploded photo showing the top valve guide fully inserted and the bottom valve guide about to be pushed into position.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/valve7.jpg)


One of the valve guides is a fantastic pressure fit, the other is just a "good" fit so I hope that the loctite I use will provide a good enough seal. I expect it will. So the next job is to loctite them in place once I`m happy everything is ok, let that set and then drill into the side of the blocks, through the guides for the exhaust and inlet holes. Before all that, I need to cut the valves and use some grinding paste to lap them to the valve guide seats.



 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on April 14, 2011, 05:55:32 AM
It's nice to see how every thing come to place, nice work  :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 14, 2011, 08:56:55 AM
Looks EXCELLENT!

I predrilled the the holes into the blocks, then pressed in the guides and then drilled them through.  It might not be necessary to do this, but I wanted to make sure it was all lined up before I drilled through the guide as it was easier to make a new block than a new guide and possibly valve)

As for the carb....  I turned an adapter, something like is on page 14.  I never could get the RC carbs that I have to work properly, however, so I went with the vapor carb like is in Jan Ridders plans. I really feel this is the way to go as it is fool proof, works really well and you have to build a tank anyway,so why not combine them.  If you can get a carb to work, that would be cool, but I found it very frustrating.

You are getting close!!!!!!!!!!!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 14, 2011, 09:48:19 AM
AHHHHH !! The plans did say to pre-drill! So you actually drill through to where the guide will be inserted, then when you insert the guide, you can see it is located properly so that your only going through the side of the guide and not going to ruin it??  :doh: This now makes sense!  :bow: :bow: Perhaps obvious, but I didn`t understand why predrilling the holes was needed.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 14, 2011, 09:53:29 AM
Sorry Doug - it says that the adapter is loctited to the carb, but what about the other end into the valve block - loctite here as well? I just thought a thread on this end would be better??
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 14, 2011, 10:05:35 PM
Sorry Doug - it says that the adapter is loctited to the carb, but what about the other end into the valve block - loctite here as well? I just thought a thread on this end would be better??

I have 2 .12 RC motors with carbs that have 10 mm throats, so I loctited the adapter into the valve block and then had a tight slip fit on the carb to adapter part so I could experiment with different setups.

I still HIGHLY suggest you try the vapor carb.  You get full throttle response (I could get mine to 5600 RPM and down to 600...) and it is VERY forgiving....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 16, 2011, 05:01:39 PM
Doug
Thanks for then info!! You have ben very helpful!! I`m sorry, I have been meaning to say that I have been intending to use the vapour carb for months now so yes, I will be taking your advice here. I just keep talking about the "carb" because it is what the plans state. OK, thanks again.
I`m struggling like hell to cut the valves. Must have wasted about 5 hours now on unsuccessful attempts. 1" is just causing chatter and a terrible unusable finish on the shaft.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 17, 2011, 12:39:37 AM
Doug
Thanks for then info!! You have ben very helpful!! I`m sorry, I have been meaning to say that I have been intending to use the vapour carb for months now so yes, I will be taking your advice here. I just keep talking about the "carb" because it is what the plans state. OK, thanks again.
I`m struggling like hell to cut the valves. Must have wasted about 5 hours now on unsuccessful attempts. 1" is just causing chatter and a terrible unusable finish on the shaft.

I did mine with the head part on the tail stock side with a live center in it, then cut off the extra little stub... Here is a pic the valve from the otto, but done the same way:

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5220/5465504504_f64963044e_z.jpg)

Doug

 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on April 17, 2011, 03:01:08 AM
Chris,

If you still have trouble making them from solid, the other way is to silver solder the valve head onto a precision shaft, and machine it to shape afterwards.

Just another recognised way to do it.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 17, 2011, 02:20:29 PM
Chris,

If you still have trouble making them from solid, the other way is to silver solder the valve head onto a precision shaft, and machine it to shape afterwards.

Just another recognised way to do it.


Bogs

I thought about doing that for the V4 quad cam, but I don't trust it.  It seems like a solid piece of metal is more sound than two pieces soldered together....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 17, 2011, 02:47:46 PM
Bogs, I've seen the soldered method used before too to good effect, guess you could use a piece of silver steel then and chuck it in a collet.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on April 17, 2011, 03:12:40 PM
Nick,

I have used that method a few times in the past, where the valve stems required were rather thin.

As long as your silver soldering is in the capable category, then it saves a lot of wasted material, plus the stems fit the guides perfectly.


John
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 17, 2011, 05:30:40 PM
Hi John

I must admit, I`ve just done one of the valves using the method that Doug described. I didn`t want to do it with the head at the tailstock, ideally I wanted to do it the other way around so I could keep testing the shaft in the valve guide but I think that has something to do with my lacking in confidence in my machining. However, with some careful measuring and using my mircona parting tool with a live centre in the tail stock, it took me about 45 minutes and countless measurements, but I`ve managed one. I then went for a second one, spent another 30 minutes and bent the damn shaft parting it off!!  :palm:

I`m in two minds as to carry on and try another. The one I`ve made is a very good fit, but I do believe that it is a fraction narrower than the 3/32 drill rod I have tried in it.

I don`t want to waste too much of your time because I must admit I might go first try and machine another one piece valve but could you briefly explain how you would go about making a 2 piece valve? I think I`ll go tomorrow and see if I can get a few 3/32" drill rod sections and then make some two piece valves and see which are best. I`m guessing you would cut your drill rod section to size and then on the end of a steel bar stock, centre drill, turn the OD and the cut the valve head angle, insert the drill rod and silver solder up?   I think I`d have two concerns, holding the shaft absolutely square to the head (will the hole in the head square it automatically?) and secondly, I`d end up getting solder on the shaft and where the shaft and head meet, probably stopping it mating correctly with the valve. Could you loctite the shaft into a head?

Chris  
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on April 18, 2011, 03:50:45 AM
I think a little common sense and more thought is required with your last statement.

In such a hot environment, Loctite would definitely not work.

With regards to fitting the seperate valve head. What I do is to make the valve head slightly larger than what is required, drill the hole for the stem then part it off slightly overlength. Just remember, the hole requires to be a couple of thou larger than the stem, to allow the solder to penetrate and make the strong joint required.

That is then silver soldered to the stem, and then a brass or aluminium split collet is made to fit the stem for holding in your chuck, unless you have a very true running collet set. By holding the head as close as possible to the chuck, the head is very finely and gently turned to size, perfectly concentric to the valve stem. When silver soldering, carry out from the opposite side of the head to the stem, just to stop solder flowing up the stem, and on no account, if using silver steel (drill rod) cool it down by artificial means (dropping into water) otherwise you might find that you won't be able to machine the head as it will get hardened too much, let things cool down naturally. I always used stainless steel for the heads.

I have made valves by both methods, and I found that this method caused less anal sphincter twitching when valves with such small stems were required.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 18, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
The plans on page 10 state that the valve guides are "pressed and loctited into place" in the valve block. I was presuming that the valves would therefore be at a very similar temperature as the loctite supporting the guides in the blocks. I`m going to have to get some high temp loctite anyway so I was just thinking it might work for both... clearly your advice is that it will not, but that is where my thoughts had come from.

 I`ve just come back from my local K-supplies with a few lengths of 3/32" silver steel however, I expect I`ll try and machine another valve for the time being as I don`t expect my silver soldering skills are good enough. I didn`t appreciate that the hole needed to be a fraction bigger to allow the silver solder to flow into the joint. It seems obvious but my last failed attempt at silver soldering I expect I made the two parts too tightly fitting. I also didn`t consider that the head would be turned after being attached to the shaft. I stupidly was thinking that the head would be turned to shape and size and then soldered concentric with the shaft, which would be extremely difficult. So using the correct method, your basically using the silver steel as a perfect shaft diameter and then silver soldering a wide head blank which you then turn to size once fitted to the shaft so that it is machined concentric with it. Thank you, that makes sense. I may very well give it a go (or even have to give it a go if these one piece valves don`t work out)!

Cheers
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 18, 2011, 08:12:29 AM
The plans on page 10 state that the valve guides are "pressed and loctited into place" in the valve block. I was presuming that the valves would therefore be at a very similar temperature as the loctite supporting the guides in the blocks.

The valve guides do not take the beating that the valves will take and the amount of surface area that the valve guides and valve block have will keep it from moving.

My valve blocks never got above 220 degrees F when running full out, so the high temp loctite hold them just fine.  The problem I think results from the two piece design is keeping the head and stem concentric without having a perfect collet in my lathe. 

I bent one up when I was doing it the first time as well, so don't let that get you down... those things are tiny...  I did make a little collet to hold the valve as I faced the head and stem to length.  I cut mine off with a hacksaw and then faced it to size.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on April 18, 2011, 11:41:58 AM
Just to chime in a bit, when the valve is open, the head gets much hotter than the cylinder or valve seat, as the stem is the only heat drain.  Silver solder works because it's high temp, but locktite was never meant to be in a combustion chamber.  In making small valves, I've found using a free cutting steel, whether it be something like 12L14 or one of the easier to machine stainlesses is the key, and machining them with the head towards the headstock, the stem with an extra bit for a center hole, supported in the tailstock until it is to size and the retaining groove cut, (if that is how it is retained) in the stem, then the head contoured with the 45 angle, and a very thin cut off tool made, something about as thick as the valve stem, so cutting off at the head, can be a final finish on the face of the head.  Once cut off, a split pair of rounds to clamp the stem in, and then cut off the stub from the tailstock end, has given me good service and heads and stems accurately aligned.  Two piece valves can also be riveted together and hold well too.  The head needs a shoulder to butt up to, and a taper for the riveted end of the stem to obdurate into to seal it, but it takes great care to keep from bending the stem while riveting it in place.  Glad to see everything going along well, and getting closer to firing it up. :bugeye: :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 22, 2011, 11:02:00 AM
Guys, I did reply to these messages but my battery went on the laptop and I lost it, then I lost the will to repeat it! Sorry. Basically I was appreciating that I was being a moron considering loctite!

Finally, I have made a successful valve after many failed attempts at one piece valves. My pal Rodger kindly offered to silver solder some .25" heads onto 3/32" drill rod shafts with me, so that the valves could be machined from these blanks. I haven`t done any silver soldering so although I did consider this method, I couldn`t attempt it. Once I had these blanks at home, it took me 10 minutes to complete the valve, including cross drilling the 3/32" shaft 1mm, which surprisingly went just fine!
I`ll show pictures of the valves once complete and polished, but here is a quick photo of the first valve I made with the 3 other blanks behind it (I only need 2 valves, so we made 2 spares!!)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/1valve2.jpg)
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on April 22, 2011, 12:46:33 PM
Guys, I did reply to these messages but my battery went on the laptop and I lost it, then I lost the will to repeat it! Sorry. Basically I was appreciating that I was being a moron considering loctite!

Finally, I have made a successful valve after many failed attempts at one piece valves. My pal Rodger kindly offered to silver solder some .25" heads onto 3/32" drill rod shafts with me, so that the valves could be machined from these blanks. I haven`t done any silver soldering so although I did consider this method, I couldn`t attempt it. Once I had these blanks at home, it took me 10 minutes to complete the valve, including cross drilling the 3/32" shaft 1mm, which surprisingly went just fine!
I`ll show pictures of the valves once complete and polished, but here is a quick photo of the first valve I made with the 3 other blanks behind it (I only need 2 valves, so we made 2 spares!!)

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/1valve2.jpg)

That looks great...

My mini lathe has a repeatability in the chuck of +/- .0015, so I wonder if that would be too much for the stem to head concentricity.  Probably not...  A collet would make it zero, so maybe I need to buy more tooling...   :clap:

looks good...  bout time to make some fumes.. I can't wait to see the ignition work, as I will be ordering one next week....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 23, 2011, 09:41:19 AM
Looking good Chris, another string to your bow that I am yet to try!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on April 25, 2011, 11:47:14 AM
Hi Chris, we only say we're making extras because we don't trust ourselves, when we really make "the extra couple" with the hopes the first two will turn out perfect, and we can use the second two for the next engine, right?  Your mate did you well with that set of silver soldered blanks, and the valve looks good, I expect you'll be up and running before you know it.  Looking very good, and very nice detailing in the build log, can't wait to hear her run. :lol:  I was thinking, maybe the cam gear ought to be faced out, so you can look at the cam and gear while it's running.  I was just going over some of the earlier posts, just to remember details, and I thought that gear and cam looked good sitting there out in the open.  :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 25, 2011, 03:49:03 PM
Well really feel for the first time like I`m getting somewhere now!

I have finished the valve except the springs - need to sort those out as currently they are just 2 random springs I found just to hold it all together.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webvalve1.jpg)

And I managed to get an M10 tap with a fine pitch for the spark plug and so far, assembled it looks like this:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/webvalve2.jpg)

So now I need to decide where to go next! I`m going to go with a vapour carb but I don`t know if I should go with the ignition system next - there are no instructions with this one from China so I haven`t a clue what to do with it!! What power supply do I need?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: j45on on April 25, 2011, 03:50:48 PM
Looking good Chris  :bow:
That will be a runner soon
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on April 25, 2011, 03:57:01 PM
 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: now that looks like an engine Chris  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:



Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 25, 2011, 04:06:01 PM
Cheers guys.

