Author Topic: filing machine  (Read 30567 times)

Offline madjackghengis

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filing machine
« on: January 23, 2011, 11:30:00 AM »
Hi all, there was some interest in the die filer I showed in use, and so I took some pictures to display it better.  The die filer is a kit build from Metal Lathe Accessories, which is still listed on the internet with a good many quality bits of tooling.  I bought a cross slide casting so I could mill on my lathe, before I got a mill, then a dial indicator holder, a quick retract threading tool post, and about a half a dozen other bits and pieces, all of which are top quality iron castings, among the best I've ever machined, no blow holes or pockets, and very fine grain structure, and very well designed, written up instructions for what ever level of machining you've reached, and useful, with easy access to help if needed.
   The die filer was a present to myself, and it does a great job of profiling parts putting angles on edges evenly, and since it cuts rather fast, with very little pressure, files last a long time.  It takes files designed to cut on the pull stroke, however if such are difficult to find, one can easily grind a regular file down to fit in the spindle end, and they work fine too.



The basic machine, about thirty pounds, mostly cast iron with the main casting well made with plenty of room inside for the operating parts



The pulley side, a nice heavy cast iron pulley does a good job as a flywheel 1/4 hp motor is more than enough



side view of the machine, showing relative locations of the main shaft, pulley and main housing



a look under the table, never been cleaned off since it first filed, no scoring on the file shaft



another view of the machine



with the table off, you can see the "top hat" which sheds most of the filings away from the shaft, turned out of stainless scrap it holds the allen screw which holds the files in place



under the top hat, lots of filings built up, no problems



filings brushed away showing the bronze cap with a felt washer underneath, keeping out stray filings, works very well at keeping the shaft clean



with the table tilted you see the end cover where all the working parts are accessed



another end view.  Inside, the crankshaft is .750 with a cut away wheel with a .250 pin at .500 radius from the center.  Facing it, a block of cast iron, with a half in reamed hole vertical, for the main filing shaft, which runs in a bronze bushing above the block and into a bushing below as well, in a blind hole.  A half in wide, quarter in deep slot runs sideways across the face of the iron block with a bronze block half by quarter by one in long with a .250 reamed hole in the middle for the crank pin to fit, so it moves the filing shank up and down, while sliding the bronze block back and forth in its slot.  the filing shank has a hole drilled in it from the bottom, with a cross hole intersecting it right about where the crank meets the iron block, the blind bushing hole is open to the oil, which is pressure fed up by the downward movement of the filing shank, and oil squirts out the cross hole, aimed at the crankpin, and oiling the scotch yoke with fresh oil every stroke.
     The main shaft runs in bronze bushings pressed in the bored body of the machine, and reamed in place, with a shaft seal to keep the oil from leaking out onto the pulley.  The table is about eight inches in dia, about half in thick cross section, with a sturdy edge about an inch wide and half an inch deep.  The table supports are half in by in bar stock with three eighths in bolts allowing tilting and adjusting the table for optimal file position.
     I've used it well for more than ten years, never got to cleaning it up after testing it, so it didn't get paint, and it got its first bit of cleaning as I brushed away the filings to show the cover plate for the felt washer.  The main shaft is a piece of scrap shafting, the file shank is a distributor shaft from a Chevy engine, with all the hard to find parts coming with the kit.  It's most useful work is filing and profiling in pierced work, where only a die grinder could get in, but it has better control, while removing less meat per minute, and giving a better finish, and easier to straighten out a crooked line.  It does a great job cleaning up the spokes of a flywheel, or filing off the casting lines on a cast section, as well as doing quick work with sheet metal piercings, working very well with very fine files for removing cutting marks left behind.  It goes for about eighty or ninety dollars plus shipping, but I feel it is well worth the money.  I'd have opened it up and shown the workings, but then I'd have to wash it all out, take it all apart, and replace the main shaft seal.  It could hardly be simpler, yet is very effective for what it does best, one of my better deals in tooling, worth every penny.  Cheerio, mad jack

Offline Powder Keg

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 12:02:33 PM »
Man! I have just about talked myself out of getting a die filer and you come along....
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline raynerd

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 01:48:02 PM »
Madjack - nice post. I`m sure it is John who has one of these as well and I have always fancied one since seeing his. It is a pitty Metal Lathe Accessories is in the US, postage I guess would be restrictive. I think hemingway over here in the UK do one but I think it is a lathe add on rather than a self motorised machine. Nice post.

Chris

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 01:55:54 PM »
Mad jack

Thanks for posting that looks like a very satisfieing project 

Gerhard
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Channel Islands

Offline Sorekiwi

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 02:29:40 PM »
Thats a very nice machine!