Rob, you told me to get my finger out so thought I better have a few hours on it :D
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on April 25, 2011, 04:22:25 PM
Nice  :bow: :bow: :bow:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 25, 2011, 05:34:15 PM
Thanks again for your comments chaps. Time for a few more questions. I think I spoke a little early in my last post regarding the electronic ignition. I`ve just got it all out and taken some pictures and now I definately have a few questions.

So this is what is in the packet - no instructions!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/sensor1.jpg)

You can see a much bigger image here: http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/copysensor1.JPG although to be honest, the quality is still poor!

So for a start the unit says working voltage 4.8 - 6V so I presume I could use a 4 AA battery holder for a 6V output? This will obviously connect to the red and black lead from the ignition unit.

So the other thing I can see is of course the little sensor. There is also a little black plastic holder. Now I`m going to look an idiot here but is this a holder for the sensor?  I don`t know if I`d want to use this, I think I`d quite like just a little brass tube which the sensor sticks out of the top, but for now is this at least what the black plastic holder is for?

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/sensor2.jpg)

So the ignition module comes with some things for the alternative spark plug shown in the first image. Removing these, I`m left with the following components of which I haven`t a clue what any are for!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/sensor3.jpg)

Any idea what any of these are for?



So far I can`t see a magnet to trigger the sensor - do I just need a standard neobidium magnet? 

0.5mm or a bit small: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/50-tiny-neodymium-disk-magnets-2-x-0-5-mm-magic-craft-/130471479669?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&hash=item1e60b4c975
or perhaps 1mm http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/100-Neodymium-round-disc-magnets-1-x-1-mm-magic-craft-/130471479278?pt=UK_Collectables_MagicTricks_RL&hash=item1e60b4c7ee 

As far as I understand, when a magnet is flashed past the sensor the plug will spark. I can guess how to test the system, but could someone clarify this for me? Is it as simple as hooking it all up, getting a good earth on the plug and literally holding and magnet and moving it past the sensor ?  :scratch:

Also how near does the magnet need to run past the sensor?

Sorry, lots of questions... I didn`t actually think I read instructions but without them, on this one I`m lost!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 26, 2011, 05:50:13 PM
Well I got no replies and I was in the mood to have  a bash this evening and I`m chuffed. The ignition system sparks the plug  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

I did just what I had outlined above, moved a magnet (the base of a DTI stand!) over the senser and  :zap: 

Next job is to get it mounted.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on April 27, 2011, 08:37:03 PM
Hi Chris, I don't know anything about that particular ignition, but most hall effect sensors want one or the other end of the magnet to trigger it.  You might want to check since your magnetic indicator holder has both poles.  Good to hear you got sparks already :ddb: :lol:  Looking good :headbang: :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 28, 2011, 08:08:38 PM
Hi Madjack, as always, thanks for your reply. I`ve got a little further with the engine, infact I have made the magnet holder which connects to the crank. I also ordered some 3mm magnets yesterday which arrived today so I put it all together for a quick test. The video isn`t great, but I`m pleased that it is sparking!!  :headbang: The sensor is just strapped to that steel bar for a temporary fix, it is going to be held through a brass tube or similar.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/tanker5.jpg)



I also started work on Jan Ridders vapour carb. I couldn`t find any brass tube at a decent price and when I went to my local scrappy yesterday, I picked up the solid bar end for less than I would have paid for a length of tube.

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/tanker1.jpg)

Since I don`t have any silver solder (will pick some up at the Harrogate Show), I wanted to keep any soldering to a minimum. Rather than bore a tube and then cap it, I figured I may as well leave one end solid.  Here it is part way through machining.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/tanker2.jpg)

Jan suggests 45mm inside diameter, the only glass disc I could get my hands on was 50mm!
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/tanker4.jpg)

And then finally machined down some more and also the recess made for the glass disk - the glass disk which is the fuel tank viewing window is actually in position in the photo, so looks good and a nice fit! I`m a bit worried about sticking it in place and getting a good seal!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/tanker3.jpg)


I have left it in the state of the last picture. I need to sleep on the next step and would appreciate any advice. I would quite like to machine a larger diameter at the ends, a bit like if I had capped it and had an overhang on the cap. The only way I can see I can do this is if I use some sort of stub mandrel and taper it to go into the bore, then machine the outer diameter all from that. It just seems a large bore to attempt this with.

The other thought is with holding it, i.e a base or stand for the tank. Does anyone know if there is any sort of height restriction, I guess the fuel level should be lower than the cylinder bottom or does it really not matter? I could make two little stands to sit it on like Jan or I was thinking about soldering a bar into the bottom of the tank, tapping the bottom of the bar and then screwing it down from under the base.

The third option was with so much material, to mill a flat on the bottom of the tank and just sit it on the base!! Seems a shame removing so much brass (£££££  :doh:) but then I think it looks a bit large when sat next to my model, especially with my small ally base.

Hummm, any thoughts?

EDIT:
and I`ve been thinking about fuel for a while now and was going to get some colemans but after the discussion today by John-som I ended up trying to find some Aspen 2T alkylate petrol ready-mixed (2%)
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4838.msg53742#new
 
My dad actually said he has some colemans so I can try both without spending any more. Only problem is, I couldnt get a small bottle!!!

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/asp.jpg)

So if anyone is at Harrogate on the Saturday and fancies trying a few litres for a couple of quid let me know as I expect I`ll not go through this bottle dispite its apparent 25 year shelf life.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on April 29, 2011, 04:29:03 AM
Well done Chris, it's looking great and sparking! What's the compression like with the valves in place? Sounds like it's nearly ready!  :thumbup:  :bow:

Did you go with 4 AA's in the end? The only thing you might find is that they don't last that long, but you could just use some C batteries instead in that case.

Not heard of that fuel before. All looking promising, glad you went for the vapour carb, they seem so fuss free from every build log I've read. Are you doing the latest version? I think the valve was simplified, I think Chuck discovered a simpler way on his Henry Ford engine.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on April 29, 2011, 04:38:51 AM
Hi Nick, yes, it is based on Jan Ridders newest "Universal" vapour carb. The valve is massively simplified, so much so that I think I can give it a good go! I`m just not yet sure how to seat the fuel tank. It`ll be a little bigger OD than Jan's design due to the thicker solid body on mine. I`m strongly considering milling a flat on the bottom and just having it seated directly on the base!!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 01, 2011, 04:32:32 AM
Following on from the last pictures ...

I turned the OD of fuel tank / vapour carb down to make a nice looking brass cup :D
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap1.jpg)

The top air intake is two piece. An M10 tapped insert soldered into place to allow filling of the tank and then a screwed insert for the air intake reducing the air intake to an 3mm hole tube. The shoulder of the insert is contoured on the shoulder to allow it to sit nicely on the tank. I couldn`t for the life of me think how to do this and so a friend and fellow madmodder suggested a two piece design, where a washer is used as part of the shoulder and the washer filed and sanded to shape. This worked really well but I would be interested to know how this could be made from 1 piece as per the plans
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap2.jpg)

The fuel/vapour outlet tube was then made...not the best photo but all the parts here are ready for soldering..
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap3.jpg)

My sophisticated soldering setup...the cooker top.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap4.jpg)

And then all polished up... I`m really pleased with it! I just need to make the main air intake insert and the nut which covers the additional air intake on the threaded outlet, glue on the glass viewing window and put it on a stand and then I`m done. Getting there...!  

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap5.jpg)


I believe I`ll need a one way valve as a must as well, so they will be the next things to make.


Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on May 02, 2011, 01:50:42 AM
Looking good Chris  :thumbup:

You're machining skills are really coming on.

Stew

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 02, 2011, 03:34:11 AM
Nice work Chris, your question about how to mount it made be think straight away (too late for yours), is there any reason you can't have the tank vertical?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 02, 2011, 12:15:10 PM
There is no need for a one way valve with the webster.  The intake valve only opes with negative pressure from the cylinder, so, if there is any backfire, it will slam the valve shut and keep it out of the tank.  The only issue I have had with the otto and the vapor carb was timing the intake valve correctly, but that is not an issue with this design.

Looks EXCELLENT!!!!  All the way around.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 02, 2011, 06:39:29 PM
Hi guys...

Stew - cheers. I must admit, the last month or so, I`m feeling much more confident. I still make too many silly errors in my thinking and planning which I follow through to the machine(you know, think of something the wrong way around and then machine the wrong side for example), but my actual machining skills are getting better, parts are looking good and are more accurate. John mentioned much earlier in this thread that I seem to be taking my time more and that is definately true. I still need to take more time in my planning (but with little free time I`m eager to get onto the machines!) but that being said, I am more relaxed in my approach. I`ve always been eager to try and get my engines finished just so I can say they are, but now I seem to have calmed down and happy to take my time. That being said, the last few days I`ve become twitchy in the run-up for the first fireup of this engine!!!

Nick, not sure how it would work vertical. The viewing window shows your tank level and also shows the nice "bubbling" or disturbing of the fuel created by the air intake. Also, I`m guessing here, but I expect these vapour carbs work better with a larger surface area of fuel (more evaporation) ???? and I expect vertical it would reduce the surface area. I`m sure it could be done vertically with some thought!

Doug - got your message too late  :(  I`ve just come up from the workshop after a few hours of building the one way valve. Damn annoyed to hear I didn`t need it but I read on HMEM that for the Webster engine I would. Your explanation as to why I didn`t need one makes perfect sense as it was my thoughts as well but I just listened to the advice that has been given on HMEM!!
To be honest, looks damn good and certainly looks the part attached to the valve block. I`m very chuffed with it! In fact, so much so, that I`m considering sneeking into the bedroom to get my camera out of my draw, but sha'n't for fear of waking my wife and getting a thump. I`ll post some tomorrow.

Thanks again for your interest and replies.      
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on May 03, 2011, 01:52:14 AM
Chris,

As they say, patience is a virtue.

Thinking things thru and taking your time is the first major step in producing good results.

You have a choice, rushing things and still ending up with a lump of junk after a couple of goes at the same thing, or just taking your time and getting it right first time.

I work very slowly and only when I consider it right to work on a specific part. I force myself not to attempt to try to make difficult pieces just because it has to be done. If I feel in a good frame of mind, then I go for the hard stuff, if I don't, then I just make easy bits until I feel I am ready to tackle the difficult parts. I will also put down half finished items if I start to think it is getting a bit too much, and come back to it later.

You are proving not only to us, but to yourself as well, you CAN make great pieces when you put your mind to it. Do that with each part you make, and you will then be in the same league as many of the other people whom you admire for their workmanship.

ONE GOOD PART AT A TIME.


Keep it up.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 03, 2011, 06:59:19 AM
Chris, good point about the surface area ... which made me do more thinking! If it does have much bearing on the running, keeping it vertical could be an advantage - the surface area will be constant as the fuel runs down, where as with it on its side it will start off small and peak when half full then diminish again.

Don't know how long the tank is, but if it's 50mm diameter for arguments sake and it looks about 75 long? If that's the case, the max surface area with it horizontal will be 3750mm^2. With it vertical it would be 1963mm^2 but constantly - surely that means less adjustment would be required and it will get a similar fuel / air ratio until the tank is run out?

Having said all of that, I'm not sure how much effect it really has because all the ones I've seen have the tank horizontal and run very well! Something for me to try when I do mine ...

Nice work, getting close now!!

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 03, 2011, 07:04:41 AM
John, you are correct, it is easy sometimes to get over excited want to try and build the entire engine in an hour. I`m getting there.

Well here are the pics. It all still needs a good polish.

Starting off with finishing the fuel tank. The images previous didn`t include the intake tube insert or the air intake adjuster nut..

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway15.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway13.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway10.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway11.jpg)

Is that enough...or perhaps one more?   :lol:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway12.jpg)



Then I went on to make the little one way ball valve as per Jan Ridders plans:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway1.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway2.jpg)

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/oneway3.jpg)


I`m getting close...I can almost smell the fumes. I`m joking as I know for a fact this won`t run  :doh:

Infact, other than an exhaust pipe which I presume I don`t need to test it, I think that is everything other than a mounting block for the sensor!!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 03, 2011, 07:08:51 AM
Nick, you made your post while I was posting an update. Yes, it is a good point! I`m not too sure how or if you would put a viewing window in  a vertical tank, also the air inlet stream needs to blow down on the fuel to create the vapour. Jans first design was the bubble carb, where the fuel actually bubbled through the fuel. This seems like a really great way to vapourise the fuel so I`m not too sure why he changed it. With this new version, the tank is only filled about half full and the pipe intentially does not go below the fuel level. It is an interesting concept the vapour carb, I just hope it works for me :D 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 03, 2011, 09:50:23 AM
Thanks Ken. My parts a looking better but I`m a long way off your standard  :dremel:


I guess we`ll hopefully find out how well it runs in the next few nights!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 03, 2011, 10:02:53 AM
Nick, you made your post while I was posting an update. Yes, it is a good point! I`m not too sure how or if you would put a viewing window in  a vertical tank, also the air inlet stream needs to blow down on the fuel to create the vapour. Jans first design was the bubble carb, where the fuel actually bubbled through the fuel. This seems like a really great way to vapourise the fuel so I`m not too sure why he changed it. With this new version, the tank is only filled about half full and the pipe intentially does not go below the fuel level. It is an interesting concept the vapour carb, I just hope it works for me :D  

Your valve and tank look excellent.  One thing that my grandfather always told me...  got gas, got spark, got to go...

Not that I am an expert in the intricacies of the vapor carb, but I do have 30-40 hours perfecting my two incarnations.  The first one was based upon pictures of Jan's tank that I used on the webster with the threaded sleeve that covered the hole in the intake tube.  It works very well and little adjustment is needed to keep it running.  You will find that you do not want to fill the tank over half because it will slosh around a bit when running and raw fuel will get sucked into the intake and flood the engine.  Jan and I have been emailing about a better design that has the intake port coming out of the top of the tank instead of the side and that will prevent 99% of this problem and it looks like in some of his new videos that is exactly what he is now doing.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5498609084_be33cba8e7.jpg)

For the Otto I went with a completely new design that works extraordinarily well.  The entire tank is see through (glass) and the metering valve is a simple bolt that covers the air bypass hole to adjust the mixture.  This could EASILY be tilted upright to make a vertical tank. Once the super volatile fumes are burned off (30 seconds of running),  the engine only need minor adjustments to keep it at any RPM I would like it to be, from 700 RPM all the way to 5400 RPM.  ALSO...  there are two ways to control the idle revs; one is to make it too lean (less gas) by adding more air and the second is to close the air valve off and make it too rich (more gas).  The first method is less sensitive and the idle stays pretty constant throughout the entire tank (30 minutes of running).  One drawback is when it leans out, it runs hotter quicker, but it does not stink as much as when it is too rich and puffing out unburnt fuel.  Only when you get to the very bottom of the tank when only the crud remains is it harder to keep it at a particular RPM.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.msg50253#msg50253

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5294/5519603589_3c207e0fb1.jpg)

You will also find that the air does not have to hit the fuel to make a vapor.  The vibrations of the motor disturb the fuel enough to make good vapor.  I had a tube that went to the bottom of the tank on the webster and it just made it slosh around more, not helping the vapor mix in the slightest.

Looks great, and as long as the valves seal well and you have sealed the valve block to the engine completely, it will run without a doubt!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on May 03, 2011, 10:19:52 AM
Hi Chris,  great looking set of parts you've got, you must be very close to running, and I'm getting a lot out of the questions and answers on the vapor carb which help, as I expect to be using one soon.  It makes perfect sense that you're getting enough vapor from vibration and sloshing, particularly with a small, single cylinder engine, and I would think if you needed more vapor action, the intake through fuel would be good, and you could use a "dome", as in a steam boiler, to prevent liquid from sloshing up into the intake if you ended up powering a traction machine with this engine or something of the like.  One of the things I like most about the vapor carbs is the fact you get to see what's happening inside, and can alter and adjust for what is visible, and not just guessed at.  I've put the equivalent of a "dome" in a gas tank for a motorcycle, to allow a sealed fuel cap, and still have a good working venting system which won't pour fuel when sloshed, and with a tube sticking up from the tank, the bottom 3/4 in of a CO2 cartridge over it, and a couple of holes drilled around the tube, which is soldered to the tank on the top, where it enters the "dome", and soldered at the bottom where it goes through the tank and vents down under the bike with a bit of hose, it works well as a vent, and keeps gas from venting on the paint, ruining the paint, as if that were an important issue.  I'm glad you chose to put a couple of blocks for a base, I didn't want to see you machine flats on the bottom of the brass, it looks real fine the way you did it. :ddb: :beer:  Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 03, 2011, 10:37:07 AM
Hi Madjack - Yes, the base is just a temporary fix, I`m still not thrilled, I think perhaps they need profiling a little more just to give them a nice look. That can come later! Vapour carb sure does look good, I hope it runs as well!


Doug, interesting post you made! Have you got any advice regarding the timing? I`ve been reading over the build notes and I`m trying to make sense of it!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 03, 2011, 10:46:18 AM
Chris,

car engines usually fire at around 10deg before top dead centre. You might not need it as advanced as that so I'd prob just experiement starting from a couple of degrees ... that's degrees on the main crank, so the spark should occur a few degrees before top dead centre (compression stroke, both valves closed) what do the notes say?

That's assuming you meant ignition timing!

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 03, 2011, 11:09:36 AM

Doug, interesting post you made! Have you got any advice regarding the timing? I`ve been reading over the build notes and I`m trying to make sense of it!

Chris

There are two timings to consider:

The exhaust cam has to be timed to open about 20 degrees before bottom dead center on the power stroke and then close just after top dead center on the end of the exhaust stroke (to prevent blowback in to the carb from pressure in the cylinder).  You can adjust this duration by moving teeth on the cam gear and by adjusting the clearance between the exhaust valve and the tappet on the rocker arm.  It is not an exact science (a little different for all engines) and does not have to be PREFECT to get it to run, but once you have it running, you can fine tune it with small adjustments to get it to run smoother and idle better and run at higher RPM's.  The plans for the webster have what worked for his engine, but mine are a few degrees different due to manufacturing tolerances.  After weeks of fine tuning and tweaking I got mine to idle at about 600-700 consistently run at close to 5000 RPM wide open, but I do not recommend that because it could all go terribly wrong very quickly with parts flying at you at the speed of sound...   :zap:

The other timing is the ignition timing.  This to does not have to be exact to get it to run, but you will find that if you fire the spark about 10 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke, it will run throughout the entire range of RPM's very well.  On the Webster, I use ignition timing to control RPM in addition to the mixture on the tank.  It is like a 1903 Harley with 15 different adjustment on the handle bars to keep it running perfectly.

With your electronic ignition (very envious of this by the way...) make sure you have fine adjustment as a degree or two will make a difference in how well it idles and revs up.  also, the electronic ignition should allow you to idle it down to 200-300 RPM once it is running and tuned in.  It looks like your magnet is on a cylinder that has some set screws so you can move the magnet to the exact right place, so this should not be a problem.  You can set the initial timing by eye by just looking at the position of the connecting rod big bearing.  When the connecting rod is parallel to the base of the engine, you are at bottom dead center and top dead center respectively. If you have a strobe timing light for a car, this will make timing easier.  There is a video of timing the Otto in the build log, the webster is done the same way.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.msg49931#msg49931

I would recommend getting a one way bearing from an RC starter (most are 6 mm) and use a drill to turn the engine over when tuning it...  if not, don't get discouraged if you have to wind the string over 100 times before you hear the first pop and even longer to get it to run perfectly.  The physics are there and the design is very forgiving, so it WILL run...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41crD5P7jEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/One-Way-Bearing-Recoil-Starter-G-27CX/dp/B000X4Q2GY

I am very excited for you!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 03, 2011, 11:43:58 AM
I went to start my modern lawnmower with briggs and stratton engine the other day and honestly thought it wasn't going to! Took about 20 or more pulls of the starter! As doug said, if you've got those few vital ingredients it should run but they can still be tempremental so keep trying if it doesn't go first time!!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 04, 2011, 07:31:58 PM
Well no such luck as yet  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :bang: :bang: :bang:

I have had a few "pops" so clearly fuel is getting into the cylinder but I can`t see the valve being pulled down due to the negative pressure of the cylinder. On models I have seen, you can visibly see the valve twitching down. Now before you see it, I went to an amazing place after work today just on my door step - Pennine Springs, thousands and thousands all hand made. Anyway, after about 30 minutes of searching I got a selection - I currently have the softest on, which is incredibly loose. It is enough to seal the valve but should definately be week enough to allow the intake valve to be sucked open - at present I just can`t see it happening.

I`ll keep it at tomorrow. Just before I had to leave the workshop because it was getting late, I could hear the spark plug randomly sparking. This had NOT been happening through the evening so I don`t know what is causing this and hope it stops tomorrow.

I think I need a drill mechanism as recommended to get it going. Winding the string isn`t helping and I think it needs a longer more consistent start. I honestly think it went for a few cycles a couple of times .... at least it isn`t totally dead!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 04, 2011, 07:47:26 PM
SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  way to go.. you are just about there!

A few things...

You can't really see the intake valve moving until it gets going good. 

when you have fresh fuel in the tank, it has to to wide open with air bypass (depending on how big the hole is.)

set the ignition timing at top dead center as it will be harder to start advanced.

check compression by turning it over by hand.  on the compression stroke it should be very difficult to get past the compression stroke.

did you use the oring?  it will help if you didn't...

double check the exhaust valve timing...  make sure it is closing fully before the intake stroke starts. 

Doug

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on May 05, 2011, 01:43:35 AM
Hi chris
I try to make sure the exhaust valve opens just before bottom dead center and is closed before top dead center
if your ignition is set at about top dead center then try to start with the fuel needle only open half a turn,but u will need to change this even if it does start.
Pete :beer:
opps different carb lol
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 05, 2011, 04:25:26 AM
sounds very promising Chris, well done.  I was wondering whether you'd put the o ring on or not. :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 05, 2011, 05:46:20 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I put an O-ring on and I have to admit, it made a difference. I cut the groove a little deeper than I calculated as it was just binding a bit too much.

When I put the engine together, I put the piston in the cylinder and spark plug on the end. I couldn`t compress the cylinder with my finger over the hole in the cylinder head. Likewise it hurt my finger sucking on it when I pulled the piston out. I`ve definately got a good cylinder/piston seal.

I put the valve all together again and actually gave it a bit more of a grind in its seat. Sucking by mouth through the valve block with the springs in position doesn`t let any air through so I`m sure the valves have an excellent seal. (Before I gave it the extra grind I think there was a little air getting through one of the valves).  The valve block is perfectly flat and I`ve used a small amount of hylotyte red between the head and valve block - only a small amount but just something to seal it for sure.

I`ve also remade the flywheel. The steel one, although with a lovely hub was not heavy enough. This cast one seems much better. I used Johns suggestion of tapping through small holes between the cast iron outer rim and the brass centre hub, screwing into these and then facing the heads flat. This was a super idea and has locked the hub in position for sure.

I can hear the spark plug, like I said, I had an issue with some seemingly random sparking last night which I`ll investigate later but hopefully it has stopped :(  I think I need a connection between the engine base and the electronics box to ensure that the spark isn`t tempted to jump across to the outer sleeve of the spark plug cap rather than sparking at the cap.

It all seems good to me and with Doug telling me that I won`t necessarly see the top spring moving until it gets going then I`m more confident.

My only issue is that when packing away last night, I got a small drop of fuel in the pipe. Turning the engine over by hand, you can see the fuel moving up towards the valve block (cylinder) by the suction of the piston moving out on the intake stroke but it also moves back a little during the compression stroke and even a little on the exhaust stroke. I don`t know if I should worry about this, I thought the valve should be shut during the compression or exaust stroke and so the fuel shouldn`t go back down the line...then again only a tiny tiny change in pressure would cause this to happen.

I can only presume it is my timing and as I said earlier, I need to start it with a drill for testing rather than a pull string.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 05, 2011, 09:13:16 AM
Excellent!  I would not worry so much about the drop of fuel if when you have the valve block installed you can feel compression.  you will not need a ton of compression to get it running.

The nice thing about using a drill is you can check the spark timing with a timing light.  They are not very expensive and good to have in the tool box for the bigger machines as well.  You should be able to find one at any auto parts store and even Wal-mart or the big discount stores have them.

(http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/BrNfVOraCKIBCeR3FBc1kfnQ_PGtuyae0f_NHeutZs5KoQkODz8LL-Z1QgUK4oo4AUztX8V1C2FPOdPK6x3XamiZR7XQaBXFWq5wXA65FKDaJDQFJYIDB7yX7q8jAkKA90EmW1w-8hzpEH1cxkfhDTjl2NE7K67YrcLU5jwgtvivpebqvIja)
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=timing+light&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=14281284705065655206&sa=X&ei=xaHCTbDpFYKltwfvovXWBA&ved=0CHAQ8gIwAw#

you are right there!  don't hit it with a hammer just yet...

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on May 05, 2011, 09:55:57 AM
Hi Chris, we, a friend and I, just got his 51 Harley chopper project running after three years of work building.  It took two weeks of troubleshooting the engine before it actually started, and the brand new electronic ignition with single fire was the problem with the wires not liking the installation and being moody to the point of being replaced with a new distributor, one with a better reputation for reliability.  The engine started right up then.  When You've got fuel, compression, and spark at the right time, it will run.  They are always finicky when fresh, although you don't have to deal with oil getting past un-seated rings.  There's always little things which sort of have to get acquainted with each other before they work and play well with each other.  By the way, the "clutch needle bearing" is available from various bearing suppliers in different sizes and is reasonable in price and easy to get one to fit most standard shaft sizes.  Can't wait to see the running video, when everything's sorted out.  :beer: Cheers, Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 05, 2011, 10:25:25 AM
One thing about the clutch bearing...  the shaft needs to be hardened or at least tough steel as the bearing will tend to dig in over time.  I hardened mine by heating it to cherry red with a torch and then dipping it in used motor oil until cool.  makes a stinky plume of grey smoke, so do it outside, but should harden the outside of the shaft enough to not allow damage by the bearing.  It has to be used so the carbon suspended in the oil bonds to the steel and thus makes it hard (that is what they say anyway...)

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: spuddevans on May 05, 2011, 11:35:27 AM
I have no words of advice to offer, just to say that I'm sure that you'll get it running before too long. Stick with it, eliminating one thing at a time, and soon enough you will hear the magic come alive.