I've looked at their kits before and they have some useful castings there.  The one I'm really tempted to buy the drawings of is the "Boring and Facing Head" that they do.  Its too large for my mill or lathe, but I'm thinking (hoping??) it might be able to be scaled down a bit.

Thanks for posting those pics!
Mike, expat Kiwi in NE Ohio, USA

Offline mhh

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 02:52:46 PM »
Really nice an very practical machine, I've been considering making one of my own but... where is the time! hehe
Where do you get the files from?

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 05:09:53 PM »
Actually, the files are now very rarely available, as far as I know, there are only two manufacturers in the world still making them. You can shape up normal files, because a die file cuts on the downstroke, so you have to modify them opposite to the tang end, so the machine can hold them, but the major problem, most have a tapered shape rather than the required parallel. Round are usually no problem as you can get chainsaw files that are parallel, unfortunately in a limited size range.

This post of mine might help if anyone still wants to obtain some of these rare and obscure items.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10644.0


Bogs
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 05:11:41 PM by bogstandard »
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Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 07:36:48 AM »
I have a die filer which works on the up-stroke and uses normal files. It has a leaky seal on the bottom of the ram which I need to get around to fixing because it leaks oil slowly each time I fill it. It also likes to hop around a but so needs fitting to a sturdy pedestal.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 11:54:15 AM »
Hi John, Pete, Gerhard and all, I wanted a die filer ever since I first used one, realising nothing does what it does as well.  I bought a kit because the cost was reasonable, and well made.  I looked at several versions which were designed to run in a lathe, but I definitely don't want filings anywhere on my lathe bed, so they were never even a possibility.  Pete, I'm not certain, but I suspect your filer is supposed to file on the pull stroke, and would do much less jumping.  The key would be putting the files in upside down, and for any die filer, regular files can be ground on the not tang end, to fit in the filer, and cut off the tang, and then they file on the down stroke.
     I think if I wanted a die filer and couldn't afford one, I'd take a look at a larger two stroke engine, one with a removable cylinder, use the crank, make a spigot bottomed bushing holder for the file holder to fit the cylinder studs, outfit it with a bushing on the bottom end as well, and fabricate a scotch yoke mechanism to drive the filing shaft.  If there is interest in something like that, I would be happy to take a look at my scrap heap, find some parts that look like they ought to be a filer, and see about building one with a build log, and essentially duplicate what is a very effective and good working machine mine is.  I've got a friend or two I could build one for as a present, so I wouldn't end up with an extry one, and that would probably be better than just tossing out an idea, given I know what's inside mine, but don't want to clean everything up so I can open it to show.  Mine has only the seal on the crank shaft, the felt under the bronze cap on the file shaft, and the cover gasket to leak, I think I'd work on making it impossible to leak on the ram, if that's possible, I hate having to stop work on projects to fix machines I'm using on the projects.  I inherited a handful of die files before I had the filer, because the guy who gave them to me said they were made backwards, so I have files of many sorts, but mostly use either rectangular files or round files, except when there is a tight corner which requires a triangular file.  Not to take away anything from John, but most of my work is done with round files and pillar files will modify fairly easily to provide non-tapered squaring files.  The files do last four or five times as long as a hand file generally so obtaining them is less of an issue than it first appeared for me.  I've put a file in to file on the upstroke, and was not at all impressed with the way it worked for me.  I was trying to get somewhere I couldn't get with the work on the table, and the file did more pushing up than filing.  I hope this helped out some, and the offer stands good.  Thanks for all the notice and commentary, I can't say enough good things about my experience with die filers.  :headbang: mad jack

Rob.Wilson

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 12:50:06 PM »
Hi Jack

Cracking bit of kit ,, looks very robust  :D


A die filer is on my wish list ,,,,,,,,,, no luck so far  :(  ,,,,,,,,,,,,, looks like i will have to make one some day  :dremel:


Rob

Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 01:48:39 PM »
Pete, I'm not certain, but I suspect your filer is supposed to file on the pull stroke, and would do much less jumping.  The key would be putting the files in upside down, and for any die filer, regular files can be ground on the not tang end, to fit in the filer, and cut off the tang, and then they file on the down stroke.

Mine jumps about when switched on whether it has a file or not - it's just poorly balanced!