Great job  :thumbup: :thumbup:


Tim
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 05, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
In the short term you can just stick a drill straight onto the shaft until you start hearing pops.  It wont run because the drill will keep it from spinning up, but it will pop and you can adjust the fuel mixture.  Try it as lean as you can and work your way to rich (fully open then to closed on the mixture nut)

You can also just put your finger over the hole every few seconds to enrich the mixture until it starts popping.  You will know it when you hear it...

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 06, 2011, 04:07:29 AM
Hi Chaps

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

I spent a while last night playing with it and first pull got a good few pops from it. Then nothing.

Suction is fantastic - there is compression on the compression stroke and that force on the piston is removed in the exhaust stroke (i.e the valves are working good). I`m confident everything about the cylinder and valve was fine.

I`d spent a long time playing with the timing because I concluded this must be the issue. Fiddled with it, I gave it a kick start and it popped again. Tried it again and nothing.


The crank was the first part that I`ve ever silver soldered. In retrospect I didn`t get it hot enough but it had joined so I had left it. I was only 5 minutes away from giving up again for the evening that I realised the crank shaft was spinning in the two piece section I`d made! This was totally messing up all the timing. Clearly with the little silver solder in there it was a friction fit and so sometimes (especially slowly by hand) it was looking to turn but actually it was spinning and throwing out all the timings!

I`ve no silver solder so I`ve just ordered some on next day delivery. I`ll strip it down tonight again ready for soldering over weekend. I`m more confident now anyway! The issue comes when it doesn`t work tomorrow after re-soldering  :doh:  :lol:     I`m not giving up on this engine, I know compression is good, it is sparking, the flywheel is now good and heavy ... I`ve said in the last few posts that it must be timing and so my fingers are crossed. It also explains why I have the occasional pop. After being shown how to silver solder the two piece valves I`m confident I can get a good join on the crank shaft and that`ll be another step closer to a running engine.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on May 06, 2011, 07:28:29 AM
You'll get their Chris.

Now that you've been shown how to silver solder you'll now how to get it correct.

Good luck:--  put-put-put-put. thats the sound you will soon hear.  :D

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on May 06, 2011, 10:57:31 AM
Hi Chris, usually, the most frustrating part is finding the problem, and then it's just a matter of getting it right, and things look up.  I'm sure you'll be enjoying the putt putt very soon.  I'm looking forward to the video of it running it's little heart out. :beer: Cheers,  Jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 06, 2011, 12:55:38 PM
I keep dreaming of that noise  :dremel: thanks for your replies stew and mad jack

My thrust bearing arrived today. I admit I've never seen one before. There seems to be no way of clamping it to the shaft so I did some googling. Am I right in thinking that it isn't clamped to the shaft but actually tightens on the shaft when the locking mechanism kicks in. This would then link to your comment, Doug, of the shaft needing to be hardened. I purchased my one way bearing from a model shop and it has no dimensions on it. I'll experiment tonight but can anyone tell me, do I just turn the shaft diameter so the bearing just slides on? If this is the case I can imagine tolerances would be high or the bearing will slip?


Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 06, 2011, 08:03:32 PM
I keep dreaming of that noise  :dremel: thanks for your replies stew and mad jack

My thrust bearing arrived today. I admit I've never seen one before. There seems to be no way of clamping it to the shaft so I did some googling. Am I right in thinking that it isn't clamped to the shaft but actually tightens on the shaft when the locking mechanism kicks in. This would then link to your comment, Doug, of the shaft needing to be hardened. I purchased my one way bearing from a model shop and it has no dimensions on it. I'll experiment tonight but can anyone tell me, do I just turn the shaft diameter so the bearing just slides on? If this is the case I can imagine tolerances would be high or the bearing will slip?


Most likely it is going to be 6mm and have a 12mm nut on it.  You can use a socket in you drill to drive it.  I cut a little slot in the shaft and put an e clip on it to hold the bearing on.   You are correct... the tolerances have to be dead on or it won't grab. 

Can you do the same thing with the crank shaft that you did with the flywheel and drill and tap a hole between the shaft and the counter balance journal?

OR drill a hole and pin it?

Keep it up!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 07, 2011, 02:58:48 AM
Doug, it was just as you said. I turned a little test bar end down to 6mm and put the little bearing on. What an clever little gadget - I`d like to know how it works. Totally lets it free wheel in one direction but seems to clamp down on the bar and lock it in the other direction!!!

I think some things happen for a reason. With the crank shaft come away from the actual crank end, it was an ideal opportunity to turn about 10mm of the overhang I had purposely put on the crank for the reason, down to 6mm dia. I`ve also moved the sensor position to the other side as for some silly reason I`d put the sensor at the end of the crank shaft, now I`ve moved it to nearer the outer frame which looks better and is out of the way. Another silly thing I`d done was to have the magnet of the sensor on the same pull chord V pully. This meant that when pull starting it, I noticed I was actually moving the magnet a little and would have been throwing the timing out. So actually, I think this little modification has improved the design!

7:55am, I`m sat watching Peppa Pig with my daughter waiting for the postman to arrive with Silver Solder - then it`ll be "mummys" turn to get out of bed while I escape with a blow torch!  :dremel: :dremel:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bluechip on May 07, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Chris


One-way bearing ??? They're probably roller clutches. Quite common when I worked on printers etc.

ARC do 'em, amongst others.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Bearings/Needle-Roller-Clutches

Dave BC
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 07, 2011, 03:58:05 AM
I use the ARC ones instead of ratchets on my lubricators ( loco ) as they are scale wakefield ones they are tiny ( not as small as the minnie one Stew ) use two one on the body and one in the arm


one point the have a plastic of some kind to support the rollers and they can melt if abused



Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on May 07, 2011, 06:17:18 AM
Hi Craynerd
good luck with the silver solder
its on my to do list :)
Pete
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 07, 2011, 08:30:09 AM
Silver solder arrived, got a rollocking of the wife for soldering on the cooker top. But the job went very well!

Another hour spent on it, a good few pops but never at all feeling like it's going to go.  :( soon to be free to a good home  :palm:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 07, 2011, 09:09:37 AM
Silver solder arrived, got a rollocking of the wife for soldering on the cooker top. But the job went very well!

Another hour spent on it, a good few pops but never at all feeling like it's going to go.  :( soon to be free to a good home  :palm:


Get it close:
exhaust opening 20 degrees before bottom dead center
timing firing at the top of the compression stroke
vapor carb wide open

close the hole in the carb slowly wile spinning it

then small adjustments

This is the home stretch!

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: madjackghengis on May 07, 2011, 11:21:15 AM
Hi Chris,  remember, fuel, air, compression, and ignition, and fire.  Most modern engines idle with firing between five and ten degree before top dead center.  I you have all those things, it will run, the vapor carb means you'll have good fuel air mixture, you know you've got compression, and the only question is when it's firing.  I don't know about all hall effect pickups, but some are sensitive to a particular pole, and if you use the other, they fire on the magnet leaving the scene, not entering, and can have your timing off by the width of the magnet.  If you're not sure, take a disc of cardboard or a degree wheel if you have one, and rotate the engine until the plug fires, noting where it is by having a pointer near the edge of the disc or degree wheel, and figure out when you're firing.  If you're using a piece of cardboard, mark where the firing happens, and mark TDC, and then put the cardboard on your rotary table or something like it and figure out the degrees.  This will easily show up if you have pole sensitive pickup, if it's firing way late, it's probably firing on the magnet leaving and can easily cause the popping without getting it to run.  Each engine has its own personal preferences too, so they can want things a bit more advanced or retarded than standard, or be a bit easy to flood and the like.  Make sure you've got a wet plug when you've been at it a bit, or it's not getting fuel.  I used to squirt a smidge of lighter fluid in the plug hole of engines that didn't want to start, just to make sure they were getting fuel, and the same can be done with starting fluid.  Sometimes an engine just needs a demonstration, 'cause it doesn't know what it's supposed to do, and getting it to fire on lighter fluid will give it the idea, and get it going, and understanding what's demanded of it.  Watch your con rod as you rotate the engine through, you'll see the last eight or ten degrees before top dead center doesn't move the piston much at all, nor does the first eight or ten degrees, so advance on the cam is essential, because it needs to start lifting while the piston's not doing much of anything, so that part of the rotation isn't wasted, and the cam action being in the middle part, where all the work's being done.  Your valve should be fully lifted by five or ten degrees after BDC, and bear in mind, oil on the intake valve face or seat can be enough to keep the valve from lifting off at low speed, and keep fuel air from getting in, particularly if you've been getting pops, meaning fire in the hole, and making for more sticky oil.  That's when a squirt of lighter fluid ensures you've got fuel and air through the plug hole.  I spent many hours with various small engines thrown out, and fodder for my learning as a boy, and the lighter fluid was a good diagnostic tool.  If one of your valves is not seating fully, you will see fire out it, if you have lighter fluid ensuring you have fuel, and a slightly unseated valve will prevent the vacuum for the intake, while still providing compression, being fored to seat, and giving a false sense of seating well.  Sometimes it can be easy to forget when you get frustrated, when everything is right, they always run, period.  I kick started my bike for almost five hours changing ignition, timing, two carburetors, changing from points to electronic and back, and finally got it started, ran it for a couple weeks running horribly, finally discovering Harley changed their timing marks during the years I was raising my kids, and I had it timed with the advance set on top dead center, and got it to run, and ride there.  Once I got the timing right, it's been a one kick starter, but it was running with the timing more than thirty degrees retarded.  When everything is happening at the right time the right way, it will run and run great, the only question is niggling little details and the ease we can over-look those.  Ta ta for now,  :beer:  Cheers, jack
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 07, 2011, 01:04:17 PM
it ran!!!!!     :ddb:

It Ran !!!!      :ddb:

IT RAN !!!!     :ddb:

 :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

Well I listened to all your advice. I setup as you said Doug and then I checked the timing of the sensor Madjack which did seem to "fire" just after the magnet end had passed. I altered the timing and after a few minutes I started getting some explosions that were forcing the cylinder out - proper bangs (it didn`t actually seem quite right!!) I then tweeked the mix and it kicked it up again with the drill and it took over the bearing - I removed the drill and off it popped for about  15- 20 cycles!

Then it died and now I can`t start it again, not even get the explosions.  :doh: :lol:

But the point is it ran and with it doing that, with a bit of tweeking, more troubleshooting at least I know it WILL RUN!!

Thanks for all your help and advice.  :mmr: :mmr:

I don`t have an lighter fuel so I`ll pop out and get some later as I think this might be helpful to get it going. I`m wondering if at low revs (i.e starter drill) the valve is opening enough.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: arnoldb on May 07, 2011, 01:21:01 PM
Now that's really great news Chris  :D :D - Many Congratulations  :beer:!

Kind regards, Arnold
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 07, 2011, 01:40:32 PM
Well done Chris - you know it will work now, surely just a matter of tweaking to find the sweet spot! Well chuffed!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on May 07, 2011, 05:23:29 PM
Great news Chris  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I hope we will get to see the video soon  :)


Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 07, 2011, 05:34:35 PM
Cheers Guys - yes I can go to sleep happy that it does run. Getting it going again and reliably will be another thing!  I`ll check back in with updates when it is actually doing something worth showing :D :lol:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: j45on on May 07, 2011, 05:40:07 PM
Nice one Chris  :ddb: I knew it would run
I cant wait for the video though  :poke:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 07, 2011, 06:50:24 PM
Hi Jason, Yes, I hope a video comes soon but my excitement has calmed a little with no further progress in the hour or so I`ve had free this evening.

I wasn`t going to post anything again until I had troubleshooted and got it running well but there seems to be a trend appearing and before I go fiddling, I was wondering if it suggested anything?

When I posted earlier I had just nipped down to the workshop to give it a go before tea. It run quite early on in the session and then progressively got worse. I`ve since been down to the workshop twice this evening, both times the engine kicked up and gave me a good little run of 20 ish cycles (OK, not a run but it clearly kicked in and started!), start up again a few coughs and tried to run a few cycles. Kick it up again and nothing but dead infrequent pops. I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed) and exactly the same trend - run for a good 10-20 seconds, second attempt tried to run a few cycles at a time and then since then just pops and coughs.


I`m just curious trying to think what it could be. Other than leaving it for an hour there doesn`t seem to be anything I can do to get it to run again! I thought I was flooding the engine but I just dried the spark plug and it wasn`t really wet.

My only other thought is a worrying one! I`m leaving the petrol tank connected to the engine whilest it is sitting. Could the fuel vapour possibly be moving up the line while it is sitting so when I initially come to the engine it is running on the fuel evaporated up the line or does a few turns of the crank clear the line anway? I`m still concerned the intake valve isn`t working OK but then again, if it wasn`t working I would be getting any firing like I can hear.

Madjack, I`ve tried your method of lighter gas and I get a few more pops but it doesn`t seem to kick it in to any more life :(



Hummm puzzling.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 07, 2011, 11:52:43 PM
you are the test bed for this ignition, so I am leaning that way...  are you by chance using rechargeable batteries?  They are only 1.2 volt, so it you have 3 of them its only 3.6v WAY not enough to recharge the caps in the ignition module. 4 is still only 4.8 v...  still probably a bit light..  4 fresh AA's will give you 6v which is right where it should be from what I have found on the internet...

Don't make big adjustments right now...  you are really close and all the valves and mechanicals are good enough to run.

Might want to try a little squirt of wd-40 in the cylinder every once and a while to keep the oring lubed.

I keep fuel in my tank for weeks on the Otto and the Webster and I can pull them off the mantle and one pull they will start right up, so I would not worry about that...

Maybe try some real gas sometime.. far more volatile, so be careful.  I have found camping fuel works the best and does not sting NEARLY as bad.

Congrats on getting it to fire... now to get it to puuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Doug

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on May 08, 2011, 02:03:16 AM
Quote
I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed)

Yes I get that, don't know why  :scratch:,

Perhaps they'd understand if they had a shed.

 :lol:

  Good luck you,re nearly their, my record for getting an engine running is 3 weeks, so you've only another 2 weeks to go  :lol:

On a helpful note I seem to remember someone having similar problems with a vapor carb they put the problem down to the heat from the initial run effecting the vapor, fixed it by extending the length position of the input pipe, perhaps some of you more experienced IC guys can remember this and comment.

Stew



Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 08, 2011, 02:30:06 AM
I'm rooting for you Chris.  :thumbup:

So near.......   :D

David D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 08, 2011, 03:37:20 AM
Quote
I`ve just gone down now again before bed (wife is saying I`m obsessed)

Yes I get that, don't know why  :scratch:,

Perhaps they'd understand if they had a shed.

Scary thing is Stew, I honestly woke up at 6am with a bad dream that someone had stolen my workshop and a second dream that someone had fixed my engine - honestly!! I then went into my workshop from 6am to 7am obsessing about the engine again - no luck. I`ve got it bad -  :proj:  :proj:

Only just read all your replies, Stew I`ll try a longer tube from the vapour carb and see how it goes. I`m pleased that if you have taken 3 weeks getting an engine running, then I feel better now. If it was dead as a doornail I`d be worried but the fact that it has run means that something must be right.


Doug, I really do appreciate all the comments your making, your helping a lot. I`ve only just got your message regarding not making too many changes and must admit that I`ve dismantled the valve block this morning to clean it. I was worried it had oil on the valves like madjack mentioned.

Stilldrilling - thanks for the message. Fingers are crossed.


I`ve looked at a few Webster videos on youtube and there seems a little less friction on the cylinder than mine. Infact one one (I think Longboys) he spins it with his hand to start it and it fails to kick up on the first time but it does several revolutions on its own. There is a little too much friction on the piston with mine and also the compression on the "compression stroke" would also stop this from happening. I thought this was a good thing though tbh!



Chris

... like Stew said, with his 3 week record, I have another 2 weeks before I totally dispair!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bogstandard on May 08, 2011, 05:04:41 AM
You wouldn't believe how many working engines are sitting under benches waiting for the owner to gain the experience to actually get them running.

Flame lickers are a very good example, the flame in some cases only has to be 1mm out of position and they won't run. It will be exactly the same with your engine.

What you must NOT do is try to look at too many suspect areas at the same time. You can end up totally buggering everything up.

To me, from my experiences with ic engines a while back, it sort of points to carburation problems, the mixture is weakening off as the engine gets running. Most engines will run with a rich mixture, even eight stroking, but not with one that is too weak.


Bogs
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 08, 2011, 06:20:52 AM
Chris

What colour smoke if any do you get when it tries to run


if none it may be to lean , as it runs for a few revs does it speed up just before it stops , it may then have  been flooded while it stands and not getting any while it runs the few revs thus stopping


Just my 2 cents thinking on the key board


Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 08, 2011, 11:30:27 AM
Hi Chris, sounds like you're so close. Going back to what doug said, what are you powering it with? Do you have the required voltage? You'll need plenty of juice.

If you think friction may be too high that's an easy one to try. Just take the ring off, it's easy to do and reversible so worth a try for sure. If it doesn't solve it, nothing lost just put it back on.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 08, 2011, 04:24:34 PM
Hi Chaps,

Another 3 hour session and still nothing. Got a few explosions early in the first hour and then it ran for a few cycles, took over the started drill but then stopped.

To power it I`m using a variable votage power supply set at 6V but I also have a cell of 4 x AA batteries and I`ve been switching between the two - not that it is making any difference.


Stuart - smoke varies from not visable to white but there just seems to be no concistency. Like I tried to listen to Bogs advice and rather than adjust everything at once, try one area at a time to get best results and move on but there just isn`t pattern! So like I can turn the air intake on the vapour carb and get it popping, I can adjust it to get more consistent firing, it looks to be getting better and then all of a sudden stops - I don`t mean because it starts going the other way (getting worse), I can take it back to where it was good and nothing happens. There just doesn`t seem to be a pattern.

I tried what Stew said and have used a longer tube from the vapour carb.

I`m still not convinced with the valve block - I just noticed that on the compression stroke I`m getting blowback from the inlet like the valve isn`t sealing properly on the compression and exhaust stroke!! I opened up the valve block and just a simple test of blowing on the valve, you can`t get anything through so that puzzles me!  :doh:  I wondered if the spring is too weak and not holding the intake valve closed but then should the return pressure not force it closed? 
If this is the case, this would link in with Bogs idea that the fuel isn`t coming into the cylinder? There is some compression but maybe it is pusing some back down the line. The one way valve is helping stop this but clearly it shouldn`t be happening. I`ll have to investigate this tomorrow.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 12:20:59 AM
the ignition is a SUPER easy thing to rule out.  Get yourself a timing light and hook it up to the plug wire.  If it flashes when you turn it over with the drill, then you can eliminate it as having anything to do with it not running AND time it perfectly at the same time.

Don't put too much credit int he vapor carp inlet length.  It is not running long enough for that to matter.  Now granted, I do have both of my engines with rubber hose connecting the tanks, but the engine does not have the power to cause that problem that quick.. 5 minutes of running? maybe, but what you will probably find is the venturi action in the tank cools it so much, you can hardly touch it.  You might try eliminating the one way valve and going direct from carb to intake.  

Pull that oring off and try it now that you have the crank timing fixed.  It will run without it if you have a close mate piston to cylinder, but not as well as when it is seated properly, don't worry about what a video of an engine looks like after it has run 50 tanks of gas through it.  It will be super smooth and loose by then.

Did you put a gasket between the cylinder and head?  I cut a paper disk and put it the and it seals wonderfully.

With the spring issue...  as long as the exhaust is harder to press by hand than the intake, it will work.  The exhaust is mechanically timed and this has to be pretty close.  Visually make sure it is not closing too soon because if there is compression pressure in the cylinder, you will lose a ton of intake vacuum as the piston has to travel deep into the cylinder to neutralize the extra pressure left by the exhaust stroke.

action plan:

eliminate ignition problems with timing light (easy easy easy)  Try C cells if you have them or a 6v lantern battery (the big square one)  You can take the plug out and spin the engine with the drill to see if the plug keeps firing or dies out due to lack of battery

fuel is eliminated with vapor carb,  there is no problems there from the pics I have seen of yours completed (maybe check valve. as if you have a Strong spring there, then it will not open and suck in fuel.  it is not helping you to have it there....)

verify exhaust timing and spring pressure, intake softer than exhaust

verify compression, you should not be able to spin it over with moderate spin of flywheel, it should hit compression and spring back

verify exhaust timing... opening AND closing, better to stay open a few degrees too much than close a few degrees too early

you are right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it is ignition voltage or exhaust timing...  mostly ignition voltage... but could be the check valve...

Doug


Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 09, 2011, 03:21:57 AM
Chris

reading your reply and Doug's post

I am 99% sure that its the fuel tract  I think its not getting fuel into the cylinder constantly

When ( many year ago ) I played with IC engine's I developed a pressurised fuel system with a flat slide throttle body for a 3 1/2 cc glow motor these ran on 95% nitro  :) at 30 k rpm, to set these thing up as the pressure for the ann was from the exhaust they could not pull fuel at crank so a quick squirt done the air intake would run the motor for about 30 sec I used these on 1/8 scale racing cars ,ring life ( dykes ) was 1 hour  :( , but they won me a few cups for the mantle shelf

back to the issue to hand have you tried disconnecting the vapour tank set up , open the inlet valve and squirted some lighter fuel ( that I believe you have ) ? and see if it will start up most times using this method ,if it does then the problem may lie in the bit you have disconnected

Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 09, 2011, 04:34:44 AM
Chris,

A better way to check the air tightness of the system is to just take the piston out and try blowing into the end of the cylinder with the valves shut. Even better, if you could take the cylinder / valve block assembly off with spark plug, everything in place, submerge it in water, blow into the end of the cylinder and look for where any bubbles come from.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 05:12:00 AM
Hi guys, thanks for the continued advice. I`m at work today so will be trying your suggestions this evening and will reply as to how I get on.

Nick - this is what is confusing me! I have actually removed the spark plug and blown as hard as I can into the cylinder, nothing comes through the valves. They seem sealed - yet there is definately air coming back out the intake when I tried before work this morning with the plug back in the place and the piston creating the pressure and vacuum.  :palm:  :loco: That being said, it is also "sucking" as it should through the intake on the piston back stroke.

I`ve removed the valve block and can blow as hard as I can through the port and the valve is sealed! Yet on the engine it clearly isn`t.

Also, the fact that air is moving through the valve block, all be it the wrong way, I`m confident that the seal is good between valve block and cylinder head.

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 09, 2011, 07:58:19 AM
Chris, It is pretty strange and frustrating. I'm wondering if the blow test isn't sufficient then. I think the webster has a compression ratio of 5 or 6 to 1, so the pressure will be around 75psi+ at the top of the compression stroke, whereas you can probably only produce 1 or 2 psi with your lungs.

If the engine gives sufficient 'kick back' when you spin it past the top of the compression stroke, I think you can rule that out anyway. Following Doug's action plan would give it the best chance. Taking the o ring off (providing the kick back is still there with it off) will eliminate the possibility of it being a friction problem.

If the valves are free sliding in their guides, use the lightest spring possible on the intake valve to make sure it's opening. Make sure the exhaust spring is strong enough so that it wouldn't bounce at speed, and as others said, that it shuts before TDC prior to the inlet stroke. There's nothing more you can do then with the vapour carb. The only thing left is ignition timing, if that's set to fire around TDC on compression stroke it should work!

What was your piston made from again? If it's aluminium and it's too close, it could be binding in the cylinder. It expands a lot faster than cast iron.

Hoping you get some luck tonight.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 10:00:28 AM
Yes that is what I was thinking but the fact that I`m having it kicking back on the compression stroke, even if it is leaking a bit, then the seal still seems good enough.

Doug, I`m going to try and get an ignition timing light but they seem expensive at £40 a pop when I search the internet - I just can`t afford that!! I`ll see if I can borrow one.

Chris

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 10:04:02 AM
If you think about what that check valve is doing, it is acting as a second intake valve.  If it is binding at all it will cause no fuel to enter the engine.  Take it off and connect the tank to the block directly with some tubing and see what happens.  The vapor tank is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO forgiving, you only have to be remotely close for the engine to run.  I can put just about any flammable liquid in my tank and it will run: rubbing alcohol, denatured alcohol, gas, coleman fuel, kerosene, sterno, are some of what I have run in the webster.

The "run for 20 pops and then nothing" I do not think is going to be fuel or mechanical timing (exhaust) as they are not that sensitive.  The unknown variable here for me is the ignition.

Spin it with the plug out and inspect the spark.  Could be a grounding issue with the ignition module as you have to have two connections to the plug, one hot, one ground.  Eliminate either and it won't run. Your ignition test video shows it grounded to the ignition module itself, (does not get any better than that) make sure you have a good connection between engine and ignition module.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 10:13:43 AM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AccuSpark-H8000-Ignition-strobe-Timing-Lamp-/180660832618?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item2a1039896a

might be able to find cheaper...  any will work for what you are going to do with it...  as long as you are not making a living with it, an inexpensive one will be fine.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 10:20:03 AM
Yea Doug, I`ll explain to my wife that it is "just" £16...  :lol:

that is what I did for the £16 5L tub of fuel, £5 set of magnets, £11.95 bearing (yes could have got it cheaper but got it from a model shop!), £10 lump of brass for the fuel tank, £8 for a new set of Allan Keys, £3.95 can of lighter fuel, £30 for silver solder rods and flux, ect purchased over the last 14 days!! :palm:   Not including the materials I got at the start!

hey, I`m not complaining  :ddb: , it is my wife that is  :wack: :wack:  I`ve just text my Brother-in-law, his Dad owns a local garage so should have one it is just if he is away as he spends a lot of time on his canal boat.

CHris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 10:24:46 AM
Doug, serious point, what does the ignition light do? The only thing is that I can definately hear the spark when it jumps so will the ingition light tell me any more than this or will it just be a visual thing as well as the noise?

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 09, 2011, 10:38:59 AM
Chris you say you can hear the spark ,is it in the right place inside the cylinder or is if outside , i.e. plug cap shorting

I would, although I may be wrong but I would have though you would not be able to here the spark if its the plug firing in the cylinder

a short note but I will leave it to Doug but a timing light will tell you when to plug is firing , but its it is not the plug that is firing but a stray spark it will sill tell you its firing



Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 10:51:47 AM
The light has an inductive pickup that goes over the spark plug lead and senses when 25000 volts are traveling through the plug wire and fires the strobe light.  This tells you a few things:  the most important is that the plug is firing and the second is exactly when it is firing so you can adjust it.  Some times a coil can be weak and not have enough power to fire the plug under compression.  The light lets you know what is happening under actual engine conditions and not out in atmospheric conditions.