There is an adjustable stay that holds down the work to stop it lifting, but I see no reason why it would not work in either push or pull. I'll take some pics of it, I only ever found one reference online and it was pretty obscure at that.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 03:29:59 PM »
Tell you what Pete, if the one I have jumped about, it would destroy my shop. It weighs well over 1 cwt.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=864.0

Just a bit more on the files. The reason I went for the 'real things' is because the small ones are made to get right into every tiny corner, just like swiss files can do, but they are much more robust. To modify normal files to do the same thing would not only cost me more, but take up my precious machining time. I also bought some of the very large ones, because my machine can take them as they are, and it was one of those, a half round one, that I used in the opening post of the flame licker I am building. It just swept away the flash off the flywheel as though it wasn't there, in fact I had to be careful I didn't take too much off.

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Parallel-Machine-Files/2215.html?id=TzmenX8s


John
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Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 04:54:10 PM »
Mine weighs at least half a cwt, but now you've got me onto the idea I'm going to head off to the workpit and drag the bits out I've stripped it down into and set to work re-conditioning it. I doubt I'll use it much but I bet it comes in handy when I need it. I'll put up a couple of pics sometime.

Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 06:48:21 PM »
This is what I have. Apart from the leak it all works. Only identification is the plate which might be only the distributor. I haven't found much at all about it online.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 10:06:34 PM »
Hi Pete, that's a good looking filing machine you've got there.  I'd say it's definitely worth cleaning up and stopping the leak, and I seem to remember making sure the counter weight in mine was good and heavy, because the casting for the slide block is pretty heavy.  I got it pretty well balanced without putting a lot of effort into it, but what ever mechanism is used inside to covert rotary to oscillating motion must be offset with counter weight or its bound to dance about.  I've had a couple of machines the builders didn't think much about balancing. :headbang: mad jack

Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2011, 11:21:47 PM »
The guys on Practicalmachinist have identified it as a Harvey Buterfly, and I even found some literature on it there too.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 02:22:31 AM »
Pete,

Except for a few minor details, I would say that yours is the same as my one, or at least they used the same major castings.

I made the mistake of putting it onto a kitchen cabinet base (as in the shots in the link above), and it did vibrate some, but now it is sitting on a very rigid metal bench, it is as smooth as silk, without bolting down, in fact there are no bolt down areas on it, it is designed to be self standing.

A die filer is one of those machines that you never thought you would ever use until you have actually used one. Then you realise just how useful they really are if you have the correct file shapes, it is also especially noticeable as you get more old and knackered, when filing of big bits becomes a physical no-no.


Bogs
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Offline trevoratxtal

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 03:18:48 AM »
Hello Pete
Ref your machine with William Urquhart label.
I have a milling machine with copy of the same label.
I have tried hard to get more information on the firm of tool merchants, but so far no luck.
If I find any think I will let you know.
Trevor B
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 03:24:29 AM by trevoratxtal »

MrFluffy

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 03:24:51 AM »
Every time I see these pictures of a die filer, I always think how useful one would be to me, but have never come across one to follow me home yet whatever the condition. Pete I think that one will serve you well once youve given it the usual fettling treatment and its very nice.

I wonder if a ghetto but workable one could be fabricated from a small (ride on lawnmower sized) vertical ic engine, or even a compressor, with the piston assembly replaced by a more suitable file holding assembly. And a table on top to form the work area.
There is a question mark over the suitability of the diecast alloy crankcase, although it is designed to take a large downward force from the combustion explosion, and they are already fitted with flywheels. I will get around to testing my theory one day soon but is there any obvious reason why not?
Also how do the real units ensure they cut on the downward stroke? is it the orientation of the teeth on the file itself, or does it have some sort of rocking motion to move away from the workpiece on the backstroke?

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 04:39:09 AM »
It is the teeth on the file itself. They go the opposite way to a normal file.
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

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Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 07:31:32 AM »
Hello Pete
Ref your machine with William Urquhart label.
I have a milling machine with copy of the same label.
I have tried hard to get more information on the firm of tool merchants, but so far no luck.
If I find any think I will let you know.
Trevor B

You had the same result as me then. Were you trying to identify the machine itself or just find out about the dealer?

Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 07:57:38 AM »
I made a pdf from the scans I found on PM.

Harvey Butterfly instructions and parts list[/QUOTE]


Mine actually does have the single hole for bolting it down to a bench Bogs. I guess I better start looking out for some proper files for it :)

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 01:33:14 PM »
Pete,

I spent weeks searching for new die files, and it wasn't until someone gave me a lead that I followed up on that I got to the ones I have already shown.

If you want new ones, those are very reasonably priced.

Bogs
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Offline Pete.

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 02:37:04 PM »
Thanks John!

I just realised I've completely hi-jacked madjackhengis's thread - I'm really sorry about that Jack :(

Offline krv3000

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Re: filing machine
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 06:09:41 AM »
a brill post  :D