Chris you say you can hear the spark ,is it in the right place inside the cylinder or is if outside , i.e. plug cap shorting

I would, although I may be wrong but I would have though you would not be able to here the spark if its the plug firing in the cylinder

a short note but I will leave it to Doug but a timing light will tell you when to plug is firing , but its it is not the plug that is firing but a stray spark it will sill tell you its firing

Stuart

Good point about an external spark, but I think this would only happen if there is a short in the module or wire.  You should not be able to hear a spark with the plug installed, but should here a sharp crack with it out.  A bad ground would cause an external spark as well and lessen the good spark in the cylinder.

You can assume that the module is working correctly if you have a STRONG blue spark from the plug when it is out (like you did in the video) and it keeps going for 100-200 times.  This test will eliminate the battery issue.  You can time it by eye with the plug out by rocking the flywheel back and forth and seeing where it fires in relation to the position of the connecting rod.

The timing light is not mandatory, you can put it on the list of tools to get at some point....  it will not go to waste.

As for the wife...  Some flowers and a card on the way home to tell her how much you love her.  You can also tell her the motor is what keeps you sane in today's insane world and is cheaper than heroin and not nearly as messy socially   :med: :whip:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Bluechip on May 09, 2011, 11:04:01 AM
You could hack this thing together. Costs virtually nothing if you have a bit of Vero-board or similar.

You can see if the plug is sparking, the gap is in series with it.

It's also possible to solder a 90V wire ended neon across the gap.

Like this if Rapid actually had the things in stock.  :scratch: again .... if you took the words 'Back Order' from their vocabulary, they'd be speechless ..

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Optoelectronics/Indicators/Wire-ended-neon/29275/kw/neon

No need for the series resistor.

Dave BC
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on May 09, 2011, 12:08:35 PM
Hi Chris

Try these   http://www.abbeypowertools.co.uk/car-service-tools/car-electric-testers/showitem-8042-56495.aspx  ,, put one between plug and HT lead ,, rotate crank and it will flash
when the ignition fires ,,, you can also leave it on when running ,,,,,,,,, if the light stops flashing  when the engine is running ,you no its an ignition fault .

You can fined em in most car accessory /parts  shops  


Rob

or  http://www.abbeypowertools.co.uk/car-service-tools/car-electric-testers/showitem-5618-38898.aspx
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 12:20:07 PM
question...  did you assemble the plug boot with the little wire spring that goes around the tip of the spark plug?
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 04:42:15 PM
Hi Guys, just come up from the workshop and had some success, I post at the end but to answer some questions and make some comments....

question...  did you assemble the plug boot with the little wire spring that goes around the tip of the spark plug?

The "plug boot" was already attached to the ignition box (and wire) when it arrived and so yes it does  have the wire spring that goes around the tip and also it has the C clip which tightens the casing of the plug cap onto the plug nut outer casing for the ground. The ignition system does come with the other large plug cap in a packet so the current cm-6 would need to be removed.

Bluechip and Rob - I`m going to go for one of those even when it is setup. I think it`ll look pretty cool and it`ll show if there is a fault with the ignition system.

Chris you say you can hear the spark ,is it in the right place inside the cylinder or is if outside , i.e. plug cap shorting


I`ve just had a listen and both Doug and Stuart you mention that I shouldn`t hear the spark. I can 100% hear the spark but it is a dull click that seems to come from inside the cylinder not outside. I turned all the lights off and couldn`t see anything around the case just the spark at the tip.


Anyway, finally something to show you.  :dremel:  I just think it is still far too temperamental! There seems little consistency, you think it needs a richer mixture and it cuts out. Then you try a leaner mixture, it cuts out. Then for example, in the video below, I tried starting up after the last attempt and it was just dead!  I hope that makes sense...I don`t feel as though I can find "best" settings because there seems now pattern of how to get there.

Well, I`m getting somewhere..... at least enough for a video this time. You guys know infinately more than me, does the video indicate any obvious issues as to why it is stopping so suddenly.



 :ddb: :ddb:

I just want to thank everyone for their continued posts in helping me get this running. I know I ask a lot of questions and can be a bit of a pita but I can assure you I put in the same efforts in my time in the workshop!

Chris
 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on May 09, 2011, 04:51:14 PM
:bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :bow: :headbang: :bow: :headbang: :bow:



Big smile  :) 

Rob :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: sbwhart on May 09, 2011, 04:58:56 PM
Nice work Chris  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I always say you train an engine to run: bit like potty training a nipper, you build on sucess but have to be prepared for a few wet accidents.

You've got something to build on their, things will get better and better.

As for the abrupt stops check that nothing is comming lose or sticking.

Try different positions for the fuel tank try lifting it up a bit, so you get help from gravity, I've never built an IC so this may be just a load of tosh, but I know from other guys experiences this is the sort of things they did.

Good luck

Stew
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: j45on on May 09, 2011, 05:38:47 PM
:ddb: :nrocks: :ddb:

Nice one Chris  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Anzaniste on May 09, 2011, 05:51:03 PM
The abrupt stop suggests tp me a tightening up probably as a result of piston expansion due to ignition temperatures. edited to add Forgot ro say well done. ..distracted by watching moon landing on Yesterday.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on May 09, 2011, 06:15:06 PM
Good to see it runn  :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 09, 2011, 06:51:07 PM
Yes, cheers guys. Albeit a short quick burst, it did run!

I have a few further thoughts. The fact that it runs does suggest the the timing of exhaust and ignition is OK for now. I know I`ve just been speaking to Kwackers and I think fuel could be the problem. The engine seems to behave differently and some of my best results not caught on camera (but not massively better !!) were when I was leaning the petrol tank back and the inlet was below the fuel line like in a bubble vapour carb.

Just to add that I`ve not had any luck with the lighter gas - a squirt doesn`t seem to let the engine fire, it is just dead!

I`m wondering if the inlet valve isn`t opening as it should and especially at low revs. I think it is a bit sticky. I opened it by hand on a few attempts and that kicked it up but didn`t keep the cycle going. I also felt like in those videos you have seen that I wanted to give it a pull on the throttle to kick up the revs as it seemed to run out of steam and fall dead!

What was your piston made from again? If it's aluminium and it's too close, it could be binding in the cylinder. It expands a lot faster than cast iron.
The abrupt stop suggests tp me a tightening up probably as a result of piston expansion due to ignition temperatures.

I forgot to answer this earlier on - piston and cylinder are both cast iron so I`m guessing thermal expansion shouldn`t be a problem as they will expand at the same rate?

There is a little air leak from the edge of the valve block and head, I noticed just now when I saw some spare oil bubbling slowly. It isn`t a big leak and certainly not enough to considerably reduce compression but it may be worth putting another paper gasket on.

I`m also using this http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4838.0  Aspen's Fuel rather than colemans suggested by Jan Ridders. I`m almost naturally insulting John-Som when asking this question as he has clearly stated it is good with his Webster but could this be perhaps more difficult to combust than Coleman's especially on a young engine? Or is a fuel a fuel and either work just as well.

All the best
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 09, 2011, 10:01:16 PM
YEEEAAAAAA!

I have watched the video about 10 times and do not see anything mechanically wrong.  

Have you tried it without the check valve?  The vapor tank should be should be sloshing WAY more than that which explains why it runs for a bit, burns off the rich vapors, then nothing...  

Try some real gas...  way more aromatic, so should provide more bang...  don't know what that Aspen stuff is that you are burning now...  don't mix any oil with it, just squirt some WD-40 directly into the cylinder when it is running.

Put some more advance in the timing.  My webster loves 20 degrees advance (spark before top dead center) and runs up to 5600 rpm with a lean mixture, so yours could do this as well.

After watching the video, I now think it is a fuel issue.  Raising it will not make any difference with a vapor carb.  You should see the fuel indented a great deal each stroke, yours is barely moving which leads me to think the intake stroke is not pulling a vacuum.

1. Make sure the exhaust valve has some clearance (.010 in) between the valve and the rocker tappet when not on the exhaust stroke.
2. try some gas (petrol 87)
3. remove check valve to help with intake vacuum
4. seal ANY leaks
5. put a little piece of fuel line on the end of the tank tube so that it is below the fill level (will help agitate it)

EXCELLENT JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!  It will run smooth VERY SOON!!!!!!!!

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 10, 2011, 03:01:41 AM
good progress there Chris  keep at it




Stuart
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 10, 2011, 03:37:31 AM
Well done Chris!  :clap:

Yer in the right street......  :thumbup:

I'm sitting here with a big silly grin..... Very pleased for you!  :D

David D

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 10, 2011, 06:02:06 AM
 :( I can't see the vids at work - got to wait 6h to see it!  :lol:

Well done Chris, on the home straight now.

Your posts have inspired me to get back in the workshop. I had no motivation but I went in, all be it only for an hour, last night and got a little done on poppin no. 2. Trying to clear project back log before starting something else!

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 10, 2011, 07:11:21 AM
Nick - glad you felt like some time in the shop after seeing the build. I wouldn`t get too excited about the video`s, it only runs for a few seconds and then stops  :lol:

I also think that the problem with the engine is the fuel intake. It doesn`t seem to be getting a constant supply of fuel and is only running on a shot of a good rich mixture. The spring is very very light so I really can`t see this is the issue. I`m wondering if the valve seat is a little wide and is causing a larger pressure than ideal to open it? That being said, (very very technical) I can put my tongue on the air intake tube and the suction will pull and lock my tongue to the air intake tube - so it is sucking!

I have made sure the exhaust valve has some clearance but I`ll make a concious effort to make about 0.01" clearance rather than just guessing like I have been doing.

I did remove the check valve some time ago based on one of your earlier post. There is no ball bearing in there so although you see the "check valve" case, there actually is not valve action, it is just a way of attaching the tube to the valve block.

I`ll attempt your other advice as well.


Can you please clarify, what do you mean by:


Try some real gas...  way more aromatic, so should provide more bang... 


and

Quote
2. try some gas (petrol 87)

Petrol 87 ?? "Real Gas" ?? Are we talking about unleaded petrol here? I`m sorry, just don`t want to explode anything attempting to run it on what I would consider "gas" ...methane!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on May 10, 2011, 08:47:14 AM
Well done Mate
she's alive  :thumbup: :clap: :beer:
Pete
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 10, 2011, 09:25:36 AM

I did remove the check valve some time ago based on one of your earlier post. There is no ball bearing in there so although you see the "check valve" case, there actually is not valve action, it is just a way of attaching the tube to the valve block.

Petrol 87 ?? "Real Gas" ?? Are we talking about unleaded petrol here? I`m sorry, just don`t want to explode anything attempting to run it on what I would consider "gas" ...methane!

excellent!  glad to hear that you have some good suction!

Yes, just some gasoline like you put in the car.  Exhaust will stink a bit, but it should run pretty strong, I did that early on until I had it broken in and dialed in.  That is where you are now.

remember...  this is the fun part albeit frustrating sometimes, just listen to the machine and it will tell you all it needs...

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 10, 2011, 01:21:54 PM
Nice work Chris, it's so close. Yeah your fuel doesn't seem to be sloshing around like it does on Jan ridders' engines!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: klank on May 11, 2011, 01:12:57 PM
Very well done - I am sure you will get it purring away.
Thanks for such an interesting build.

Peter
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 11, 2011, 10:32:12 PM
is it swimming with the fishes????  did you throw it through a window?  did your wife toss it in the recycle bin??????

whats going on with it????????????????????????

:poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 12, 2011, 01:04:25 PM
Well after several tormenting hours of trying to love a seemingly dead engine, I had a visit to fellow madmodder,  Kwackers, today and brought it with me. Last night I`d had enough. It was popping and spluttering but wouldn`t start and then just before I called it a day there was a terrible binding and bumping on the crank shaft.

So this morning I got there and looking a right t1t, within 30 seconds he identified one of my bearings in the frame had died. OK OK I packed up quickly last night and so I promised him that wasn`t the issue. Then we looked at the valve block and it wasn`t holding a seal - I assured him it had been, we took the valve off and stripped it down and a piece of sh1t in the valve was holding it open - looked like a t1t for the second time - I assured him that wasn`t the issue. Anyway, we had a look at the rest of the engine and it was good just to have another set of eyes spotting any potential problems. He thought the compression was good enough without the O-ring and had concerns about the weight of the intake spring. He also went through the process of setting it all up.

So when I got home I setup as he described. Replaced the bearings that had broke and set the timing up as he said. Hurray it ran  :ddb: but for only 10 seconds or so again. It did this more concistently. So I then guessed that it wasn`t getting fuel correctly and trimmed down a bit off the spring. Put it all back together and first kick we were flying!!

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

It ran for about 1 minute and then I accidently killed it by opening the air intake and making the mix too lean.

I kicked it up again and thankfully it started (I`ve been having a problem with concistency!) and I let it run for a good 5 minutes then stopped it and let it cool down for 5 minutes.

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

I then fired it up again and watched it more closely, after 3 minutes I stopped it to adjust the ignition timing and go get my camera for the proof of running shot   :lol:

I started the engine up...

 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:


and then all of a sudden it just kept reving higher and higher, within the space of a few seconds I was so flustered that with the camera stuck in one hand I couldn`t shut it off and then crack!!!

 :lol: :doh: :lol: :doh: :lol: :doh: :lol: :doh: :lol: :doh:

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/conbroke.jpg)

The con-rod wall of the big end cracked! Not to worry at all. I think the photo clearly shows that it did run and it did run well !! (either that or I`m lieing and I cobbed it through the window and it broke!!)

So now I`m going to make another con-rod but to be honest, I`m confident it runs so I`m going to polish some parts, make a base and go for a more final assembly! So I promise.... it runs, it runs, it runs!   :ddb: :ddb:

I just need to learn how to control it! I guess the mixture needs to be more lean? Why did it just take off?

Chris  
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 12, 2011, 02:05:43 PM
Wow! Chris, a video would have been sufficient .. .you didn't need to show us it has the power to break con-rods for us to believe you  :lol:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: klank on May 12, 2011, 02:18:17 PM
Sounds like the cyl. and piston are getting used to each other, hence the more reliable running but why did the revs climbed so rapidly??
So very sorry to see the demise of the con rod, but very pleased you got it pretty well sorted otherwise.
Maybe you are on the last lap now.

Best wishes

Peter
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on May 12, 2011, 02:41:00 PM
It seams to me as you don't need to think about what to do tomorow  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 12, 2011, 03:59:54 PM
CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

things break... make sure you don't have any sharp corners and it should not break the second time.

With the vapor carb, once it is a perfect mixture it revs wide open, you can either lean it out or enrichen it to slow it back down.  The lean option is a little less sensitive but makes the motor run hotter.

now you know what you are looking for and can start to feel what the motor is asking you for.  You have done something very few people would or could do, you have created life!

Make some parts and get some video... a long one so we can see the fruits of your labor, and oh, take your wife out to dinner...  it will help!

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Doug



Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 12, 2011, 04:36:05 PM
Haha! Thanks guys, yes, it is interesting as to why the revs climbed so high and so quickly!

To be honest, I'm not surprised the con rod broke, the wall of the big end was far too thin once I'd opened it out so that the bearing could be inserted. Hopefully I'll make a new one tomorrow and get it running again!  I was quite shocked how hot it got!!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 12, 2011, 04:46:35 PM
Yeah, when you think about it, the throttle is wide open because there isn't one! I think I've seen somebody successfully added a throttle with a vapour carb to control the speed.

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on May 12, 2011, 05:08:35 PM
Hi mate
Shame about the con rod but if there was no other damage then its sweet, cos u needed a better one anyway  :thumbup:
Pete
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 12, 2011, 08:55:08 PM
I just checked out your wordpress site...  well done....

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Stilldrillin on May 13, 2011, 03:57:30 AM
Chris.
Regard the new engine as a little kid. Just bursting with enthusiasm!  :D :D :D

Really nice saga, still unfolding.......  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: srm_92000 on May 13, 2011, 05:16:01 AM
Nice one Chris :clap:

I bet your next con-rod will be a bit thicker !!!

I'm just starting a Webster build, made the first chips yesterday. I was planning on putting a butterfly valve of some sort beetween the vapour mixture control and inlet so that the mixture can be left right but the flow controlled, maybe something like that would help yours.
(And it'd help me if it works.... or doesn't  ::))
I'm goint to start my log tomorrow (as it's Friday 13th today  :zap:).
I'll be calling it a Webster-S cause I just can't help changing stuff.

Steve.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 13, 2011, 06:09:47 AM
Thanks for your replies guys. I know I came up buzzing with excitement last week when it run for a few seconds but yesterday I really felt I understood what the engines needs to look like to run, if that makes any sense. I started the new Con rod last night and was very impressed with the bush I made for the big side rather than running in bearings like before. I just need to profile the round ends and then it`ll be done!

I obviously dismantled some of it last night so I could replace the con rod and I have to say that I`m really thrilled with the cylinder and piston and how good it just is without an o-ring. It was a little stiff when I put it in at first but it seems much smoother now and with a light skim of oil there is so little friction yet an amazing seal. Whether it wears over time is a possibility but I can always put the o-ring on in future if I feel I need to.

I started the wooden base last night. It`ll sit quite high because the electronics will be in a hollow below it but that way it`ll be nice and compact.

Doug, thanks for checking out my wordpress site. I get quite a few hits on it and am in contact with a few interesting people! It isn`t an example showcase work, just a little diary of the stuff I do.

Steve, I look forward to your build! I`m not really familiar with engines and so I really wouldn`t know how a butterfly valve would work. Could you give me any more details about how this would be made to fit the vapour carb / intake?  How exactly does it work, is the air hole on the vapour carb getting a good mix and then is a butterfly valve just another valve further down the line which can add even more air to the mix? I do have the one way valve which I`m not using. The top screws out of there and I`m wondering if I could some how adapt the top piece to incorperate this valve if that is how it works.

 Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: srm_92000 on May 13, 2011, 08:45:31 AM
Chris,
I was thinking of something like Stew has just made (page 14 of his crank wall engine log).
It would be mounted after the mixture valve and before the inlet. It doesn't let in more air, just restricts the flow into the cylinder so the mixture stays about right but the engine is literally throttled and draws in less mix.
IN THEORY :smart:
I have no idea if it would work in practice, it would be best to try something rough to start, say clamping the flexible pipe to the inlet to restrict flow?

Steve.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 13, 2011, 09:25:27 AM

I'm just starting a Webster build, made the first chips yesterday. I was planning on putting a butterfly valve of some sort between the vapour mixture control and inlet so that the mixture can be left right but the flow controlled, maybe something like that would help yours.
(And it'd help me if it works.... or doesn't )

Steve.

Steve, I think you will find that having a butterfly valve between the engine and the tank will keep the tank from pulling an adequate vacuum and thus not pull in fumes.  The mixture adjustment is more than satisfactory for throttle control, just not what we have been taught about how an engine should be controlled.  The vapor carb is very forgiving, but needs to be adjusted as the volatile hydrocarbons burn off.  My first incarnation on the Webster (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4413.0) vapor carb works flawlessly and you can adjust the "throttle" from 500 rpm all the way to 5400 RPM (though I don't recommend it due to what you saw on Chris's engine...) just by adjusting the mixture.  These engines are not designed to be and cannot be run for more than 20-30 minutes straight without a cool down period, so the vapor tank is perfect.  

I believe my design of the vapor tank that I used on the Otto (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.0) is about as good and easy as it gets.  The Otto starts on the first pull every time even after the fuel has been sitting in the tank for weeks.
 
But, all that being said, the nice thing about building your own engine is that you can do whatever you want, and it it works... great... and if it does not...  you can try something else.

I look forward to seeing your take on the Webster.  Take tons of pics and videos and post frequently......

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 13, 2011, 09:37:52 AM
Chris, are you on skype??

I am douglas.vanderbilt... look me up...
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 13, 2011, 10:48:18 AM
Hi Doug, I`m not, but I`ve always fancied giving it ago, infact I did a year or so ago so I`ll reinstall over the weekend and look you up.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: srm_92000 on May 13, 2011, 12:30:22 PM
Hi Chris,
Did you read Dougs response? maybe not worth spending too much time making a butterfly valve then.

Thanks for that info Doug, Love the Otto by the way :beer: .
I'd decided to get mine running first anyway then I can play :D.

Steve.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 15, 2011, 12:39:14 PM
Hi Guys, yes, sorry missed your last post Steve, yes I have seen Dougs post and will need to think of something because I can`t control mine at all!

Clearly the money I spent at Harrogate yesterday was well worth it as only having the new equipment present in my workshop I managed to get my engine con rod built and back together again. I did say I was going to strip it for final polish and assembly but when I`d built the con rod, I just couldn`t help giving it another way.

So don`t get me wrong, I`m well chuffed, it runs, I`ve built an IC engine  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

But I don`t have any control at all over the throttle. There seems to be no "give" in the air intake position, too lean or too strong and the engine is just killed. I have had it running for many many minutes now but I`ve taken these photos to show you my problem. They are not necessarly the best examples of smooth running, just that it is working but I can`t control it.

Like I said, if I play with the air regulator on the vapour carb it just cuts it dead, the only slight control I have is if I put my finger slightly over the air intake into the vapour carb. Even then the control is so tricky that I often end up killing the engine as shown in both clips.  The engine will run for several minutes until it is too hot and I knock it off but I can`t control throttle at all.



I should stop moaning - it is running!!  :drool:  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

I think I`m going to get rid of the bearings in the main frame, they are light duty and I`ve already smashed 2 so I`ll just bush the holes. I`ve sprayed some WD40 on the valve blocks to look for leaks and there is some fizzing from the screws so I need some gasket compound here. Also, as suggested I have put a piece of tubing on the vapour carb to make it act like a bubble vapour carb. I think maybe all this splashing is causing the mix to be too strong and inconcistent, maybe it is worth taking this off.  I also got a nice piece of alluminium for a new base at Harrogate yesterday so I think the plan might be to strip down now it is at least running and have a better troubleshoot to get it running just right when it is in a state more ready to display.

So anyway, proof is in the video, I have a runner :D   They only cut out because I`m trying to slow them down and cut the air intake.

Thanks for the help of everyone and I really mean that. I wouldn`t of stood ANY chance of building this and getting it running without Madmodder.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: spuddevans on May 15, 2011, 04:38:09 PM
Well done Chris, we never doubted you'd get it going  :headbang: :clap: :headbang: :clap: :headbang:


Tim
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 16, 2011, 12:54:21 AM
Well done!!!

With my webster if I plug the intake hole the motor dies instantly, but with the Otto it runs on for another 10 seconds before choking out.  I don't really know why this is as of yet.

In working with Jan, it seems that the theory is that a mixture of 14 to 1 is best and the vapor carb gives this out a bit on the rich side so the air bypass allows you to adjust this mixture to exactly 14 to 1.  I love how the fuel is bouncing around now, that is what it should look like.  Taking off the tube will reduce this, but should make the fumes more consistent. 

From the video it looks like it is turning about 2000 RPM and that should be commended.  Try fiddling with the timing in 2-3 degree increments to see if throttle response improves.  Also, the hole in the bypass might not be big enough to lean out the mixture and with the Aspen fuel it might need a ton of air (just a thought)...

Again, very well done! Now you can study it and fine tune it until it is exactly like you want it.  Maybe you can make the carb in the drawings????? I never did and even the designer says that he had problems with it, but maybe you can be the one to perfect it!

And also, 3-in-one oil works really well is dripped into the intake valve to lubricate the cylinder (that is what I don on the Otto...)


Doug  :coffee:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on May 16, 2011, 05:30:50 AM
Nice work congratulations  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 16, 2011, 01:26:00 PM
Nice 1 Chris, I will be extremely chuffed if my first i.c. turns out as good as that.  :thumbup:

I think it might be worth a try with the butterfly valve still, am sure I've seen one working somewhere. I see what doug is saying about the vacuum, but then again, it's still pulling the same air through per revolution so it should still work I reckon.

It doesn't have to be as complex to make as a butterfly either. It could be something like the attached diagram.

Nick

Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: doubleboost on May 16, 2011, 04:37:47 PM
Very nice :bow: :bow:
A credit to your determination  :thumbup: :thumbup:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on May 16, 2011, 08:05:22 PM
nice one mate :clap:
Pete
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 16, 2011, 09:00:14 PM
Nice 1 Chris, I will be extremely chuffed if my first i.c. turns out as good as that.  :thumbup:

I think it might be worth a try with the butterfly valve still, am sure I've seen one working somewhere. I see what doug is saying about the vacuum, but then again, it's still pulling the same air through per revolution so it should still work I reckon.

It doesn't have to be as complex to make as a butterfly either. It could be something like the attached diagram.

Nick



Here's the problem...  in a "normal" carburetor you have at least two jets, a low speed and a high speed to control the mixture.  IF you restrict the airflow with the vapor carb, you would also have to adjust the mixture to enrichen it due to the lack of air volume through the tank which is needed to produce the vapors.  Once the engine is tuned and running correctly and he has his carburetor sorted, the mixture valve will control the revs very precisely.

I had planned to put a throttle screw in the Otto carb, but found out I did not need it after I got it running on it.

Doug

 
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on May 17, 2011, 04:16:56 AM
Ah right, I understand. I wasn't aware that model carbs had two jets. The only real experience I have of carbs is SU type where opening the throttle richens the mixture at the same time by moving the needle down on a cam (quite complex at small scale?) Guess the other thing a proper engine does is advance the ignition too so there are quite a few compromises in model engine designs.

NIck
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 17, 2011, 09:30:34 AM
What the little model carbs (and most of the ones you make from plans) have is a needle valve that goes down into the orifice (jet) as the throttle is closed to adjust the mixture.  We are at the mercy of fluid dynamics with the vapor carb and that, in part, is what makes it so forgiving.  

With a normal carb you change the size of the jets to change the mixture, smaller hole ==> less fuel ==> leaner mixture.  In the OS2a carb (and all of the others) there is a needle that in essence "plugs" the hole that the fuel is coming through as the barrel throttle valve is closed.
(http://pics.towerhobbies.com/image/o/osmg7016.jpg)  

This adjustment is what gives us so much hassle because those carbs are designed to run on nitro methanol (alcohol) which requires more liquid and thus the jets are larger.  So, when we put gas through them, there is too much and they either run rich at idle or rich at WOT, there is no in between.

I tried for two weeks or more to get one of the two RC carbs to work with either motor reliably, but never could on either motor.  When I discovered Jans vapor carb online, studied how it worked and made my own, it was a glorious day.  This is what mine looks like:

(http://www2.gpmd.com/image/o/osmg2440.jpg)

The mixture screw on the top is the high end and meters the maximum amount of fuel that will come through the carb and the screw on the side meters the fuel at idle by plugging the hole that the fuel is pulled through.

(http://www.oocities.org/ericperez_2000/images/carblegend1.jpg)

(http://www.oocities.org/ericperez_2000/images/carb2-needle1.jpg)

There is a really good writeup on the workings of the RC carb here: http://www.oocities.org/ericperez_2000/Carb_101.html

Worth a look.

Doug
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: lordedmond on May 17, 2011, 10:25:42 AM
the ones I used in the past were very simple ( although theses were for 95 nitro with a dash on methanol and a smidgin of castor oil )


they had a flat throttle slide with two needle jets one above and one below the flat slide , the one below was flush with the side wall of the venturi , the one above had a beak one it at 45 degrees facing downwards that was the main jet the other was the low speed jet.


the throttle slide had just a plane hole in it


you could at that time buy from the model shops replacement needle valves complete its those that I used




so the order of things from the air in  was jet with a 45 beak looking down ,throttle slide, and a jet flush with the side wall

to set up I used to close off the bottom jet open the slide and adjust the main mixture, then slowly close down the slide and open up the lower jet to get it to idle


Theory  is that the top jet with a beak would tend to richen up with increased air flow wears the bottom one would weaken


Stuart


dbvandy Doug check your email
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on May 22, 2011, 05:30:40 PM
Guys, I`m really sorry, I didn`t read these last two replies until today. I just missed them totally!! Sorry. Lots of good info. The info really helped in my understanding of how a carb works

I`ve still not had time to test anything on mine as it is currently in bits ready to be put back together on a new base. I`ve made a couple of changes. I`ve profiled the fly wheel a bit which I think looks a bit better. I`m considering painting the flywheel...I can`t make my mind up. I`ve also replaced the brass inner section of the fly wheel with a steel one, threaded it M4 and drilled right through into the crank shaft so that it won`t slip at all and is nice and solid. Not the best photo, looks quite good in person but..

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/upweb4.jpg)

paint or not?

I also had an issue with the timing of the ignition. Although it was easy enough to undo the grub screw on the magnet holder, I realised I needed a way of adjusting it whilest running. To do that I had to get rid of the base mounted sensor holder and make a bracket for the sensor that could be swung around the axis of the crank shaft. I`m sure there are many neater ways but I`ve not used my rotary table in a while so I went for this option. Basically I bushed the hole in the side frame that the crank goes through and purposely left 2mm sticking through the front side. I then turned down a large diameter of ally, drilled it 12mm the OD of the bush and then reamed it so that there was a recess in which the magnet holding disk could sit. I then mounted it on an arbour:

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/upweb1.jpg)

I then took down the thickness of the back side and milled a V in the top, this was so I could get an allan key in to tighten up the magnet holder in an approximately correct position. An arc slot was then milled through the side and a M4 hole cut into the side frame. The sensor will be fed up into the support from the bottom, the support and sensor can then be rotated (on the bush OD) during running to get the best setting. This is just a dry pose you can hopefully see the idea.
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/upweb2.jpg)

I`ve cut the new base to size, I just need to mark out. I`ve got a little more polishing and then I`m ready to put it back together again!

(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/upweb3.jpg)



Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: saw on May 22, 2011, 05:43:12 PM
Looking good, nice work. I'll hope that your'e problems is gone  :D
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on May 22, 2011, 10:23:32 PM
Good job on the design of the adjustable ignition.  This is when this gets fun...  you can stare at the engine and get mental pictures of how you can make it better and your own.

By the carbon on the piston, we can tell it is running well....  now we look forward to a fancy video it it running at your command.

Doug  :coffee:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 06, 2011, 03:55:46 PM
All this polishing and making new better parts has taken a lot longer than I expected. I had it running quite well a few weeks ago and I must admit since disassembling it and rebuilding into a polished "finished" state I`m struggling getting it running nicely but here it is on its new metal base and new wooden base that my brother in law made me. The base is hollowed out so that the electronics can sit under it. I made a little split grommit which grips the spark plug cable and I think it has turned out really great dropping down into the base plate. The adjustable ignition sensor looks nice and will hopefully work well when I get the intake working OK again. I don`t know where I`m going to put the fuel tank yet which is why it is still not in the photo. It fits at the front and at the end. It was originally to go at the end which is why there is space there. Next question is how to secure the tank down. Anyway, a quick photo to show the progress....   I must admit, I`m ready to get this finished soon and move on, I feel like I`m going around in circles

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/1cenginewebsterfinish.jpg)

Hopefully a video soon to follow!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on June 06, 2011, 05:51:40 PM
Looks fantastic Chris, the finishing touches have made it look really neat and tidy. Wooden base is impressive too, how did you do that?

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 06, 2011, 11:24:19 PM
.... and new wooden base that my brother in law made me.

Yes, I can`t take any credit for the wooden base. Thanks for the comment Nick, glad you think it looks neat and tidy that is what I was aiming for.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on June 07, 2011, 02:17:50 AM
Very nice sense of style about this engine now
well done mate
Pete
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 07, 2011, 06:51:09 AM
Thanks for the post metalmad! I`m glad you think it is looking nice. I`ve put more effort into the detail and final display appearence of this engine than I have into any of the other engines I`ve made.

Grrrrr - I`m still getting this inconcistency! It ran for a good 3-5 minutes until I choose to stop it, let it cool down and started it up 10 minutes later and  ran it again, it kicked up fine and ran again until I stopped it. I went to work and just got back now, I`ve not changed a thing and it won`t start!! It is firing and trying to tick over but it just won`t run! I`m going to lie shortly and tell you all it is running just fine because it is driving me insane and I want to start a new project!!!

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: spuddevans on June 07, 2011, 06:55:11 AM
Looking really good now Chris. It really looks the business now on the base.

I'm sure you will get the inconsistancies ironed out, just keep plugging away at it.


Tim
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 07, 2011, 07:28:21 AM
Cheers Tim - it running smooth as anything now, now problems at all  :lol: :doh:  :palm:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: arnoldb on June 07, 2011, 08:14:16 AM
Looks great Chris  :thumbup:  :clap: :clap:

The hardest part of building an engine is always the last bit when putting a final finish to the parts - that's why I've switched to trying to finish all the parts as well as I can while making them.   Overall a build then lasts a bit longer before one gets to see it run, but it's a quick job to do the final finish and assembly  :thumbup: 

Regards, Arnold
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on June 07, 2011, 09:25:36 AM
Oh.. I remember when... it was just a little pile of unfinished parts... gears not hobbed...  pistons not grooved...  ignition not made by a 12 year old Chinese girl...  You have come a long way!!! :headbang:

Looks very nice...  Once it is straightened out, you can put it on your mantle so when your friends come over and ask you "what do you do with it?" you can answer...  "Show it to you... and no, I am not going to hook it up to anything..."

Doug :coffee:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: kwackers on June 07, 2011, 01:40:58 PM
.  ignition not made by a 12 year old Chinese girl... 

Didn't realise you two had met!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Rob.Wilson on June 07, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: nice one Chris  :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Looks great on that base  :thumbup:


Rob
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 07, 2011, 04:14:27 PM
.  ignition not made by a 12 year old Chinese girl... 

Didn't realise you two had met!


Ho ho ho, Kwackers. Hope all is well, not spoke to you in a while as I`ve been on hols. I bet it has been heaven without the constant mithering ;-)


Rob - cheers. Glad you thinking it is looking better.



Just a quick update, I have extended the intake line again as Stew posted many pages ago and this seems to make things miles better! I know this seems stupid, but I think I`ve been flooding the engine with too reach a mix. I`ve also reverted back to the intended use of the vapour carb. Back when I couldn`t get the engine running and I thought it was a fuel intake problem I extended the inflow pipe to pull in fuel below the fuel line like Jan Ridders original bubble carb. I`ve not reverted back so the inlet is just blowing over the top of the fuel and disturbing it rather than bubbling through it. I can only presume this has again reduced the richness of the mixture and has also enhanced the performance of the engine and makes it much easier to control via the air/fuel mix nut (remember I was having problems with this not doing anything). The engine seems less fussy now about the perfect position of the air/fuel nut and more reliable. I think perhaps a few more nights of playing, polishing and it should be running better. Fingers crossed.

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: dbvandy on June 07, 2011, 10:26:30 PM

I've not reverted back so the inlet is just blowing over the top of the fuel and disturbing it rather than bubbling through it.

Chris

This is why in new revisions of Jans carbs, and my redesign for the Otto, the intake comes out of the top of the tank instead of the side.  You can eliminate most of the sucking of raw fuel into the engine by filling the tank below half full... 

Doug  :coffee:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on June 09, 2011, 03:45:06 PM
video  :poke:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 09, 2011, 04:18:20 PM
Haha, yes, no lie, I smashed my camera on the last day of my holiday so I`ve borrowed my dads old Nikon D50 DSLR, it seriously doesn`t have a video function!

It isn`t perfect, adjustment is still tricky but it does throttle up and down. I showed it my Grandad yesterday and it kicked up first time  :ddb: :ddb:

I must admit, I`ve put it on the mantle piece now, waiting for the name plate to arrive. I will get a camera ASAP to take a video!   

Anyway, must stop typing, I`m mid way through my first evening on my next project  :ddb:

Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: metalmad on June 09, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
Hi Chris
Will be watching mate
good on ya  :wave:
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on June 12, 2013, 09:49:11 AM
Chris,

Was just having a look back through your build - don't suppose you can remember how you set the ignition timing? i.e. how many degrees before top dead centre?
As you've probably seen over on MEM, Jo is using a similar system (may be the same one) on her R&B gas engine but there is some debate on where these CDI things need timing due to some in-built advance or retard.

Cheers,

Nick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 16, 2013, 04:37:19 PM
Bloody hell, this is a thread from the past! NickG I don't get on here much so sorry for the late reply. Sadly I can't help. There wasnt much science with me... I just kept adjusting it until it "went" reliably!
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on June 16, 2013, 04:43:18 PM
Haha, no worries I just vaguely remembered you used a CDi ignition system so searched for the thread! did you use a drill to start or just flick it over by hand? I am still yet to make an I.c engine - one day soon hopefully!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on June 18, 2013, 04:39:59 PM
Hi Nick, I most definitely have to use a drill! It won't kick up by hand or using a string to pull it.... A drill is the only way I can get it running!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: NickG on June 18, 2013, 05:05:00 PM
Cheers, I think that is possible a result of the CDi - maybe!
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: pat_pending on November 14, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
Following on from the last pictures ...

I turned the OD of fuel tank / vapour carb down to make a nice looking brass cup :D
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap1.jpg)

The top air intake is two piece. An M10 tapped insert soldered into place to allow filling of the tank and then a screwed insert for the air intake reducing the air intake to an 3mm hole tube. The shoulder of the insert is contoured on the shoulder to allow it to sit nicely on the tank. I couldn`t for the life of me think how to do this and so a friend and fellow madmodder suggested a two piece design, where a washer is used as part of the shoulder and the washer filed and sanded to shape. This worked really well but I would be interested to know how this could be made from 1 piece as per the plans
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap2.jpg)

The fuel/vapour outlet tube was then made...not the best photo but all the parts here are ready for soldering..
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap3.jpg)

My sophisticated soldering setup...the cooker top.
(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap4.jpg)

And then all polished up... I`m really pleased with it! I just need to make the main air intake insert and the nut which covers the additional air intake on the threaded outlet, glue on the glass viewing window and put it on a stand and then I`m done. Getting there...! 

(http://raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/janvap5.jpg)


I believe I`ll need a one way valve as a must as well, so they will be the next things to make.

Hi all, appreciate this is a really old thread so apologies if this is against protocol. Really tearing my hair out finding a source of glass disks to use as sight glass for my vapour carb. I am tempted to get a diamond hole saw and try cutting out of a sheet of glass. My track record with glass cutting has been less than stellar! also, any tips on what glue to use? If anyone could point me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Patrick
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: Joules on November 14, 2017, 03:09:52 PM
You can also try copper pipe and carborundum.  Itís a tad more friendly on the glass.  Keep the carborundum in solution so it can wear the glass, oil parrafin etc.
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: raynerd on December 13, 2017, 04:45:06 PM
Hi, sorry I didn't see this to reply. Probably too late now but the glass is a chemistry watch glass. They are nice and thick and can be purchased in a variety of sizes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DUTSCHER-001758B-Watch-glass-Pack/dp/B019839J10/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1513201369&sr=8-2&keywords=Chemistry+watch+glass

If you let me know what diameter would be good, I may be able to source one for you.
Chris
Title: Re: Webster IC Engine build log.
Post by: pat_pending on December 29, 2017, 07:34:54 AM
Hi Chris, thanks for the reply. I knew they existed! Just couldn't find the right search term. I ended up making my own after robbing the sheet of glass from a family portrait (priorities you see). This turned out to be a pain but happy with the end result. Im trying to get my Webster build log up in the gallery now so hope this sheds some light on my procedure. P